During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Harada and Ragnar.
Writeups:
- Witcher:
- Emperor Emhyr var Emreis, the White Flame Dancing on the Barrows of his enemies, is a cunning Evil Overlord once overthrown in Nilfgaard as a prince. Surviving a curse and being hunted, he learned of the ancient prophecy of the Elder Blood, and married Princess Pavetta of Cintra to sire series heroine Cirilla. Eventually faking his death as the knight Duny, he returned to Nilfgaard, seizing the throne and committed to a brutal, expansionist war. Always learning from his errors, Emhyr eventually realized he loved his daughter Ciri too much to complete the prophecy by fathering a child with her and released her to Geralt, trusting him to protect her. Once again return to conquer the Northern Kingdoms, Emhyr uses Letho the Kingslayer to sow discord and leave the land open to his armies while asking Geralt to find Ciri again. In most endings, Emhyr ends up victorious, eliminating all would-be threats to his rule and can even abdicate in favor of Ciri, content at achieving all he wanted.
- Gaunter O'Dimm, AKA Master Mirror or evil incarnate is the cunning devil of the Witcher-verse. Traveling and punishing the arrogant in inventive ways, Gaunter makes deals with people and takes their souls when he has fulfilled his end. A master of Exact Words, Gaunter eventually conscripts Geralt to help fulfill a bargain with the immortal swordsman Olgierd von Everec, completely tricking Olgierd before moving to claim his soul, only stopped if Geralt participates in a final contest with him. Despite being a timeless evil being, Gaunter is unmistakably charming and pleasant, willing to play to the letter of his deals and treats enemy and ally alike with unmistakable pleasantness, quick to answer any slight with retribution.
- Vikings: Ragnar Lothbrok is a bold young Viking who schemes his way into being challenged by Earl Haraldson of Kattegat to kill him and take his place. As the Earl, Ragnar faces threats from men such as Jarl Borg and King Horik of Denmark, but manipulates, betrays and destroys them too, in the case of Horik even allowing the king to believe he has turned Ragnar's allies against him before revealing they were secretly Ragnar's spies against Horik. Even managing to sack Paris by faking his own death so his 'boy' will be brought before the rulers so he can take Princess Gisla hostage and force the city's gates open, Ragnar later becomes broken in his later years, but schemes to create a new Viking age by turning himself over to the Saxons for execution so his sons will avenge his death, achieving everything he sets out to accomplish. A cunning, ruthless, occasionally brutal man who is dangerous to friend and foe alike, Ragnar exemplifies both the best and worst of the Viking age.
- Valiant:
- Valiant Comics: Toyo Harada of Harbingers is the brilliant Big Bad whose powers as a Harbinger awakened at an early age. Deciding to claim and remake the world, Harada recruits Harbingers to mold them with his ideals, performing brilliant gambits to continuously achieve his ends and staying a step ahead of the Harbinger rebellion led by Peter Stanchek. Rarely at a loss, Harada even plays off alien invaders without them being aware of his actions to defend 'his' earth and even manages to nearly conquer the world.
- Valliant Entertainment: In the reboot, Toyo Harada is more brilliant and ruthless than ever. A survivor of Hiroshima whose powers awakened when the Atom Bomb was dropped, Harada believes he must conquer the world to save it from himself. Recruiting young Harbingers via ruthless methods, even murder Peter Stanchek's friend and faking an accidental overdose, Harada dominates the airwaves as a seeming philanthropist and humanitarian to manipulate people, and constantly stays a step ahead of villain and hero alike. A man of bold conviction, a glimpse to the future even reveals Harada manages to conquer the world and makes it a utopia at the cost of freedom, before leaving the world to his rival Peter when he knows his life is at its end, trusting Peter to uphold his legacy even if Peter does not realize it.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Harada and Ragnar too.
Jack and I found a potential candidate from Heavy Object btw.
It might take some time before his effort post gets put up.
IPP Wick Check created.
Harada and a definite to Ragnar.
Harada is a definite, easy yes.
One other for right now..
What's the Work?
V for Vendetta is one of the most famous works by comic writer Alan Moore. Written as a critique of Thatcherism na dystopia, fascist England, young Evey Hammond finds herself in the company of the mysterious and deadly 'V'....a man in a Guy Fawkes mask, top hat and cloak...a man aiming to bring down the government and create a society of pure anarchy as it should be...
Who is V?
Excellent question. When the Party rose to power, Britain was purged of minorities, the sickly, the gays...they were taken and sent to concentration camps, where they were experimented on....now, in these camps, one man, a nameless man, proved to be...physically and mentally more adept than others. He was simply known as the man in room 5....or 'V'...he engineered his escape, blowing up the camp and escaping.
Now, people associated with the Larkhill Camp...began to die over the years. Accidents. Seemingly natural causes. Nothing that would raise any suspicion. But then V emerged nd announced himself by blowing up Parliament on November 5. Taking Evey with him to his mysterious lair, the Shadow Gallery, V showcases a great deal of planning and intellect. Early on, V takes over the chief broadcasting network of England and gives a speech to all England, lambasting them for letting fascism waltz in and steal their freedom. V makes an escape by dressing up the studio head as himself and letting the authorities shoot him to death as he exits stage right.
V soon abducts the Voice of England, Lewis Prothero, Larkhill;s former commandant and drives him irreparably and incurably insane by destroying Prothero's doll collection. Using Evey as a made up underage prostitute, he then has her sent to the pedophile, corrupt, lecherous bishop Tony Lillman who was at Larkhill as well....switching out and attacking when the bishop is alone with Evey, V kills the Bishop by feeding him a cyanide laced communion wafer.
Evey is having serious doubts about V, and simultaneously thinks he might be her father, who was abducted when she was a little girl. V ends up abandoning her outside the Shadow Gallery after informing her that her father is dead and isn't V. V also later kills the head of the Finger, the secret police, Derek Almond, leaving Derek's wife Rose a widow...now, V has also hacked into the supercomputer that party leader Adam Susan worships and obsesses over, tracking his movements, while he slowly puts his plans into play....now, Eric Finch, the head of the police, is tracking V and realizes that the last surviving member of Larkhill is Fincnh's friend and occasional lover, Delia, who was the doctor at Larkhill. V visits Delia and, as she is the only one to show remorse, injects her with a lethal poison as she sleeps. The two speak briefly and V watches her die without pain and at peace...
....Finch realizes this is not just revenge. V is clearing the path for himself. He's erasing anyone who could have identified him...and now he's free and clear. V, when Evey loses her lover to a brutal criminal, abducts her and proceeds to put her through horrible torture and mental strain, to see if she'll break under it...while also leaving her a diary that once inspired him in prison, belonging to a gay woman named Valerie, unjustly persecuted, who died alone in Larkhill...just as V hopes, Evey finds new strength and is reborn, just as V was, thanks to his manipulations.
V then reveals he has been guiding Rose subtly from behind the scenes to assassinate Susan, who he has been driving insane with the computer Fate. The head of the surveillance unit, the Eye is hopelessly in love with his cruel wife Helen who is having an affair with one thuggish recruit of the Finger, Harper....V secretly films it and sends it to Conrad, the Eye head so Conrad will murder Harper and leave Helen without means to control the finger. V prepares to have 10 Downing Street blown up...and having also subtly been guiding Finch to understand and track him down, he and Finch have their showdown.
Finch shoots V, wounding him fatally, and V informs Finch that if he thinks to kill him, he'll be disappointed as "beneath this cloak there is more than flesh and blood. There is an idea. And ideas are bulletproof." Finch reports V's death and V returns to Evey, collapsing before her, imparting her she is to give him a viking funeral, and also that she must learn whose face is behind V's mask, but she must never know his face...Evey then realizes what she must do...and dons the mask herself, becoming the new V. She installs V's corpse into the train packed with explosives and sends it to its destination.
Evey them emerges as V as the government declares V dead, plunging England into anarchy with all party leaders dealt with. The comic ends with Finch walking free of London, with a note of ambiguity for the future.
Is he charming? Charismatic? Manipulative?
V is in control the ENTIRE comic. V is in control after he dies. There is no competition, nobody begins to come close. Finch finds him and kills him? Oh, just as planned. V never intended to survive this. He is nothing but charismatic, as the scene of his speech to London shows. For a man in a mask, V delivers verbose philosophy and political thought with incredible gravity. Easy keep.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
While V is a freedom fighter, Moore and Lloyd deliberately made him a very dark character to showcase perhaps the darker sides of anarchy and being a revolutionary. V manipulates people, even relatively innocent people like Rose. he's a murderer without a doubt, who factors in a complete societal collapse to his plans. His torture of Evey is utterly monstrous, regardless of how well intentioned it is.
This said, V does believe crafting the land of Doing As You Please is a better world. He absolutely, wholeheartedly believes the sacrifices are worth it, and for all his nastiness, he does care for Evey and did love Valerie deeply when he read her diary, with implications her horrible fate, done to her for no other reason than being a gay woman, is what partially moved him to destroy the government. All his moves are made with purpose, and his Freudian Excuse is an incredibly obvious one (IE: he was tortured in a concentration camp)
Conclusion?
Oh, god, easy yes. He even has a song about how well he's manipulating everything!
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 7th 2018 at 5:17:43 AM
One other right now...
What's the work?
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance is the third of Chan-wook Park's Vengeance trilogy, loosely connected by the shared themes of revenge. Now, in Lady Vengeance, Lee Geum-ja was a media sensation 13 years ago when she was blamed and imprisoned for the death of little Won-mo in a kidnapping and random. Geum-ja? Was pregnant by a classmate as a teenager and had a daughter. She was also having an affair with Baek, the man whose idea the thing was...he convinced her to take the fall or he'd hurt her daughter. Geum-ja took the blame, sending her daughter for adoption while she did her time in jail.
Now, Geum-Ja gains a rep in jail. That rep? The Kind-Hearted Miss Geum-Ja. Everyone loves her. She cooks, she cleans, she does favors, she donates a kidney....she murders the prison bully, a woman who murdered her husband and his lover (and ate them) who rapes other inmates, by feeding her drain cleaner with her food. She serves her sentence without complaint.
....and then when she gets out, it's fucking payback time. All her kindness, all the favors, all the sweetness? Were so she could call in favors later. When she's out, she begins cashing in, getting money, food, weaponry, everything she needs, as she tries to track Baek down. She finds Won-mo's family and cuts off a finger in front of them to atone, intending on cutting off fingers until they forgive her or she runs out of fingers, but they freak out too much after one single one. Geum-ja tracks down her daughter, adopted by an Australian couple, and knowing she has to prove herself to be ruthless, she ends up shooting a job to test herself if she has the killer instinct. Her daughter wants to go back to Seoul with her, and Geum-ja finally finds Baek, calling in one of her favors to have a former convict friend of hers marry Baek which is, um...abusive and the woman eventually tells Geum-ja to get a fucking move on the revenge because she can't stand another day of Baek. Baek realizes what's going on, but Geum-ja kills his thugs and Baek's wife drugs him. Geum-ja is ready to kill him, but...notices that Baek took a trophy from Won-mo on his cell phone and Geum-ja realizes in abject horror that he has multiple other little trophies...in fact, Baek is a serial killer of children who moves school to school once he kills a kid there after he kidnaps them, gets the ransom, dispatches the kids and moves on. Why? Because he hated kids and wanted to buy a yacht.
Geum-ja, with the help of her cop friend on the force who helped frame her at her own request 13 years ago, calls in the parents and informs them of Baek's guilt...they decide (with Geum-Ja secretly letting Baek listen in to make it even worse for him), to torture Baek and kill him themselves and keep the secret...with Geum-Ja making it pretty clear she'll deal with anyone who gets any bright ideas of confessing out of guilt later. Geum-Ja stands by as the family members torture Baek and finally kill him. They take a group photo, ensuring that none of them can turn in the others without implicating themselves.
The film ends with Geum-Ja and her daughter, Geum-Ja buying a white cake to resemble a block of tofu she was given as she left jail, a gift from a priest encouraging her to live 'pure'...it ends with Geum-Ja breaking down crying as she considers everything with Jenny embracing her mother.
Charming, charismatic? Good planner?
The woman did good deeds and favors for 13 years with a smile on her face just to cash in later, solely to get help with murdering a man, as justified as it was. She's known as Kind-hearted Miss Geum-Ja for a reason...she's angelic. She's beautiful and knows it, looks pure as the snow and wins people over easily. As a teenager, she gets a cop to help frame her for poor Won-mo's death and to cover up Baek's death. She's easily able to convince people to do as she wants, and she can play people like a goddamn harp. She passes here, and what's more? All her plans absolutely succeed, even if she changes them a bit on the fly.
Is she a bastard? Too much?
She manipulates her supposed friends, she murders the prison bully (who was a nasty rapist, but still), she has a man tortured to death (child killing Complete Monster but still) and has a friend marry the guy which she knows is horrible, but gives her an 'in' to abduct him easier. She shoots a dog as a test for herself. Geum-ja can be pretty nasty when she wants to be.
But she's not an evil person. She has a strong sense of morals and is horrified by Baek's snuff films and serial child murders. She feels horribly guilty for Won-mo's death and being manipulated by Baek and at the end, she truly wants to be a better person but isn't convinced she can be. she also loves Jenny with all her heart and Jenny has to literally hold a scissor to her own throat to force Geum-ja to take her from Australia as Geum-ja doesn't think she's worthy to look after her.
Conclusion?
Perfect keeper.
Yes & yes.
Yes to both of them
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Same as above.
Found this on Xenoblade 2's funny page.
"The ending of the "Uncover the Truth" side quest reveals the secret of the legendary Captain Nopopon. He was a treasure hunter who realized that other races thought the Nopon looked really cute and charming, so he fluffed up his fur, spoke in third-person, and added the "meh-meh-meh" Verbal Tic to fool everyone else. It worked so well that the entire Nopon race is pulling a Fake Cutie scam on the rest of the planet. Those little, furry Magnificent Bastardpons!"
Eh..... Think it's against the rules to feature groups?
I'm with changing the last bit.
IPP Wick Check created.
Hmm... yeah, go ahead and cut that. As for the groups thing? I haven't actually added it to the rules, simply because the problems has yet to arisen but I'll add that in. Due to how tied into exact personality and actions this trope is, we're probably not even going to ever get a dual candidate like we see in CM, even Talia and Bane were too different to be put together.
A group is theoretically possible, I suppose, in which they're all equally likeable, but one does the Chessmaster-ing and the other the emotional manipulating, but I can't say it seems likely.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Just wanna ask about something... If a character was played for butt of the jokes for the most of the time. But in the end, they revealed themselves to be a lot more intelligent than they seems by organizing all the bad things happen to the main characters because he wants to continue his family legacy and get away with all of it... Will he qualifies as a Magnificent Bastard or not?
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
I'm not sure if you guys got the memo, but discussion dates page is up: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Sandbox/MagnificentBastardDiscussionDates
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thanks... Was going to create it but I'll probably going to reserve some works from there BTW
Goku Black
Yes to both of the above.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Foreign Troper
Yes to V.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Verily voting up V.
V and Geum-Ja.
Batch time:
- Rookie Policewoman Kiruko-san: Seemingly respectable business director Jean Smith is really a powerful criminal trying to expand his operation by using the small town of Nagashima for smuggling. Knowing The Heroine Kiruko and her allies are infiltrating his cruise ship to capture him, Jean has his men prepare for the attack while he personally greets the police in a jovial and personable manner. Ordering his men to take Kiruko's senior officer hostage, Jean escapes the cruise ship along with his hostage before trying to sink the boat. Eventually captured by the police, Jean nevertheless remains cordial to the cops and calls a rescue jet as a backup plan to escape. Genuinely friendly to both his enemies and allies, Jean remains the suavest criminal Kiruko has faced.
- Batman:
- Ra's al Ghul is Batman's most powerful foe, and the only one to be his intellectual peer. Having lived for centuries, Ra's and the secret societies he controls have accumulated wealth to rival nations, and can purchase influence accordingly. Never short on hidden bases and armies of henchmen, Ra's has brought Gotham City to its knees, and has even challenged the Justice League of America, incorporating Batman's own failsafes into his plot to destroy the JLA. A master planner who pays attention to every little detail, Ra's exemplifies the fact that time is less meaningful when you can afford to wait—and Ra's can afford to wait a long, long time.
- Bane appears to be a hulking brute, but is in reality far craftier than he appears. In his first appearance in the Knightfall storyline, Bane achieved fame by psychologically manipulating Batman to drive him to the mental and physical brink before revealing Bane had deduced his secret identity. Ambushing Batman, Bane snapped his back over Bane's knee and proceeded to reign over Gotham until his defeat. Since then, Bane has been acknowledged by even Ra's al Ghul as one of the few men worthy to succeed him and has learned from every defeat to rise stronger than before. As a member of the Secret Six, Bane displays a deep affection for his surrogate daughter Scandal Savage and shows a deep sense of honor and loyalty to his team until the end when realizing his potential again, Bane manipulates them into one grand battle and defeat to shed all attachments and emerge stronger than before. Of all Batman's foes, only Bane has the distinction of being the man who once broke the bat himself.
- Superman:
- Lex Luthor has been frustrating Superman with his scientific acumen and brilliant intellect since the 1940s, and has run the gamut from Diabolical Mastermind to Mad Scientist to Corrupt Corporate Executive to President Evil and back, surviving every setback and always running the Man of Steel close. Firmly established as the leader of Earth's supervillain community, Luthor has led numerous incarnations of the Injustice Gang, Legion of Doom, and Secret Society of Supervillains, and has taken all-comers, emerging victorious over the likes of Brainiac, General Zod, Grodd and Vandal Savage to claim the title of Superman and one of DC Earth's most deadly villains, even briefly becoming a godlike being. Every bit as unstoppable as his archenemy, Luthor has proven time and again that his incredible mind is more than a match for Superman's physical might.
- General Dru-Zod II is one of Krypton's greatest criminals, and one of Superman's deadliest enemies. Confined to the Phantom Zone after his failed coup d'etat, Zod used his own son as a pawn in his plan to escape into the material realm during the events of Last Son, and forced Superman and Lex Luthor to ally in order to stop his takeover of Metropolis. Released again during New Krypton, Zod effortlessly incorporating the plans of others into his own, using civil unrest in Kandor, Sam Lane's various plots against the city, and Brainiac's invasion to reestablish himself as a populist military hero, and take control of Kandor from Alura Zor-El. Surviving Lane and Luthor's last-ditch effort to annihilate New Krypton, Zod and his surviving soldiers nearly conquer the world in the War of the Supermen, before the efforts of Superman, the JLA, and his own son saw him banished once more to the Phantom Zone. Always a brilliant strategist, and possessed of the raw strength to rival Superman, the Post-Crisis Zod can stand with Luthor as one of the Man of Steel's most capable and versatile foes.
- Valiant Comics:
- Original run: Toyo Harada of Harbingers is the brilliant Big Bad whose powers as a Harbinger awakened at an early age. Deciding to claim and remake the world, Harada recruits Harbingers to mold them with his ideals, performing brilliant gambits to continuously achieve his ends and staying a step ahead of the Harbinger rebellion led by Peter Stanchek. Rarely at a loss, Harada even plays off alien invaders without them being aware of his actions to defend 'his' earth and even manages to nearly conquer the world.
- Valiant Entertainment: In the reboot, Toyo Harada is more brilliant and ruthless than ever. A survivor of Hiroshima whose powers awakened when the Atom Bomb was dropped, Harada believes he must conquer the world to save it from himself. Recruiting young Harbingers via ruthless methods, even murder Peter Stanchek's friend and faking an accidental overdose, Harada dominates the airwaves as a seeming philanthropist and humanitarian to manipulate people, and constantly stays a step ahead of villain and hero alike. A man of bold conviction, a glimpse to the future even reveals Harada manages to conquer the world and makes it a utopia at the cost of freedom, before leaving the world to his rival Peter when he knows his life is at its end, trusting Peter to uphold his legacy even if Peter does not realize it.
- 3:10 to Yuma (2007): Ben Wade in the remake is a charismatic bandit leader who starts the film by driving cattle to block an armored car and then rob it. Famed for his brilliance and skillful gambits, Ben is eventually caught thanks to rancher Dan Evans and is sent to be taken to a train to be sent to Yuma prison with his former gang pursuing. Ben shows himself to be a slippery prisoner, constantly outwitting his captors and killing the most morally bankrupt of them. When he learns Dan's reasons for trying to get him to the train at the end, Ben even fights to assist in getting himself to the train and after Dan is mortally wounded, steps on board of his own free will, cementing Dan as a legend. Ben also reveals to Dan that he's been to Yuma prison twice-and escaped twice (which he and Dan both laugh over), and the film ends with him clearly planning his escape once again.
- Hellboy: Grigori Rasputin is the agent of the Ogdru-Jahad on Earth, and the ultimate villain of the film. Responsible for summoning Hellboy in the first place during World War II, Rasputin returns from death sixty years after the fact in order to oversee the next stage of his plan, manipulating Liz into returning to the BAU, reviving Sammael the Desolate One, infiltrating the BAU with Kroenen, and using the murder of Professor Bruttenholm to bring Hellboy to Moscow. Luring the BAU team into his mausoleum, Rasputin subdues them all, and offers Hellboy a veritable Deal with the Devil, promising to return the soul he has stolen from Liz in exchange for Hellboy choosing to summon the Ogdru-Jahad and end the world. Killed when this plan fails, Rasputin's last act is to gloat as Sadu-Hem, spawn of the Ogdru-Jahad, uses his body to enter the world, proving with yet another death, that his own mortality is still no obstacle to his plans.
- Public Enemies: The charming bank robber John Dillinger pulls off heist after heist on guarded banks while leading his gang, never losing his gentlemanly exterior and refusal to rob civilians that makes him a folk hero to many. Upon being arrested thanks to a fire at his hotel, Dillinger carves a wooden pistol and uses it to take the guards hostage, bluffing his way to freedom where he resumes his usual activities and remains one step ahead of the law the whole way through. Dillinger at one point even strolls into a police station wearing a disguise just to ask the cops the score to a baseball game out of sheer audacity, repeatedly showing that as one man against the federal government, he usually has the advantage.
- The Third Man: Harry Lime is a racketeer selling black market penicillin in post-war Vienna, completely untroubled by pangs of conscience. Calling his friend Holly Martins to Vienna, Harry fakes his own death to throw suspicion off himself, manipulating his old girlfriend Anna, as well as Holly and the police while he remains off the radar. Constantly staying a step ahead of everyone, Harry continuously attempts to put himself back in the good graces of those he's abandoned, which keeps working thanks to his charm and pleasant demeanor. Never at a loss for a smile, Harry won't hesitate to play a situation to his benefit, no matter what.
- Mistborn: The Original Trilogy:
- The Lord Ruler is the godlike emperor of the Final Empire who rose from humble origins to become a tyrant who united the known world under his rule and reshaped it in his image. Despite centuries spent struggling with Ruin's influence on his thoughts, the Lord Ruler remained determined to ensure the survival of humanity by any means necessary and set numerous contingency plans in motion. Even following the Lord Ruler's death his hand continued to work behind the scenes and would play a key role in Ruin's final defeat, and even centuries down the line his influence on Scadrial's history can't be entirely escaped.
- Kelsier was little more than an arrogant master thief until he and his wife were sentenced to the dreaded Pits of Hathsin by the Lord Ruler. Escaping, he proceeded to hijack the rebellion as his private army and carefully spread his reputation as a quasi-religious figure across the empire, so that when he was killed his martyrdom would trigger a mass uprising that would topple the Lord Ruler - and The Secret History describes how even death couldn't keep him down for good as he continued his scheming as a cognitive shadow. Charismatic, brilliant, and more than a little mad, the Survivor of Hathsin would topple a thousand-year empire through sheer force of will and cunning and create a reputation for himself as an iconic figure that would endure for centuries.
- Forgotten Realms:
- Asmodeus, the Lord of the Nine Hells, is the Wicked Cultured, Affably Evil, handsome and brilliant Archdevil who, ever since his fall from heaven, has been running a grand chess game that few can even begin to understand. Asmodeus knows every plot against him by the other archdevils and delights in thwarting or subverting them to his own benefit while making his own plots that can take centuries or even millennia to come to fruition in ways that benefit him. At one point, Asmodeus was even deposed from his throne in Nessus, only to later reveal it was simply a ruse to root out potential traitors. Since becoming a god, Asmodeus has only increased his power and effectiveness with some fearing he is perhaps the greatest threat to all the forces of good in existence.
- Jarlaxle Baenre, third son of Yvonnel Baenre, survived his birth and sacrifice against all odds, growing into a talented mercenary leader who thrives off the chaos of Menzoberranzan. Constantly hiring out his forces, the Bregan D'Aerthe while playing multiple sides in any conflict, Jarlaxle later goes to the surface, manages to win over nearly everyone he comes across and even uses an attempted coup from his underlings as a way to buy himself a vacation, eliminating the worst traitors and leaving the one Drow he can trust in charge of the group before manipulating powerful kingdoms, ancient dragons and monsters into doing what benefits him most. Jarlaxle is so successful and talented at his games that there are those who wonder if he is actually blessed by the normally virulently misandrist Lolth as a chosen of chaos.
- Gromph Baenre is the archmage of Menzoberranzan and a genius manipulator who is the undisputed master of the city's wizards. Keeping control through his own power and constantly playing his rivals against one another, Gromph showcases his penchant for manipulation by being one of the powers behind his sister Triel's throne and when the Priestesses of Lolth lose their power with the Goddess's absence, Gromph takes it upon himself to guide the city in the meantime. After being defeated by the evil lich Dyyr, Gromph is captured by a mind flayer and shows he prepared for a possibility with an impressive Memory Gambit that even programmed his own reactions to achieve it. He then attempts to eliminate one of the architects of the invasion of his city by fusing his hand to a crystal that burns like the sun when the other drow slips into the plane of shadow, trapping him there. Mixing an odd nobility with a ruthless ambition, Gromph repeatedly demonstrates just why he is one of the oldest and most powerful Drow alive.
- Dragon Age: Inquisition: Kind, helpful Solas is in actuality Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf of elven myth. Having once banished the tyrannical elven gods and raised the veil, Solas deeply regrets the damage this has done to the elven peoples and seeks to correct his actions. Manipulating the entire Inquisition and the Inquisitor against the evil sorcerer Corypheus, Solas conceals his own role in Corypheus's rise and when the battle is done drains the witch Flemeth of her powers, before helping thwart an invasion of the Qunari. Solas then reveals his plan is to tear down the veil itself, which will kill millions of innocents, even if he has no desire to do so. Seeing no other way, Solas accepts the Inquisitor will hunt him to kill him or show him a better way, stating he would cherish a chance to be proven wrong in his current course.
- Fate/stay night: In Fate Zero, Kirei Kotomine finally embraces the evil within himself after a lifetime of struggle with his condition of only finding joy in evil but having enough of a conscience to know right from wrong, betraying and murdering his master Tokiomi Tohsaka. Manipulating the church and other sorcerers for years after while keeping the Servant Gilgamesh intact. Kirei proceeds to manipulate the Fifth Grail War, playing everyone to assist him getting the Grail in each route. Kirei intends to summon Angra Mainyu, the being behind the Grail itself to ask it about the purpose of his existence, even if it destroys him or the world. Kirei manipulates everyone with an unmistakable sense of charm, frequently showing himself as the most compelling villain of the Fate franchise.
- Pony Island: Asmodeus.exe describes himself as more sophisticated than the other daemon programs, and lives up to his boast very well. Asmodeus challenges the player to a simple game: Don't leave the game window, and answer his questions correctly. Once it starts, Asmodeus steadily begins to employ a series of clever, fourth-wall breaking tricks to either ruin the player's focus or dupe them into tabbing out, ranging from taking the guise of somebody on their Steam friends list, to faking a game crash. Once beaten, Asmodeus congratulates the player for their performance, and accepts his death with pride.
- Vikings: Ragnar Lothbrok is a bold young Viking who schemes his way into being challenged by Earl Haraldson of Kattegat to kill him and take his place. As the Earl, Ragnar faces threats from men such as Jarl Borg and King Horik of Denmark, but manipulates, betrays and destroys them too, in the case of Horik even allowing the king to believe he has turned Ragnar's allies against him before revealing they were secretly Ragnar's spies against Horik. Even managing to sack Paris by faking his own death so his "boy" will be brought before the rulers so he can take Princess Gisla hostage and force the city's gates open, Ragnar later becomes broken in his later years, but schemes to create a new Viking age by turning himself over to the Saxons for execution so his sons will avenge his death, achieving everything he sets out to accomplish. A cunning, ruthless, occasionally brutal man who is dangerous to friend and foe alike, Ragnar exemplifies both the best and worst of the Viking age.
- The Witcher:
- Emperor Emhyr var Emreis, the White Flame Dancing on the Barrows of his enemies, is a cunning Evil Overlord once overthrown in Nilfgaard as a prince. Surviving a curse and being hunted, he learned of the ancient prophecy of the Elder Blood, and married Princess Pavetta of Cintra to sire series heroine Cirilla. Eventually faking his death as the knight Duny, he returned to Nilfgaard, seizing the throne and committed to a brutal, expansionist war. Always learning from his errors, Emhyr eventually realized he loved his daughter Ciri too much to complete the prophecy by fathering a child with her and released her to Geralt, trusting him to protect her. Once again return to conquer the Northern Kingdoms, Emhyr uses Letho the Kingslayer to sow discord and leave the land open to his armies while asking Geralt to find Ciri again. In most endings, Emhyr ends up victorious, eliminating all would-be threats to his rule and can even abdicate in favor of Ciri, content at achieving all he wanted.
- Gaunter O'Dimm, AKA Master Mirror or evil incarnate is the cunning devil of the Witcher-verse. Traveling and punishing the arrogant in inventive ways, Gaunter makes deals with people and takes their souls when he has fulfilled his end. A master of Exact Words, Gaunter eventually conscripts Geralt to help fulfill a bargain with the immortal swordsman Olgierd von Everec, completely tricking Olgierd before moving to claim his soul, only stopped if Geralt participates in a final contest with him. Despite being a timeless evil being, Gaunter is unmistakably charming and pleasant, willing to play to the letter of his deals and treats enemy and ally alike with unmistakable pleasantness, quick to answer any slight with retribution.
Now, Ambar has brought up some concerns about the ratio of the Luthor to Zod writeups, due to Luthor being the bigger villain and all. Personally, I think it's fine but anyone who thinks there's an extra feat of magnificence that the entry could use, feel free to add it in.
Goku Black
Could you pothole Lex Luthor to Lex Luthor
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Alrighty, new EP.
What's the work?
Lone Wolf and Cub is a manga about a traveling father and son duo. Ogami Itto, the Shogun's former executioner, a Master Swordsman and warrior who was betrayed and framed. On the run, the only survivor of his clan was his infant son Daigoro, who is now a stoic child of five. They are together....assassin: Lone Wolf and Cub, opposing the wicked Yagyu Clan that rules the Shogunate from the shadows, who will stop at nothing to destroy them. Itto makes his living at assassinations with a huge price (500 ryo which is a goddamn fortune)...you tell him your story and if it's a worthy cause, he'll take the hit...Now, let's talk Ogami Itto.
Who is Ogami Itto?
A warrior who has abandoned bushido to live the path of 'Meifumado'...the way of the demon. A master of the style Suio-Ryu, Itto was the decapitator of the Shogun. When a lord needed to commit seppuku, Itto is the guy chopping off their head. However, it made him enemies. The Yagyu clan coveted the position after Itto won it in a duel against the clan leader's youngest son....after they feared Itto was getting too close to the truth, they framed him for treason and massacred the Ogami clan, including Itto's wife Azami. Only his baby son Daigoro survived. Itto dispatched the Yagyu assassins who came for him, and lured the chief among them, clan leader Yagyu Retsudo's eldest son into the water to defeat him.
Now, Itto was forced into a duel by Retsudo against Retsudo's second son...the two are equal in skill, but Retsudo makes sure to place Itto so he's facing the setting sun while having Daigoro strapped to his back...Itto shows off how wily he is (something that's going to define him for the series) by...lowering his head when he and the other swordsman begina charge, revealing he's strapped a mirror to Daigoro's head, reflecting the sun and blinding the other swordsman so Itto can behead him. Itto proceeds to leave Edo and wanders the countryside as Assassin: Lone Wolf and Cub.
In an early story, Itto is hired to assassinate an evil noblewoman seeking to gain the lands of a rival lord by contracting deadly swordsmen. Itto...proceeds to throw Daigoro into the water so one of the passing swordsmen sees the kid drowning and goes to save him, prompting Itto to ambush him and stab him to death, before using Daigoro as bait for the second guard later while he performs his assassination. As he says? "A son knows his father's heart, as a father knows his son's!" The second warrior opts to release Daigoro and face Itto to the death anyways, and Itto, already deducing what his technique is because the guy is clearly trusting his own weapon over skill, is ready with a counter and wins.
In another instance, Itto is hired to assassinate a cruel lord who is starving his people and likes to play games where he shoots dogs with arrows. Itto's gets a dog and trains it to dodge arrows, before letting it into the guy's game...the dog evades the arrows and flees the arena with the lord angrily pursuing it...just to where Itto is waiting and makes with the slicey-dicey.
Oh, and about like half the time, his employer tries to murder him. Itto has already seen it coming and has a trap planned on them and walks away completely free. Oh, and he booby traps the living fuck out of the cart he put Daigoro in, meaning the kid is well defended. Now, the series is 28 volumes, but in every single one, Itto devises some clever scheme or gambit to get a target...and as one man against the Yagyu, he systematically dismantles their entire operation, exposes them for their manipulations and reduces their influence enormously. Oh, and as he reveals, when the destined fight with the Yagyu school comes? Itto had been charging so much so he could buy Daigoro homemade bombs...realizing Daigoro was putting his life on the line, but was too young to fight with a sword, Itto has him stand on a cliff and rain fiery explosive death on the Yagyu.
Anyways, this continues for a while until the final battle. The last fight of the series is between Itto and Retsudo, Itto worn down by fighting a ninja army, his infamous sword broken as he and Retsudo wound each other grievously...the armies from the series show up, the shogun riding to support Retsudo, the Daimyo indebted to Itto riding to support him as Ito and Retsudo have been locked in one pose for days, with Retsudo holding Itto's blade between his hands as the two force themselves to the utmost limit...until finally, Itto's body gives out and he dies standing before he collapses, Daigoro screaming out for his father before seizing a discarded spear head and charging to deal a final blow to Retsudo himself.
Is he charismatic? Charming? A skilled manipulator?
For a hitman with no resources save what he earns...Itto is a god-tier manipulator. Almost every story is him playing his targets, large groups of ninja and everyone else. He's just exceptional at it, and understands the way of bushido and human beings better than 99 percent of everyone else. As far as charisma goes...now, cultural standards are a bit different here. Itto is very stoic and relaxed, but this is meant to be compelling as it showcases him as a quiet, dignified, humble warrior, so definite pass here. I mean, he takes on the most powerful clan in the world and barring a few mishaps not really his fault (his first major duel with Retsudo where he likely would've killed him was interrupted by a dam breaking)...so yeah pass.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Itto is a former executioner who had explicitly executed children. He was kind about it as possible, telling the little boy to tap his chest with the fan and it'd all be over, but he was efficient. It's just what his job was and if the Shogun ordered someone dead, he's the executioner and had to do it, period. As an assassin, he is sort of a Hitman with a Heart but he's not very concerned with the morality of his contracts. It just so happens that most of the time he's hired to take out bad people, but he will kill good guys if they get in the way. One involves a disgraced samurai with plans for a bridge defending a corrupt lord who scorned him in the vain hope that the man will see reason for the bridge. Itto tries to warn him off, but the man dies defending the lord, which doesn't make Itto happy (and he gives the man's love interest the plans, telling her she has to see his dream to fruition as the 'wife of his heart' in the end).
Oh, yeah, and he puts his son's life in danger and uses him as bait...rationalizing this as followers of Meifumado, they have forsaken conventional morality. Hell, when his family died, Itto gave the baby Daigoro a ball and a sword and told him to pick one. The ball? Itto would 'send him to his mother's side'...the sword? He was going to be with dad. And in a weird way, him killing Daigoro would've been an act of love rather than evil, since Itto's religious beliefs are that he would be sent to his mother, happier there than on the blood-soaked road Itto travels.
Itto is also usually not really interested in being a hero in his spare time, but he does have good points. When an impoverished village begs his help, Itto accepts payment in a bowl of rice, saying that all the blood they've spilt has made this rice worth 500 ryo. He'll often share sympathetic moments with vanquished worthy opponents (leading to one rather unintentionally hilarious moment when a dying enemy spills his life story completely unprovoked and then ells "Tell me, Ogami Itto! what is Bushido!")....and another time when he perhaps goes a little overboard by slicing a conman's eyes open when the woman who hired him can't bring herself to do it. But overall, he's far, far, FAR from the worst guy in this series, and he disdains rape or needless brutality.
Conclusion?
You decide, but I say yes.
Goku Black
Itto
what about Yagyu Retsudo from the ymmv page. Does he also count ?
Edit: Spoke too soon. NVMND. ![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yagyu
Edited by miraculous on Jul 8th 2018 at 11:34:46 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Second Lone wolf and Cub candidate...Retsudo himself.
Who is Yagyu Retsudo?
Retsudo is the secret master of the Yagyu clan and the controller of the Ura Yagyu, the Shogun's assassins. Retsudo has used his position to seize almost total control of the Shogunate.
Now, Retsudo showcases his savvy when he realizes another lord is on to him with Itto. Retsudo arranges for a spar in front of the shogun with Itto and manages to manipulate it so he lets Itto disarm him so his staff flies out and strikes Itto's friend in the chest, leading to his disgrace for letting an old man's staff hit him. When Itto becomes the executioner, it's through a match with Retsudo's youngest son. Things go wrong in the duel when Itto loses to shield the shogun when Retsudo's son accidentally points his sword at the Shogun. Retsudo acts quickly, having his son's double commit suicide to present his head to the Shogun as an apology and sends his son into exile as he schemes to remove Itto. He does this by calling in a 'report' on treason and has a memorial tablet for the shogun placed in Itto's family shrine, meaning Itto is wishing for the shogun's death. He promptly eliminates Itto's clan and family, but Itto manages to survive.
Retsudo however, has an iron-fisted control, though Itto steadily kills all his ninja and warriors. Retsudo, however, constantly displays his strategic acumen, dominating the shogunate without even the shogun being aware of it. He constantly dominates and outwits other bushi, matching wits with Itto and showing himself just as capable as he is.
Now, midway through, Itto finds the infamous secret Yagyu letter from a Yagyu herald and exposes Retsudo's manipulations to the Shogun, severely reducing his influence. The Shogun also assigns Retsudo his creepy, squicktastic poison taster, a sickening man named Abe no Kaii to deal with Itto who uses tactics even Retsudo finds sickening and disgraceful (trying to poison an entire river for one, and uses drugs to sexually enslave women. Retsudo hates the guy)...eventually, Retsudo is left without support thanks to Kaii, but when the Shogun leaves Kaii in charge on a holy day, Retsudo has one of his ninja set fire to the kitchens without ever moving from one spot, just by letting the guy see his lips move...and on a holy day, this mean sKaii gets blamed and has to commit seppuku.
Retsudo then recalls all his hidden ninja, the 'grass' and sends them after Itto, knowing they'll all die, but having them target Itto's famous sword, giving their lives to shatter it. Retsudo is the last man standing, playing a song on his flute for his dead children, and quietly, stoically weeping for them before he and Itto fight. As detailed above, Retsudo wins and Itto dies...only for Daigoro to charge him. Retsudo? Opens his arms and accepts Daigoro's attack, hugging him and lifting him up to help him drive the spear into his body. Lone Wolf and Cub ends as Retsudo quietly names Daigoro "grandson of my heart", before passing.
Is he charming? Charismatic? Manipulative?
Extremely. retsudo is nothing but charm. He can be domineering and harsh, but he's very charismatic to his men and truly cares for his subordinates. As for manipulative? Retsudo spins wheels within wheels. He utterly dominates the Shogunate and leads everyone around without them suspecting a thing. The man is good....though there is one time, just one, where things fail because he was too clever by half.
Retsudo's eldest son, Shobei, is illegitimate, and Retsudo has never acknowledged him as a child. Ditto for his youngest child, a daughter named Sayaka. When his three legitimate children are dead, Retsudo recalls Shobei, who's a master swordsman equal to Itto and gives him the mission of killing Itto, but scorns Shobei as he has a noticeable deformity of his face....while saying he's going to use Sayaka to bear a pure heir when things are done, horrifying Shobei. Shobei fights Itto, who defeats him by enraging him by mocking his face and illegitimacy (as a front to throw him off, he's nothing but respectful to him after and the two make peace)....Shobei decides if Retsudo says they're not family, it means they're not and he, when dying, rapes Sayaka himself to so Retsudo won't....issue is, Retsudo finds them just after Shobei dies and freaks out, saying everything he said previously was a lie intended to drive Shobei away because he truly loves both of them as his kids and he didn't want them to be caught up in the horrible, bloody destiny of the Yagyu. "I just wanted you to two to live your lives in peace! Such was your father's heart!" Sadly this one...really backfired, ending with Sayaka vowing to train to avenge her family...only to die at Itto's hands later when she's too moral to kill Daigoro at a crucial moment.
It's also worth noting even when torn down from power, Retsudo keeps pushing back and totally destroys Kaii without trying. Even at the end, the Shogun he's manipulated and used comes to help him. That's impressive.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Oh, he's evil. He has tons of people killed, he destroys reputations, he has Itto's family slaughtered, and his manipulations run deep...Retsudo does a lot of nasty things and sacrifices his men without thinking twice.
However, he's a Noble Demon in the end. As a Bushi, retsudo holds to a sense of deep honor and standards. He has lines he will not cross, and as brutal as he can be, everything he does is with a sense of purpose. He's hard on his kids, but he truly loves them. The nastiest moment is when he claims he's going to impregnate Sayaka, but this turns out to be a clear lie solely to make Shobei and Sayaka hate him because all he wants is for them to live peaceful lives away from the Yagyu, aware of how everything he's done has cost his legitimate sons their lives. And in a bizarre way, while he and Itto loathe each other, Retsudo truly respects him at the end...and he begins to even love and respect Daigoro. At the end, when Itto is dead, Retsudo allows Daigoro to kill him, forsaking his own dream of rebuilding his clan as not to kill the boy and calls him his spiritual grandson.
Conclusion?
I'd give Retsudo an easy keep, that one slip up aside.
Wasn't DCAU Lex Luthor also approved by Shadao, shouldn't we put him on the pending list as well.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."