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To-do list:

  • What Measure Is a Non-Badass? was renamed to Not Badass Enough for Fans due to misuse. The definition refers to when a character is disliked by a fandom for not living up to the level of badassery that would be expected of the series or genre, so remove any examples that do not fit that description.
    • Clean up on-page examples.
    • Clean up wicks.

    Original post 
NOTE: The following thread was written by El Rise. Please give credit to them.


What Measure Is a Non-Badass? is when a character is disliked by a fandom for not living up to the level of badassery that would be expected of the series or genre. A wick check is conducted to gauge misuse and complaining. The results are as follows.

  • 11/50 (22%) wicks fit the definition and has a neutral tone.
  • 8/50 (16%) wicks contain complaining (accusing the people who dislike the "non-badass" character for "forgetting" details, being unreasonable, etc.).
  • 19/50 (38%) wicks do not fit the definition (not used as audience reactions, simply saying how a character is "non-badass" but nothing about audience perception, using Played With terms, etc.).
  • 7/50 (14%) wicks are ZCEs.
  • 2/50 (4%) wicks are undetermined.
  • 3/50 (6%) wicks are unclassifiable.

Solutions (more suggestions are appreciated):
  • Rename (b.c. the "What Measure Is A..." part may be confused with other, non YMMV, tropes).
  • Clean up complaining.

Wick check:

The definition of What Measure Is a Non-Badass? is, "A character receives flak from the audience for not being perceived as badass as other characters". This is a wick check to see how the trope is used, as well as to measure the tendency for this trope to attract complaining (e.g., condemning a portion of the audience for disliking a "non-badass" character).

50/50

I: 11/50 (22%)
II: 8/50 (16%)
III: 19/50 (38%)
IV: 7/50 (14%)
V: 2/50 (4%)
VI: 3/50 (6%)

    open/close all folders 

    I: Pass 
  1. BaseBreakingCharacter.Tekken: Josie Rizal in 7, particularly amongst Filipinos, who either loved her because the Philippines has been historically underrepresented in video games, or hated her because of her Stripperiffic outfit and a choice of name that they consider insensitive to Philippine culture and history. Outside of Filipinos, the argument is different: She's either a decent character and someone that gives Bruce's moveset her own good spin, or she's disliked for having replaced Bruce at all, on top of being a crybaby that cries in one of her victory animations. A section of the fandom dislikes this character due to displaying a "non-badass" trait (crying). Correct pothole.
  2. RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap.Survivor: Sandra Diaz-Twine has always received flak for not being as badass as some fans expect she would be due to her being a two-time winner. Come to Episode Five of Game Changers where she manages to play J.T. like a fiddle and got him voted out even though he knows that he was on the bottom of his tribe and he even had an unplayed hidden immunity idol on him. Many fans regarded that as an extremely good move on her part and many people was convinced that she was the best player of all-time after that move. Correct pothole.
  3. WMG.Fate Stay Night: Honestly, I don't think the reason Sakura may not be as popular as the rest is about blame. Personally, I think we have a What Measure Is a Non-Badass? issue here. We've seen Rin and Saber kick ass a lot, and Ilya gets points for the weird mix of cuteness and hilarious insanity she is. But Sakura's entire character is about her Woobie-ness. Personally, I think you need other aspects to make a character likeable before turning them into a Woobie. To me, Sakura felt kinda lacking in that department, and of course, that whole mess with Saber being turned evil for her didn't help, either. On that note, Saber Alter's loyalty. Dunno about that. To me, it always seemed like the corruption left her with her memories and basic personality intact, but changed her very nature. So, in other words, evil was forced into her personality. If Sakura is blameless, then Saber's only fault was not being able to avoid being sucked into the shadow. Correct pothole.
  4. YMMV.Ar Tonelico Qoga Knell Of Ar Ciel: Saki is one of the more divisive heroines in the fandom because of her Apologetic Attacker nature and not supposed to be her “main” personality despite her Songs being just as powerful and destructive as any other heroine’s in the series.
  5. YMMV.Better Call Saul: The subsection of fandom who worshipped Walter White in Breaking Bad tend to hate Jimmy for “feminine traits” of being emotional, vain and talking his way out of situations. They also ask why Kim likes him so much (or just assuming she doesn’t actually), thinking she should go with the more “manly” Howard or Lalo, despite Howard being her boss for a time and Lalo she’s terrified of, while Jimmy makes her laugh, won’t judge her, never stops being loyal and is perfectly happy being slammed into a wall with a Forceful Kiss. A few parts of the example are irrelevant (e.g., "...worshipped Walter White in..."), but the example indicates that Jimmy is hated for "non-badass" traits ("...being emotional, vain and talking his way..."). No complaining, so pass.
  6. YMMV.Critical Role Campaign One: In a conversation following "Battle Royale II", Mercer theorizes that this is why many of the fanbase don't like Keyleth; she's socially awkward and constantly doubtful, standing out heavily against the rest of the party who are largely stone-cold and confident. While every member of the party is very insecure and troubled, Keyleth is the only one who never bothers trying to hide it, which can come across as Wangst with how often it comes up. Many of the fanbase dislike this character due to having "non-badass" traits. Tone is neutral. Pass.
  7. YMMV.High School DXD: Asia's supporters view her as a sweetheart and The Woobie who provides vital support to her team. Her detractors complain that she is generic and sickeningly sweet with an annoyingly high-pitched voice, often gets in the way of Issei's moments with Rias (whereas the other girls will compete for Issei's attention, Asia often simply cockblocked him outright), and has no fighting capabilities whatsoever. Asia gains detractors due to having a "non-badass" trait. Correct pothole.
  8. YMMV.Penguindrum: Shouma gets potshots (ranging from mere affectionate jokes to straight-up bashing) for not being as action-geared as Kanba. Even more so after episode 19. Clear and concise. Tone is neutral. Pass.
  9. YMMV.Record Of Lodoss War: Deedlit in the OVA is regarded a Faux Action Girl because she doesn't have any shining moments in combat. However, she gets a lot done with shamanistic magic outside of combat: finding a way out of a trap in the pilot, guiding the group through the Forest Of No Return, protecting them from the hot air vents in the ancient fire dragon's lair, and guiding the others to Parm's location after he gets his ass handed to him by Wagnard. The character in question contributes in non-combat scenarios but is associated with a "non-badass" character trope that has a negative connotation. Tone is neutral, so pass.
  10. YMMV.Star Ocean Till The End Of Time: Sophia gets a lot of hate, mostly for being a sweet-tempered Nice Girl instead of something more aggressive like Nel or Maria. The fact that she joins late in the game (and thus low leveled) did little to endear her to players. Also, because she is Fayt's childhood friend, she gets bashed from the Die for Our Ship crowd as well. Finally, she has an Identical Stranger who is the focus of an ill girl Damsel in Distress side arc, and so she is associated with that. A character is hated due to having "non-badass" traits. Tone is neutral. Pass.
  11. YMMV.Wild Arms 2: Marina gets backlash from fans due to her angst about being "weak" and her constant flip-flopping between wanting Ashley's attention yet not wanting to be a burden for him. Clear and concise. Tone is neutral. Pass.

    II: Contains complaining 
  1. YMMV.Captain Tsubasa: Sanae's pluckiness and cheerful disposition is often ignored or handwaved by fangirls, who bash her by falsely accusing her of being "weak", "a stalker" and "a bad example for girls" because she's less tomboyish as time passes. Blame the Values Dissonance and how the story itself is more centered on the soccer boys than on the other characters between them, not her! Self explanatory.
  2. YMMV.Deadman Wonderland: A lot of people keep forgetting that Ganta's fourteen and was an everyday middle school kid before being put in DW. Instead, they call Ganta pathetic and wimpy, and that 'he needs to grow up' while ignoring the fact that he won his two first Carnival Corpse matches against Senji/Crow and Minatsuki/Hummingbird. This is partially due in fact said people have only seen the anime. Accusatory tone.
  3. YMMV.Dragon Ball Z: Like most shonen, Dragon Ball fans are guilty of this. If a character is not one of the strongest in the series, they are written off as worthless. The human cast gets this especially bad since they Can't Catch Up to the Saiyans. Even Piccolo eventually falls behind, making fans declare him a wasted character, despite them helping the stronger characters in other ways outside of power. Gohan, however, gets this the worst since most of his fanbase seems to only like him when he's a badass. It's so bad that if Gohan isn't the strongest unfused character, they call him a wimp and decry him as a terrible character since he wants to live a normal life. The term "guilty of" and the Double Standard pothole indicate complaining.
  4. YMMV.Fire Emblem Mystery Of The Emblem: Nyna gets this from some fans. Considering how tough her life has been, it isn't surprising she suffers from emotional damage! Considering her shattered spirit, is it really surprising she handed her kingdom to Marth, after all the mess she was a part of?! Some fans also tend to blame only her for all that happened in book 2, forgetting Boah and Hardin's role in it (in-universe, all three characters blame themselves). Entry frames detractors of a "non-badass" character as unreasonable, which is complaining.
  5. YMMV.Fire Emblem The Sacred Stones: The Insane Troll Logic pothole, plus terms like "become worse" and "baseless", indicate complaining.
    1. Eirika is often put under the microscope, nitpicked, and/or downright bashed for being a sensitive Nice Girl aside of a Messianic Archetype and the Action Girl, with some of her haters even openly denying that both she and Ephraim are co-protagonists of the game and saying Ephraim is the only lead. Sometimes using Japanese fanart as "evidence".
    2. This has become worse ever since Fire Emblem: Awakening has her in the Bride class, despite still being a fighter on top of a staff user. Even more baseless because one can download a version of Eirika that is still 100% a Swordswoman (specifically a Myrmidon, which makes sense, since her Lord class is VERY similar to it), so the above "Bride Eirika" is an optional event that can be taken or not.
  6. YMMV.Harry Potter: The first double-bullet has obvious complaining, while the second is a bit sketchy.
    1. Many people bash Molly for being a House Wife, and killing Bellatrix "Feminist Role Model" Lestrange (though there are those who think Neville should have had the honour). And there's the slutshaming and bitchiness that the fangirls apply to Ginny for "not being enough of a rolemodel" and "stealing Harry from the 'more deserving and stronger' Hermione".
    2. Ron Weasley gets this, thanks mainly to the movies. He's often called "the useless one" of the trio since he's more or less Harry without the wealth and Plot Armour, and Hermione without the smarts. The fact that Ron took a figurative bullet in Book 1 by winning the greatest chess game that Hogwarts had seen for many years (as per Dumbledore), and that he managed to scrape by despite having a second-hand wand for his first year, a broken one in the second year, and won two Quidditch Cups (Harry only has one) despite having a cheap broom and little moral support, somehow isn't badass for fans. Leaving aside the fact, that Harry loves Ron precisely because of The Power of Friendship and that he himself doesn't judge people on how useful or useless they are.
  7. YMMV.Inuyasha: Fans throwing a fit because Sango dared to get married and have kids, and calling Kagome "weak" because being physically weak somehow makes you a weak person overall, even though she was just a regular schoolgirl thrust in the feudal world and she STILL gets a lot stronger as time goes on. It's averted in the actual series: Sango is a feminine, Yamato Nadeshiko family girl who is a demon slayer, and Kagura is a Lady of War that fights in a pretty kimono, her weapon is a pretty folding fan, and her attacks are all dances. Stealth complaining / snark; doubles as misuse because audience reactions cannot be "averted".
  8. YMMV.The Little Mermaid 1989: Being a non-action girl whose main motivation is becoming human to be with her prince, many people love to yell, "Ariel is a stupid bitch and a bad role model for little girls who THROWS HER LIFE AWAY FOR A GUY!" without stopping to realize that she already wanted to see the human world, Eric was mostly the final push she needed to make the decision to go there, and Ursula was doing some pushing of her own in a particularly vulnerable moment for Ariel, etc. Apparently, a woman isn't allowed to fall in romantic love ever; nor is romantic love allowed to be a partial motivation to do something she wanted to do anyway. She also gets a lot of flak for needing to be rescued by Eric at the end, even though she had saved him twice before that. Self-explanatory.
    1. A lot of "feminist" Ariel-bashing can also cross into straightforward Slut-Shaming, a la because apparently "you aren't empowered enough if you wear a seashell bikini".
    2. Although this is not a universal view among feminists.
    3. In a meta sense, Ariel is often thrown in with other "girly" Disney Princesses, like Snow White and Cinderella, as an example of being a poor role model to little girls; often unfairly compared to the more "badass" Tomboy Princesses like Mulan and Merida. Because Real Women Don't Wear Dresses! Thread mode

    III: Misuse or otherwise irrelevant context 
  1. Arrow.Tropes T To Z: In-Universe, Felicity has sometimes shown jealousy of what everyone else in "Team Arrow" can do physically, and her attempts to take combat training has gone very slow. No one questions her value to the team as Mission Control and The Smart Guy, but it is still a sore spot for her. Not an audience reaction. Context fits I Just Want to Be Badass better.
  2. Characters.Game Of Thrones House Martell: By all accounts a great ruler, but because he is not a warrior, Ellaria holds him in disdain. This factors in his downfall. Not an audience reaction.
  3. Characters.Puella Magi Madoka Magica Magical Girls: Before Episode 10, she appears to be an average girl caught in awful circumstances who at times behaves in a supposedly "stupid" or "cowardly" manner. Episode 10 reveals that Madoka is not only able to fight, but is willing to sacrifice herself because of her love for her friends. A pothole that depicts how a character in a work behaves. Misuse.
  4. CentralTheme.Anime And Manga: Shakugan no Shana: The value of Life, both in general, as well as the value of single lives in the face of a greater good, and not just regarding humans. Torches are remnants of humans who have lost their Existence. Do they have value? Do humans have value at all in comparison to those who protect them, or in the face of an apocalypse? Irrelevant context.
  5. DeconstructedTrope.Animated Films: How to Train Your Dragon deconstructs What Measure Is a Non-Badass?. The village of Berk only values physical brawn over smarts and wits. Hiccup grows up ostracized for his intelligence and lack of strength, and he becomes so desperate to prove himself that he ends up causing more harm to the village. It is only until the end where his smarts help the Vikings defeat the Red Death. Audience reactions cannot be deconstructed because they are not a trope. Should replace What Measure Is a Non-Badass? to Proud Warrior Race Guy or something similar.
  6. Video Games: Jorge takes his helmet off to make a civilian feel more secure and comfortable, which sets off Emile's moment where he shows his contempt toward civilians. A character shows contempt towards civilians, which does not fit the definition of this trope. Sink Hole.
  7. Fanfic.Mobile Suit Gundam Alpha: Zeon under Gihren sees the Lowborn (baseline humans) as being sub-human, and thus genocidal war crimes against them aren't crimes at all. Irrelevant context.
  8. Main.Soldier Vs Warrior: A Warrior is a fighter using his martial spirit and personal philosophy to fight, typically for honor and glory. To him, warfare is a contest of the fittest meant to decide a victor through either prowess, cunning, or divine providence. Warriors are often competitive, to the degree that having enemies that challenge them is more important than fulfilling objectives. Individual initiative is given more weight, and they typically look down on those who don't see combat or strength as a core virtue. Warriors typically consider themselves warriors at all times, even when not equipped for combat. A character in a work looks down on those who don't see combat or strength as a core virtue. Does not fit definition.
  9. PlayingWith.A Real Man Is A Killer: Deconstructed: Alternatively, this trope causes a Non-Action Guy to feel so emasculated that he commits a murder in order to prove himself to other people. A character of a work feeling emasculated has nothing to do with the trope. Sink Hole.
  10. YMMV.Countess Dracula: The entries don't suggest that the characters are disliked due to being non-badasses.
    1. Ilona may be a Damsel in Distress for most of the film, but she's very much a Defiant Captive and comes close to escaping. She also busts the wedding between Elizabeth and Toth, and it's her presence that outs Elizabeth for the monster that she is.
    2. Julie likewise appears to be a nursemaid and attendant, but her love for Ilona prompts her to try and help the girl escape her mother.
  11. YMMV.Digimon Frontier: We're supposed to treat MagnaGarurumon and EmperorGreymon as badasses who transcend the Warrior Ten, who are all but indicated to be Physical Gods. In the show itself, the two frequently get steamrolled by foes that they theoretically could beat without degenerating into uphill battles (even discounting the Royal Knights, they have trouble dealing with three SkullSatamon at one point) and even the battles they won are won only barely. The end result is the two having the worst win rate out of any anime protagonist's Mega forms (4 wins, 5 losses and 2 draws for EmperorGreymon and 3 wins, 6 losses and 2 draws for MagnaGarurumon) and making them look like failures, that even the original WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon has a higher win-rate compared to their supposedly "superior" counterparts (defeating four Mega-level villains and only losing to Piedmon). It doesn't help that the duo of Megas aren't seen again after Lucemon unceremoniously throws them around one last time. Context fits Informed Ability better.
  12. YMMV.Dungeons And Dragons Fourth Edition: 4th edition is very much geared towards heroic fantasy with the default assumption that the character is a badass, to the extent that it is mechanically difficult to create a character who is actually bad in an ability (as against 'average'). Likewise you can't really model an entirely green character who has picked up a sword for the first time as even a level 1 character can call upon fairly formidable powers — at least, not without reading the "Unearthed Arcanas" that provide optional rules for "level 0 characters" and grittier play styles in Dragon. Irrelevant context.
  13. YMMV.Godzilla King Of The Monsters 2019: Rodan annihilates Monarch's Gold Squadron of jets in an aerial battle with ease, and he manages to severely cripple Mothra before their battle ends, but he's a Memetic Loser because he's nowhere near the power level of the Alpha Titans Godzilla and Ghidorah (one of whom makes Rodan back down with but a Death Glare while the other curb-stomps Rodan in barely over one minute); even though the aforementioned Mothra is an Alpha. Being a Memetic Loser =/= being disliked by the audience.
  14. YMMV.Kamen Rider Dragon Knight: Discussed by Maya and Kase near the end, when they compare their respective methods of fighting evil - Maya took a go at Action Girl heroics but doesn't think it's her style, preferring to spread the truth as an Intrepid Reporter; Kase respects what she does. Since they're both girls, it also crosses with Real Women Don't Wear Dresses. Irrelevant context. Audience reactions cannot be Played With.
  15. YMMV.Medieval II Total War: Sparing captured soldiers gets you chivalry points. You can then order a massacre in a city (which can give you dread), but doing so reduces squalor, increases profit, and lowers disorder. This trope comes into play because town will then get tax and population growth bonuses from being run by a "chivalrous" general. That's right, you can spare a few dozen soldiers and slaughter thousands of civilians and still get called "chivalrous" by the peasants. Entry is describing a game mechanic rather than audience perception of a "non-badass" character.
  16. YMMV.SWAT: Unintentional Period Piece: But far more telling is the portrayal of the rough-and-tumble methods used by the S.W.A.T. team. LL Cool J's character bashes a civilian for her "liberal" views after she dares to criticize him for roughing up an African-American perp in South Central (though it's worth noting that four out of the five characters in the scene, Street excepted, are black), and there's an extended scene where the two main characters mock a S.W.A.T. candidate because he's never had a civilian complaint against him, and prides himself on handling every past situation nonviolently. Considering the large-scale controversy and protests against Police Brutality and the militarization of police in The New '10s, which made police reform a hot-button issue, these scenes couldn't possibly pass a test audience a decade later. Not an audience reaction
  17. YMMV.The Children Of Hurin: Context doesn't involve audience perception of the characters.
    1. When Gwindor returns to Nargothrond with Túrin, he has learned some things about Morgoth during his thralldom in Angband, and has the wisdom to see that Nargothrond must remain hidden and wait in hope for the Valar to deliver Beleriand. Unfortunately for poor Gwindor, he's now bent over, crippled, traumatized, and decidedly non-Badass, so everybody ignores his words. Even when Ulmo's messengers tell Orodreth point-blank that Gwindor's right, the king still takes Túrin's advice and goes to open war. It's only compounded by the fact that, typically, people who "escape" Morgoth return home as little more than his slaves or mouthpieces.
    2. Brandir. He's a wise leader and a healer but due to his lameness is overshadowed by Túrin to the point Dorlas' mocks him to his face. Little wonder he becomes bitter.
  18. YMMV.Thunder Cats 2011: The series more or less deconstructs this, especially in regards to Lion-O. Many of his own people show disdain towards his values of kindness and mercy towards his enemies, but their warrior culture attitudes are what ultimately led to their home being destroyed in the first place. Lion-O tries to be the badass king everyone wants, like Tygra, but over time he learns that this is not the right path to victory, and learns to rely more on his cunning, his leadership, and his mercy. Ironically, many fans miss this point and dislike Lion-O for not being the best fighter. That said, Lion-O does indeed become a much better warrior by the season's end. Audience reactions cannot be deconstructed.
  19. YMMV.Vorkosigan Saga: Ekaterin comes off as this compared to the rest of Miles's soldier/badass girlfriends, mostly because she's had a quieter, more domestic life. She has a brief Adrenaline Makeover at the end of Komarr that impresses the hell out of Miles, though, so maybe she just has that potential and never used it. Doesn't say anything about audience perception. Context becomes more irrelevant over time. Wrong indentation.
    1. Ekaterin acquits herself pretty well toward the end of Diplomatic Immunity while Miles is incapacitated. It's also made clear in the series that there's more than one kind of badassery, and once out from under Tien and in Miles' orbit Ekaterin starts displaying hers, from proposing to Miles in front of the entire Council of Counts to fox Richars Vorrutyer in Civil Campaign to working behind the scenes on both a personal and diplomatic level to make contacting the Cetagandans about the rogue ba easier in Diplomatic Immunity. She's also super-classy towards Miles' various paramours and would-be paramours, even having his old flame Taura stand as second during her wedding. And finally, as of Captain Vorpatril's Alliance, her artistic talents - already well established by her previous appearances - are shown to be both impressive (Tej's jaw drops when presented with an example of her work) and very much in demand (Lady Alys Vorpatril mentions with pride that her rooftop garden was designed by Lady Vorkosigan.)
    2. In-universe, this trope makes Cordelia extremely angry at the end of Barrayar:
      All Kareen's courage of endurance had bought her nothing, Lady Vorpatril's brave and bloody birth-giving was taken for granted, but whack off some idiot's head and you were really somebody, by God—!
      1. During an earlier scene in the same book, Cordelia shuts down an officer who criticizes Kareen for appearing to comply with Vordarian's attempted takeover:
        Staff Officer: But she's Vor. She should have defied him.
        Cordelia: Oh, but you never know what any Barrayaran woman thinks by what she says in front of Barrayaran men. Honesty is not exactly rewarded, you know. (cue understanding nod from Drou)

    IV: ZCE or otherwise insufficient context 
  1. Characters.Arby N The Chief: He looks down on Chief for not being MLG. What is "MLG"? Also not an audience reaction.
  2. YMMV.Fushigi Yuugi Genbu Kaiden: Takiko is often used to bash her sort-of predecessor, Miaka. Without taking in account how both girls' lives are extremely different (Takiko is from Imperial Japan, Miaka from the Japan of The '90s), or how without Miaka as The Protagonist of the original... there would be no Takiko to start with. Bashed for what?
  3. YMMV.Future Diary: The primary reason for Yuki's less than pleasant reception within some parts of the fandom.
  4. YMMV.Imperfect Metamorphosis: Rin suffers from this. She has received a few criticism for being a weak character, but it must be considered that she resisted to the psychological attacks of the Shadow Youkai (to which, if she had broken down, Gensokyo would probably be no more) and always tries to find a solution. Needs more context on how a significant portion of the audience dislikes the character for being "non-badass". How "weak"?
  5. YMMV.Mega Man X: While X is not as popular as Zero because of this, he's also supported by fans who think Rock and Trigger aren't "manly enough". What "non-badass" traits does X have to be lacking in popularity? The "not manly enough" seems to apply only to the latter two characters based on this entry alone.
  6. YMMV.Neon Genesis Evangelion: Shinji. Of course, some see this as the entire point of the series.
  7. Scandinavia and the World: In-universe. Denmark is insufficiently metal.

    V: Unsure 
  1. YMMV.Dear Brother: If you watch this series on YouTube, PLEASE be careful while reading the comments. Lots of people there love to bash Nanako and call her "weak" or "stupid" for not kicking off her bullies. Unsure if using comments from YouTube only is enough for a YMMV entry. Tone is a little snarky.
  2. YMMV.Fire Emblem Heroes: This one is mixed — the first has a complaining red flag, the second seems alright, and the third is a bit sketchy.
    1. Rescued from the Scrappy Heap: Back in the The Blazing Blade days, Ninian often was hated by some for shipping and narrow-minded reasons. The Heroes fandom has received her appearance quite warmly, thanks to being a tanky Dancer, having a unique skill that assists her fellow dragons, and now using her dragon form outside of cutscenes. She ended up winning the Blood of Dragons Voting Gauntlet, absolutely dominating anyone she fought, even with the multiplier, and that particular Voting Gauntlet ended up not breaking the base just that once due to her presence. '''The word "narrow-minded" is a complaining red flag.
    2. Ninian seems to only be free from the bashing she got in the original game because now she can kick some tail.
    3. Alfonse gets this too, due to his kind and calm demeanor and the fact that he's also a Low-Tier Letdown due to his low speed. Though he can be made very useful through skill inheritance and he is far from having the worst stats of any unit, many people still make him out to be absolutely terrible, and his infamous loss in the first Voting Gauntlet doesn't help. In terms of personality, he also gets bashed for being afraid to get attached to anyone due to losing his friend, and is generally considered an "inferior Chrom."

    VI: Unclassified 
  1. Main.Badass Decay: Compare with Menace Decay, Motive Decay, Villain Decay, What Measure Is a Non-Badass?, and The Worf Effect. Compare and contrast Bait the Dog and Moral Event Horizon, where a Badass character loses their cool as a result of dog kicking. Comparing Badass Decay to related tropes, like this one.
  2. Main.Unexpected Reactions To This Index: An audience reaction in an index.
  3. Sandbox.They Wasted A Perfectly Good Character Wick Check: Found in a list of tropes to be checked.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 13th 2023 at 8:18:34 AM

themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#1: Jun 4th 2023 at 2:50:57 PM

To-do list:

  • What Measure Is a Non-Badass? was renamed to Not Badass Enough for Fans due to misuse. The definition refers to when a character is disliked by a fandom for not living up to the level of badassery that would be expected of the series or genre, so remove any examples that do not fit that description.
    • Clean up on-page examples.
    • Clean up wicks.

    Original post 
NOTE: The following thread was written by El Rise. Please give credit to them.


What Measure Is a Non-Badass? is when a character is disliked by a fandom for not living up to the level of badassery that would be expected of the series or genre. A wick check is conducted to gauge misuse and complaining. The results are as follows.

  • 11/50 (22%) wicks fit the definition and has a neutral tone.
  • 8/50 (16%) wicks contain complaining (accusing the people who dislike the "non-badass" character for "forgetting" details, being unreasonable, etc.).
  • 19/50 (38%) wicks do not fit the definition (not used as audience reactions, simply saying how a character is "non-badass" but nothing about audience perception, using Played With terms, etc.).
  • 7/50 (14%) wicks are ZCEs.
  • 2/50 (4%) wicks are undetermined.
  • 3/50 (6%) wicks are unclassifiable.

Solutions (more suggestions are appreciated):
  • Rename (b.c. the "What Measure Is A..." part may be confused with other, non YMMV, tropes).
  • Clean up complaining.

Wick check:

The definition of What Measure Is a Non-Badass? is, "A character receives flak from the audience for not being perceived as badass as other characters". This is a wick check to see how the trope is used, as well as to measure the tendency for this trope to attract complaining (e.g., condemning a portion of the audience for disliking a "non-badass" character).

50/50

I: 11/50 (22%)
II: 8/50 (16%)
III: 19/50 (38%)
IV: 7/50 (14%)
V: 2/50 (4%)
VI: 3/50 (6%)

    open/close all folders 

    I: Pass 
  1. BaseBreakingCharacter.Tekken: Josie Rizal in 7, particularly amongst Filipinos, who either loved her because the Philippines has been historically underrepresented in video games, or hated her because of her Stripperiffic outfit and a choice of name that they consider insensitive to Philippine culture and history. Outside of Filipinos, the argument is different: She's either a decent character and someone that gives Bruce's moveset her own good spin, or she's disliked for having replaced Bruce at all, on top of being a crybaby that cries in one of her victory animations. A section of the fandom dislikes this character due to displaying a "non-badass" trait (crying). Correct pothole.
  2. RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap.Survivor: Sandra Diaz-Twine has always received flak for not being as badass as some fans expect she would be due to her being a two-time winner. Come to Episode Five of Game Changers where she manages to play J.T. like a fiddle and got him voted out even though he knows that he was on the bottom of his tribe and he even had an unplayed hidden immunity idol on him. Many fans regarded that as an extremely good move on her part and many people was convinced that she was the best player of all-time after that move. Correct pothole.
  3. WMG.Fate Stay Night: Honestly, I don't think the reason Sakura may not be as popular as the rest is about blame. Personally, I think we have a What Measure Is a Non-Badass? issue here. We've seen Rin and Saber kick ass a lot, and Ilya gets points for the weird mix of cuteness and hilarious insanity she is. But Sakura's entire character is about her Woobie-ness. Personally, I think you need other aspects to make a character likeable before turning them into a Woobie. To me, Sakura felt kinda lacking in that department, and of course, that whole mess with Saber being turned evil for her didn't help, either. On that note, Saber Alter's loyalty. Dunno about that. To me, it always seemed like the corruption left her with her memories and basic personality intact, but changed her very nature. So, in other words, evil was forced into her personality. If Sakura is blameless, then Saber's only fault was not being able to avoid being sucked into the shadow. Correct pothole.
  4. YMMV.Ar Tonelico Qoga Knell Of Ar Ciel: Saki is one of the more divisive heroines in the fandom because of her Apologetic Attacker nature and not supposed to be her “main” personality despite her Songs being just as powerful and destructive as any other heroine’s in the series.
  5. YMMV.Better Call Saul: The subsection of fandom who worshipped Walter White in Breaking Bad tend to hate Jimmy for “feminine traits” of being emotional, vain and talking his way out of situations. They also ask why Kim likes him so much (or just assuming she doesn’t actually), thinking she should go with the more “manly” Howard or Lalo, despite Howard being her boss for a time and Lalo she’s terrified of, while Jimmy makes her laugh, won’t judge her, never stops being loyal and is perfectly happy being slammed into a wall with a Forceful Kiss. A few parts of the example are irrelevant (e.g., "...worshipped Walter White in..."), but the example indicates that Jimmy is hated for "non-badass" traits ("...being emotional, vain and talking his way..."). No complaining, so pass.
  6. YMMV.Critical Role Campaign One: In a conversation following "Battle Royale II", Mercer theorizes that this is why many of the fanbase don't like Keyleth; she's socially awkward and constantly doubtful, standing out heavily against the rest of the party who are largely stone-cold and confident. While every member of the party is very insecure and troubled, Keyleth is the only one who never bothers trying to hide it, which can come across as Wangst with how often it comes up. Many of the fanbase dislike this character due to having "non-badass" traits. Tone is neutral. Pass.
  7. YMMV.High School DXD: Asia's supporters view her as a sweetheart and The Woobie who provides vital support to her team. Her detractors complain that she is generic and sickeningly sweet with an annoyingly high-pitched voice, often gets in the way of Issei's moments with Rias (whereas the other girls will compete for Issei's attention, Asia often simply cockblocked him outright), and has no fighting capabilities whatsoever. Asia gains detractors due to having a "non-badass" trait. Correct pothole.
  8. YMMV.Penguindrum: Shouma gets potshots (ranging from mere affectionate jokes to straight-up bashing) for not being as action-geared as Kanba. Even more so after episode 19. Clear and concise. Tone is neutral. Pass.
  9. YMMV.Record Of Lodoss War: Deedlit in the OVA is regarded a Faux Action Girl because she doesn't have any shining moments in combat. However, she gets a lot done with shamanistic magic outside of combat: finding a way out of a trap in the pilot, guiding the group through the Forest Of No Return, protecting them from the hot air vents in the ancient fire dragon's lair, and guiding the others to Parm's location after he gets his ass handed to him by Wagnard. The character in question contributes in non-combat scenarios but is associated with a "non-badass" character trope that has a negative connotation. Tone is neutral, so pass.
  10. YMMV.Star Ocean Till The End Of Time: Sophia gets a lot of hate, mostly for being a sweet-tempered Nice Girl instead of something more aggressive like Nel or Maria. The fact that she joins late in the game (and thus low leveled) did little to endear her to players. Also, because she is Fayt's childhood friend, she gets bashed from the Die for Our Ship crowd as well. Finally, she has an Identical Stranger who is the focus of an ill girl Damsel in Distress side arc, and so she is associated with that. A character is hated due to having "non-badass" traits. Tone is neutral. Pass.
  11. YMMV.Wild Arms 2: Marina gets backlash from fans due to her angst about being "weak" and her constant flip-flopping between wanting Ashley's attention yet not wanting to be a burden for him. Clear and concise. Tone is neutral. Pass.

    II: Contains complaining 
  1. YMMV.Captain Tsubasa: Sanae's pluckiness and cheerful disposition is often ignored or handwaved by fangirls, who bash her by falsely accusing her of being "weak", "a stalker" and "a bad example for girls" because she's less tomboyish as time passes. Blame the Values Dissonance and how the story itself is more centered on the soccer boys than on the other characters between them, not her! Self explanatory.
  2. YMMV.Deadman Wonderland: A lot of people keep forgetting that Ganta's fourteen and was an everyday middle school kid before being put in DW. Instead, they call Ganta pathetic and wimpy, and that 'he needs to grow up' while ignoring the fact that he won his two first Carnival Corpse matches against Senji/Crow and Minatsuki/Hummingbird. This is partially due in fact said people have only seen the anime. Accusatory tone.
  3. YMMV.Dragon Ball Z: Like most shonen, Dragon Ball fans are guilty of this. If a character is not one of the strongest in the series, they are written off as worthless. The human cast gets this especially bad since they Can't Catch Up to the Saiyans. Even Piccolo eventually falls behind, making fans declare him a wasted character, despite them helping the stronger characters in other ways outside of power. Gohan, however, gets this the worst since most of his fanbase seems to only like him when he's a badass. It's so bad that if Gohan isn't the strongest unfused character, they call him a wimp and decry him as a terrible character since he wants to live a normal life. The term "guilty of" and the Double Standard pothole indicate complaining.
  4. YMMV.Fire Emblem Mystery Of The Emblem: Nyna gets this from some fans. Considering how tough her life has been, it isn't surprising she suffers from emotional damage! Considering her shattered spirit, is it really surprising she handed her kingdom to Marth, after all the mess she was a part of?! Some fans also tend to blame only her for all that happened in book 2, forgetting Boah and Hardin's role in it (in-universe, all three characters blame themselves). Entry frames detractors of a "non-badass" character as unreasonable, which is complaining.
  5. YMMV.Fire Emblem The Sacred Stones: The Insane Troll Logic pothole, plus terms like "become worse" and "baseless", indicate complaining.
    1. Eirika is often put under the microscope, nitpicked, and/or downright bashed for being a sensitive Nice Girl aside of a Messianic Archetype and the Action Girl, with some of her haters even openly denying that both she and Ephraim are co-protagonists of the game and saying Ephraim is the only lead. Sometimes using Japanese fanart as "evidence".
    2. This has become worse ever since Fire Emblem: Awakening has her in the Bride class, despite still being a fighter on top of a staff user. Even more baseless because one can download a version of Eirika that is still 100% a Swordswoman (specifically a Myrmidon, which makes sense, since her Lord class is VERY similar to it), so the above "Bride Eirika" is an optional event that can be taken or not.
  6. YMMV.Harry Potter: The first double-bullet has obvious complaining, while the second is a bit sketchy.
    1. Many people bash Molly for being a House Wife, and killing Bellatrix "Feminist Role Model" Lestrange (though there are those who think Neville should have had the honour). And there's the slutshaming and bitchiness that the fangirls apply to Ginny for "not being enough of a rolemodel" and "stealing Harry from the 'more deserving and stronger' Hermione".
    2. Ron Weasley gets this, thanks mainly to the movies. He's often called "the useless one" of the trio since he's more or less Harry without the wealth and Plot Armour, and Hermione without the smarts. The fact that Ron took a figurative bullet in Book 1 by winning the greatest chess game that Hogwarts had seen for many years (as per Dumbledore), and that he managed to scrape by despite having a second-hand wand for his first year, a broken one in the second year, and won two Quidditch Cups (Harry only has one) despite having a cheap broom and little moral support, somehow isn't badass for fans. Leaving aside the fact, that Harry loves Ron precisely because of The Power of Friendship and that he himself doesn't judge people on how useful or useless they are.
  7. YMMV.Inuyasha: Fans throwing a fit because Sango dared to get married and have kids, and calling Kagome "weak" because being physically weak somehow makes you a weak person overall, even though she was just a regular schoolgirl thrust in the feudal world and she STILL gets a lot stronger as time goes on. It's averted in the actual series: Sango is a feminine, Yamato Nadeshiko family girl who is a demon slayer, and Kagura is a Lady of War that fights in a pretty kimono, her weapon is a pretty folding fan, and her attacks are all dances. Stealth complaining / snark; doubles as misuse because audience reactions cannot be "averted".
  8. YMMV.The Little Mermaid 1989: Being a non-action girl whose main motivation is becoming human to be with her prince, many people love to yell, "Ariel is a stupid bitch and a bad role model for little girls who THROWS HER LIFE AWAY FOR A GUY!" without stopping to realize that she already wanted to see the human world, Eric was mostly the final push she needed to make the decision to go there, and Ursula was doing some pushing of her own in a particularly vulnerable moment for Ariel, etc. Apparently, a woman isn't allowed to fall in romantic love ever; nor is romantic love allowed to be a partial motivation to do something she wanted to do anyway. She also gets a lot of flak for needing to be rescued by Eric at the end, even though she had saved him twice before that. Self-explanatory.
    1. A lot of "feminist" Ariel-bashing can also cross into straightforward Slut-Shaming, a la because apparently "you aren't empowered enough if you wear a seashell bikini".
    2. Although this is not a universal view among feminists.
    3. In a meta sense, Ariel is often thrown in with other "girly" Disney Princesses, like Snow White and Cinderella, as an example of being a poor role model to little girls; often unfairly compared to the more "badass" Tomboy Princesses like Mulan and Merida. Because Real Women Don't Wear Dresses! Thread mode

    III: Misuse or otherwise irrelevant context 
  1. Arrow.Tropes T To Z: In-Universe, Felicity has sometimes shown jealousy of what everyone else in "Team Arrow" can do physically, and her attempts to take combat training has gone very slow. No one questions her value to the team as Mission Control and The Smart Guy, but it is still a sore spot for her. Not an audience reaction. Context fits I Just Want to Be Badass better.
  2. Characters.Game Of Thrones House Martell: By all accounts a great ruler, but because he is not a warrior, Ellaria holds him in disdain. This factors in his downfall. Not an audience reaction.
  3. Characters.Puella Magi Madoka Magica Magical Girls: Before Episode 10, she appears to be an average girl caught in awful circumstances who at times behaves in a supposedly "stupid" or "cowardly" manner. Episode 10 reveals that Madoka is not only able to fight, but is willing to sacrifice herself because of her love for her friends. A pothole that depicts how a character in a work behaves. Misuse.
  4. CentralTheme.Anime And Manga: Shakugan no Shana: The value of Life, both in general, as well as the value of single lives in the face of a greater good, and not just regarding humans. Torches are remnants of humans who have lost their Existence. Do they have value? Do humans have value at all in comparison to those who protect them, or in the face of an apocalypse? Irrelevant context.
  5. DeconstructedTrope.Animated Films: How to Train Your Dragon deconstructs What Measure Is a Non-Badass?. The village of Berk only values physical brawn over smarts and wits. Hiccup grows up ostracized for his intelligence and lack of strength, and he becomes so desperate to prove himself that he ends up causing more harm to the village. It is only until the end where his smarts help the Vikings defeat the Red Death. Audience reactions cannot be deconstructed because they are not a trope. Should replace What Measure Is a Non-Badass? to Proud Warrior Race Guy or something similar.
  6. Video Games: Jorge takes his helmet off to make a civilian feel more secure and comfortable, which sets off Emile's moment where he shows his contempt toward civilians. A character shows contempt towards civilians, which does not fit the definition of this trope. Sink Hole.
  7. Fanfic.Mobile Suit Gundam Alpha: Zeon under Gihren sees the Lowborn (baseline humans) as being sub-human, and thus genocidal war crimes against them aren't crimes at all. Irrelevant context.
  8. Main.Soldier Vs Warrior: A Warrior is a fighter using his martial spirit and personal philosophy to fight, typically for honor and glory. To him, warfare is a contest of the fittest meant to decide a victor through either prowess, cunning, or divine providence. Warriors are often competitive, to the degree that having enemies that challenge them is more important than fulfilling objectives. Individual initiative is given more weight, and they typically look down on those who don't see combat or strength as a core virtue. Warriors typically consider themselves warriors at all times, even when not equipped for combat. A character in a work looks down on those who don't see combat or strength as a core virtue. Does not fit definition.
  9. PlayingWith.A Real Man Is A Killer: Deconstructed: Alternatively, this trope causes a Non-Action Guy to feel so emasculated that he commits a murder in order to prove himself to other people. A character of a work feeling emasculated has nothing to do with the trope. Sink Hole.
  10. YMMV.Countess Dracula: The entries don't suggest that the characters are disliked due to being non-badasses.
    1. Ilona may be a Damsel in Distress for most of the film, but she's very much a Defiant Captive and comes close to escaping. She also busts the wedding between Elizabeth and Toth, and it's her presence that outs Elizabeth for the monster that she is.
    2. Julie likewise appears to be a nursemaid and attendant, but her love for Ilona prompts her to try and help the girl escape her mother.
  11. YMMV.Digimon Frontier: We're supposed to treat MagnaGarurumon and EmperorGreymon as badasses who transcend the Warrior Ten, who are all but indicated to be Physical Gods. In the show itself, the two frequently get steamrolled by foes that they theoretically could beat without degenerating into uphill battles (even discounting the Royal Knights, they have trouble dealing with three SkullSatamon at one point) and even the battles they won are won only barely. The end result is the two having the worst win rate out of any anime protagonist's Mega forms (4 wins, 5 losses and 2 draws for EmperorGreymon and 3 wins, 6 losses and 2 draws for MagnaGarurumon) and making them look like failures, that even the original WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon has a higher win-rate compared to their supposedly "superior" counterparts (defeating four Mega-level villains and only losing to Piedmon). It doesn't help that the duo of Megas aren't seen again after Lucemon unceremoniously throws them around one last time. Context fits Informed Ability better.
  12. YMMV.Dungeons And Dragons Fourth Edition: 4th edition is very much geared towards heroic fantasy with the default assumption that the character is a badass, to the extent that it is mechanically difficult to create a character who is actually bad in an ability (as against 'average'). Likewise you can't really model an entirely green character who has picked up a sword for the first time as even a level 1 character can call upon fairly formidable powers — at least, not without reading the "Unearthed Arcanas" that provide optional rules for "level 0 characters" and grittier play styles in Dragon. Irrelevant context.
  13. YMMV.Godzilla King Of The Monsters 2019: Rodan annihilates Monarch's Gold Squadron of jets in an aerial battle with ease, and he manages to severely cripple Mothra before their battle ends, but he's a Memetic Loser because he's nowhere near the power level of the Alpha Titans Godzilla and Ghidorah (one of whom makes Rodan back down with but a Death Glare while the other curb-stomps Rodan in barely over one minute); even though the aforementioned Mothra is an Alpha. Being a Memetic Loser =/= being disliked by the audience.
  14. YMMV.Kamen Rider Dragon Knight: Discussed by Maya and Kase near the end, when they compare their respective methods of fighting evil - Maya took a go at Action Girl heroics but doesn't think it's her style, preferring to spread the truth as an Intrepid Reporter; Kase respects what she does. Since they're both girls, it also crosses with Real Women Don't Wear Dresses. Irrelevant context. Audience reactions cannot be Played With.
  15. YMMV.Medieval II Total War: Sparing captured soldiers gets you chivalry points. You can then order a massacre in a city (which can give you dread), but doing so reduces squalor, increases profit, and lowers disorder. This trope comes into play because town will then get tax and population growth bonuses from being run by a "chivalrous" general. That's right, you can spare a few dozen soldiers and slaughter thousands of civilians and still get called "chivalrous" by the peasants. Entry is describing a game mechanic rather than audience perception of a "non-badass" character.
  16. YMMV.SWAT: Unintentional Period Piece: But far more telling is the portrayal of the rough-and-tumble methods used by the S.W.A.T. team. LL Cool J's character bashes a civilian for her "liberal" views after she dares to criticize him for roughing up an African-American perp in South Central (though it's worth noting that four out of the five characters in the scene, Street excepted, are black), and there's an extended scene where the two main characters mock a S.W.A.T. candidate because he's never had a civilian complaint against him, and prides himself on handling every past situation nonviolently. Considering the large-scale controversy and protests against Police Brutality and the militarization of police in The New '10s, which made police reform a hot-button issue, these scenes couldn't possibly pass a test audience a decade later. Not an audience reaction
  17. YMMV.The Children Of Hurin: Context doesn't involve audience perception of the characters.
    1. When Gwindor returns to Nargothrond with Túrin, he has learned some things about Morgoth during his thralldom in Angband, and has the wisdom to see that Nargothrond must remain hidden and wait in hope for the Valar to deliver Beleriand. Unfortunately for poor Gwindor, he's now bent over, crippled, traumatized, and decidedly non-Badass, so everybody ignores his words. Even when Ulmo's messengers tell Orodreth point-blank that Gwindor's right, the king still takes Túrin's advice and goes to open war. It's only compounded by the fact that, typically, people who "escape" Morgoth return home as little more than his slaves or mouthpieces.
    2. Brandir. He's a wise leader and a healer but due to his lameness is overshadowed by Túrin to the point Dorlas' mocks him to his face. Little wonder he becomes bitter.
  18. YMMV.Thunder Cats 2011: The series more or less deconstructs this, especially in regards to Lion-O. Many of his own people show disdain towards his values of kindness and mercy towards his enemies, but their warrior culture attitudes are what ultimately led to their home being destroyed in the first place. Lion-O tries to be the badass king everyone wants, like Tygra, but over time he learns that this is not the right path to victory, and learns to rely more on his cunning, his leadership, and his mercy. Ironically, many fans miss this point and dislike Lion-O for not being the best fighter. That said, Lion-O does indeed become a much better warrior by the season's end. Audience reactions cannot be deconstructed.
  19. YMMV.Vorkosigan Saga: Ekaterin comes off as this compared to the rest of Miles's soldier/badass girlfriends, mostly because she's had a quieter, more domestic life. She has a brief Adrenaline Makeover at the end of Komarr that impresses the hell out of Miles, though, so maybe she just has that potential and never used it. Doesn't say anything about audience perception. Context becomes more irrelevant over time. Wrong indentation.
    1. Ekaterin acquits herself pretty well toward the end of Diplomatic Immunity while Miles is incapacitated. It's also made clear in the series that there's more than one kind of badassery, and once out from under Tien and in Miles' orbit Ekaterin starts displaying hers, from proposing to Miles in front of the entire Council of Counts to fox Richars Vorrutyer in Civil Campaign to working behind the scenes on both a personal and diplomatic level to make contacting the Cetagandans about the rogue ba easier in Diplomatic Immunity. She's also super-classy towards Miles' various paramours and would-be paramours, even having his old flame Taura stand as second during her wedding. And finally, as of Captain Vorpatril's Alliance, her artistic talents - already well established by her previous appearances - are shown to be both impressive (Tej's jaw drops when presented with an example of her work) and very much in demand (Lady Alys Vorpatril mentions with pride that her rooftop garden was designed by Lady Vorkosigan.)
    2. In-universe, this trope makes Cordelia extremely angry at the end of Barrayar:
      All Kareen's courage of endurance had bought her nothing, Lady Vorpatril's brave and bloody birth-giving was taken for granted, but whack off some idiot's head and you were really somebody, by God—!
      1. During an earlier scene in the same book, Cordelia shuts down an officer who criticizes Kareen for appearing to comply with Vordarian's attempted takeover:
        Staff Officer: But she's Vor. She should have defied him.
        Cordelia: Oh, but you never know what any Barrayaran woman thinks by what she says in front of Barrayaran men. Honesty is not exactly rewarded, you know. (cue understanding nod from Drou)

    IV: ZCE or otherwise insufficient context 
  1. Characters.Arby N The Chief: He looks down on Chief for not being MLG. What is "MLG"? Also not an audience reaction.
  2. YMMV.Fushigi Yuugi Genbu Kaiden: Takiko is often used to bash her sort-of predecessor, Miaka. Without taking in account how both girls' lives are extremely different (Takiko is from Imperial Japan, Miaka from the Japan of The '90s), or how without Miaka as The Protagonist of the original... there would be no Takiko to start with. Bashed for what?
  3. YMMV.Future Diary: The primary reason for Yuki's less than pleasant reception within some parts of the fandom.
  4. YMMV.Imperfect Metamorphosis: Rin suffers from this. She has received a few criticism for being a weak character, but it must be considered that she resisted to the psychological attacks of the Shadow Youkai (to which, if she had broken down, Gensokyo would probably be no more) and always tries to find a solution. Needs more context on how a significant portion of the audience dislikes the character for being "non-badass". How "weak"?
  5. YMMV.Mega Man X: While X is not as popular as Zero because of this, he's also supported by fans who think Rock and Trigger aren't "manly enough". What "non-badass" traits does X have to be lacking in popularity? The "not manly enough" seems to apply only to the latter two characters based on this entry alone.
  6. YMMV.Neon Genesis Evangelion: Shinji. Of course, some see this as the entire point of the series.
  7. Scandinavia and the World: In-universe. Denmark is insufficiently metal.

    V: Unsure 
  1. YMMV.Dear Brother: If you watch this series on YouTube, PLEASE be careful while reading the comments. Lots of people there love to bash Nanako and call her "weak" or "stupid" for not kicking off her bullies. Unsure if using comments from YouTube only is enough for a YMMV entry. Tone is a little snarky.
  2. YMMV.Fire Emblem Heroes: This one is mixed — the first has a complaining red flag, the second seems alright, and the third is a bit sketchy.
    1. Rescued from the Scrappy Heap: Back in the The Blazing Blade days, Ninian often was hated by some for shipping and narrow-minded reasons. The Heroes fandom has received her appearance quite warmly, thanks to being a tanky Dancer, having a unique skill that assists her fellow dragons, and now using her dragon form outside of cutscenes. She ended up winning the Blood of Dragons Voting Gauntlet, absolutely dominating anyone she fought, even with the multiplier, and that particular Voting Gauntlet ended up not breaking the base just that once due to her presence. '''The word "narrow-minded" is a complaining red flag.
    2. Ninian seems to only be free from the bashing she got in the original game because now she can kick some tail.
    3. Alfonse gets this too, due to his kind and calm demeanor and the fact that he's also a Low-Tier Letdown due to his low speed. Though he can be made very useful through skill inheritance and he is far from having the worst stats of any unit, many people still make him out to be absolutely terrible, and his infamous loss in the first Voting Gauntlet doesn't help. In terms of personality, he also gets bashed for being afraid to get attached to anyone due to losing his friend, and is generally considered an "inferior Chrom."

    VI: Unclassified 
  1. Main.Badass Decay: Compare with Menace Decay, Motive Decay, Villain Decay, What Measure Is a Non-Badass?, and The Worf Effect. Compare and contrast Bait the Dog and Moral Event Horizon, where a Badass character loses their cool as a result of dog kicking. Comparing Badass Decay to related tropes, like this one.
  2. Main.Unexpected Reactions To This Index: An audience reaction in an index.
  3. Sandbox.They Wasted A Perfectly Good Character Wick Check: Found in a list of tropes to be checked.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 13th 2023 at 8:18:34 AM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#4: Jun 4th 2023 at 3:24:51 PM

I'm against cleaning up complaining on its own since that isn't a TRS-specific action, but renaming to make it more clear that it's an Audience Reaction and then cleaning up complaining might work, especially since the name is a snowclone and Everything's Worse with Snowclones.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 4th 2023 at 5:25:11 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#6: Jun 4th 2023 at 4:12:21 PM

I believe I'm leaning on renaming currently.

themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
ElRise I fix my examples all the time from The Dying City (Season 2) Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
I fix my examples all the time
Vilui Since: May, 2009
#12: Jun 4th 2023 at 10:06:03 PM

Definitely rename. The other "What Measure is a X" tropes are about X being treated as more disposable, not just disliked. (Except for What Measure Is a Humanoid?, which is also misnamed.)

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#13: Jun 4th 2023 at 10:30:16 PM

[up](x3) I like your second suggestion[tup]

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#14: Jun 5th 2023 at 12:46:24 AM

[up][up]The fact that it's misusing a snowclone is a point in favor of renaming, I feel.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
selkies Professional Wick Checker Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Professional Wick Checker
#15: Jun 5th 2023 at 10:01:28 AM

Rename. [tup] Not Badass Enough For Fandom is the clearest, but IDK if it needs to be this long.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#16: Jun 5th 2023 at 2:52:22 PM

I think there's a case for splitting the in-universe usage into another trope, where in-universe a character is scorned for not being badass. It could catch some of the "not a reaction" misuse.

Edited by PhiSat on Jun 5th 2023 at 3:53:41 AM

Oissu!
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#17: Jun 5th 2023 at 6:12:33 PM

[up]Are there enough in-universe examples to make this work (i.e., for it to not be wick-starved)? This is already YMMV, if that matters.

I think it would be better to Yard in-universe disdain for non-badasses because in the third folder in the wick check (the one labeled "not used as audience reactions, simply saying how a character is "non-badass" but nothing about audience perception, using Played With terms, etc."), it looks like only a handful of the examples involve in-universe reactions, and one is a misplaced I Just Want to Be Badass example.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 5th 2023 at 8:19:51 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#18: Jun 7th 2023 at 5:23:03 AM

Hooked a crowner for whether to rename.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#19: Jun 10th 2023 at 2:47:19 AM

Calling in favor of renaming.

What are our options?

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#20: Jun 10th 2023 at 2:53:28 AM

So, after looking through the thread again, we already have a decent amount of names, so I'll get a crowner ready soon; I'm taking a break at the moment. Part of why I'm making an extra post is because I thought of Not Badass Enough for Fans as an alternative to the existing suggestion Not Badass Enough For Fandom, possibly also putting "The" before "Fans" or "Fandom" with either.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 10th 2023 at 4:53:42 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#21: Jun 10th 2023 at 4:06:53 AM

All right, crowner's ready.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#22: Jun 11th 2023 at 8:58:42 AM

I personally don't have a problem with the current title.

But if it is to change, No Badass Enough For Fans is good.

Other suggestions:

Non-Badass Equal Worthless

They Are No Badass So They Suck

Why Are You Not A Badass?

Edited by jawal on Jun 11th 2023 at 5:02:20 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#23: Jun 11th 2023 at 11:01:54 AM

[up]Why Are You Not A Badass violates No New Stock Phrases, but I can bump the ATT query and mention that new options were added.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 11th 2023 at 1:04:02 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#24: Jun 11th 2023 at 11:09:29 AM

[up]

Thank you. [tup]

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#25: Jun 13th 2023 at 4:57:59 AM

Calling in favor of Not Badass Enough for Fans, with Not Badass Enough for the Fandom, Not Badass Enough for the Fans, and Fails Fandom Badassery Standards being redirects.

I'm pretty sure we don't need to rewrite the description since the issue is the name and not the description, so I'll move the page later (and any description rewrites, if any, can be handled later). I'm taking a break right now.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Trope Repair Shop: What Measure Is a Non-Badass?
10th Jun '23 4:04:07 AM

Crown Description:

Consensus was to rename What Measure Is A Non Badass due to misuse, since the definition is when a character is disliked by a fandom for not living up to the level of badassery that would be expected of the series or genre, but it was being misused in other ways. What should its new name be?

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