Ensemble Dark Horse Cleanup

It was also brought up in that ATT thread that perhaps this cleanup in general is being too strict in terms of what counts for the trope. Curious to see if others here think this is a problem or not.

Edited by harryhenry on Jul 7th 2022 at 9:20:37 AM

I agree that cutting any playable character might be going too far. We should look at the proportion of fandom attention to their comparative screen time, not just their screen time alone.

For example, I really disagreed with an earlier decision to cut Animal Crossing villagers, because there are absolutely villagers who are way more popular than their fellow villagers (essentially ensemble members), despite not being any more prominent in the game, like Raymond for example. Some of them are listed now, but I do remember that being a discussion.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I generally lean towards flexibility as long as the entry attempts to justify itself, and to focus more on purging particularly obvious cases of misuse. I don't think they need to be extremely minor to count, but if they're at least in the second tier or lower (even in fighting games where most characters are playable, certain characters will be obviously more The Face Of The Band than others) but the entry acknowledges their popularity is still surprisingly high for their prominence, then it should be reasonable enough.

About my earlier question about if Autumn Blaze counted despite her Celebrity Voice Actor. This shows Rachel Bloom was at San Diego Comic-Con 2018 with their role discussed and Autumn heavily featured in the teaser. Am I right in assuming that's too heavily promoted to count?

On the subject of EnsembleDarkHorse.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic, we have these characters whom despite serving as the Big Bads of their debuts/Season premieres/finales, are listed for the following:

• Discord, who has a Celebrity Voice Actor: his and their actor were unprompted as this was before the creator adjusted to what a mainstream big deal the show tuned out, and at that point a major villain existing at all was still surprising.
• Queen Chrysalis: They were effective a different character from their "Cadance" disguise which was promoted for the S2 finale, and it was absolutely unexpected by anyone we'd even have a major villain given only the season premieres had such stakes before this point.
• Tirek: Only counts due to having Darkhose status before his debut as his G1 incarnation was one of the most iconic parts of the original series fans were long speculating/fanon about him in FIM before his debut/promotion.

Thoughts about if they count as ED or not?

No, they're all really important characters.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Does a one-episode (at the time) villain not count as ED? Especially Chrysalis who I don't think formerly appeared in the main series for at least two more seasons.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I personally say villains don't count unless they're, like, random characters in an episode, like, say... the shadowbolts. Not the villain of a two-parter who had a lot of screentime and was meant to be an important character.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

In that case, should this entry on EnsembleDarkHorse.My Hero Academia be cut?

• Both Gentle and La Brava became this to the point where many fans wished for them to win their battle against Midoriya himself. The former gets love for how charming and Affably Evil he is, while the latter gets love for her Undying Loyalty. It also helps that both characters' not only have a genuinely heartfelt relationship, but also that their backstories make for some of the series' biggest Tear Jerker moments. A good number of fans want them to turn over a new leaf as the last time they were shown hinted towards, and want them to appear as allies during the fight with the League of Villains and the Meta Liberation Army, and the fact they haven't appeared since their arc has lead to fans constantly hoping they return.

They only appeared in one arc, but they were still half the focus of said arc and are both fleshed out well with their screen time, so it doesn't seem surprising they'd be popular.

And yes I said I'm taking a break from the forums but I'm making an exception for cleanup work.

I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.

Yeah, I'd say they're both too major to count.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Should SkekSil the Chamberlain be cut from the section on the The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance page, given that he's (arguably) the central focus character among the SkekSis as a whole?

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Jul 19th 2022 at 5:17:23 AM

Yes, he's The Heavy which by definition is a main role.

So per x7, keep Autumn cut? I get cutting Discord and Chrysalis, but what about Triek who was Darkhorse before even appearing? (Not count as his fan speculated role would have been too big? Prerelease exceptions not count as they aren't actually character yet/can't tell if they'll be minor enough to count?)

On that, what about Gilda, the Flim Flam brother, Lightning Dust, and the Mean 6 who were the main antagonists of their episode? Or non-antagonists who where their dubut episodes focus characters?

I can't speak about all of them, but I say cut Tirek because I definitely don't think pre-release opinions can count.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

YMMV.Neon Genesis Evangelion

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Kaworu. From being the only person to express love for Shinji to being the only Child who's generally happy-looking, he's well loved by the fans. In a Newtype poll in 2010, Kaworu was ranked as the 2nd most popular male anime character of the 1990's. This is despite the fact that he only appears in one episode. In the recent years he’s even managed to unseat Rei Ayanami, the once long-reigned face of Evangelion, with his only competition being Asuka.
  • Kaji, to a lesser degree. Toji Suzuhara is also popular. Maybe the reason he ultimately ended up more important than his classmates Kensuke and Hikari.
  • On the villainous side, the Angel Zeruel and Ramiel are incredibly popular to this day, the former being the first to actually physically breach NERV headquarters and being a full-on Hero Killer, and the second for its unique, utterly alien design (which only improved with the Rebuild movies.)

For the first one, I'm not sure. Despite appearing near the end, he does play an important role in the story. Also, that last paragraph violates Examples Are Not Recent.

The second one are just two ZC Es slapped into one.

I think the third examples count, they don't actually show up that much from what I've seen and are kind of lost in the action.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jul 19th 2022 at 4:03:41 PM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

This was just added to Fantasia.

• The Father Pegasus is a very literal example of this trope, for his imposing yet gentle nature.

It feels like they just listed him for the sake of making the pun, since it doesn't mention him being disproportionately popular.

EnsembleDarkHorse.Sonic The Hedgehog

• Surprisingly, Big the Cat has fallen into this after years of being The Scrappy, in a similar vein to Waluigi. Aside from being consistently better-received than he was when his debut game originally released (with many becoming more endeared to his easygoing Gentle Giant nature), even that has led to memes about how he's clearly everyone's favorite character, as well as being responsible for some of the funniest moments from Lets Plays of the game, such as the Game Grumps and The Runaway Guys. Sega of Virgin Islands even gave Big his own game, and he even got his own LEGO Dimensions scenarios.

Big appears to be more of an example of Character Perception Evolution than anything, as he still isn't that popular to count as a darkhorse. Heck, he's already an example in that trope which states he is a Base-Breaking Character.

Edited by Tomodachi on Jul 24th 2022 at 4:40:22 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Should John Donovan be cut from the YMMV.Mafia III page given that he's the deuteragonist of the game, rather than a minor character that became popular among the fanbase.

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Jul 25th 2022 at 11:06:47 PM

I imagine that was written before Character Perception Evolution launched. It can be safely cut.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

EnsembleDarkHorse.Fate Grand Order has a lot of entries I would question in some ways, but wanted to focus on this one:

• Xu Fu, the secret Big Bad of "Servant Summer Camp", is called an ensemble darkhorse by Nasu and Takeuchi in a Famitsu interview. Originally she wasn't even going to have a portrait, but they decided that she at least deserved to have one like Ereshkigal and got TAKOLEGS to make a design for her. Her having a design, combined with her true motives, made her into a quick fan favorite from the event. In fact, like Siduri before her, she was popular enough to become a shopkeeper for Battle of New York 2022 and to be Promoted to Playable during the 7th anniversary.

The fact that Xu Fu was made playable after getting few spotlight appearance makes me think that she qualifies to Breakout Character, so should her be removed from the list?

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

I want to see if the entries in Ensemble Dark Horse - Game Of Thrones are accurate if some of the characters are fairly major.

• Khal Drogo was part of the main ensemble cast in the first season — but only the first season, as he proved Too Cool to Live and only became a minor player in the overall storyline, unlike with Ned Stark. However, he's one of the most popular and beloved characters on the show for being a badass and for his Character Development, surpassing some more important characters such as the Greyjoys and Boltons in popularity, and is easily the second most popular player in Dany's early storyline only behind the Khaleesi herself (even though her other traveling companions get to stick around and play a bigger role in the storyline). Was a major character in the first season so probably cut
• Though a fairly minor character in the first season, Jory Cassel has a small, loving fanbase that remind everyone on Facebook his wonderful qualities by means of a meme called "Why We Love Jory Cassel". Seems fine
• Likewise the love for Septa Mordane seems to be growing as the years go by. The show gave her Adaptational Heroism from a Stern Nun to a Cool Old Lady who does her best to keep Sansa grounded in King's Landing (and doesn't bully Arya as she did in the book). She's also given a Dying Moment of Awesome (written by George RR Martin himself!) - where she bravely walks towards Lannister soldiers in the hopes of giving Sansa enough time to get to safety. Her actress Susan Brown got a big boost from being on the show, and even headlined a production of Angels in America a couple of years later on Broadway. Also seems valid
• While he vanished very early on, many people like Benjen Stark and there has been much speculation on what his ultimate fate was. Then Season 6 came along and it turns out Benjen has become a badass Human/Wight hybrid. People are quite happy to say the least. Seems fine
• Syrio Forel, the badass and Large Ham fencing master. Could be expanded but I think this may be a valid reaction
• Hodor. Hodor? HODOR! His popularity raised even further after Season 6's episode "The Door", which gave us The Reveal of his backstory and his Heroic Sacrifice. Dunno, he's a supporting character but he gets A Death in the Limelight
• Greatjon Umber. In the same scene where he starts off as a bit of a jerk ass, he instantly redeems himself when he takes Robb's act of mercy upon losing two of his fingers to Grey Wind and then jokes about it and laughs it off with all the Northmen. Seems fine
  • His son, Smalljon Umber, inherited his father's popularity. Having his first scene be him walk up to Ramsay and call him and everyone with him a cunt, tell him to go fuck himself and refuse to swear loyalty, made him a pretty popular character, even if he did betray Rickon. Also seems fine
• Jaqen H'ghar is popular for his mysterious, deadpan nature and awesome killing abilities. Dunno, if his actor was Promoted to Opening Titles, wouldn't that make him a main character?
• Bronn the blue-collar sellsword for the endless amounts of entertaining interactions between him and Tyrion and his Deadpan demeanor. Too major of a character
• Sandor Clegane aka "the Hound," what with his terrific battle sequences, brooding, complex personality and brilliant Odd Couple arc with Arya; especially notable in relation to the books given how little screentime he comparatively has. Too major of a character
• Barristan Selmy's got himself quite a loyal following as well considering his Memetic Badass and straight up badass traits. He even pulled off an amazing comeback scene in the Season 3 premiere when he saved Dany's life from a Manticore. Maybe
• Yoren's got himself a small following as well. From looking out for Arya's safety following her father's execution and even having a Dying Moment of Awesome all to protect her and the kids he was bringing to the Night's Watch. He's also got a knife sharp enough to "shave a spider's arse". Seems fine
• Podrick Payne's dogged loyalty, Adorkable behavior, and his hilarious and unexpected sexual prowess (approaching Sex God status) make him one of the singularly likable characters in a cast full of shades of gray. May be too important, IDK
• Lady Olenna Tyrell, a Cool Old Lady who got very popular, very quickly for being bitingly acerbic and frank and holding her own against many of the most powerful players in the game. Also, she kills Joffrey. That certainly didn't hurt. She also totally owns her own death scene, one-upping her killer with ease and going off with a blast. Seems to play too big of a role, let me know if I'm wrong
• Thoros of Myr is already being called the Game of Thrones version of Captain Jack Sparrow , what with his rather carefree cloud cuckoo lander attitude and outlandish approach to greeting Arya, Hot Pie, and Gendry. Also helps within a span of about five seconds he demonstrates what an amazing swordsman he is when he casts aside Arya's suspicions he's just a silly drunk and not good with a sword at all. Maybe
• Margaery Tyrell's fanbase grew exponentially with each appearance of hers in Season 3. She tamed and manipulated Joffrey of all people, caused Cersei (the "Power IS Power" Queen) to start panicking, has inherited at least some of her grandma's wit and cunning, and despite her gender and age is one of the best players in the game of thrones. She is also one in-universe, having endeared herself to the smallfolk as well as much of the court (something a pure power player like Cersei deeply resents). It's also worth noting, that the expansion of her character is almost universally liked even among the book fans, good part of whom isn't usually fond of changes from the original. Too major of a character
• Beric Dondarrion became this way before his re-appearance in Season 3 and then solidified his status as this simply because of his presence, his status as a leader amongst a group of people fighting not for any side of the war, but for the good of the small townspeople whom are suffering the worst out of anyone in the War of the Five Kings and in the name of Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark who are both long dead, and his seriously threatening reputation as a man that cannot die and even The Mountain is desperate to find and be done with. Also, his duel with Sandor was among the best duels in the series thus far. Seems fine
• The Spice King of Qarth has been quite popular for casually wrecking the prideful Dany with calm logic and biting yet polite rhetoric when she felt entitled to his ships for conquering that far-away land that she hasn't seen in decades. Seems fine
• Edmure Tully has a growing fanbase for being a hilarious Upper-Class Twit who nonetheless does his king and nephew a solid to make up for mistakes that were entirely Robb's fault. Probably valid
• Brynden Tully, the Blackfish, just like with the books, is one of the most popular minor characters, for being both a Cool Old Guy and for being a skullcracking badass. Seems fine
• Yara Greyjoy, especially after her single show-stealing scene in Season 3. Could be expaneded on why she became popular
• Roose Bolton — despite personally killing Robb Stark at the Red Wedding and conspiring against the whole North — actually has a growing following if the comments on Youtube and various Game of Thrones forums are to be taken into account. One cannot help respecting the man for his subterfuge, style, and the fact that he's an outright troll. Too major of a character
• Prince Oberyn Martell was already the biggest example in the books, and he follows suit here for being thoroughly unintimidated by the Lannisters and his unusual sexual proclivities. He had a major role in the fourth season so cut?
  • Pedro Pascal's passion for the role and his charisma oozing on virtually every scene he's in has ended up with people admitting that his legendarily gruesome death was actually more of a punch in the TV series than in the books. See above
• Oberyn Martell's paramour Ellaria Sand also won over fans as one of the show's prime examples of flawless casting in Indira Varma and her abundance of exotic fan service she brings. Sadly, this has evaporated in Season 5, thanks to her Adaptational Villainy, and especially following several specific Moral Event Horizon that are unique to the show. Now, she's demoted to The Scrappy. Aside from the reference to The Scrappy, isn't she too major of a character?
• Locke qualifies himself in Season 4 after managing to pull off several awesome feats in combat and stealth. Seems valid
• Daario Naharis, Daenaerys' sellsword-come-lieutenant/lover for much of the same reasons as Bronn, thanks to his blunt sarcasm, total badassery, and genuinely sweet relationship with Dany. This is especially notable since the book version of Daario is something of a scrappy, but show!Daario rises above that courtesy of Adaptational Heroism, Adaptational Badass, and Adaptational Attractiveness. Too major of a character
• Salladhor Sann, the witty and amorous pirate, gets a number of witty lines whenever chatting with Davos. Most notable is his claim that he's going to fuck Cersei as part of his price for aiding Stannis, clarifying that "he's not going to rape her, he's going to fuck her," and claiming that he's very persuasive. Seems fine
• Stannis himself has a growing number of fans who absolutely adore him and consider him the person most fit to rule Westeros. Not only did he prove himself a grade-A badass during the Battle of Blackwater, but he was the only Great Lord to send aid to the Wall when it was being threatened by the Wildlings and the White Walkers. Feats like these have earned him the nickname "Stannis the Mannis" to many fans. It certainly helps that Stephen Dillane is considered one of the best actors in the show. A lot of people are quite upset by his Adaptational Villainy in the series. However, the touching scenes between him and his daughter are very well-liked in a series that has a lot of dysfunctional families. Although the final two episodes of Season 5 split his fanbase clean in half... However, a lot of people were angrier with the writers over this, considering that in the books Stannis looks set to defeat the Boltons and however events go down they will be very different in the show. Too major of a character
• Like her father, Shireen has gained many fans despite appearing only in few scenes during Seasons 3 and 4, thanks to her being sweet and smart despite growing up with greyscale and in a rather dysfuctional family. She has gained more screentime during Season 5 and her interactions with her family and household have been appreciated by both critics and audience. When she was killed off in "The Dance of Dragons", fandom did not take it well. Seems fine
• Maester Aemon for being a Cool Old Guy, for the fact that his actor makes every one of his few scenes memorable and emotional. He's seen as a case of Small Role, Big Impact. Seems fine
• Wun Wun. His is part one of the coolest scenes of the series, and bring a Cool vs. Awesome moment when he, a giant, fight a zombie horde. It's not only glorious, but add his name, you get yourself a quite popular secondary character. Seems fine
• Karsi, the Wildling leader in "Hardhome" has become surprisingly popular. Of course, in typical Game of Thrones fashion, she gets killed by the end of the episode. Seems fine
• The Night's King, to the point of One-Scene Wonder. He simply raised his hands and resurrected all the dead Wildlings and Night Watch, all the while locking eyes with Jon, silently taunting him. And the fandom exploded with approval. Further approval for him increased many times after he kills Viserion with very little effort, and uses his reanimated corpse to destroy a chunk of the Wall and finally invade Westeros. Too major of a character
• Doran Martell is praised by many as the one good thing to come out of Season 5's much-despised Dorne storyline, with several great lines and a subdued but quite effective performance from Alexander Siddig. Being a Reasonable Authority Figure who can be kind yet still rule effectively, in a world populated by good people who end up suffering or selfish bastards helps. This is doubly impressive as he's also a pretty severe Adaptational Wimp, with his role as The Chessmaster completely removed. Fans caused an uproar when he was killed off by former Ensemble Dark Horse now Scrappy Ellaria Sand in the Season 6 premiere and most of his vengeful and scheming qualities are given to her. Maybe?
• Hot Pie was already quite popular from the books, but he seems to have become even more popular, seeing as he's one of the few comic relief characters in the series. The scene where he bids farewell to Arya is quite touching. There was much rejoicing when he returned to make a quick cameo in Season 4 and then again in Season 7. Seems fine
• Septa Unella in Season 5, who imprisons Cersei in her cell due to her simply refusing to take any of Cersei's shit and for her later participation in Cersei's walk of shame. Some fans have even started shipping her with Hodor due to both of their tendencies for Pokémon Speak. Maybe?
• Karl Tanner, he is a drunken thug whose villainy is taken up to eleven but when it comes to it he did walk the walk by almost killing Jon Snow and kill Craster, who was referred as a tough old goat after knocking Jon Snow. His "fookin' legend" soliloquy didn't hurt, nor did Burn Gorman's portrayal. Seems fine
• Smalljon Umber, despite suffering a severe case of Adaptational Villainy, is adored for his single scene where most of his dialogue consists of calling Roose Bolton a cunt to RAMSAY'S FACE while implicitly mocking him for the obvious way Ramsay killed him and refusing to swear fealty to the Bolton's, only allowing an alliance if the Umbers can work on equal terms with them. And he does all this while smirking. Seems fine
• Lyanna Mormont, the Badass Adorable, ten-year old Lady of Bear Island, after she held her own against Jon, Sansa, and Davos in negotiating the Mormonts' participation in the quest to retake Winterfell. Viewers already anticipated her appearance after her sternly worded letter to Stannis Baratheon in Season 5. Seems fine
  • Her popularity seems to have gone through the roof after she declares Jon to be the second King in the North.
  • She also won some major points when she rides with Jon to meet with Ramsay. Granted, she has no idea the kind of cruelty he's capable of and doesn't speak to him directly, but Ramsay doesn't look harmless by any standards. She's doubtlessly learned of his family's... habits, and she's still unflinching in the face of one of the most deranged characters in the series.
• Her namesake Lyanna Stark only gets appearances via flashback but has received a lot of love for them as one shows her as a tomboy princess just like her niece Arya while the other confirms one of the most popular WMG's of the series regarding Jon Snow's parentage. Maybe?
• Euron Greyjoy, who proves in Season 7 — with roaring, laughing, psychotic aplomb — to be the absolute perfect combination of cunning, competent, and batshit flipping insane required for an iconic villain. When it comes to the audience, Joffrey Baratheon he is not. He also personally killed two of the much reviled Sand Snakes and captured the last one and their equally reviled mother for some karmic retribution. That certainly didn't hurt. His actor's charismatic performance has proven to be very entertaining. Unfortunately, reducing him to a walking plot device in Season 8 negated this. Too major of a character
• Also from Season 7, that one Wight. You know, the one Sandor names Dumb Cunt. Yeah, the one who figured out the lake had refrozen and actually withstood getting his jaw taken off and his ribcage smashed in. Fans love this guy, and hope to god he survived Dany's dragon attack. Maybe
• Drogon, the largest and most prominent of Daenerys' dragons. Many fans were eagerly awaiting destructive dragon action in the series, and he delivers by providing many awesome moments for both himself and Dany. His badass design and amazing CGI work also help. Even with the events of the Grand Finale taken into account (His burning of King's Landing even after the bells were rung.), him burning the Iron Throne, the one thing that is pretty much responsible for everything into molten slag instead of Jon when confronting him over assassinating Daenerys, was considered one of the most satisfying moments in the series. He is even considered a better character then the majority of the human cast due to his interactions with Daenerys. Not sure on this one
• Everyone loves Ghost, Jon Snow’s direwolf. His beautiful and unique design with white fur and red eyes and he himself is pretty badass considering he helped Jon during the Battle for the Wall and the Battle of Winterfell and he survived both of those. When he finally reappears in Season 8 after being gone for a long time, fans rejoiced. Maybe?
• "Aberdale Strongbeard", a recurring extra on the show played by tour guide Andrew McClay. This is in part thanks to McClay's massive enthusiasm for the show and role in the Last Watch documentary alongside the fact that if you take all his appearances as the same character, he has quite a journey; a Baratheon soldier who survived Stannis' defeat, joined Jon for the Battle of the Bastards and has loyally served the Starks since. Not sure on this one
• Robert Baratheon, while never disliked, wasn't especially popular in early seasons aside from a few "GODS I WAS STRONG THEN" memes. As of Season 7, when his predictions about a Targaryen invasion come true with stunning accuracy, his popularity as the all-knowing and wise "Bobby B", who allegedly would have handled the situation better, skyrocketed and every line of his is turned into an all-caps meme. On a similar, but much more subdued note, Joffrey, who was always a Hate Sink, has some people joke that he would have been a more solid opposition to the Faith Militant and had a point about Dany's dragons being a threat. Too major of a character

For Smalljon's entries, should we keep the first one that's directly under Greatjon's entry or the second one that's under Karl Tanner's entry? Also let me know if my notes are accurate for some of the characters being too important. Thanks.

Bronn might count as a historical example, until his popularity and the fact they kept bringing him back in more and more prominent roles made him a lot more divisive over time.

Not familiar with GOT, but I'll reiterate my concern from the ATT thread linked earlier. You are being way too harsh in disqualifications — to the point that you even suggest a character literally described as a One-Scene Wonder in their entry might be "too major". This trope is not intended to be restricted to tiny bit characters; it is literally the dark horse of the ensemble.

What you (collectively) are doing is bypassing TRS and redefining the trope, but without changing the written definition, so that it no longer matches its usage.

I'm not sure I'd call the Night King a One-Scene Wonder if he has a recurring role, though I would like a second opinion from someone familiar with the show on if anyone has too major of a role.

How does this trope work when it comes to reality shows? MasterChef lists some contestants that excelled in the competition and got to appear in almost every episode, which I would argue would make them too major to be Ensemble Darkhorses.

I would say no, the contestants wouldn't count. You expect at least one of them to shine.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me

Okay, then I'll proceed with the cuts.

Might as well take care of other reality show pages while I'm at it.

Edited by TantaMonty on Aug 13th 2022 at 7:12:12 AM