Opening.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Yeah this needs a trope transplant or expansion.
In the Blood is the preexisting term for traits that run in the family, many many times unintentionally to the point they have never met the other family members.
Not sure if just being in a family of evil needs a specific subtrope.
edited 18th Jan '17 2:12:11 AM by Memers
We have Shared Family Quirks for similar behaviour and tics between family members. Then there's It Runs in the Family when all of them are CloudCuckooLanders. Interestingly, our very own Heroic Lineage page misuses this for what it's commonly thought of:
"Got a good Ancestral Weapon? Got a cherished family recipe for whoop-ass? There's only one thing to make this heroic picture complete: at least one sword-wielding, name-taking hero in your family tree. Maybe more. No wonder you've got a thing about saving people — it's In the Blood."
In the Blood needs to be a big encompassing supertrope, given the term's everyday usage. Also that pic needs to go, but off-topic.
edited 18th Jan '17 5:01:28 AM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Hmm, I dunno. On one hand, making In the Blood a more general supertrope is a good idea. On the other, I'm not sure whether (1) "specific traits shared In the Blood" (like being a Cloud Cuckoolander or being evil) really merit subtropes, and (2) inheriting morality is the same as inheriting other traits.
There's also Lamarck Was Right for inheriting abilities and powers, btw.
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
In the Blood becoming a Super-Trope sounds like a great idea. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
So are we on to a conclusion?
I haven't heard a vote against.
I'm another vote to turn it into a supertrope, just to be clear.
The Unknown
Supertrope it.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Question: would "evil/bad traits being shared in the family" worth a subtrope or not?
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
I don't think it is, most examples are not even really removing the nurture aspect out of the equation now that I look at them too.
Clock is ticking.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Would a "single proposition" crowner work, then?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Agree
But if the "inherited evil" definition is not a valid subtrope, then we wouldn't need to be transplanting this page into a Supertrope. Simply broaden the definition to include those other traits.
"But if the "inherited evil" definition is not a valid subtrope, then we wouldn't need to be transplanting this page into a Supertrope. Simply broaden the definition to include those other traits."
I think "inherited evil" is a trope, but I'm afraid if other tropes like Shared Family Quirks or Turned Out Like His Father covered it.
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
Personally I think this should be more general but remove the nurture elements of the trope, they have to be raised away from their parents but still turned out that way.
Like Luke was the hero Jedi the same way as his father but raised specifically to try to NOT be that by his uncle, it still happened anyway.
Blapper of Water
There's a lot of tropes here, so maybe before figuring out whether In the Blood should be made into a generic supertrope, we should maybe talk more about these trope relationships.
I'm not trying to define In the Blood based off these other descriptions, but I am trying to figure out their relationships to one another.
- Lamarck Was Right seems to be essentially about inheriting powers that aren't genetic. It lists In the Blood as "the morality version" of LWR, which is apparently incorrect if ITB is actually about evilness being inherited rather than evil superpowers.
- Like Father, Like Son is... not exactly defined at length. I think it's about children inheriting characteristics from their parents, and this inheritance being a plot point. Lists In the Blood as a subtrope.
- It Runs in the Family is when most, if not all, of a family is crazy or eccentric. It lists In the Blood as "the darker version" of IRITF, implying that ITB is when most of the family is evil — which I think is plain incorrect given other comments in this discussion.
- IRITF also lists Heroic Lineage as being "the heroic version" of IRITF.
- Heroic Lineage is just confused. The laconic page straight up implies that In the Blood has nothing to do with being evil but being Lamarck Was Right (but "the morality version").
- Shared Family Quirks is about quirks, not morals or careers or powers. The quirk is inherited, which makes it a subtrope of Like Father, Like Son. I think it's related to It Runs in the Family only in the sense that these are more lighthearted. I don't think SFQ actually relates to In the Blood (or Heroic Lineage) at all.
It doesn’t look like there’s rampant misuse of In the Blood (it’s middling), so I’m more inclined to vote down making In the Blood the supertrope. I think Like Father, Like Son already covers — if poorly — the trope of “child inherits non-genetic trait.”
edited 13th Mar '17 9:27:26 PM by WaterBlap
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
You mean a conflict of Nature vs. Nurture?
Then that means a more general supertrope is needed.
Blapper of Water
I kind of wrote a lot. Are you referring to the last sentence? I don't see how already having Like Father, Like Son means that we need a more-more general supertrope. Shouldn't we just fix the pages that we already have?
Oh, I see. Like Father, Like Son is the supertrope then?
As I understand it Heroic Lineage is about, well, a family of heroes that spans generations.
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
So from what we're seeing, I have a loose proposal of how to fix things. We rename In the Blood into a name that is more explicitly about evil morality being passed down through generations (retaining the current description and definition), re-wick the examples on work pages that concern evil morality to this new name, redirect the phrase In the Blood to the Super-Trope of Like Father, Like Son, and move general examples of inheritance on the current In The Blood page to another page dealing with general inheritance of non-genetic traits (or boil them down to specific examples and put them on specific fitting pages). This way, we still have a page about evil morality being inherited (which is actually used on some pages) and the general phrase of In the Blood now points to a general Super-Trope that deals with all kinds of inheritances of non-genetic traits (since many people use the phrase for general inheritance of non-genetic traits).
(This is definitely not the final proposal, there are still many problems with details that need to be ironed out)
edited 18th Mar '17 9:46:59 AM by Wuz
Bumping. We need to get to some sort of actionable plan and put it to action.
No longer a forum herald
Me bump, you no thump.
I'm not in favor for Like Father, Like Son being a supertrope. The name is too specific, since it implies a parent-child dynamic that may not be present. While it's less common to deal with inherited abilities that skip generations or don't pass directly down, they still show up from time to time, and the supertrope needs to be able to deal with them and catch wicks accordingly. (The immediate example I thought of was from Young Wizards, where wizardry runs in Nita's paternal family - but it skipped her father.) Also, there is Like Father, Unlike Son, which is its own thing (and kind of doesn't work with the oppositely named trope being the supertrope), for similar reasons.
I know it involves more work with shuffling things around, but really, In the Blood is the best bet for a supertrope page - not merely as a redirect to it.
Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
So what we're proposing is:
- In the Blood's name = supertrope for family-inherited traits
- In Theblood's description = "Villainous Heritage"?
BTW, in Like Father, Like Son it's not just the genetics that matters there but also parental nurture.
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
First time performing a serious proposal on this site. Apologies for any inconveniences.
In the Blood, described as a trope about evilness passing down through generations, is regularly misused as a general-purpose trope for properties that were passed down through generations, presumably due to the name not indicating that it is specific to evilness.
Wick check:
Final statistics:
edited 18th Jan '17 4:57:00 AM by Wuz