#702: Dec 23rd 2022 at 7:34:39 AM
Okay, my trim:
- The first season of Fantastic Four: The Animated Series contained low quality animation (provided by Kennedy Cartoons and Wang Film Productions), storylines that were seen as lacking the wit, drama and characterization of the original comics, and exposition-heavy dialogue. The show was retooled for its second season, changing its animation studio to Philippine Animation Studio Inc., replacing Ron Friedman with Tom Tataranowicz as the showrunner and boasting more mature, dramatic narratives. However, the show was cancelled at the end of season 2.
Edited by FernandoLemon on Dec 24th 2022 at 7:37:06 AM
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Nen_desharu
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto
Since: Aug, 2020
Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#703: Dec 23rd 2022 at 12:51:49 PM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Replace "Sadly" with "However" from the last paragraph. There's no need to editorialize.
Edited by Nen_desharu on Dec 23rd 2022 at 8:59:34 AM
Kirby is awesome.
#704: Dec 23rd 2022 at 1:21:31 PM
Oh yeah, woops, that slipped past my radar. Fixed.
I'd like to apologize for all this.
RandomTroper123
She / Her
from I'll let you guess...
(Not-So-Newbie)
Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#705: Dec 23rd 2022 at 8:39:34 PM
(x3) I'd try to make it sound less like complaining via changing "that lacked" to "that are considered to lack". (I get it's rather small, however, complaining is considered a no-no.) It's good otherwise, though.
#706: Dec 23rd 2022 at 8:41:10 PM
Any thoughts on (x6)?
RandomTroper123
She / Her
from I'll let you guess...
(Not-So-Newbie)
Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#707: Dec 23rd 2022 at 8:45:23 PM
I'd hide the similarities he has in a note and delete the semicolon (though the last part of the sentence might need to be tweaked). I'd also fix "Not to mention" to "Also," (or something like that) because that's Administrivia.Word Cruftnote and hide the names of his female allies in another note.
I'm unsure about the rest of it, though, besides maybe deleting the detail that Asuka is more of an experienced powerhouse than him.
#708: Dec 24th 2022 at 2:40:18 AM
x3 Thanks. It's added.
RandomTroper123
She / Her
from I'll let you guess...
(Not-So-Newbie)
Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#709: Dec 24th 2022 at 3:11:49 PM
You're welcome and I'm glad I could help.
offa
Since: Jan, 2018
#710: Dec 24th 2022 at 4:01:27 PM
I've implemented Clare's version
of FranchiseOriginalSin.Doctor Who.
#711: Dec 26th 2022 at 5:37:09 AM
Found this jumbo one at Elden Ring:
- Fourth Wall Myopia: Some players complain that Melina gets angry at you and refuses to speak to you ever again if you inherit the Frenzied Flame to spare her life by burning the Erdtree in her stead, because you can later purge the Frenzied Flame from yourself with Miquella's Needle, preventing any of the negative effects of becoming its host. A particular point of contention is that you can even have that item in your inventory when Melina makes her declaration, so she's supposedly being illogical for still insisting that you not use the Flame. The problem with that logic is that neither your character nor Melina have any way of knowing you can purge the Flame at that point in the game. The first item that might point you at Miquella's Needle is a merchant note from earlier in the game, and it does indeed say that the needle can ward off the outer gods and avert the fate of the Lord of Chaos... but when you actually get the needle (by trading it with Malenia's rebirth flower for her own Unalloyed Gold Needle), it does no such thing, because the needle is unfinished. In order for it to work you have to implement twisted time by using it in front of Dragonlord Placidusax, and there's no way to get to him until after you inherit the Flame, burn down the Erdtree, and cause Melina to leave. Furthermore, while the item's description tells you all of this, in-universe your character never even gets confirmation that they're supposed to use it this way. The only thing that would even lead you to connect the needle and Placidusax is that flower-Malenia gives you one of Placidusax's scales along with it in the aforementioned trade, which could be taken as a hint to go use the needle in his presence. Essentially you're risking the destruction of all life everywhere forever based solely on a vague hint and a hunch, which would be more than enough reason for Melina to disparage you even if it does end up working.
fragglelover
Since: Jun, 2012
#712: Dec 28th 2022 at 6:58:53 PM
This is on Why, Charlie Brown, Why?:
They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character: In a wider Peanuts sense. By the end of their trials and travails, Linus and Janice have become a Puppy Love couple; if not an actual "item", at the very least they should remain an incredibly important part of each others' lives, right? Unfortunately, in future Peanuts works Janice vanished; she didn't become a regular at all in the strip's final years, and she didn't even really cameo in the later Peanuts specials. This really felt weird to the 90s Peanuts fans, who figured Janice was going to become a regular on at least the level of someone like Pig Pen or Schroeder and they could add more to her character. This also had the unfortunate effect of codifying another aspect of the Very Special Episode that people find annoying: the tendency for the character in question to fall off the face of the earth after the episode is done. Janice did later reappear in updated productions of the musical You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown, but only as a non-speaking, background character; it's possible it's not even the same Janice.
themayorofsimpleton
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
from Elsewhere
(Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#713: Dec 29th 2022 at 2:15:16 AM
This also had the unfortunate effect of codifying another aspect of the Very Special Episode that people find annoying: the tendency for the character in question to fall off the face of the earth after the episode is done.
That at least is inaccurate—the Long-Lost Uncle Aesop has been around longer than just this special. This special did not "codify" that trope—if nothing else, that can go.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
#714: Jan 6th 2023 at 1:00:38 PM
The first folder just needs a bit of trimming. The second needs a serious shortening and rewriting. While I believe there's a valid entry there, it's so riddled with complaining that I'm tempted to just delete the entire thing and call it a day.
Bringing up a couple of things - a Periphery Demographic entry for Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken! and a massive Broken Aesop rant for Zap Dramatic.
Periphery Demographic
- Despite being aimed more for people with an interest in learning about anime production, Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken! has garnered a surprisingly large following among the neurodivergent community, especially once the anime adaptation began airing, thanks to two of its lead characters, Midori Asakusa and Tsubame Mizusaki, embodying a large number of characteristics common among autistic people and people with ADHD (particularly the former). While Asakusa and Mizusaki are never actually specified to have a neurological condition, the similarities have made them characters with whom autistic viewers and viewers with ADHD tend to identify and embrace, and a number of autistic fans even headcanon them as being autisticnote . It helps that these traits are never used to paint Asakusa or Mizusaki as "weird" or worthy of scorn, but are rather treated as just part of who they are, being counteracted and complemented by their passion for animation (with their skills in the field being shown as the result of years of practice rather than being inherent talents) as well as the two being able to realistically connect and make friends with each other and with the show's other lead, Sayaka Kanamori, a far cry from stereotypical depictions of neurodivergent individuals not only in the west, but also and especially Japan (particularly in regards to autism, the stereotypes about which in Japanese society are still rooted in outdated and debunked theories from the 1950's). The fact that author Sumito Owara revealed in 2019 and 2020 that he's autistic and has ADHD also factors into this to an extent.
Broken Aesop
- Zap Dramatic's games are intended to teach players how to negotiate with people. In this regard, it fails spectacularly, with its bizarre and improbable characters and events. Winning the game doesn't seem like a matter of one's skill in negotiations, since there's generally only one highly improbable, incredibly specific situation that's considered successful that can usually only come from one or two conversation paths. Among others:
- Ambition in particular seems to excuse Ted's atrocities just because he's the supposed victim of an immoral wife. Despite the fact he tried to blow up an office building and essentially commit a mass murder as soon as his wife and kids disappear. This is made worse by the fact that, despite all the evidence he gives you to suggest otherwise, he's canonically considered sane, which is treated as if it means he is somehow not responsible for his own actions. The full explanation is that Ted, at the time, was under the influence of a drug that made him act that way; the sanity call was from people trying to use current sanity as evidence that the previous insanity was caused by something else, since it's no longer present. But then it falls apart all over again as Ted continues to do extreme things like beating the player character to death for no reason whenever you fail the interview with him in the third part, escaping police custody multiple times across later parts (even if people behind the scenes are deliberately letting him out - but even that's to pin their own crimes on him, because they know he'll take the option every time and then act the part of an insane murderer all on his own), and holding you at gunpoint because he's "got nothing to lose" ("nothing" including his still-missing children whose disappearance inspired those atrocities), all while in his normal state of mind. Add to that, he doesn't express any real regret for his past actions while under the drug, even going so far as to try to justify them as things anyone would have done at the time.
- The games often fail in their goal to teach you about negotiation, in the fact that nobody really comes to an agreement on anything, and you're mostly just telling people what they want to hear, or offering decisions that really make no sense. Episode 9 even allows you to sit back and let someone else do your work if and when you fail to complete it on your own a few times.
- "The Suspicious Cop" is about trying to talk your way out of a speeding ticket. While a lot of people find themselves in such a situation (albeit without the caveat the game feels the need to add about you driving a friend's car that turns out to have an illegal substance in it), the game seems to suggest that the best way to get off the hook is "start crying uncontrollably." That's appeal to pity, at best. It's certainly not negotiation. The game also suggests that police are apparently allowed to murder you on the spot for any transgressions - in this case, trying to flirt with them, implicitly because you're also playing as a male - which, especially a decade or so after the game came out, is exactly the wrong sort of message you want to send about how to deal with the police.
- "The Track Meet" is a simulation about teaching sports ethics, where the protagonist has fallen below the GPA requirements to stay on the team and the player's goal is to handle it ethically... and the game doesn't give you an option to do so, instead requiring a player to spy on their teammates and engage in a lie of omission just so that they can confess to it later.
- Whenever you argue with an adult, you're scolded for being disrespectful, self-centered, and making excuses, no matter what the subject is or even if discussing it at the time is appropriate (you get scolded for being late to class because the teacher stopped you to scold you about the other stuff), because respect for your superiors means not questioning their judgment or talking back to them, ever. But if you don't correct the coach when he neglects to suspend you from the team because of your slipping grades, you get a game over for trying to dupe him. Even if you manage to get a good ending, the coach rewards you for your integrity by skirting his own rules to allow you to stay on the team while everyone else who had your same problem got cut. So "integrity" means you should never butt heads with anyone with more authority over you unless they owe you a punishment, but that definition only applies to you. Authority figures are welcome to break whatever rules they want in order to play favorites because their integrity cannot be challenged.
- The Negotiator episode "The Raise" has a mouse spontaneously talking to you, and if you listen to the mouse, you get a game over. The game tells you that you shouldn't listen to mice, because mice don't talk. Weird, but somewhat valid... But then this mouse appears once again in "Sir Basil Pike Public School", being the main dispenser of advice. And once you hear the talking mouse, you don't have the option to excuse yourself because you're suddenly hallucinating. It's meant to teach you not to be distracted by outside, irrelevant things, no matter how tempting or urgent, and to pay attention to the other person's reactions, but... as the game says, mice don't talk. If you go to work and have been under a lot of stress, and you start having visual and auditory hallucinations when you talk to your boss, it's probably best to end your negotiation and go see a doctor.
- There's also how you even win the negotiation. The mouse wants you to talk about wanting a raise, so you instead win the negotiation by... never actually talking about why you came into his office. In order to succeed, you have to remain completely off-topic and only discuss about your boss's love life, with that leading him to asking you to write a speech for him to give at an anniversary dinner for a lump sum payment of $1500. The game awards you for realizing that your boss doesn't value you enough to give you an actual raise, which is fair enough given all the losing routes end with you getting fired on the spot, but the winning route barely hints at this being how your boss sees you at all, considering he's asking you to write a speech for his anniversary. In addition, while this does give you enough money in the short-term to pay for your cat's surgery, it ignores the more long-term reason for why you wanted a raise; you can no longer maintain your current standard of living, and a one-time bonus isn't going to help with that. It could be justified if it was implied that that the player character was going to use the success of this new speech to buoy a later negotiation, but that isn't the case either, so the end result is that you scheduled a meeting with your boss to get a raise and failed to get him to even consider giving you one. It is also possible to propose taking a web design class, in which case your boss states that he will consider giving you a raise in six months if you manage to bring in extra business with your new skills. This runs into the opposite problem: you're on the path to getting the extra income you were looking for, but it won't do anything about your cat's vet bills.
- In Sir Basil Pike Public School the author gives us his take on stranger danger.
- The game was made to teach children about bullying... but there's not a lot of bullying in the game, and the player can even be rewarded for making fun of another kid's stutter. Granted, this only earns you Persuasion Power, and the guidance mouse explicitly tells you that cheap victories can just as quickly become defeats, but still.
- The boys' storyline outright encourages bullying. First, there's the stolen bike plot, where you gain persuasive power and become the leader of your peer group by shoving Dave off his bike, taking it for yourself, and making fun of his stutter when he confronts you. Then there's the actual bike recovery plot, where it's revealed that the bike really wasn't yours, but you actually lose Persuasive Power and your leadership if you admit you made a mistake and apologize; if you refuse, there's nothing anyone can do about it, so you keep your position. The mouse says cheap wins can become losses, but they never actually do; the only way to actually lose is to treat a smaller, weaker and handicapped boy with respect.
- If your bike gets stolen, don't ask a teacher for help, because he's more interested in showing off how much more clever he is than his students than actually solving the problem; upon being asked to weigh in on the matter, he only attempts to help for about half a minute before randomly turning the conversation into an awkward lesson on the Judgment of Solomon, going so far as to belittle you for answering his question in the manner a sane human being would do so rather than fitting yourself into the narrative he's suddenly forcing on you by acting callously, spitefully cruel solely for the sake of callous, spiteful cruelty. In this anti-bullying game, you get better results by chasing the thief, shoving him off your bike, taking it back yourself, and then making fun of him when he claims you're the thief; correcting a mistake you made yourself punishes you, and involving a teacher requires you to essentially put all your faith in a very powerful idiot who will pick a side ahead of time instead of remaining an unbiased mediator. It doesn't help that Mr. Hartrup is more or less meant to be the same character as Ted from Ambition - and that, no matter what Zap Dramatic wants you to believe, he is one hundred percent pants-on-head insane.
- The stolen bike puzzle itself breaks its own moral because the lesson is not to make assumptions. The bike isn't being stolen, but another kid, whom you've never seen before, is riding an identical bike and taunting you about how you can't catch him as he speeds away from the place where you left your own bike unattended. It gives you the option to look for your own bike first (knowing the other kid will definitely get away if you don't give chase right now), but if you take it, you get a congratulations message about how you're one of the rare few who would see all these things and not assume your bike is being stolen - and then you're told the story can't continue if you don't go through the mistaken thief subplot, and takes you back to the branch to choose to assume the bike is stolen. And, for good measure, it then also assumes that since you didn't react to the first situation in the game with immediate, mindless violence, you're probably a girl and would be better off playing the girls' story, even giving you the option to switch.
- If you decide to play as a girl for the first day, the game at least tries to go in the right direction if you talk to Mr. Hartrup about your friends picking on you, as he'll say you're doing the right thing by coming to an adult for help when you feel like you're being bullied... only for him to immediately turn around and say that he doesn't have time to help you right now, so fuck off and deal with it yourself. And later days, where the player character's gender doesn't matter, only deal with "bullying" in the sense that everyone suddenly insists on pinning the blame for every bad or stupid decision they make from that point forward on you, with you completely unable to object because of shoddy programming forgetting what, if anything, you even involved yourself with and outright ignoring what you actually said or did.
- There's a little aside where you can stand up for a girl being picked on. If you do, you get a colorful animated musical number where you and the girl rock out to her anti-bullying song... which is kind of an amateur emo-rock hate song about how much better she is than the other kids. It doesn't help that if you don't stand up for her, she does the song anyway, and she just dances by herself in a mundane school hallway, utterly submerged in her own imagination and making everybody else kind of uncomfortable. Even before that, the other kids point out that she gets picked on because she's an outspoken braggart who pushes other kids around; in one of the classroom scenes, she actually punches another student for no apparent reason.
- Move or Die is built on the premise of persuading a pair of siblings to make more ethical decisions than they would on their own and ultimately become better people. It falls apart mostly on the basis that the two actively antagonize everyone they meet - the very first thing you see them do in the game is have an argument over whether they missed a turn in which Syd turns off the car's headlights to try to get Wilma to stop and turn around, to which she responds by instead slamming on the gas out of spite - and absolutely refuse to learn from their mistakes, and the game quickly reaches the point where the real challenge is not in persuading them to make better decisions, but in trying to keep them out of the negotiation and decision-making processes entirely lest they immediately get the whole group killed.
Edit: I'm gonna try to rewrite the first one. How's this?
- Despite being aimed more for people with an interest in learning about anime production, Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken! has garnered a surprisingly large following among the neurodivergent community, especially once the anime adaptation began airing, thanks to two of its lead characters, Midori Asakusa and Tsubame Mizusaki, embodying a large number of characteristics common among autistic people and people with ADHD (particularly the former). The fact that author Sumito Owara revealed in 2019 and 2020 that he's autistic and has ADHD also factors into this to an extent.
Edited by badtothebaritone on Jan 6th 2023 at 3:06:37 AM
AlleyOop
Since: Oct, 2010
#715: Jan 6th 2023 at 1:42:16 PM
For the Eizouken example I like this shortened version a lot better. The old entry had just too many personally judgmental statements that don't belong in YMMV entries.
The Zap Dramatic entries are mostly complaining and thus unsalvageable in their current form. May as well delete it and start over from complete scratch.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 6th 2023 at 4:43:54 AM
#716: Jan 6th 2023 at 2:03:04 PM
So far, my attempt at an edit looks like this, but maybe it can be cleaned up further? Or maybe I cut something that would be better to leave in?
Found this while trying to clean up Albert Wesker's page. Aside from being massive, it's also indented incorrectly. Or maybe it would be better to move it to the Umbrella Corporation page, since the example focuses more on the company?
- A Nazi by Any Other Name: Wesker isn't a Nazi, but he is a good idea of what would happen if a Nazi took their eugenic views to the extreme and tried to create the Aryan race. His origins in Project Wesker, aiming to breed a species of superhumans, has disturbing parallels to Reichsfuhrer-SS Heinrich Himmler's Lebensborn project. Like Lebensborn, Project Wesker was a breeding program aimed at creating a "superior" breed of humans strong in mind, body and soul from abducted children with desirable traits and brainwashed into parroting Spencer's eugenics talking points. Not too dissimilar to the Nazis kidnapping several hundred thousand children from Germany and occupying lands they considered halfway suitable and subjected to Germanisation. It shouldn't go amiss that Wesker is tall, blond-haired and blue-eyed, fitting the Aryan traits so highly sought after by the Nazis. And if that flew over your head, he also wants to use Uroboros to trigger the next stage in human evolution while killing those with what he considers "inferior genes".
- It is, however, downplayed as it's explicitly stated that Spencer and Umbrella in general (and so presumably Wesker) don't actually care about ethnicity, with the Japanese version of the files on the Wesker Project explicitly stating that Spencer selected children from every ethnicity for the Project (and therefore that he considered them to have the potential to become superhumans and to be worthy of being given superpowers and living in his new world), although the English translation slightly obscures this by instead saying "every nationality", and Wesker expressing disdain for judging people on their bloodline/ancestry instead of their own abilities (though wanting to wipe out everyone who lacks the ability to become a superhuman mutant is still a horrific act even if not done along racial lines). Wesker being tall, blond and blue-eyed certainly has a symbolic effect and was likely very much deliberate from a Doylist point of view, but there's no indication that Wesker or the Project considers these to be superior traits or that his idea of a superior being is actually based on the "Aryan race" in-universe.
So far, my attempt at an edit looks like this, but maybe it can be cleaned up further? Or maybe I cut something that would be better to leave in?
- A Nazi by Any Other Name: Wesker is a tall, blond-haired and blue-eyed man whose origins in Project Wesker has disturbing parallels to Reichsfuhrer-SS Heinrich Himmler's Lebensborn project. Like Lebensborn, Project Wesker was a breeding program aimed at creating a "superior" breed of humans strong in mind, body and soul from abducted children with desirable traits and brainwashed into parroting Spencer's eugenics talking points. There is a big difference in that Umbrella doesn't care about ethnicity like the Nazis did and Wesker admonishes people for judging based on bloodline instead of ability. However, he does want to use Uroboros to trigger the next stage in human evolution; killing those with what he considers "inferior genes".
Edited by Hello83433 on Jan 6th 2023 at 5:03:11 AM
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
No longer active.
#717: Jan 6th 2023 at 2:17:21 PM
Speaking as the person who wrote the Eizouken entry way back when, I am overwhelmingly in support of the shortened rewrite. I was watching that show around the same time as when I was finally learning to accept being autistic rather than loathing myself for it, and the way the point was originally written is very reflective of both that state of mind and my old, unfortunate habit of thinking that "longer = better." Somehow I missed it when cleaning up a lot of my old Eizouken-related edits, so thanks for catching it.
Be kind.
#718: Jan 6th 2023 at 2:19:51 PM
The middle portion of the entry could have made for a decent Diagnosed by the Audience entry if there weren't ones for the girls already.
Edited by badtothebaritone on Jan 6th 2023 at 4:20:35 AM
No longer active.
#719: Jan 6th 2023 at 2:22:35 PM
There are Diagnosed by the Audience points for them, yeah; right after Ambiguous Disorder was renamed Diagnosed by the Audience, I took two Ambiguous Disorder points that I previously wrote on the show's character page, pared them down to more cohesive lengths, and filed them on the YMMV page under DBTA.
Edited by bowserbros on Jan 6th 2023 at 2:23:09 AM
Be kind.
#720: Jan 6th 2023 at 9:52:04 PM
Unintentionally Unsympathetic
- Fallout: New Vegas:
- Although it's a stretch to say that Caesar's Legion is supposed to by sympathetic, there are a lot of remarks to the effect that it is meant to be a factor in the game's Grey-and-Grey Morality, with a number of characters remarking a preference for them over other factions, citing their ability to make the wasteland safe as opposed to the humanitarian, but bureaucratic NCR. A lot of discussions involving them treat them as at least an equal choice compared to the other possible options. However, their extreme violence, their slaving, their severe misogyny, their anti-technological policies, their dependency on a military dictator, and the cutting of any Legion-controlled area that wasn't a brutal warcamp left many players confused as to what their upsides were supposed to be. The Wasteland has very few modern conveniences and is full of slaving, raping and killing psychopaths? Obviously, the solution is to institutionalize all those things and put a psychopath in charge! And even if you think the NCR are full of it, there are two other possible factions that sidestep its issues in a much better-adjusted fashion. Tellingly, Legion playthroughs are statistically the least common by a fairly wide margin.
- Ulysses is meant to be a sympathetic villain who, after seeing the only wasteland society he found promising totally destroyed by the player character, decided to both get revenge on them and tear down the institutions of the wasteland. However, his logic is so flawed that many players did not find him sympathetic at all. For one, the player character didn't intentionally destroy the valley; they were simply a courier who delivered an anonymous package, which later turned out to be a bomb. In addition, because this job happened before the beginning of the game, the player themselves had no agency in it. Ulysses’s criticisms of Wasteland societies and institutions are obvious Author Tracts that many players found pretentious and annoying rather than profound. Finally, his “solution” is to basically destroy all civilization in the Wasteland, including potentially millions of people, for the crime of having flawed governments. Essentially, players felt that the main writers expected Ulysses to be sympathetic simply because they agreed with many of his ideals, completely disregarding that players may not hold the same ideology, and that even those who agree with his criticisms might think he was taking things beyond all reason.
- The game tries to make the Great Khans look sympathetic due to the Bitter Springs Massacre and the sorry state they're in during the events of the game, but aside from Bitter Springs, they don't really deserve a player's pity. In the first two Fallout games, the Khans were an Arch-Enemy to NCR since the time it was just the village of Shady Sands, and have raided and preyed on them for decades. When the Khans left California and came to the Mojave, they remained the aggressors when NCR came to the region too and the Khans attacked their settlers without provocation. Papa Khan himself proudly admits that "When the NCR came to the Mojave, we thought they would be easy pickings. We raided their caravans, their towns, their camps - they couldn't stop us." While this information is presented, it's spoken and forgotten as if it were an irrelevant detail. The player is given no dialogue options to reflect on this nor any dialogue options to confront the Khans' brutality or hypocrisy. Meanwhile, the Bitter Springs massacre is treated as a deep and important moral issue that the player comments on several times, and the player is naturally allowed to call the NCR's actions horrible. The best ending for the Khans involves them leaving the Southwest and carving out a "mighty Empire" for themselves in Wyoming. This is treated positively as an oppressed people rebuilding their supposed "glory" by creating a new homeland for themselves, with no mention of the vast suffering almost certain to occur in the Great Khans' idea of a "mighty Empire". Outside of their past, in game the Khans do little to deserve sympathy between their manufacturing and selling drugs to the Fiends, the ways they raise their kids (at least judging from what Bitter Root describes of his childhood), and how they want to join the Legion just for revenge. Nevertheless, the player is implicitly forced to agree with their status as oppressed victims of evil NCR aggression, despite the fact that they're ultimately responsible for their own misfortunes and failures.
These could use a bit of shortening, especially the Great Khans bullet. Also, the first bullet kinda questions its own validity, but it might be valid.
Edited by badtothebaritone on Jan 6th 2023 at 11:52:22 AM
#721: Jan 7th 2023 at 2:56:27 AM
Also, the first bullet kinda questions its own validity, but it might be valid.
Well, it's mentioned a fair bit around the wiki that there were various things cut from the game that were indeed meant to present the Legion as having more of a point than wound up coming across, BUT the Legion is so over-the-top awful that I rather suspect said cut content would have just made the trope apply even more. So I think it's a valid entry.
Edited by nrjxll on Jan 7th 2023 at 4:57:11 AM
Musician/Composer
#722: Jan 7th 2023 at 7:18:17 PM
I wonder if this Laser-Guided Karma example from Film.Spider Man 1 can be trimmed down.
- Layers of it at the beginning of the movie. Peter works a wrestling match against Bonesaw McGraw and expects a payout. The slimy promoter stiffs him on the money before immediately being robbed, which Peter blissfully declines to intervene in. Echoing the response he got from the promoter for calling him out, Peter tells him he "missed the part where that's [his] problem" when the promoter complains. Unfortunately, letting the guy escape causes him to jack a car once he's outside and fatally shoot the driver, who happens to be Peter's Uncle Ben, thus turning the karma back on Peter himself. Though in all honesty, the robbery happened just moments after Peter was stiffed by the promoter and Peter was still angry with him when the robber came his way, so he just wasn’t in the mood to help the guy who made him mad. That and the chances of the same robber being involved in the killing of Uncle Ben after Peter let him escape were completely unlikely, so in a way, karma is a huge bitch to Peter here.
Thoughts?
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
#723: Jan 7th 2023 at 7:24:48 PM
I want to bump this because RandomTroper123 did comment on it, but I want more opinions and a possible rewrite.
E: I originally linked my Tokyo Xanadu comment, but I realize it was actually fairly even length (so to speak), so I’m removing that bump to it.
Edited by Ayumi-chan on Jan 8th 2023 at 7:34:10 PM
She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A
WarJay77
Discarded and Feeling Blue
(Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#724: Jan 8th 2023 at 7:15:31 PM
Everything after "Unfortunately, letting the guy escape causes him to jack a car once he's outside and fatally shoot the driver, who happens to be Peter's Uncle Ben, thus turning the karma back on Peter himself." should be deleted — it's all arguing with the example at that point.
TVRulezAgain
Since: Sep, 2011
#725: Jan 11th 2023 at 3:28:17 PM
So I came across a really messy one on Cain and Abel. Under the entry for the Quranic version of the Trope Namer, there are these ginormous sub-bullets:
- Like the Christian and Jewish versions, the Muslim version of Cain and Abel has many different versions. In many of them, their names are different. They are also unnamed in some versions, have the same names as their Christian and Jewish counterparts in others, and in yet other versions they are given a variety of different names, with the most common ones being Habil and Qabil (or some other close variants). In the most commonly told rendering of the story, the brothers offered sacrifices to God; Abel was righteous and firmly believed in God, so his was accepted, but Cain was arrogant and prideful, so his was rejected. Cain was the wickeder of the two siblings and he subsequently cornered his brother and taunted him over how he would surely slay him. Like the Qur'an version, Abel told his brother that he was the cause of his own rejection and that a God-fearing person would never harm another, much less murder out of envy. Like in the original, Abel refuses to fight back and preaches to his brother about what the reward for murder will be. His brother's innocent pleading had no effect on Cain's evil heart, and he killed him anyway. After the murder, Cain felt guilt and remorse after a crow had to show him how to bury the body. He realized how horrible the murder of a human being really was and also acknowledged that the murder of his brother was even worse because his brother was innocent and righteous. Cain was condemned for his actions and lived out the rest of his life in deep regret for his crime.
- Another one of the main variants is that Cain murdered Abel over a woman. When the brothers were born, they were each part of a set of twins and had a twin sister. Since intermarriage was unavoidable, but direct relations marrying seemed inappropriate, Adam decided that the brothers would each marry the other's twin. Cain was unhappy because his own twin was prettier and refused to allow Abel to marry her. Adam proposed that they offer a sacrifice to god and let him settle the matter. Abel had a better and more righteous nature than Cain, so his sacrifice was accepted. From there, the story follows the two above. In yet another version of the one involving their twin sisters, Cain blamed Adam for praying to god on Abel's behalf for his success and confronted his brother in the field with the intent to murder him. Abel rebuked him and told his brother that he should be more concerned about making his heart right and renewing his relationship with God than marriage. God had blessed Abel with a pure and compassionate heart, so he told Cain that he would let him kill him if it would make Cain feel better, but also begged his brother to not do it, as Abel feared for Cain's soul should he become a murderer. Cain attempted to kill his brother but found himself unable to do it. At a later time, Adam got worried when Abel was late coming home from his work, so he sent Cain to find him. Cain's anger was rekindled and he proceeded to confront Abel again. Abel repeated his initial warnings but, this time, Cain was intent upon killing his brother and attacked him. In one version of that version, Cain clubs his brother to death with an iron rod. In another version, Abel lays down on the ground and offers his neck to his brother and tells him "Do with me what you will." Cain proceeds to attempt to strangle his brother to death but fails. The Devil appears to Cain and asks him if he really wants to kill his brother. When Cain answers yes, the Devil instructs him to crush his brother's skull with a rock
- There are dozens of Muslim and Arabic variations and explanations of the Cain and Abel story. Sometimes, they even overlap with Jewish traditions and legends; some renderings and retellings offered by religious scholars are nearly identical. In both religions, many of the more popular renderings state that Cain's motive was marrying his twin. The two religions also overlap on the idea that Cain was taught to murder by the Devil and that Eve is the reason that women are more likely to cry when they are sad then men. Usually in both, Cain is taught to bury the body by a raven or crow sent by god, but other times Cain runs away and the first funeral and burial is carried out by their parents and sisters when they find the body. There is also a version where Cain runs away with the sister who was the cause of the murder after he kills their brother. In another, Cain states his famous line "Am I my brother's keeper?" when their father can't find Abel and asks him if he has seen him; unfortunately, his remorseless response causes Adam to realize what happened. One Jewish retelling of the idea where the conflict is caused over marriage further explains why the men were matched up with each other's sisters and why God wanted Abel to be the one to marry the more desired sister. Beyond the twincest thing, Cain and Abel's twin sister were paired together because they were both more bitter and mean; Abel and his intended bride were both more physically attractive and good-natured than their twin's, so god paired each brother with the sister who was like him. The reason that Cain was not chosen had nothing to do with his sacrifice itself; he was wicked, unfaithful, and ungrateful towards God, and full of lust for his sister because she was beautiful. Abel was picked because of his righteousness and good heart, like always, only, in this version, it's more logical and practical; he would make a very faithful and loving husband and, seeing that the woman assigned to him was the female version of him, was the one who would be the better and more happy match for the contested sister. It is also brought up that, after their father told them how God intended for the siblings to be paired off for marriage, Abel was accepting and grateful, not because he got the more beautiful sister, but because he was willing to accept whatever God said. Abel and his future wife are implied to have grown to have genuine faithfulness and love between them after finding out they were meant to be married because they were both content with the arrangement; therefore, so it's also possible, according to this version, that Abel was picked due to having a proper and grateful reaction to God's decision. Some scholars believe that Cain was conceived when the either Devil or a fallen angel seduced (or raped) Eve and that he was therefore destined to be evil. Another idea among scholars is that, after being kicked out of the garden of Eden, Adam unintentionally and unknowingly raped Eve during a fight; They were still naked at this point and had yet to discover what sex was; Adam "grabbed her and held her body to his so that every part of them was touching", not knowing how babies were made; resulting in her becoming pregnant with Cain. The couple was unaware of the fact that their fight resulted in the creation of their son, however, because they learned about what sex was shortly thereafter when god explained it to them. The implication in this interpretation is that Cain was evil because he was created out anger and violence, but that Abel was the better-natured of the two as a result of being created out of love. Another short legend tells Cain repeatedly attempts to wash his brother's blood off his hands while on the run, but the blood refuses to come off. Eventually, Cain comes to a mountain spring and sits with his hands in the water until he dies, his hands still stained with the blood of his innocent brother and as red as the day of the murder. This one is more or less a moral fable/tale, though; the moral of the story is that you can't hide your sins.
There's certainly value in discussing different interpretations of the story, but this is out of hand. I checked the page history and it looks like the troper who added all this was suspended for other Wall of Text problems. I don't know how to condense all this.
Total posts: 941
Woof. This one's from GrowingTheBeard.Western Animation, including five notes and a ton of sinkholes.
Edited by FernandoLemon on Dec 23rd 2022 at 12:05:51 PM
I'd like to apologize for all this.