I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
In CGI movies or video games unrealistic movements or facial expressions may result in Narm. Dated special effects during dramatic scenes can cause Narm for younger audience members who were raised on nothing less convincing than the Phantom Menace. Totally Radical dialog in cartoons or commercials pandering to children can also be a rich source of Narm. Even a good performance in a bad movie can evoke Narm if the actor's performance isn't enough to save the scene.
That last sentence I feel just confuses the whole thing. It makes it sound like absolutely anything can count as Narm, no matter if it works in context or not.
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1102: Feb 4th 2022 at 1:32:31 PM
- ZCE
- Not clear from context if this is supposed to be taken seriously or not.
- Probably fine
- I guess fine
- How is this Narm? Cut.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1103: Feb 4th 2022 at 2:29:36 PM
Bringing up the following examples from Charmed S3E22 All Hell Breaks Loose:
- Narm:
- The massive Tear Jerker that is Piper's death is sadly ruined by Brian Krause's atrocious crying when Leo finds her body.
- Prue's line about everything turning into "a frickin circus" is meant to be serious, but rendered funny because of the Gosh Darn It to Heck!.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1104: Feb 4th 2022 at 6:54:53 PM
- Doesn't say if it's funny, just states a complaint.
- Maybe fine?
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1105: Feb 5th 2022 at 1:23:10 PM
Bringing up the following examples from Digimon Data Squad:
- Narm:
- In the dub, King Drasil has an appropriately badass male voice for what is essentially a giant supercomputer. Then Marcus is able to damage him...and out comes a regular female computer voice, complete with it going "Beep beep boop bop" before it actually starts speaking.
- It's hard to take Keenan seriously whenever he spouts Rousing Speech because of his speech pattern.
- Episode 37. Was it necessary to shift the focus on the girls (and Keenan) for every two scenes in order to emphasize their "assets"?
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1106: Feb 5th 2022 at 1:35:38 PM
- Not clear if that wasn't meant to be funny from context
- Maybe fine
- Not Narm
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1107: Feb 5th 2022 at 6:17:08 PM
Bringing up the following examples from Old:
- Narm: It's an M. Night Shyamalan film after all:
- Chrystal in the caves. While the context is appropriately horrifying, how her body contorts constantly to rather cartoonish proportions somewhat makes the scene unintentionally funny. Although if bone contortions, the sound of bones cracking, and human pretzels aren't your thing, chances are you'll get the intended reaction.
- Mid-Size Sedan’s Dull Surprise delivery of “oh damn” when his female companion’s body is discovered, which is out of place in what is meant to be a tense scene.
- Just………the fact that there’s a character named Mid-Size Sedan. Try to say the character’s name without laughing your head off.
- “I’M JARED!!!”
- The fact that much of the film's questionably worded dialogue ("He's a joke, he's a pretend person!") sounds like something that came out of The Room (or Shyamalan's similarly infamous The Happening). Guy and Prisca's accents don't help.
- One of the most infamous lines of the movie is "It's rust! It acts like poison when it gets into your bloodstream!", which Prisca says as the audience sees Charles being overcome with a septic infection after being stabbed with a rusty knife. The on-the-nose exposition mixed with her strangely enthusiastic delivery as a man literally dies right in front of her has garnered the scene endless mockery.
- The dramatic zoom on the note decoded to reveal "My uncle doesn't like the coral."
TantaMonty
Since: Aug, 2017
#1108: Feb 6th 2022 at 7:54:48 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
- This reads as "Personally, I found this funny, but every other human being is likely to be horrified". Cut.
- Probably fine?
- Wrong indentation, not a moment... easy cut.
- ZCE
- General example + Complaining.
- Indentation is wrong, but might be fine.
- ZCE.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1109: Feb 6th 2022 at 10:39:27 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Dark Nights: Metal:
- Narm:
- Metal #2 reveals the last of the metals Batman was investigating has been named after him, Batmanium. In an otherwise harrowing climax, it just kind of kills the moment by how seriously everyone takes the reveal.
- The Dawnbreaker's oath, obviously a play on the iconic Green Lantern oath, is awful. It lacks rhythm and is just awkward, and instead of being a moment of awesome, like it's seemingly supposed to be, it's just funny how bad Bruce's poetry is.
- The Merciless carving Wonder Woman's likeness into rocks with his fingers. It's supposed to be tragic, but it's just so damn cheesy that you expect a breakup song to start playing over the scene.
- Batman's dramatic reveal that he has... a baby Darkseid, and he's not afraid to use it!
- There’s only so many times a random villain can pop up out of nowhere, declare they’ve made a deal with Barbatos, and then derail the heroes’ plans before it starts getting comical.
- Most people thought the Batman Who Laughs was scary-looking while some fans instead laughed at the character design. He wears what looks like a metal spiked dog collar over his eyes which looks too much like Batzarro's design to be taken seriously. He wears tight restricting leather and heavy Cenobiteish chains which would restrict his moments in combat. He never closes his mouth so his gums look inflamed and puffy and his teeth have filed to points, on top of wearing red lipstick. He looks like a combination of a parody of various 90s Dork Age villains, some kind of concept art for a Hellraiser Batman, and a crossdressing S&M stripper all rolled into one. He also has a bunch of cannibal Jokerized Robins who continuously chant "Crow!" This has earned him the fan nickname "Laughable Bats."
- Murder Machine is kind of hard to take seriously knowing that his Start of Darkness essentially boiled down to a grown man old enough to be a father pining for his parental substitute. All the other Dark Knights at least turned bad out of anger or desperation.
- All these iterations of Batman that succeeded in overpowering the Justice League end up getting taken down by the main Justice League in the most anti-climactic way. You've got to wonder if Scott Snyder was trying to make a point about how a non-powered vigilante that can only get older wouldn't stand a chance against a team full of demigods.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1110: Feb 6th 2022 at 1:02:57 PM
- I guess fine
- Reads as "thing falls flat"
- I'd re-write the second sentence as "It's supposed to be tragic, but it comes off as cheesy instead."
- ZCE
- Needs to describe a specific moment
- General. Might fit WTH, Costuming Department? better, with the last 3 sentences chopped off.
- Fridge nitpick
- Fridge nitpick
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1111: Feb 6th 2022 at 3:07:50 PM
Bringing up the following examples from Highlander II: The Quickening:
- Narm: When it comes to unintentional comedy in this movie, there can't be only one:
- The voice Christopher Lambert uses for an aging Connor resembles a little kid imitating their grandpa.
- Katana's two cackling mooks are dispatched in the goofiest ways possible: the first is accidentally decapitated by a rolling trolley wheel, while the second is beheaded by Connor using a makeshift Razor Floss (actually a somewhat thick conduit wire) and then flies straight into an electrical panel, like a moth going into a bug zapper.
- "Ya gotta light?" *ZAP!* "EEEHAHAHA!!"
- Katana himself getting run over by Connor's transport. He shakes it off quickly enough, but the seeming anti-climax of it is bound to inspire a laugh or two.
- John C. McGinley getting his nuts squashed, complete with the expected reaction, and then transforming into a floppy-limbed dummy right as Katana throws him out a plate-glass window.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1112: Feb 6th 2022 at 4:39:36 PM
First sentence isn't necessary.
- General
- I guess fine
- ZCE
- Fine?
- Fine
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1113: Feb 7th 2022 at 2:10:53 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Batman: The Killing Joke:
- Narm:
- Batgirl's sexual encounter with Batman. With a mere change of her eyes, she goes from being angry to being lustful, kissing him and stripping her clothes off, out in the open. Also, her Wangsting about how he doesn't take her seriously (which given her obvious incompetence is fair enough on Batman's part), especially the scene where she shouts out about her "Yoga instructor" in public.
- Any tension from Batgirl and Batman's sexual encounter is completely lost when the camera pans up to a gargoyle looking down, which unfortunately looks like it's getting really into it. Either that, or he's Forced to Watch and suffering a case of "And I Must Scream".
- Batman's line that Batgirl hasn't stared into "the abyss... Where all hope dies" is also unintentionally hilarious, nearer to the version of Batman from All-Star Batman & Robin, the Boy Wonder. The line delivery is also awkward as if Conroy is trying to keep a straight face as he's saying this B-Movie line out loud.
- Paris Franz, the Canon Foreigner bad-guy of the prologue is Narm incarnate, from his ridiculous name (which is immediately lampshaded by Batgirl upon hearing Batman say it), to his weirdly sexual innuendos with Batgirl, and his over-the-top gimmicks like apparently paying a red-headed prostitute to wear a Bat-mask and roleplay as Batgirl in a throwaway comment that amounts to nothing, and even stooping to asking Batgirl if it's her time of the month during a fight. The effect is that the actual material from The Killing Joke, long controversial, comes off as refined and elegant by comparison.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1114: Feb 7th 2022 at 10:35:55 AM
The gargoyle example comes off as Fridge Snark to me, and the Paris Franz example is general and just seems to be listing regular flaws. The others might be fine though.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1115: Feb 8th 2022 at 4:34:33 AM
Bringing up the following example from The Fog:
- Narm: Like most of John Carpenter's work, the special effects hold up extremely well for modern audiences..but there are a few moments where things look a little shaky. One of the fishermen Elizabeth and Nick find aboard the ship has had his eyes gouged out...but instead of holes it's obviously fake putty and painted on wounds over his eyelids. Of course then he gets back up...
TantaMonty
Since: Aug, 2017
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1117: Feb 8th 2022 at 9:58:13 PM
Bringing up the following example from Blade Runner: Black Lotus:
- Narm: Viewers who live in Los Angeles get a kick out of how wildly inaccurately the metropolitan area is depicted. Though this is true of the entire Blade Runner franchise, Black Lotus in particular uses specific locations and takes place only 10 years in the future, making it even more amusing. Episode 7, for instance, is set mostly at the intersection of Sepulveda Boulevard and Victory Boulevard in the city of Van Nuys, and even accounting for the total replacement of all structures located therenote with cyberpunk skyscrapers in the span of a decade, the street signs, road width, and surrounding roads don't match with their real-life counterparts at all. At least "Sepulveda" was pronounced correctly. Partially justified in that Nexus Replicants have been around since 1999, the first movie was set in 2019, and it is firmly an Alternate Timeline.
#1118: Feb 8th 2022 at 11:18:38 PM
not really feeling it, especially with the self arguing
ArthurEld
Since: May, 2014
#1119: Feb 9th 2022 at 1:58:42 AM
Well, the last bit (Partially justified and that) were added by someone else, but yeah the original entry doesn't work at all.
Definitely cut.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1120: Feb 9th 2022 at 7:02:15 PM
Bringing up the following example from Digimon Universe: App Monsters:
- Narm: The end of Episode 21. Haru gets his hands on the final Seven Codes Appmon, but wastes time talking and puts it in very slowly, giving Mienumon enough time to snatch the Seven Codes from Haru. The episode ends with the group chasing down Mienumon.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1121: Feb 9th 2022 at 9:37:03 PM
That's just "plot development I don't like". Cut.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1122: Feb 10th 2022 at 8:27:49 PM
Bringing up the following example from Yogi's Gang:
- Narm: Dr. Bigot turning his mind control ray on Yogi produces a wild speech where Yogi starts essentially promoting the separation of the races (by species of course).
TantaMonty
Since: Aug, 2017
#1123: Feb 11th 2022 at 5:15:26 AM
Considering it's a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, is that scene even meant to be taken seriously?
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1124: Feb 14th 2022 at 12:58:23 PM
Bringing up the following examples from Narm.High Guardian Spice:
- During Rosemary and Sage's first day at Lyngarth, Rosemary is excited by the fact that a wild creature they encountered might have rabies. Sage's reply to this is "Do you want rabies?" which could've been funny if she had asked it sarcastically. Instead, the uncertain tone in her voice as well as the weird pauses between the sentence ("Do you... want? Rabies...?") due to the actor's stilted delivery seem to imply she's genuinely concerned that her friend is stupid enough to deliberately contract the disease.
- A particular moment that got ruined by rough voice direction was Snapdragon discussing with Amaryllis about starting to be more openly girly. A genuinely heartwarming scene between the two that summarizes the duo's friendship... Ruined by Snapdragon crying in an excessively over-the-top way before the heartwarming part gets to happen, killing the tone before it even gets to settle in.
- During the Fall Festival, Thyme runs into someone who's dressed as a tree. This causes her to freak out and imagine the tree covered in rot. While it's meant to indicate her trauma over her home being covered in rot, it can come across as hilarious to some viewers due to how over-the-top it looks for a main character to panic over a tree.
- Another voice acting example is Mandrake's reaction to getting stabbed in the stomach by Olive in an act of treachery, in which he cries "Oooliiiveeee!" in a manner that makes it sound like he's mildly annoyed by it.
- The scene where Olive drops the magical healing water Thyme needs to help cure her forest of a magical rot. Fridge Logic ends up shooting out the tension of the scene, as there's nothing that would stop the girls from going back to the cave to get more healing water. And if that doesn't apply, then the fact that Thyme reacts in such a low-effort animated way ends up making her broken reaction feel more like a moment out of a slapstick comedy.
- The fact that Rosemary and Snapdragon are fascinated by the concept of "transition magic" starts to look silly when seen in the context of a world brimming with all types of magic. In the episodes where it's explained to them, one features a cat changing into a Talking Animal and four girls transforming into mermaids respectively, yet changing into the opposite gender is apparently more unbelievable above everything else.
- Near the end of Episode 7, in order to escape a cave they've been trapped in, the girls submerge a dragon egg in magical healing water which causes the dragon to rapidly mature. They hitch a ride and after a brief flight over Lyngarth, the dragon begins to grow old then rapidly decompose, leaving nothing but its' skeleton as they land. The dragon then proceeds to get back up, say "I'm okay" in a rather derpy voice, fly off into the sky, then explodes into stars. The girl's reactions boils down to Rosemary asking Sage if that is how stars are made, with Sage giving a dismissive "Oh. Yeah, for sure". All in all, the scene has such giant Mood Whiplash that it's rather baffling.
- After Sage accidentally directs her magic attack towards the Scypith resulting in a fatal wound, it lets out a literal pig squeal as a cry of pain, momentarily breaking the heretofore intensity of the moment. It's definitely the last sound you would associate with a ferocious sea dragon.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1125: Feb 14th 2022 at 2:18:10 PM
- Implies the moment is intended to be funny. Fridge Snark
- Written as "thing falls flat"
- Reads as Fridge-y to me, but maybe it's fine
- "Thing falls flat"
- Admits to just being Fridge Logic.
- Fridge
- Seems like it's better covered by Mood Whiplash.
- Maybe fine
Total posts: 2,657
Bringing up the following examples from Digimon Tamers: