To-do list:
- Disambiguate Has Two Mommies between Platonic Co-Parenting, Non-Heteronormative Society, Two-Donor Clone, and Homosexual Reproduction. Wicks are here
I was initially concerned with Has Two Mommies being the People Sit on Chairs "has gay parents". According to Has Two Mommies And A Wick Check, it's not actually misused. The usage is much in line with the description's "two same-sex people who can reasonably claim to be a parent raising a child":
Whatever the reason, it's all the same: A family unit that cheerfully ignores the traditional view of a family requiring a father and mother, by having two (or more!) parents, parental figures, or Parental Substitutes of the same sex.
However, my issue is not with the usage (note how there's no misuse folder). It's with the scope, which I think is much too broad to be meaningful. Examples of "two mommies" from the wick check include:
- Gay parents
- A bio parent and a foster parent, whether or not bio parent was involved in the "raising" — see below about the casual name
- A magical clone (Two-Donor Clone)
- Two people who build a lifeform together
- Raised by siblings (Platonic Co-Parenting, see below)
- Homosexual Reproduction
Further, most of the usage (almost 50%) is "has gay parents", which is People Sit on Chairs. I think this is due to the sentence-friendly name ("Alice Has Two Mommies"), ignoring the unconventional family requirement. It is certainly not as common as "has straight parents" and was once much more notable in fiction than it is now (as the Malcolm in the Middle Values Resonance example cheerfully explains) but much like Bi The Way and tropes like it, is not tropeworthy by itself. In addition, being a gay couple with a kid isn't a guarantee that it's unconventional within the story, since we have Non-Heteronormative Society and settings where Homosexual Reproduction is the norm.
The linked Trope Talk discussions suggested a rename to something like Unconventional Family Structure and a tightening to focus on that. Since then, I realized that the existing trope Platonic Co-Parenting is actually broader than I thought it was, it's just not restrained to same-sex coparents:
so I think that could actually subsume most of the "family unit raised by non-romantically-involved parent figures" usage. Most of the others could be moved to Non-Heteronormative Society, Two-Donor Clone, or Homosexual Reproduction, with any other subtropes (e.g. a clash between foster and biological parents) saved for TLP.
Wick check:
Spun off from the LGBT tropes threadA wick check to see if Has Two Mommies is really just the chairsy "has gay parents".
- AscendedMeme.Anime And Manga: In the third season of Kyo Kara Maoh, Greta names her pet bearbee Yuuram, after her adoptive daddies. It's the fandom's Portmanteau Couple Name for Yuuri and Wolfram.
- Characters.After The Jungle Series: She's the (adopted) daughter of a same-sex male couple.
- Characters.Brandon Rogers: His biological mother is Kathlene and was raised by her and his other mom Darlene.
- Characters.Dangerously Chloe: Offhandedly mentions her "moms," which may be a part of why she is so insistent on identifying as a lesbian. Characterization
- Characters.Hololive Minor Characters (Bodyguard Crush entry): Initially remarks that she's Just Friends with Madam Hoshiette, whom she often employs as a bodyguard, but leans towards this this when she suggests that she marries her gen-mate to give the chat two mommies, even calling Hoshiette "my beloved"...
- Film.Chaos Walking 2021: Gender-inverted: After his mother died when he was a baby, Todd was raised by two men, Ben and Cillian (who are a couple), and regards them both as his fathers.
- Characters.Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Fate Testarossa: She also co-adopts Vivio alongside Nanoha, and the three are shown to be living happily together as the Takamachi family.
- Characters.The Dummys Dummy: She was adopted by a nice lesbian couple after her grandfather died.
- Film.Harold And Kumar Go To White Castle (Black Is Bigger in Bed entry):
Tarik: Look at me. I'm fat, black, can't dance, and I have two gay fathers. People have been messin' with me my whole life.
- Film.Princess Cyd: Ridley, who is being raised by his mother and stepmother, her wife. He was born to his mother's previous marriage with his father, before she came out as a lesbian.
- Film.Sleepaway Camp: Angela's dad's boyfriend didn't get custody after the accident. Seems like there's additional significance to a custody argument, but the example doesn't elaborate.
- Main.Adaptational Sexuality (The Babysitters Club 2020 entry): Charlotte Johanssen has a mother and father in the books, making them a heterosexual married couple. In the Netflix series, Charlotte Has Two Mommies, making the original Dr. Johanssen at least no longer straight.
- Main.Incest Subtext: The Touhou Project doujin At Chirei portrays the main characters as a family, with sisters Satori and Koishi as the parents and Orin and Okuu as the children. Koishi closing her third eye and going to explore the surface is treated very much like a divorce, with the confused children caught in between, and twice Yuugi comforts a distraught Satori with what sounds very similar to relationship advice.
- Main.Some Of My Best Friends Are X (Modern Family example): An episode has Lily believe she is gay, operating under the same logic that the child of Italian parents is Italian. Mitchell told her she isn't, right as a lesbian couple walks by.
Mitchell: Oh please, we have tons of lesbian friends.
Cameron: Odd that you would reference our friends, and not us. - Main.Values Resonance (Malcolm in the Middle entry): In one episode, Hal casually mentions that one of the family's cousins has two dads, which nobody seems to regard as unusual or noteworthy, besides Reese who says that their house must be a "dude's paradise". Additionally, Francis' classmate and friend Eric is shown to have two dads which is also treated as unremarkable. The show was broadcast at the Turn of the Millennium, when gay marriage/adoption was illegal in many states and queer people were considered Acceptable Targets in most pop culture.
- MistakenForGay.Live Action TV: In another episode, when Robin is trying to sell Barney's apartment, Ted and Marshall come in together (to pretend to be prospective buyers to drum up interest) with baby Marvin. One of the women looking at the apartment misinterprets and assumes he's their son. Couple assumption
- OneTrueThreesome.Western Animation (Steven Universe entry): Naturally there's lots of Garnet/Pearl/Amethyst, aka Steven's three mothers. Fics set when Rose was still alive usually adds her to the tangle as well. They even have a Fan Nickname of "Polygems".
- Series.The Mighty Ducks Game Changers: Nick mentions during the team's introductions to each other that he has two moms. Sure enough, Sherry and Paula show up to the Hockey Mom skills competition.
- Series.Under The Dome: A pair of lesbian mothers were driving their daughter to a "summer camp" when the dome hit. As of episode 7, Norrie has only one Mommy. Then Carolyn died in season 3, episode 8.
- ShipToShipCombat.Video Games (Soul Series entry): Taki and her best friend Chie even become maternal figures to her apprentice Natsu, one of the playable fighters in V, suggesting a Has Two Mommies kind of dynamic. Since this is about shipping I am assuming this refers to lesbians
- VideoGame.Kitty Powers Matchmaker: This is the best possible ending for a couple after you've matched them, even for same-gender couples.
- Webcomic.Split Screen: Jan and her sister were raised by their mother and her lesbian lover. It's the latter's funeral that brings Jan back home.
- WebVideo.Dan And Phil GAMES: Has Two Mommies: Gender-inversion. Dan and Phil decide that Amanda from their Dream Daddy playthrough grew up with two dads, although one of them is dead.
- YMMV.Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure Battle Tendency: Depicting the Pillar Men as a family, with Wamuu and Santana as Kars and Esidisi's adopted sons
- Anime.Mobile Suit Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans: Akatsuki, the son of Mikazuki and Atra, is peacefully raised by the latter and Kudelia in the epilogue. That of course is, because his father died before the child was born.
- Characters.Son Of The Sannin Konohagakure: He considers himself to have three parents: Zabuza and his foster parents Hayate and Yūgao.
- Characters.The Dragon And The Butterfly Saga: By the end of the first fic, Hiccup has since excepted both his birth-parents (Stoick and Valka) and the parents from his Family of Choice (Agustin and Julieta).
Manny: That's your mom, right? I thought Tia Juli was your mom?
Hiccup: You can have more than one mom or dad! - HoYay.Pretty Cure: Mirai and Riko are raising a baby fairy, Haa-chan together as of episode 5. Later episodes would lampshade this... Assuming this isn't misuse of Ho Yay, then it's not romantic.
- Lost.Tropes F To J: A heterosexual example, after the end Aaron ends up with both Kate and Claire raising him. It's implied neither loved again due to their true loves dying years before they did.
- VideoGame.Danganronpa Another Episode Ultra Despair Girls (Abusive Parents entry): The reason that Toko Has Two Mommies is explained as two women who raised Toko each believed that Toko was the other's child, and wanted nothing to do with her. Toko even comments that they used to lock Toko in a closet as punishment for minor things.
- VideoGame.Power Pro Kun Pocket 14: Hero 14 is raised by three Glasses Clan brothers. Yamada is a hard-working Henpecked Husband, Oda is a Cool Uncle who teaches Hero 14 how to fight and Yuda acts like a house-keeping "mom" who pushes the other two around because of his Baseball acomplishments.
- UsefulNotes.Qing Dynasty: Originally a concubine to the late Emperor Xianfeng, Cixi stayed in power as regent for 48 years, originally in non-romantic union with fellow Empress C'ian.
- Characters.Negima Ala Alba: Hakase and Chao worked together to build Chachamaru with a little support from Evangeline on the power source. The former two are considered her parents and the latter her master.
- Characters.Resident Evil Umbrella Corporation: Biologically, her parents are Veronica Ashford and the unnamed surrogate woman whose egg was fertilized with Veronica's DNA.
- Characters.Pokemon Friendlocke: Turns out to be the case at the end of Season 2, much to his own surprise.
- Fanfic.Eyes On Me: Sapphire finds herself pregnant in Chapter 6 of the first fanfic. She later gives birth to her and Ruby's daughter Garnet. Combined with Homosexual Reproduction.
- Literature.A Tale Of: It's revealed that Circe has three mothers. Her sisters created her using a spell.
- Main.Related In The Adaptation (Lyrical Nanoha entry): Vivio is implied to be Nanoha and Fate's biological daughter instead of being adopted.
- WMG.Tangled: Alternately, Flynn is Miguel and Tulio’s son. The gods of El Dorado used their godly magic to give Tulio and Miguel a kid. After all Eugene means ‘good birth’, what’s a better birth than being created by gods?
- Characters.Once Upon A Time Main Characters: To the extent that the war between Regina and Emma sometimes feels like a custody battle. As of Season 3, it appears that they've finally come to terms with this trope; they refer to Henry as "our son". Eventually, he has three: Emma, Regina and the serum-created Evil Queen, and two daddies: biological (and deceased) father Neal/Baelfire and stepfather Killian Jones/Captain Hook. Lots of people who can claim the term 'parent': biological, foster, step, clone of foster?
- VideoGame.The Sims: The Sims has no formal relationships, so any adult in a household with a child was considered that child's parent by the game engine. This led to situations where children could end up being raised by parents, step-parents, parents' roommates, two couples at once, and so on - all the while happily regarding them all indiscriminately as his or her parents.
- The Curious brothers in The Sims 2 seem to be preparing to raise Pascal's alien baby between the three of them.
- The Single Moms and Single Dads households (from The Sims 3 and PC and Console versions, respectively) feature same-sex friends who are single parents, share a house and appear to be raising their children together in (initially, at least) platonic relationships.
- Linn Valstrom from The Sims 3: Aurora Skies DLC is being raised by her adoptive Dad and his male friend - who, incidentally, are heavily implied to be a couple, although their starting relationship values just have them as Best Friends Forever.
- Dylan and Audrey Shears from The Sims 3: Roaring Heights DLC are a same-sex couple who have had a biological son together thanks to "advances in science" (possibly referring to the Engineer A Baby interaction that is available to any couple - including same-sex ones - in the Future world of Oasis Landing).
- This trope can be invoked by the player in any Sims game except The Sims Medieval, where same-sex couples are unable to have children, though they are free to marry.
- It's technically still possible even then, but requires a bit of forward planning as you'd have to marry an opposite-sex spouse, have the desired number of children, divorce or kill off said spouse and marry the same-sex partner of your choosing, who would then be recognised as the child's step-parent.
- Also, if a same-sex couple adopts a child via phone, the child is not their biological child (and can look totally different), but the relationship recognizes that they are the child's parents, with no qualifiers such as "adoptive-parents". All of the above...
- Manga.Chirality: Rachel as the daughter of Shiori and Carol in the sequel.
- Characters.Cleopatra In Space: Akila, her mothers, and other Vevosonians (the series' take on Fish People) have fins or gills in place of ears.
- VideoGame.Interesting NP Cs: Fuki, daughter of Nord Feldi (her biological mother) and Argonian Vukeera.
- YMMV.Luz Clawthorne (Hilarious in Hindsight) entry: "Chapter 2: Won't Get Away" reveals Boscha Has Two Mommies and later one of them (Nicole) is shown to have been a potionist in her youth. "Them's the Breaks, Kid" shows two girls in the potion track sporting traits related to Boscha.
- Characters.Deadly Mistakes: And they're happily shacked up in the afterlife. Well, an afterlife.
- Characters.The Emiya Clan: Saber/Arturia and Rin, jokingly.
- Fanfic.Leaf X Night: Flopkit, Petalkit, Darkkit, and Breezekit.
- Fanfic.Ruby Rose Of Class 1 A: While out on the Bakugo rescue mission, Kirishima mentions to Ruby about how his aunts would be also be worried about him if they knew what he was doing.Word of God confirms that both his aunts are lesbians. Doesn't say he was raised by them
- OnlyTheCreatorDoesItRight.Film (The Bourne Series entry): Zig-Zagged with My Real Daddy, as one may argue that the Bourne series has two daddies with directors Doug Liman and Paul Greengrass. With The Bourne Identity, Liman gave the film a unique style, but it was Greengrass who would flesh it out in its sequels The Bourne Supremacy and The Bourne Ultimatum, with Liman still involved as executive producer, garnering even greater acclaim. But when Greengrass turned down the offer to direct The Bourne Legacy, Matt Damon left with him, saying he wouldn't do any more movies without him, and Liman left too. This is part of why Legacy hasn't been as well-received as its predecessors. Though it should be noted that Tony Gilroy wrote all four films (and directed Legacy). Damon and Greengrass finally reunited to make Jason Bourne, which received mixed reviews, as well. Not even sure what to do with this one
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 11th 2023 at 2:05:49 PM
Paging ~Synchronicity to the thread.
Anyway, I'm leaning toward disambiguating because I'm not sure if there's anything that isn't already covered by other, narrower tropes, if I'm reading the OP correctly.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 6th 2023 at 12:32:56 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Disambig sounds fine.
My one idea is to make this tropeless-chairsy by adding a meaning, like "having gay parents... is difficult or the enviroment tries to make it difficult", because there are stories about that specifically. Since I don't see in the wick check examples really giving specific details, I think it'd have to be left for the yard.
Disambig meanwhile.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupDisambig, though I do find Unconventional Family Structure as a decent idea.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportDoes Platonic Co-Parenting cover non gay couples raising a child together like friends?
If that's so maybe a redirect might work.
If not then disambiguation sounds good.
It does. A non gay couple is the example as a thesis for the description which specifies that the trope isn't limited to male-female pairs. The only requirement is that the two parents aren't romantically/sexually linked.
Edited by MacronNotes on May 7th 2023 at 8:06:28 AM
Macron's notesdisambiguate
Disambig.
Edited by Tabs on May 8th 2023 at 10:52:08 AM
Disambig and yard the "Unconventional Family Structure" idea.
Good with disambig and TLP. Probably jumping the gun by trying to locate existent tropes that would be considered related or maybe even subtropes, but hey.
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker MailHashing out subtropes and related tropes for a TLP draft that hasn't been made yet might be jumping the gun, but hashing out what would go on the disambiguation page being proposed in this thread wouldn't be, if you know of anything to list that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 8th 2023 at 8:03:50 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Let's go ahead and disambiguate.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.The current disambiguation is:
Platonic Co-Parenting Non-Heteronormative Society Two-Donor Clone Homosexual Reproduction
Comments
A lot gets left out, such as,
Coparenting in a sexual relationship Coparenting in a nominally heteronormative society If there are two donors, then that by definition is not a clone. Artificial insemination is actually possible and fairly widespread, unlike the impossible idea of a "two donor clone", yet, there is no option for this method of reproduction.
A much more logical, and inclusive split would be
Has two Mommies Has two Daddies Has nonbinary parent
By being weirdly specific and not covering most cases, it is going to be impossible to implement this. Take a look at existing Has Two Mommies and observe that in most cases, none of the new categories apply.
The current disambiguation is:
- Platonic Co-Parenting
- Non-Heteronormative Society
- Two-Donor Clone
- Homosexual Reproduction
Comments
A lot gets left out, such as,
- Coparenting in a sexual relationship
- Coparenting in a nominally heteronormative society
- If there are two donors, then that by definition is not a clone. Artificial insemination is actually possible and fairly widespread, unlike the impossible idea of a "two donor clone", yet, there is no option for this method of reproduction.
A much more logical, and inclusive split would be
Has two Mommies Has two Daddies Has nonbinary parent
By being weirdly specific and not covering most cases, it is going to be impossible to implement this. Take a look at existing Has Two Mommies and observe that in most cases, none of the new categories apply.
The current disambiguation is:
- Platonic Co-Parenting
- Non-Heteronormative Society
- Two-Donor Clone
- Homosexual Reproduction
Comments
A lot gets left out, such as,
- Coparenting in a sexual relationship
- Coparenting in a nominally heteronormative society
- If there are two donors, then that by definition is not a clone. Artificial insemination is actually possible and fairly widespread, unlike the impossible idea of a "two donor clone", yet, there is no option for this method of reproduction.
A much more logical, and inclusive split would be
- Has two Mommies
- Has two Daddies
- Has nonbinary parent
By being weirdly specific and not covering most cases, it is going to be impossible to implement this. Take a look at existing Has Two Mommies and observe that in most cases, none of the new categories apply.
You can edit own posts, you know. Also, it's too late to vote.
And to reply,
"Coparenting in a sexual relationship"
you're free to yard or TLP this if you know several examples.
"Coparenting in a nominally heteronormative society"
That's what the "Unconventional Family Structure" proposal is for.
"If there are two donors, then that by definition is not a clone"
It is by Two-Donor Clone definition.
"A much more logical, and inclusive split "
And we don't have tropes for those.
"not covering most cases"
Most cases are ZCE to begin with and go into a trash bin.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupA disambiguation isn't very useful or usable if it does not cover all or at least most, of the instances covered by the parent. Because then you are left with a dead trope with nothing suitable as a replacement.
As with this disambiguation.
Yes I know I can edit my own entry, and this is what resulted, three similar entries rather than one edited one. In other words, was the result of using the edit button. Is there something I need to know?
Thanks for sharing your advice.
If it resulted in three posts I suppose it's some very odd glitch.
There is no parent trope and a disambiguation isn't a trope though? Disambiguation is "we're putting a grave on this trope, so here are some related tropes in case people search for it". It's not supposed to be used other than to catch search results.
Edited by Amonimus on May 10th 2023 at 4:56:32 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupAlso note that a significant amount of the usage is "has gay parents" which is People Sit on Chairs and not something we would try to find a 'replacement' for in any case.
Could we add LGBT Representation in Media to the disambiguation? That could cover some examples of "queer parents exist" but it's an index so it's suited for it.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Go ahead.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
To-do list:
I was initially concerned with Has Two Mommies being the People Sit on Chairs "has gay parents". According to Has Two Mommies And A Wick Check, it's not actually misused. The usage is much in line with the description's "two same-sex people who can reasonably claim to be a parent raising a child":
Whatever the reason, it's all the same: A family unit that cheerfully ignores the traditional view of a family requiring a father and mother, by having two (or more!) parents, parental figures, or Parental Substitutes of the same sex.
However, my issue is not with the usage (note how there's no misuse folder). It's with the scope, which I think is much too broad to be meaningful. Examples of "two mommies" from the wick check include:
Further, most of the usage (almost 50%) is "has gay parents", which is People Sit on Chairs. I think this is due to the sentence-friendly name ("Alice Has Two Mommies"), ignoring the unconventional family requirement. It is certainly not as common as "has straight parents" and was once much more notable in fiction than it is now (as the Malcolm in the Middle Values Resonance example cheerfully explains) but much like Bi The Way and tropes like it, is not tropeworthy by itself. In addition, being a gay couple with a kid isn't a guarantee that it's unconventional within the story, since we have Non-Heteronormative Society and settings where Homosexual Reproduction is the norm.
The linked Trope Talk discussions suggested a rename to something like Unconventional Family Structure and a tightening to focus on that. Since then, I realized that the existing trope Platonic Co-Parenting is actually broader than I thought it was, it's just not restrained to same-sex coparents:
so I think that could actually subsume most of the "family unit raised by non-romantically-involved parent figures" usage. Most of the others could be moved to Non-Heteronormative Society, Two-Donor Clone, or Homosexual Reproduction, with any other subtropes (e.g. a clash between foster and biological parents) saved for TLP.
Wick check:
Spun off from the LGBT tropes threadA wick check to see if Has Two Mommies is really just the chairsy "has gay parents".
Cameron: Odd that you would reference our friends, and not us.
Hiccup: You can have more than one mom or dad!
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 11th 2023 at 2:05:49 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.