Broken Base Cleanup

From YMMV.Green Arrow.

Broken Base: While fans were happy about the Rebirth series finally addressing what happened between Ollie and Roy, some of those fans were also not happy that Roy's backstory was made oddly similar to Jason Todd's backstory; homeless before he tried to steal from Ollie. Likewise, they weren't happy that Roy was now raised on a Spokane Indian reservation instead of a Navajo reservation, as though the tribes are interchangeable. Even the most critically panned stories from the New 52 were at least consistent with mentioning that Roy was raised on a Navajo reservation. While you could argue that this change was made to keep Roy closer to Oliver's home of Seattle, as the Spokane reside in Washington while the Navajo live in the southwest, it still is a controversial change nonetheless. There were also those who disliked the retcon on why Roy left the reservation. Originally, his adopted father sent him to live with Ollie because he was dying of liver cancer, while here, Roy was framed for his adopted father's death and kicked out of the reservation because he was too drunk to remember if he did it or not. He didn't. Fans felt this added unnecessary drama to Roy's backstory and didn't like that he was now already an alcoholic before he met Ollie.

Its largely onesided to the negative. Remove?

That bit in the Pokemon entry about capitalization is absolutely a thing, although it seems to just be a few very loud people on Fanfiction.net. I had no idea it could be such a Berserk Button until someone commented on one of my fics and linked me to this thread. It's...something.

You're right that it's probably too fringe to qualify for Broken Base, though.

Edited by SapphireBlue on Feb 13th 2019 at 9:34:36 AM

All I see is:

"You're doing it wrong."

"That's how official material does it."

"They're also doing it wrong."

Also, the Wikipedia argument isn't completely correct. Wikipedia actually used to capitalize real life animals' names a decade or so ago, and while Japanese doesn't have capital letters, katakana is often used to write species' names in formal contexts instead of kanji (the Japanese Wikipedia does this even today), and the former's also used to write Pokémon names in Japanese. Also, "animal", "cat", and "dog", which are mentioned in the Broken Base entry, are broad names and not specific species names, but... well, back to late '00s Wikipedia, we have this and this.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 21st 2019 at 1:32:03 PM

Found this example from The Greatest Showman which seems to be more of a divide between the work's fans and the work's detractors, rather than it's fanbase as a whole. Also it mentions that viewers have tried to Take a Third Option which violates the rule that a Broken Base should have no middle ground.:

• Broken Base: As is standard, the Artistic License – History that the film employs. Some call They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot while others prefer to enjoy it with a dose of the MST3K Mantra. After Word of God announced that the movie was intended to be the kind of movie Barnum would make about himself, quite a few people have almost decided now to Take a Third Option and say that while it's a shame it's not more historically accurate, there is already a more accurate musical about the life of P.T. Barnum and this movie is perfectly enjoyable for what it is.

That should be cut for being about the movie's overall reception and violating the "no middle ground" requirement.

Edited by ADrago on Feb 28th 2019 at 3:58:27 PM

and So... we agree that capitalization is a fringe issue?

Reposting my Pokemon cleanup for the new page.

I'm still waiting for feedback on:

• If "favorite installment wars" are a Broken Base issue, and not a better fit for some other ymmv trope
• Pokemon cries (leaning towards cut though.)
• Mechanics being cut and readded
• Too many Legendaries (Thought this was an easy cut before, but now I'm not so sure.)
• Any other feedback before I start making edits.

Edited by mrbits on Feb 28th 2019 at 3:58:25 AM

Yes, I think it's definitely a fringe issue, especially when some other RPG series, like Dragon Quest (at least after Square and Enix merged), don't completely capitalize character and item names, meaning Pokémon's style is intentional.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 28th 2019 at 11:05:19 AM

YMMV.Harvest Moon has a lengthy Broken Base section:

• 64, the cult classic that is considered one of the N64's best games, or Back To Nature, the "transfer" which lead way to the current characterizations of the 64 characters?
• If you want to ask "Which is better: Tree of Tranquility or Animal Parade?", we suggest you take out a new life insurance policy first. A large portion of the debate seems to be because of Casual-Competitive Conflict.
• The fandom has gotten a bunch of new fans due to the recent games, especially the Bishōnen driven post-Tree of Tranquility games. This has caused conflict between older fans and modern fans. Are the newer games losing their "Harvest Moon" feeling? Are fans too boy crazy?
• The announcement of The Lost Valley caused some of this. Some fans were interested in the game and waited to hear more of it before passing judgment, while others are angry at Natsume for using Harvest Moon as a title for a game that's not actually part of the Bokujou Monogatari series, and are worried that this move will hurt the sales of Story of Seasons (2014), which is a Bokujou Monogatari game. It turned out that nope, it wasn't hurt at all. Story of Seasons sold 100,000 copies in four months after being released.

The only arguments I see within the fandom are "Do the Natsume games suck or not?" and "Has the series gone downhill since [x]?", with only the latter one being actually common. Even then, I don't think it's Broken Base-level of argumentative.

The last one sounds like it's describing a pure knee-jerk reaction, since it's about a prerelease announcement and not the actual games. Plus, the part about Story of Seasons' sales sounds like it's saying it fizzled out.

From YMMV.Dexters Laboratory:

• Over the 3rd and 4th seasons. Many fans think they're completely terrible, while some feel that the later seasons have their moments even if they pale in comparison to the older episodes.
• "Dexter vs. Santa's Claws" is either considered funny for Dexter getting into a brawl with Santa or one of the show's lowest points for Dexter ruining Christmas and the episode giving the Family-Unfriendly Aesop that Christmas is only about the presents.
• Many fans find "Dexter and Computress Get Mandark" to be one of the funniest episodes due to being a completely nonsensical story written by a six-year-old boy, but there are some who find the episode's existence to be a horrible mistake for the same reasons.

None of those strike me as valid. The first bullet point is classic complaining "this is terrible but some (wrong) people don't mind it." The second two are overly narrow— fanbases very seldom get truly broken over one controversial episode— and don't do a good job of describing two opposing camps with little or no middle ground.

The first example mentions that the fandom generally agrees that the third and fourth seasons are inferior to the first two even if some fans think they have their moments, so it should be cut since the latter side isn't strong enough. As for the second and third, maybe keep if both sides feel strongly enough.

The Avengers: "The fanbase is pretty much irreversibly split on Brian Michael Bendis' contributions to the franchise, let alone the John Byrne Avengers West Coast run."

It says that the fanbase is split, yes, but does not explain why. It does not explain the merits seen by supporters nor the flaws seen by detractors. Even more, it's just one sentence but it talks about two artists with their own runs, and who should have their own entries (with their specific explanations, of course).

Does someone know how to expand this, or should we simply remove it?

I've started a thread to deal with tropes / Audience Reactions / whatever that either have mandatory waiting periods associated with them, or have been suggested to have mandatory waiting periods added. This is one of the tropes under discussion.

I have question on the six-month rule. If something comes out effecting a Broken Base (or Base-Breaking Character), do we need to wait six months after that something to add that?

There has been lots of drama involving Geometry Dash, to the point where it's worth adding more entries in YMMV.Geometry Dash. Here are the potential entries:

• The FPS Bypass has been a major point of controversy in the Geometry Dash community, as the FPS bypass can allow monitors with low refresh rates (60hz) to have the same reaction time and physics as with a 144hz monitor, which is what experienced players used. On one hand, supporters of this say it's an alternative to buying an expensive 144hz monitor and it can allow harder demon levels to be accessed by anyone, due to those requiring a faster reaction time. On another hand, many, including the creators of this themselves have dismissed it as an another hacking tool, as it modifies the game, just like any other hacking tools in the player's favor.
• The #levelution movement set up by Optical, became very controversial, as many against it had thought lowering the standards for levels would cause the decline of the quality of GD levels. Many aspects of the movement were praised by supporters and criticized by detractors, such as the reduction of lag in levels (levels that don't go over the object limit of 40000 and 80000), which despite being praised as making levels more accessable to more devices, brought creators building primarily object heavy levels against the movement. The requirement of "good gameplay" is also another point of contention, with supporters saying the gameplay of the level should be fun and enjoyable (and not annoying), whilst detractors claiming it would lead to the lack of diversity of the gameplay (Skill Demons, Timing Demons, Memory Demons).

Also, are there any problems with this existing entry?

Broken Base: What is the hardest official Demon? Clubstep, Theory of Everything 2, or Deadlocked?

Edited by SEA2000 on Mar 14th 2019 at 2:51:28 AM

Found this on Prelude to Axanar:

• Broken Base: The entire debacle that caused fan productions to be Screwed by the Lawyers. The most angry and vocal have constantly called out CBS and Paramount for being "threatened" by the project, especially with both Star Trek Beyond and Star Trek: Discovery being made, and claimed that they did all of this to shut down "superior" works by fans. The more calm and collected of these people have pointed out that it wouldn't have gotten this far had Peters decided not to essentially use the Star Trek name to buy his way into being legitimate. They've also pointed out that the creator of Star Trek: New Voyages was given permission from the two companies to allow paid tours of his "Desilu" studios, and that CBS had previously told YouTube to drop a copyright claim against Star Trek Continues (filed by a third party).

From YMMV.The LEGO Movie:

• There's also a handful of people that feel that the film's Sequel Hook interferes with the otherwise complete ending. It's mostly because it sets up a sudden plot thread for a quick joke instead of bringing more of a closure to the film. Naturally there are those that found it clever and ridiculously funny and like it for that.

Now that the sequel has actually come out, it sounds like how much you like/dislike it would greatly affect which side of this "base" you'd join, so does it still feel noteworthy?

I'm not sure that entry does a good job conveying the "vicious conflict" part of Broken Base.

What about the others listed on that page?

How about these entries under Bioshock Infinite? No less than 12 entries. I already removed one that was basically "Before the game came out, some people didn't want to play it because it was too different from the previous two."

A lot of these seem valid at first glance, so I'd like some feedback.

I haven't played Infinite yet and I'm not really familiar with the Bioshock fandom. But those examples don't sound like vicious and sustained conflicts. At least cut the one with " DLC is probably be the last Bio Shock game".

• Broken Base: John's hair in the epilogue is literally just Arthur's hair but black. This has quite a large portion of fans peeved, especially since a few NP Cs (such as some members of the Del Lobos gang) have John's signature hairstyle taken from his 1899 model. Some are even reported to have different styles to it, which further raises the question as to why Rockstar didn't give John his natural hair now that he's playable. This isn't really a big deal to others, though.

This sounds like another "It sucks but some people don't mind". May I cut?

Red Dead Redemption 2 hasn't even been out for 6 months yet, so cut the entry. It came out in October 26, 2018, so Broken Base entries can only be written once we reach April 26, 2018.

From The Legend of Korra: Turf Wars:

• Broken Base: Despite this comic going in depth as to what led up to Korra getting into a relationship with Asami, Korra's relationship with Asami is still divisive. On one hand, it's seen as forward thinking and progressive, but others believe it was completely unnecessary to give Korra a love interest after Book 2, feeling Asami already played The Not-Love Interest role very well in Book 3 and should've kept her as that—being someone of emotional support for Korra without being romantically involved.

This isn't specific to the comic, so it seems like this belongs on the YMMV page for the show (which already has an entry covering this). It also suffers from the classic problem of explaining one side of the divide more than the other. And this is anecdotal, but most people still in the fandom seem to have accepted the existence of Korra and Asami's relationship, with most debate being over how it's portrayed. There are still people critical of the idea, but the divide isn't large or vocal enough to be Broken Base (again in my experience). What do you guys think?

The Bioshock entry about people being mad about Burial at Sea fails to mention that the DLC was a Torch the Franchise and Run moment that cut off a lot of potential plot branches. That's why it pissed off the fans who think that the devs made it just because the rights to Bioshock were being transferred to a different team and they didn't want that team having room to make more games in the franchise. Just thought I'd provide some context there, because the entry as written has none of that explanation.

Edited by PhiSat on Apr 15th 2019 at 2:26:29 AM