Works being used as tropes (tropers don't read)

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu

#26: Mar 22nd 2013 at 9:44:09 AM

That will need namespacing, followed by a disambiguation or somesuch.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

LordGro from Germany Since: May, 2010

#27: Mar 22nd 2013 at 1:22:02 PM

I have noticed a problem that is related to the subject of this thread, so I might just bring it up here:

There are pages for staples of Public Domain Soundtrack and Standard Snippets where it's not clear whether they are supposed to be tropes or work pages. I have noticed the problem on Ride Of The Valkyries, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Carmina Burana and Ode To Joy so far.

The former three have been moved to the Music/ namespace, but they all look like they were originally written up as tropes, with a list of examples in media. You can argue that the use of these very well-known pieces of music in media is a trope, after all.

There's a similar ambiguity with "stock verses" like Roses Are Red, Violets Are Blue... and Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep.

edited 22nd Mar '13 1:27:11 PM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu

#28: Mar 22nd 2013 at 1:24:13 PM

I think we have precedent for such tropes - May the Farce Be with You and similar things.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu

World's Toughest Milkman

#29: Mar 30th 2013 at 2:07:43 PM

Found another one. Gentlemen Prefer Blondes was being used as a trope, so I made it into a disambiguation page.

eta: having now finished fixing all the wicks, I'd estimate around 20-25% misuse for a trope for this one. The trope I put on the disambig page (Everyone Loves Blondes) isn't a perfect fit for the misuse, but it seems to be as close as we get. If anyone knows of another that might work, feel free....

edited 30th Mar '13 3:13:13 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

MetaFour Since: Jan, 2001

#30: Apr 1st 2013 at 12:17:19 PM

There are pages for staples of Public Domain Soundtrack and Standard Snippets where it's not clear whether they are supposed to be tropes or work pages.

I was the one who launched Also Sprach Zarathustra, and it was meant to be a tope. When works use the "Sunrise" movement, they're either saying "This is awesome. Be impressed," or they're saying "This is a 2001: A Space Odyssey parody. Laugh." That's what the article is about.

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009

Dragon Writer

#31: Apr 5th 2013 at 6:41:50 PM

Does anyone think this could be Projects (short or long term) material?

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu

#32: Apr 6th 2013 at 2:21:08 AM

I agree that it's short term material.

edited 6th Apr '13 2:21:55 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu

World's Toughest Milkman

#33: Apr 6th 2013 at 2:26:10 AM

The Shapeshifter (a series of childrens novels) had about 40% misuse as a trope. I made it a disambiguation page, but there's too many tropes on our Shapeshifting index to pick just one, or even a few, so I just pointed to the whole index. In fact, I had to comment out a few examples, because there simply wasn't enough context to know which of the many possible tropes was intended.

Project? Most of the ones I've come across have been pretty easy to deal with. I originally intended this more as an information-and-advice thread. But I certainly won't object if that's what people want.

edited 6th Apr '13 2:26:20 AM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

LordGro from Germany Since: May, 2010

#34: Apr 10th 2013 at 4:23:00 AM

I think Ride Of The Valkyries, Also sprach Zarathustra, Ode To Joy should all moved back to the Main/ namespace. They are designed as trope pages.

The same goes for Carmina Burana, but I tend to think the name should actually be O Fortuna (which is what "that one" snippet is actually called).

By extension, I would treat Roses Are Red, Violets Are Blue... and Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep the same way.

That would mean to remove these pages from all work indices. Theoretically it's possible to make separate work pages for the music/verses, but I suppose we don't have enough music tropes to make that worth the effort (and the verses likewise are too short).

Can I go through with this or does someone hold a different view?

Edit: Just occurred to me — should we rename these tropes so they don't have the exact same name as the works they reference? Like, Ride Of The Valkyries Snippet instead of Ride Of The Valkyries, so to make it immediately clear that it is a trope, not a work?

edited 10th Apr '13 4:34:02 AM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009

Dragon Writer

#35: Apr 10th 2013 at 5:23:49 PM

Those are about using musical snippets, right?

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu

World's Toughest Milkman

#36: Apr 11th 2013 at 4:23:46 AM

I think Using Musical Snippets might be a decent trope, but I don't think that each piece of music that might get...snippetized needs a separate trope page, so if we're to have a page on those works, I think they should indeed be work pages, not trope pages.

It smacks a bit too much of our Pocky page, which just got sent to the cut list from TRS. Yes, it's a type of candy that gets referenced in a lot of works. It's still not a trope.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

MorganWick (Elder Troper)

#37: Apr 11th 2013 at 7:16:28 AM

Generally, however, musical snippets are used for a particular purpose, which is a trope.

Lophotrochozoa Since: May, 2012

#38: Apr 11th 2013 at 7:24:53 AM

We already have Standard Snippet.

edited 11th Apr '13 7:25:55 AM by Lophotrochozoa

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009

Dragon Writer

#39: Apr 11th 2013 at 9:14:27 AM

So how come Standard Snippet doesn't actually mention any of those specific songs? (Well, it does now :) )

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

LordGro from Germany Since: May, 2010

#40: Apr 11th 2013 at 11:05:57 AM

It did already, in the "The Classics" folder.

I discovered more pages with similar issues on the Shout-Outs Index: Happy Birthday to You!, Amazing Freaking Grace, Jeopardy! Thinking Music, Lohengrin and Mendelssohn. Actually, that whole index consists mostly of stock allusions to/citations of popular works.

As a side note, there are also certain works pages (often fairy tales or poems) with lists about references/allusions in media: "Jabberwocky, "Jack and the Beanstalk", "Tam Lin". For some of such popular work references, we have specific tropes (Alice Allusion, Little Red Fighting Hood, Little Dead Riding Hood), but theoretically we could make many more tropes of this kind.

edited 11th Apr '13 11:14:30 AM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu

#41: Apr 26th 2013 at 1:16:00 AM

Noting Harvey Birdman Attorney At Law since it seems to have some examples like that.

Also Gundam since it apparently it has some uses outside of Gundam.

edited 27th Apr '13 3:07:06 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu

#42: Jun 11th 2013 at 1:02:45 PM

Also noting that God Of War is seeing some use for the War God trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009

Dragon Writer

#43: Jun 12th 2013 at 8:03:57 PM

Disambig? ...Wait, it currently is.

edited 12th Jun '13 8:04:14 PM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

FELH2 TV Tropes' very wikibot Since: May, 2012

TV Tropes' very wikibot

#44: Jul 6th 2013 at 10:25:20 AM

Here is a list of (potentially) problematic work pages. Some of them have an obvious alternative, others... don't.

Where the trope to use instead is clear:

Where the trope to use instead is not that clear:

edited 6th Jul '13 10:27:01 AM by FELH2

Get rid of the walled garden

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012

There is no Planet B

#45: Jul 9th 2013 at 12:32:51 PM

I once saw I Want To Go Home listed for homesickness. It that case it was You Can't Go Home Again, but I'm not sure we have a trope for feeling homesick in a more general way.

edited 9th Jul '13 12:33:04 PM by XFllo

Duckay from Australia Since: Jan, 2001