Never Live It Down Cleanup

I’m surprised that there isn’t one of these for Never Live It Down, considering that it gets misused a lot on the wiki. I’ll start this thread off with this:

YMMV.Teen Titans

• After the episode "The Beast Within", a lot of fans could not forgive Robin (and to a lesser extent, the other Titans) for not only assuming the worst of Beast Boy despite it being clear he is Not Himself but also straight-up threatening to send him to jail if he could not provide evidence of his own innocence, which resulted in Beast Boy transforming into a werewolf again. The issue of Beast Boy feeling like the others don't respect him enough is also left unaddressed.

This feels like complaining to me. And I don’t see that many people demonizing Robin because of this episode.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 1st 2020 at 6:45:28 AM

Let’s look over some entries from NeverLiveItDown.Western Animation

• Pinky, Elmyra & the Brain: The followup to the previous entry, the entire show was this before it had even premiered, being an effort by the execs at Warner Brothers to turn Pinky and the Brain into a family sitcom-esque romp that forced Tiny Toons regular Elmyra into a central role. The very idea of this was panned by nearly everyone who worked on it, and in turn fans quickly came to regard Elmyra as an insufferable brat who stole the spotlight away from the original duo, essentially serving as nothing more than a third wheel. Elmyra quickly became one of the studio's most unpopular characters of the time, and the show itself was unceremoniously canceled before the end of its sole season. It also ended Steven Spielberg's longtime collaboration with Warner Brothers' animation arm.

• Doug will forever be known as the show The Nostalgia Critic hates because Doug is the Critic’s real name.

• On the topic of [Codename: Kids Next Door], Cartoon Network will never be able to live down passing up a reboot of the show, titled Galactic Kids Next Door for The Powerpuff Girls (2016) and Ben 10 (2016).

• On a meta level, the SpongeBob "fandom" will NEVER be able to forget the way they reacted towards certain post-movie episodes, especially ones on This Very Wiki and Deviantart, mainly due to how childish they were about it, how they stole most of their opinions from Mr. Enter, who in and of himself was exaggerating, the fact that they were talking about them years after they actually aired, and especially the way they treated writers of the show (which even Mr. Enter regrets and has tried to rectify). Although it's started to settle into a more peaceful state, with most of the haters giving up talking about it and the newer episodes being much better, there's still a terrible aftertaste in the SpongeBob community, at least when former haters aren't being ridiculed as a mere passing side comment.

• Teen Titans Go! will never live down becoming extremely Adored by the Network at the expense of Cartoon Network's other shows, especially the infamous December 2017 week-long marathon where the only thing being aired was it and 2 episodes of Steven Universe.

These like a real life example that happened under 25 years ago. Cut?

• The Fairly Oddparents: The episode "Home Wrecker" had Tootie admitting, through Suspiciously Specific Denial, that she tapped Timmy's phones. "Just the Two of Us!" had Trixie going insane and attempting to kill Timmy when the two were the last humans on Earth (dishonorable mention: "Class Clown" where she throws Timmy under the bus after he saved her from a man-eating plant). The detractors of both have not forgotten these incidents. And let's not forget, although in this case it's an example of the producers never living it down, the horrendous Wonderful Life Subversion episode, "It's A Wishful Life". It is still heavily criticized as one of the lowest points in the series.

The last sentence can be cut.

• Total Drama:
  • Gwen - both in-universe and out - will never live down being kissed by another girl's boyfriend. That one scene led to Gwen getting voted out and all her allies abandoning her, (Sierra even referring to her as the 'New Heather) even though she'd been a good friend and strong competitor up till then. In All-Stars, she is placed on the villain team entirely because of this, and becomes their Token Good Teammate.

Are in-universe and our examples allowed?

• On the more negative side of things, some of the more spiteful fans of the show will never forgive Robin for how he treated Beast Boy in “The Beast Within”. This in spite of everything good he has done before and since then.

Oof. I think I remembered adding this in a misguided crosswick. Cutting this old shame

• Spider-Man: The Animated Series - whole show, for the censorship issue. Yes, they couldn't say "die" or "kill," have Morbius suck blood, or have Spidey full-on punch anyone. But it seems that's all anyone says about it lately. In fact, it was an ambitious arc-based series with a lot of depth, emotion, surprises, and the portrayal of Venom that has impacted every adaptation since. Interviews with showrunner John Semper reveal that as it was on FOX - yeah, that Fox - it was a 24/7 battle to keep it that way. And just because they couldn't say "die" doesn't mean no one ever did die.

• Hardcore animation fans will never forgive Hallmark for the terrible way it treated the Filmation library while it had the rights.

These did happen 25 years ago, but I think these were added before the 25 years happened. Are they valid examples? The Hallmark example is also a ZCE.

• Superboy in Young Justice has yet to lose his Emo Teen label, despite the fact that he grew out of it after the first ten episodes and lost it completely in Season 2.
  • Well, he was still a little emo in season 2, albeit for different reasons since the subplot of Superman refusing to accept him got swept under the rug his angst was re-directed towards a very ugly breakup with Ms. Martian.

Natter much?

• The 2016 reboot of the series started off referencing (often dated) internet memes and having many Off-Model moments (including some that were "how-could-they-miss-that" levels of blatant). This has completely tainted the show's reputation in the eyes of the fandom, and it's unlikely that the sting will go away any time soon.

In addition to being a real life example, this is speculative troping.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Feb 28th 2020 at 6:07:54 AM

Cut everything save for the Doug example.

The following Never Live It Down should be zapped.

• Any that fail to explain why it is an unfair exaggeration of what is supposed to be a minor moment.
• Any against RL groups or individuals less than 25 years old (which tend to violate the unfair exaggeration criteria).

Should this be added to Square Peg, Round Trope? And should it only apply to characters? (As it's only about exaggerated moment a whole work or episode can't be this as it's not a moment. It would only count as a moment agains the RL creators which has the 25 year issue.)

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 1st 2020 at 10:34:47 AM

Question, if some of the more meta examples are valid, and they are over 25 years old, do they go in the Real Life folder or should they be kept on the respective medium folder?

Also, why keep the Doug example? NC first referenced his dislike for Doug due to being associated with him around the late-noughts, so I think we should wait 25 years after that statement before determining if it was an example or not.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 1st 2020 at 2:58:20 PM

I think this is supposed to be "fans act like the character has no personality beyond a one-time thing," not "go-to moment that complainers point out" as I originally thought.

Can you please edit the OP to link to the actual page for convenience sake?

You mean a link to Never Live It Down, like I just added to the original post? Because I did that.

Some NeverLiveItDown.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic examples that don’t sit with me:

These examples all raise an eyebrow for me, at least according to Ferot’s criteria (and a bit of uncertainty on my part). They don’t explain how they’re unfairly exaggerated, try to justify the example, are meta examples, are general, or are just complaining. What do you guys think?

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 1st 2020 at 6:58:22 AM

Yes, thanks.

I think before we look at all these examples, we should pause and actually figure out what does and doesn't count as NLITD.

Grotad said:

Is this true? I think it's a little more like "fans flanderize a character based on a moment that sticks out to them", not necessarily that it's their entire personality. Def not about complaining, though.

@PlasmaPower My thought's on the MLP examples.

• "Sweetie Belle gained a reputation as The Ditz": Valid as it was a single moment, but the rest sarges with itself so cut.
• "A Canterlot Wedding": Cut Twilight Sparkle as a majority of the fanworks it spawned take her side in this debate and it seems mutually exclusive with the NLID against the rest. Keep Shining Armor as it admits his actions may have been due to being brainwashed. I'll add context to explain how Twilight's friends and Celestia actions are exaggerated. Cut Luna and Remember the New Guy as nothing explains the exaggeration and they were overshadowed by the other NILP examples.
• "Feeling Pinkie Keen": cut as failing to explain the exaggeration and the entry notes it was able to live it down.
• "The Mysterious Mare Do Well": Notes it was the only time, but is to focused on the com plaints as written so cut.
• "Flutter Brutter": Keep as it notes it was an incorrect interpretation from previews.
• "locking up a filly in Tartarus" and "Cozy Glow, Tirek and Queen Chrysalis ultimately being Taken for Granite": keep as it list a huge list of atrocities they are unrepentant for arguing that the backlash agains their fates is unfair.
• "show eventually began to suffer from spoiler backlash": Cut as RL per 25 year rule. (This is why I think it should only apply to character as RL agains the work tends to be misuse missing the exaggeration explanation.
• "the Princesses (and even the heroes themselves, at times) will never live down being constantly used for The Worf Effect." Cut as missing the exaggeration explanation.
• "just how easy it was for the other Princesses to be captured": Might be valid as it was only possible due to specialized items. But so negative as written cut for now.
• "Rainbow Dash performing a Sonic Rainboom" Objective fact not exaggeration, cut.

Thought: Can NLIP (something fans don't ignore even if they should or want to) overlap with Fanon Discontinuity (something fans do ignore)? Maybe if some ignore and some NLID.

So thought's on making NILP only apply to groups/characters?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 1st 2020 at 6:24:55 AM

I'd be down for making it apply to characters only. Never Live It Down is just so broad of a name, it just invites meta examples like that, and most of them turn out bad.

Also for putting Never Live It Down in Square Peg, Round Trope.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 1st 2020 at 10:24:08 AM

Same here. I've mentioned making this In-Universe Examples Only, but any sort of restrictions here work too.

Here's what I'm adding to Square Peg, Round Trope:

• NeverLiveItDown is for characters best known for what supposed to be a brief or minor moment but is oft used for complaining. Entries must explain why those reputations or moments are unfairly exaggerated. It also only applies to characters or groups, as entire works are not moments. Any use of this trope applied to RealLife individuals or groups [[Administrivia/NoRecentExamplesPlease require 25 years, 10 months for sports, since the moment]] to prove it wasn't lived down.

Any changes or additions?

Sounds good to me.

• Never Live It Down: The company has earned the ire of fans (mainly towards their anime branch) in their later years, due to licensing series and suddenly stopping in the middle of their releases (most infamously with Monster), and concentrating on distributing Bleach, Naruto and little else. Granted, they can finish the releases of some shorter series on occasion (as was the case for Kekkaishi and the 90s Hunter × Hunter TV series).

Why does YMMV.Viz Media exist anyway?

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 1st 2020 at 1:41:32 PM

It won't exist for much longer. I cutlisted it.

From the Fire Emblem section on NeverLiveItDown.Video Games:

• Fire Emblem: Three Houses brings us yet another immolation victim in the form of Bernadetta, who is burned to death at Gronder Field on some routes. At this point, if any Fire Emblem character is set on fire, that'll be what they're remembered for.

This is far from being the main thing Bernadetta(spoiled out character) is known for, and the example doesn't explain why this moment is unfairly exaggerated. There's also a wall of text earlier in the same section that appears to be thinly-veiled complaining about there being too many Fire Emblem characters in Super Smash Bros. which I also brought up on the Complaining Cleanup Thread.

This is on Onward:

Never Live It Down: Even before its release, the film became primarily remembered for Disney announcing that it contained their "first openly LGBTQ character," even though said character only has several seconds of screentime as well as this being the seventh time that they've promoted having a "first" LGBTQ character. This has unfairly tainted the reputation of the film, seeing as how it was a mistake on Disney's part and not the actual filmmakers.

Is this an example or no?

Nope, NLID is about a character's actions.

About NLID applying to characters. What about groups of characters? How big is too big to count if at all? There's an ATT on the issue.

NeverLiveItDown.Real Life (which has far more stringent standards) has Places, Countries, and Organizations. I'd say groups are allowable as they are composed of characters and get treated as characters on Character pages (listing tropes that apply to them in general which NLID would be as it's an unfair generalization). The characters only is to prevent NLID from being applied to works all examples of which were misuse. Thoughts on this?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Apr 1st 2020 at 12:34:59 PM

Groups of characters are allowed, yes.

NeverLiveItDown.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic:

• Sunset Shimmer herself has become known quite a bit for this issue, despite being the victim and forgiving the Human CMC at the end of the story. To see some Fix Fics or Betrayal Fics tell it, Sunset will never get over being framed for being Anon-A-Miss by the Human CMC or for her friends betraying her. Even though Sunset truly was innocent in the cyberbullying, her reputation still had a long way to go before she was accepted by the rest of Canterlot High School, and Sunset openly admits she can see why people think it was her. Yet to hear some fanfics tell it, Sunset is incredulous that her friends wouldn't believe her (even though the Rainbooms did defend Sunset at first until evidence pointed towards her), demonizing the Rainbooms while sanctifying Sunset. Some fics even have Sunset be Driven to Suicide by the accusation, in spite of the fact that she ends the comic in a good place with the Rainbooms. Even fan works that don't revolve around the Anon-A-Miss story have been known to bring it up.

Never Live It Down is "narrowly define them based on one action or event". This sounds like fans inventing an event as opposed to exaggerating an event as she never behaved like what fans treat her as (Common Knowledge might fit better). This is exaggerating how others treated her which is already listed. Should I move the points to them?

Here's an issue on My Little Pony The Movie(2017) I would like to discuss. The Storm King is often criticized as being a weak villain who got beaten too easily, but on the contrary, the Storm King was not one to give up easily, as he had to endure and jump off a large pile of rocks to try and get the Staff of Sacanas back before the Mane Six, as they formed a chain together, could. And both Twilight and Tempest almost died to defeat him, which was, off all things considered, far from easy. And furthermore, his Family-Unfriendly Death surely left quite an impact.

Edited by BrianKT on Apr 13th 2020 at 8:38:45 AM

What do you guys think of this write up I made for Sonic Forces?

• This game solidified Classic Sonic as everything wrong with the Modern era in the eyes of many fans, being put into everything Sonic related for nostalgia-pandering. This of course, ignores how games such as Sonic Generations and Sonic Mania featured Classic Sonic, and got positive reception despite it, with those games having better implementations of him.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Apr 19th 2020 at 6:08:37 AM