I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I think the reason most of the Venom (2018) examples are so bad was because people were adding example before the film even came out. I believe the sub-page was created about a month or two before the official release date. Obviously, I think creating a Narm entry for something that isn't even out yet is completely unfair, since the context in the finished product could be completely different. I remember one of the reasons the YMMV page for Captain Marvel (2019) was cut for a while was because people kept adding Narm entries to complain about Brie Larson's acting before the film was out. That's an extreme example, but it shows how bad this trope can be misused. Hell, I think I've misused it once or twice.
I wonder if this is one of those cases where the best thing to do would be to rename the trope entirely. Yes, Narm is one of our most well-known tropes and it's been spread everywhere across the site, but clearly the name isn't specific enough to get the point of the trope across. It's not something that's cringe-worthy or failed attempts at drama, it's dramatic moments that are made funny by accident. I don't know how much a new name would fix things, but I think it'll help stop some misuse. Call it "Unintentionally Hilarious" or something to make it reflect the trope a lot better.
Of course, we'd have to think about what to rename Narm Charm to if we go that route. It's an extreme solution right now, so I'd like to hear some other ideas.
I think a rename is more trouble than it's worth. This is one of the Tropes of Legend and it will be a huge amount of work to rename. YMMV tropes are more trouble in general, and we still have plenty of misuse with things like Broken Base that have clear names. But a long term cleanup seems like a good idea.
I think the path forward is to develop some set of (semi) objective criteria for what does and doesn't count as Narm, and re-write the page accordingly. Then start chainsawing bad examples.
It might help if people start by posting what they think are the best examples of the trope, and go from there.
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I remember one anti-Brie person defending their entry's inclusion by saying "You assume people aren't making jokes about it." Now, obviously that example wound up zapped, but it spotlights the problem that Narm is so generally defined/adhered to that people think "Well you could make jokes about this scene" is enough to qualify the scene as Narm. Like I said, if that was enough to qualify something as Narm, then every second of every piece of media ever could count. Which means the trope's definition (or at least the definition that's adhered to) is too broad.
The thing about the Venom (2018) page is that, from what I've looked at, it's no worse than the vast majority of Narm subpages. I think every Narm subpage could use a thorough scrubbing. Especially for works that are popular to hate, where you'll see nearly every scene drawn out into a lengthy list of exaggerated complaining. The page for The Emoji Movie is awful in this regard. The page image is a misuse. And nearly every other sentence had potholes to negative tropes bashing the movie, which is always a no-no. Also take note of this line under Film Narm: RiffTrax doesn't have to license the movies, so they can do any classics and blockbusters they like. They've since proven you can find Narm in any movie with the right observations. Emphasis mine.
I would definitely endorse some sort of definition update for the trope.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
I removed the "Meta" section on Venom's page (was planning on doing that for a while now) since it's such blatant misuse. One example admitted that the scene was intended to be comedic, while the other was criticizing the movie's Tag Line rather than any scene.
I'd like some feedback on these entries I found under Batman: Arkham City. Most of them are clearly nitpicks and things that you wouldn't find funny unless you nitpick them, but I can't actually tell if they're valid examples:
- One of the pivotal moments of the game is when Catwoman has to decide between saving Batman or escaping Arkham City with her loot. Choosing the latter choice leads to a Nonstandard Game Over in which The Joker won and Oracle is one of the last survivors. The game then rewinds and makes you go and save Batman. The true kicker is Batman is just stuck under some rubble.
- Batman struggling against the Mad Hatter's mind control looks completely ridiculous, because he's just shaking his head around and yelling while standing still. That mask Mad Hatter gave him makes it all the more silly.
- When Batman overrides the Freeze Gun Penguin stole, he knocks Penguin (a diminutive, balding, old man) off the balcony he's on with the most over-the-top Shoryuken ever while heavenly music plays in the background. It couldn't be more ridiculous if Batman was screaming "YEEEEEEEEEAH!" as he did it. It's even funnier on the off-chance that the punch fails to make contact.
- If you already know (or have been spoiled on) the Clayface Plot Twist, some of the Foreshadowing comes across as painfully obvious. Count the number of times someone says The Joker is "like a completely different person".
- Clayface's Game Over screens are truly a sight to behold. Though the quotes alone are snicker-worthy, his accompanying stage movements and Jiggle Physics are what really gets the crowd going. While the idea is that Clayface was formerly a hammy old time actor, it's overblown either way. William Shatner would be proud.
"Next, I will BECOME YOU, BATMAN!"- Building on his boss fight, a lot of Clayface's animations are really stupid looking, especially compared to how realistic everything else is, such as his hammer move that tracks you no matter how far away from him you are, or his spinning move where he just starts rotating on the spot.
- Also, this line from Batman. Yeah, It Makes Sense in Context, but it still makes death sound really, really cheap:
"Talia, where's Ra's? If he's dead again, I need you to wake him up."- Shortly after that, we get this gem from Talia: "Destiny will decide your fate." Apparently, writing vaguely prophetic mumbo-jumbo is harder than it looks.
- As Talia makes her speech about the League of Assassins' importance to the world, she ends it with a quick "Only we can do this." The line feels very out of place, almost like a kid explaining that only they can beat some huge threat while playing something.
- In general, some of the design aspects go so far into Darker and Edgier they can start to circle right back around to Narm, like the Penguin's monocle being replaced by an actual beer bottle jammed into his head.
- Penguin's real name, Oswald Cobblepot, is rather silly-sounding. It's hard to take Batman seriously as he growls at him, "You're not giving orders here anymore, Cobblepot."
- It's a bit hard to take Deadshot seriously when the supposedly excellent assassin keeps leaving his crap lying around. Additionally, there's no need to leave his (already encrypted) PDA in a stash, as he seems to have pockets. It's not like he needs two pockets full of ammo since he never misses and he has like 6 targets. And this is before his boss fight. note
- Turning on Big Head mode during important story moments results in this, but this time it's entirely intentional.
Short-Term Projects herald
A lot of those fail to explain the comedic factor. Unless they do, cut them.
Anyway, Narm.The Emoji Movie. I was going to bring this one up, due to the work being a complaint magnet. Narm.Sanjay And Craig existing as a page gives me bad vibes, seeing as the show has been subject to Reviews Are the Gospel-led Hate Dumb years ago combined with it being comedic to begin with.
I'm not even sure if this can manifest beyond bile and complaining, but we'll see. This would not be accepted nowadays if in the Trope Launch Pad, that's for sure.
Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
The weird thing - well, not weird given the well-demonstrated problems of the troper base, but still - is that the concept described by Narm in my experience doesn't even have to be inherently negative. I can think of numerous examples where I've found something unintentionally funny without it undermining the work or even the specific scene at all.
Edited by nrjxll on Apr 4th 2019 at 9:48:33 AM
Sanjay and Craig looks like 100% misuse. The first one is just complaining about bad animation, and the others are just jokes being jokes.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Cutlist
There is no Planet B
Narm.Game Of Thrones — season opener is out, and we're already at the bashing.
- Jon protests that he “doesn’t know how to ride a dragon”, and Daenerys’s response is “nobody does, until they ride a dragon”. While this could have been humorous, Emilia Clarke puts as little effort into the line as possible and puts the only mild emphasis on the final word, rather than “ride”, making it sound like dragons are an optional part of the process.
I fail to see how this fits "a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny".
Delete?
(P.S. I also deleted one entry for being pure speculation.)
Edited by XFllo on Apr 16th 2019 at 1:23:45 AM
Definitely delete. It's complaining + misuse.
Narm.Kingdom Hearts just had a new example that I don't really think qualifies:
- After Xehanort is finally, finally defeated, it's revealed that Xehanort was Not Evil, Just Misunderstood, and was trying to reset the world without its darkness all along. Nice little sentiment and all, but it's hard to take this sudden motive change seriously when his time on-screen has consisted of manipulating Terra into hurting his friends and killing his master, splitting Ventus into two and creating Vanitas as a result, exerimenting on innocent people and pinning it all on Ansem the Wise, attempting to turn several other people (including Sora) into vessels for him to use, and last but certainly not least, the aforementioned stuffing Kairi into the fridge. None of this is ever brought up, not even Kairi's death which should still be a case of "It's Personal" to Sora at this point, and Xehanort is allowed to Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence with Eraqus while everyone else looks content. It's only after this scene where Kairi's brought up again. Seeing this sudden change to such an Obviously Evil villain was bad enough, but brushing over all of his past sins? This isn't your average everyday narm. This is...advanced narm.
This looks more like complaining than an undercut dramatic moment. What do you guys think?
Edited by Loekman3 on Apr 16th 2019 at 8:35:02 PM
Found this one is Music.Narm:
- Stephen Sondheim, despite his reputation for intelligent, biting lyrics, has written a howling Narm on occasion.
- Into the Woods features a deep moment ruined by this:
"Witches can be right, giants can be goodYou decide what's right, you decide what's good."
- Somewhat justified in that the singers were addressing two exceptionally clueless and/or thickheaded teenagers. Sometimes you have to introduce subtle concepts with a clue-by-four.
- Into the Woods features a deep moment ruined by this:
This is Natter. Delete the Natter, if the Natter's wrong, and if it's right, delete the example. So, should I deleted the examples or not?
Having scrolled through various Narm subpages, I've noticed that, as a rule-of-thumb, any time a scene is described as "cringe-worthy", you can cut the example a) for complaining, and b) because it's probably just complaining about a thing that falls flat instead of a thing that comes off as funny.
I took a quick look at the Game of Thrones subpage. Yikes. Somebody more familiar with the show should scrub that page. I already zapped a bunch that were just "scene falls flat" misuse.
Cut the Kingdom Hearts example. It's just complaining and nitpicking with the trope shoehorned in. Pretty usual "x falls flat" misuse. Nothing about the example implies to me that the scene is funny.
I feel like song lyrics, especially for a lighthearted song, can't really fall into Narm, since they're not meant to be dramatic. Seems like "x falls flat" misuse to me. Again, doesn't seem funny, just underwhelming/lame. I'd say cut.
Maybe we could use a trope for things that fall flat, with narm being a sub-trope for things that fall flat because they're unintentionally funny. Just a suggestion.
The intention is good, but that would be waaay too much of a complaint-magnet.
Someone With a Computer
I was trying to say what I thought made the moment narmful. As in, looking back on it, it's hard to take it seriously. I could make it sound less like complaining if you want.
Someone With a Computer
How does this sound?
Xehanort's reveal to be Not Evil, Just Misunderstood would have hit a bit better if not for the fact that, before this, he was so Obviously Evil that the only thing missing was a big, neon sign that says "I'm not very nice." The sudden change of character is pretty bad by itself, but keep in mind that before this, Sora just watched this man murder his girlfriend in cold blood. He doesn't bring this up until after Xehanort goes to Keyblade Heaven, adding to the bits about Kairi above.
Is this any better? I may add a bit more, honestly. It's just the footnotes version. I promise it won't sound like complaining. I just kinda have that problem sometimes, where I sound like that.
Edited by SenorCornholio on Apr 17th 2019 at 9:07:17 AM
I'd say avoid phrases like "x is pretty bad by itself". I don't think it counts as Narm, though, just bad writing. It's like if there was a murder mystery and somebody added "The killer turning out to be the butler is pretty weak, since there's zero foreshadowing of this whatsoever." That's not Narm, because it isn't funny. Some people try to add in "this thing is laughably bad" into their entries to make it sound more valid, but that's just shoehorning, so it's still not an example. So I'd say it doesn't qualify as Narm, but that's just me.
EDIT: With regards to your entry, if you want to make sure it isn't complaining, try not to be snarky/quippy with the entry. Try writing an entry how you normally would, then just take out the snarky parts. Example: Xehanort's reveal to be Not Evil, Just Misunderstood contrasts heavily with him being Obviously Evil up to this point. Keep in mind that before this, Sora just watched this man murder his girlfriend in cold blood. [Last sentence seemed extraneous.]
I still don't think it's Narm, though.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Apr 18th 2019 at 5:37:06 AM
Are the following RWBY entries examples? I've pulled everything off the Narm.Web Animation page (5 entries) and the show's YMMV.RWBY page (6 entries). There are two overlaps between the two pages, where I think the YMMV page has the better write-up in both cases.
- RWBY:
- When Blake encounters Adam during the battle for Beacon, his first words are "Hello, my darling". Despite the fact that the school is burning down around them and Blake has just caught him red-handed, killing innocent people, the tone of his voice doesn't suit the dark, dramatic scene. Instead, he sounds like he's going to start singing "Hello, my baby! Hello, my honey! Hello, my ragtime gal!"
- This seems dependent on audience members who have seen the referenced show in question. Is an unintentional comparison to a different show 'falls flat'? I'm not sure if the entry is saying it's actually funny since I know nothing about the work it's being compared to. However, this entry is written in a different way on the show's YMMV page (see below) so I propose getting rid of this one.
- Also during the Battle for Beacon, the enormous ancient Grimm Dragon is treated with terror and dread, and it certainly fulfills that... except for the fact that rather than a deep, thunderous roar like you'd expect from a dragon, it makes squeaky screeches that make it sound and look more like a giant bat. Unless you're chiroptophobic or live in Gotham City, a giant bat isn't exactly as scary a concept as a dragon...
- The sound the dragon makes isn't squeaky in a similar manner to a bat. It's very typical of the screeching noise that sound effects teams use when trying to create a pterodactyl scream. This just seems like a 'falls flat' complaint.
- The Volume 4 intro sequence has a moment where Adam swipes at Blake with his sword, who raises her arms and seems to scream. Normally Adam plus Blake equals pure undistilled horror, but due to the animation and timing, the sequence is a bit goofy-looking.
- This is a really quick moment in the opening credits, but I think this is just saying the moment is lame rather than funny. There is a better written version of this example on the show's YMMV page (see below), so I propose getting rid of this one.
- The Nuckelavee in Volume 4 is treated as The Dreaded by the characters, but due to its stretching arms and spinning attack, a lot of fans have compared it to an Airdancer inflatable◊.
- Misuse of The Dreaded trope aside, this does show evidence that people did turn the scene into a gag, so I think this one counts. Also, when the show's Nightmare Fuel page was cleaned up on the relevant clean-up thread, it was accepted that the Nuckelavee has been both Nightmare Fuel and Nightmare Retardant to different portions of the fanbase at different stages of the season.
- Ozma being resurrected and then killed again in the Volume 6 episode "The Lost Fable" is hard to take seriously when the death is so similar to the "I don't feel so good" scene from Avengers: Infinity War.
- Again, very dependent on whether or not a person has seen the Avengers film for this entry to even make sense. I think this is another 'falls flat' entry. On the other hand, I have heard some people make jokes about it.
- When Blake encounters Adam during the battle for Beacon, his first words are "Hello, my darling". Despite the fact that the school is burning down around them and Blake has just caught him red-handed, killing innocent people, the tone of his voice doesn't suit the dark, dramatic scene. Instead, he sounds like he's going to start singing "Hello, my baby! Hello, my honey! Hello, my ragtime gal!"
- Narm:
- Blake's reaction to everyone finding out of not only her Faunus nature but also her ties to the White Fang is to simply bolt out of the room, which comes off as more of an "abandon thread" reaction than anything serious.
- This sounds like 'falls flat' than unintentionally funny.
- While he got better with time, Adam's voice acting since his debut in the "Black" trailer has been frequently criticized as being unintentionally hilarious, as it sounds like his VA is trying way too hard to sound "cool." This all came to a head in Volume 3 in "Battle of Beacon": Adam's one-liner when Blake runs into him ("Hello, my darling.") is extremely corny even though it's intended with a lot of malice.
- Now, this is the same scene that's described on the Narm page, but this one seems like a genuine keeper. If so, I can replace the other one with this example.
- Ozpin's fight with Cinder has him striking her multiple times with his cane, but the way its animated, the juggling nature of the hits makes it look like Cinder's dancing in place.
- This is badly worded, but I do remember the fandom having a lot of fun with this at the time, so I think it's a keeper, it just needs slight tweaking.
- A moment in the opening for Volume 4 has Blake fighting Adam, which is during the chorus where it usually has people doing badass things. Then Adam goes to her and there's a camera shot of Blake with her hands up screaming. It becomes hilarious despite the context of this scene.
- This is the same scene I've mentioned before. I still think this is shoehorning 'lame' into the trope, but at least this version is better worded. Possible keeper?
- During the opening of Volume 6, there's a moment where Salem screams at the screen in frustration in a shot focused entirely on her face. It's supposed to be a menacing moment; unfortunately, the position of her mouth (as well as the motion blur from the vibrating screen and how her teeth are only barely whiter than her pale skin making it hard to tell where her face ends and her teeth begin without pausing), combined with her hairstyle, accidentally makes her look somewhat similar to an axototl, making it a little hard to take seriously.
- I think this is suffering from context assumption and a forced comparison ('somewhat similar to' is weasel words, and I know what axolotl (correct spelling) look like). The referenced scene consists of her staring in a crystal ball, apparently at her subordinates, and then looking up and screaming. For the audience, who went into this season knowing her subordinates screwed up and anticipating her reaction, that's what this scene appears to be referencing. When the relevant episode airs, her scream turns out to be for something completely different and much more despairing. While the entry is right about the motion blur making the scene very lame, it's wrong to claim freeze-framing is necessary to see her teeth (they're easy to see). I therefore think this is an attempt at shoehorning a lame scene. But I'll go with what everyone else thinks.
- Ruby's speeches can be pretty goofy sounding when looked at critically, making them sound like generic shounen anime speeches. In particular is her speech in Volume 6, Chapter 9. While pretty motivational, it turns funny/stupid when Ruby declares that they never needed help from an adult, considering most of their major fights against Salem did require help from an adult.note Not helping matters is that soon after this, Ruby needed the help of an adult to save her from a Leviathan.
- I think this is a falls flat case. People either love or hate Ruby's speeches. I've seen detractors describe them as 'inaccurate', 'lame', 'eye roll worthy', 'entitled', 'condescending' and even 'arrogant', but not 'funny' or 'hilarious'. The entry itself appears conflicted as to whether the speech should be described as funny or stupid.
- Blake's reaction to everyone finding out of not only her Faunus nature but also her ties to the White Fang is to simply bolt out of the room, which comes off as more of an "abandon thread" reaction than anything serious.
The examples I think should be kept are as follows (with possible wording tweaks needed):
Definite Keepers
- While he got better with time, Adam's voice acting since his debut in the "Black" trailer has been frequently criticized as being unintentionally hilarious, as it sounds like his VA is trying way too hard to sound "cool." This all came to a head in Volume 3 in "Battle of Beacon": Adam's one-liner when Blake runs into him ("Hello, my darling.") is extremely corny even though it's intended with a lot of malice.
- Ozpin's fight with Cinder has him striking her multiple times with his cane, but the way its animated, the juggling nature of the hits makes it look like Cinder's dancing in place.
- The Nuckelavee in Volume 4 is treated as The Dreaded by the characters, but due to its stretching arms and spinning attack, a lot of fans have compared it to an Airdancer inflatable◊.
Possible Keepers
- A moment in the opening for Volume 4 has Blake fighting Adam, which is during the chorus where it usually has people doing badass things. Then Adam goes to her and there's a camera shot of Blake with her hands up screaming. It becomes hilarious despite the context of this scene.
- Ozma being resurrected and then killed again in the Volume 6 episode "The Lost Fable" is hard to take seriously when the death is so similar to the "I don't feel so good" scene from Avengers: Infinity War.
- During the opening of Volume 6, there's a moment where Salem screams at the screen in frustration in a shot focused entirely on her face. It's supposed to be a menacing moment; unfortunately, the position of her mouth (as well as the motion blur from the vibrating screen and how her teeth are only barely whiter than her pale skin making it hard to tell where her face ends and her teeth begin without pausing), combined with her hairstyle, accidentally makes her look somewhat similar to an axototl, making it a little hard to take seriously.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 23rd 2019 at 1:36:40 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Found these examples on Star Trek: Generations:
- Narm
- Picard crawling through a hole in the rock to get past the force field. On the commentary, Moore and Braga reveal that they struggled mightily to come up with a better way for him to do it within their deadline, then finally gave up.
- Also from the commentary, Moore and Braga marvel that no one on set or in the editing room caught Jonathan Frakes' flub about a "pretty big margin of error."
Short-Term Projects herald
Neither example is listed as funny. Cut, move to Creator's Apathy and Blooper respectively.
There is no Planet B
Ehm, Game of Thrones non-fans strike again.
I deleted a bunch of stuff, and other tropers too (mostly they were merely complaints), but I'd like a second opinions on these. Perhaps I am too much of a fan?
It concerns the latest episode, in case you don't want to be spoiled.
- 1) While the sequence where Arya evades the wights in Winterfell is certainly intense, it can be ruined a bit by the fact that it plays out like a perverse game of hide-and-seek.
- Ruined a bit. To me this does not seem silly or funny at all. It was executed well. Intense and scary.
- 2) When the Night King finally dies, Viserion and all the other wights drop dead. Several of the wights plop down from the parapets and other high places in an almost cartoony fashion.
- What? They fall down, and there were so many of them... I don't follow. Not Narm for me.
- 3) As Jon is moving through the battle to protect Bran, several wights who have attached themselves to Drogon are raining down. It looks more than a little silly.
- Again, not unintentionally funny to me. Everything can be silly if your intentions are to find it silly. Dead wights climbing a dragon, one of the greatest assets to the force of the living, was suitably intense and I'd say not played badly.
It all seems like unnecessary nitpicking.
(full disclosure: I sometimes laugh at the series, too, but merely because I enjoy some Game of Thrones memes way too much doesn't mean I'm gonna post every snark that comes into my head on Narm.Game Of Thrones. It seems like someone wants to fill the page with complaints, claiming/implying that everything the showrunners and actors do is silly, funny in a bad way or executed poorly.)
Edited by XFllo on Apr 29th 2019 at 4:41:36 AM
I agree that it seems like unnecessary nitpicking. The first one sounds especially contrived; most "hiding from a killer" scenarios are going to be "perverse hide and seek". Not sure about the other two without having seen the show, but I'm assuming it's stuff that isn't funny unless you're looking for things to complain about.
Do all YMMV tropes require some type of fan-consensus, or just certain ones, like Broken Base and Unintentionally Unsympathetic? 'Cause that would really help clean up the bad examples.
No, only ones that are about fandoms. Narm can be anyone's opinion, it doesn't have to be universal. However, the entries do have to make an argument for why the entry fits the trope criteria, which many examples unfortunately don't.
I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
Riot: Venom...Get in the rocket!
Nitpicking?Venom: No! We won't let you destroy this world!
Riot: Then die!
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM