During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Oak
Dark Oak
Yupparooni.
Professor Oak.
And batch:
- Sonic X: Dark Oak, supreme leader of the Metarex, is a chilling combination of power and tragedy. Originally an alien lifeform named Lukas, he fell out with his lover Earthia and parts of his own species trying to save his world from destruction. His ambition and sound intentions eventually corrupted him to become Dark Oak, an Evil Overlord bent on creating a galaxy free of war and conflict by annihilating everything except plants and botanical lifeforms like himself. Introduced trouncing Super Sonic in an attempt to get all seven Chaos Emeralds, Dark Oak strays to background and creates strategies to systematically crush his opposition that, even in failure, will give him an idea of what they are capable of. Dark Oak's cruelest but most ingenious act was forcing a sleeper agent within the ranks of Sonic and crew from the very beginning. Said person had a tracking device that relayed valuable information to the Metarex as they captured the Chaos Emeralds and the Planet Eggs for "Forestation." At the end of a hard-fought battle, Lukas dies realizing the errors of his ways and reconciles with Earthia in the afterlife.
- Witch Craft Works: Weekend is a Tower Witch and explosive trap master who makes deals with other witches to weaken the seals holding the White Princess Evermillion. With a powerful bomb, Weekend distracts Kazane Kagari with protecting Tougetsu City, while she uses bombs she had planted prior to damage the bases of the Workshop Witches. Freeing herself when seemingly defeated, Weekend nearly defeats Ayaka Kagari in combat, only losing due to third party intervention and ends up joining the heroes. After joining them, Weekend proves herself an inquisitive investigator, coming close to finding the answer to a series of mysterious events and only stopped by the antics of her ally. Though a self proclaimed mediocre witch, Weekend uses a combination of intelligence and technology to take down two of the series' most powerful magic users.
- Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog: Mammoth Mogul is a cultured, ancient wizard with a persistent desire to Take Over the World. It is he who founded the Order of Ixis as one of many attempts in gathering an army to serve him in his conquests. A mammoth with powerful rhetoric, Mogul is not above convincing people to his side through words alone while simultaneously planning on how to use them for his own ends. This is best displayed when Mogul led Mighty, Tails, and Mina to suicidal situations to make Sonic submit and become part of his new Fearsome Foursome. Even so, Mogul is all too willing to make the universe bow to his will, shown when he becomes the all-powerful Master Mogul and tried to take over alternate universes. After one too many defeats despite his variety of schemes, Mammoth Mogul contents himself with living the life of a businessman, patiently waiting until Sonic and his allies grow too old to oppose an immortal wizard like himself.
- Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (Mirage): Karai is the leader of the Japanese branch of the Foot Clan. After the Turtles kill the Shredder, the NYC branch of the Foot falls into chaos, breaking up into factions that begin to fight each other. Karai is sent to NYC to restore order to the Foot. Karai learns about the Turtles and offers them a truce with the Foot if they help end the war. The most dangerous faction in the war, a group of zealots loyal to the Shredder, calling themselves the Shredder Elite are intent on killing the Turtles and the rest of the Foot. Karai confronts the Elite, wearing the Shredder's armor and orders the Elite to kill themselves, with one of them complying and leaving the others shocked enough for the Turtles to launch a surprise attack. When one of the Elite is about to kill Karai, she manages to impale him with a broken lamp. With the Elite dead, the war is over. However Karai remains morally ambiguous, secretly dressing up her ninjas as the Turtles in training sessions, musing about killing the Turtles when they are in a helpless state and provoking a war between the Foot and some inter dimensional warriors. When Karai hires Leonardo to protect her from one of these warriors, Karai conceals the truth about their feud from Leonardo and plans to execute the warrior after Leonardo defeats him.
- Absolute Power: Luther Whitney is a career burgler who steals from high-profile targets after months of intelligence-gathering and preparation, including breaking into security firms to ascertain how to circumvent particular systems, being good enough to cover his tracks that the authorities haven't been able to pin a single thing on him for thirty years. During one such burglary of the seemingly unoccupied mansion of philantropist billionaire Walter Sullivan, Luther accidentally becomes witness to an attempted rape and murder committed by the President of the United States, Alan Richmond, against Sullivan's wife Christy. Richmond's Chief of Staff and Secret Service subsequently attempt to cover up for him, but Luther steals the murder weapon, resolving to destroy Richmond after being disgusted by his blatant hypocrisy in public. Luther surreptitiously threatens Richmond by slipping into the White House while wearing a disguise to leave a note and later delivering Christy's necklace she wore that night to them. Luther also manages to avoid being assassinated by two independent snipers when agreeing to meet his estranged daughter Kate out in the open and simultaneously avoid capture by the police investigating Christy's death with a false police uniform hidden underneath his overcoat. Luther eventually manages to expose the conspiracy to protect his daughter after she becomes a target, and revealing the truth to Walter Sullivan so he will personally exact revenge on the President.
- Assault on Wall Street: Jim Baxford is an average joe New Yorker whose life savings are wiped out by crooked investment bankers, his dire financial situation causing him to lose his job as an armored truck driver, his home when he can't afford his mortgage, and even his wife Rosie to suicide when she can't handle the burden her recent battle with brain cancer and her expensive medical needs has inadvertently placed on her husband. After mourning Rosie's death, Jim uses his military experience to start planning revenge on the white collar criminals who wronged him, assassinating high-placed bankers who defrauded their clients but faced no prosecution and planning these kills out meticulously to get away with them and destroying any incriminating evidence afterwards. Jim caps off his rampage with a shooting spree in the NYC financial district, luring his former financial advisor out into the open to kill him with a sniper rifle, followed by dozens of employees working for the bank that deceived him. Jim finally holds their senior portfolio manager hostage, tricking him into snatching a gun under the guise of a "fair play" survival of the fittest, to ensure that SWAT officers will shoot him instead and unknowingly escort Jim safely off the scene.
- Blast (2004): The eco-terrorist named "Michael Kittredge" is in actuality a master thief named Talbert Skyler who killed and replaced the real Kittredge to adopt his identity and goals as a cover to hide his own agenda. As Kittredge, Skyler takes over an oil rig and makes a show of attempting to extort money and a confession out of the corrupt CEO Mr. Heller to distract from his real goal, effortlessly playing both sides with cool-headed, masterful deviousness. Skyler continually undermines efforts to thwart him, disorienting and wiping out a team of Navy SEALs sent to the rig and quickly deducing there's a federal agent among his ranks, ruthlessly rooting out every loose end around him. In the end, Skyler's true goal — to wire billions of dollars all across California to his secret account before using an EMP to knock out power all across the state the instant it's done — is stopped only scant seconds before it can be achieved.
- Heathers: Jason "JD" Dean is a rebellious teenager who swoons the heroine Veronica with his bad boy image by scaring Ram and Kurt by firing blanks at them in the high school cafeteria. JD convinces Veronica to jointly prank Heather Chandler with a mystery drink, not informing Veronica that he switched her concoction with drain cleaner. When Heather dies, they cover it up by forging a suicide note. JD follows this up by having Veronica lure Kurt and Ram into the woods with the offer of a threeway, then fatally shooting them both and make it appear as a Suicide Pact between two secret homosexual lovers, tricking Veronica by telling her that he's using special "Ich Lüge" bullets. JD also facilitates Heather Duke's rise to prominence in order to have every student in the school sign a petition for a mass gathering. JD intends to blow up the whole school with a bomb stolen from his father's demolition company and frame the entire thing as a mass suicide, believing he's doing them all a favor by sending them to heaven with no social differences to fight over. After Veronica dismantles his bomb, JD follows her outside to compliment her spirit and blow himself up in front of her.
- In the Line of Fire: Mitch Leary is a professional assassin and ex-CIA asset who has resolved to assassinate the President of the United States. Leary is a Master of Disguise who can blend into any crowd and technically knowledgeable and proficient enough to sabotage any attempt by the Secret Service to trace his phone calls, and to construct a plastic handgun he can smuggle through a metal detector and assemble out of different parts hidden on his person. Leary gains an obsession with Secret Service Agent Frank Horrigan because of his ties to the Kennedy assassination, whose death Horrigan failed to prevent when he was a part of his service detail in Dallas. Leary frequently calls Horrigan to reminisce about his personal philosophies and the "game" between them, gives Frank clues on how to stop him, and even saves his life on one occasion. After killing numerous people who got in his way, Leary ultimately comes perilously close to killing the President before Horrigan's timely intervention, congratulating Frank on his victory afterwards.
- Warhammer franchise:
- Warhammer:
- Khazrak One-Eye is the most brilliant champion of the Beastmen who ever lived. Taking over by defeating his mentor, but sparing him and keeping one of his horns for respect, Khazrak organized a series of raids on the Drakwald villages, luring out human forces and eventually losing an eye to Count Boris Todbringer. Khazrak proceeded to return the favor by defeating Boris and taking his eye in turn, but let him live because he loved matching wits with the man. Khazrak was responsible for the brilliant Battle of Grimminhagen where he lured in a huge force of the Empire and completely wiped them out, before resuming his brilliant raids and tactics. Uncommonly intelligent and even possessing a sense of honor not often seen to his race, Khazrak meets his death in the End Times at the hands of Boris, but not before he lures out Boris's forces to leave his city undefended and ripe to plunder by the armies of Archaon.
- Count Vlad von Carstein is a powerful vampire and the progenitor of the von Carstein bloodline. After freeing himself from the control of Nagash, Vlad resurfaces centuries later to seize control of Sylvania and uses brilliant tactics and intimidation to keep his hold, constantly coming out on top via his brilliant military tactics and political machinations. Despite his evil, Vlad deeply loves his wife Isabella,, and is one of the few villains to drive the Empire to its knees. Even in the End Times, Vlad never loses his style or redeeming qualities and ultimately dies with Isabella in a Mercy Kill when she is corrupted by Nurgle.
- Warhammer 40,000: Even in this Grimdark future, some characters are truly impressive:
- Eldrad is perhaps the most powerful Psyker the Eldar have ever produced. Having once attempted to warn the Empire about Horus's treachery, he has spent his time ever since weaving complex plans to benefit the Eldar, and has perhaps even made the entire Imperium of Man his pawns. Eldrad was responsible for several Eldar raids that produced the eventual rise of Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and the Armageddon Wars, solely so Eldrad could ensure 10,000 Eldar escaped death at the cost of millions of humans. Eldrad frequently conducts daring plots and schemes to benefit his race, even to ensure the eventual triumph of a new god of the Eldar to defeat Chaos and save his race's souls from Slaanesh.
- Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka, the Beast of the Apocalypse, is the most successful Ork warboss in history. The self-proclaimed Prophet of the WAAAAGH!, Ghazghkull puts together daring crusade after daring crusade, bringing new advancements to the orks and being a tactical genius even by the standards of other races. Ghazghkull has become a blight on the Imperium, leaving whole worlds burning behind him and constantly outwitting all enemies save for only Comissar Sebastian Yarrick, the one human Ghazghkull truly respects. Ghazghkull frequently inspires other Orks with his sheer charisma and force of will, planning on bringing out a war so great that his deities Gork and Mork come to join the fun personally.
- Azhek Ahriman is the mortal champion of Tzeentch. A former member of the Thousand Sons Legion, Ahriman is driven to save his legion and correct all his past mistakes by overthrowing Tzeentch himself and becoming a new God. To his end, Ahriman is a brilliant schemer, crafting and "seeding" new cults on a myriad of worlds to find and approach new knowledge while manipulating entire new conflicts so he can swoop in, take all their work and bring himself closer to the Black Library and Tzeentch's true name. Time and again, Ahriman demonstrates why he is worthy of being the champion of the Changer of Ways.
- Trazyn the Infinite is an ingenious Necron, who is equal to any of the great Phaerons in wit and skill. A collector of rare, historical things and people, Trazyn frequently outwits others to steal things for his collection. Trazyn performs daring heists and uses his fellow Necron lords as body doubles for himself without informing them, manipulating events so he can benefit. When Abaddon launched his 13th Black Crusade on Cadia, Trazyn even joined in on the side of the Imperium, wanting to play the hero for fun, and also to steal Abaddon himself for his collection, though he decided to make due with the Lord Castellan of Cadia instead. Trazyn is even banned from the Necron throne worlds due to his habit of stealing their priceless artifacts, a ban he is well aware of and flaunts for fun whenever the mood takes him.
- Asdrubael Vect is the evil Lord of Commoragh, the master of the Dark Eldar. Scheming his way from ignominious slavery to rule the Dark Eldar, Vect has shown a vicious tendency to outwit and destroy his rivals. At one point, Vect seduced the daughter of a rival Archon and had her deliver her father a box with a portable black hole inside. In another instance, Vect seized a Salamanders cruiser to lure in the Space Marines against his rivals, letting them be wiped out in the fighting to solidify his own authority. In his most daring move, Vect even faked his death when a rebellion occurred and then proceeded to drop a miniature sun to wipe out the rebels and anyone in their area, making himself the undisputed master of the Dark Eldar once more.
- Lady Aurelian Malys is a ruthless Dark Eldar and the Archon of the Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue. Once banished by her former lover Asdrubael Vect, Malys has returned to Comorragh where she proves herself Vect's equal in scheming, amassing an exceptional power base and working to undermine her former paramour to seize his position. Malys once initiated a war between humans and orks to steal an STC known as the Panacea, solely to keep it in her room and deny humanity the chance to cure any disease. Since returning to Comorragh, Malys has shown an uncanny ability to detect Vect's schemes and was one of the few Archons to survive his plotting, with it being whispered that if Vect ever falls, Malys is sure to be the one holding the knife.
- Duke Traevelliath Sliscus is a wicked Dark Eldar corsair known as "The Serpent". Bored with the decadent courts of Comorragh, Sliscus stole the ships of several Archons, fooled them into coming out to fight him and summarily destroyed their forces. A feared pirate lord, Sliscus's daring exploits have made him a legend to many of the Dark Eldar, and he frequently performs incredible, daring raids, notably being the only opponent to get the better of the infamous Lukas the Trickster by catching him, cutting out his heart and throwing him from his airlock. Well known for how he presents himself, Malys once described Sliscus as "amoral, despicable and impeccably dressed in the bargain".
- The mysterious Cypher is a former member of the Dark Angels who supposedly fell to Chaos. Since then, Cypher roams the galaxy, pursued by his former Chapter, where he resurfaces, lures the forces of Chaos and the Space Marines into conflicts and lets them fight it out. His methods are utterly brilliant, even if his plans are inscrutable. Cypher is just as likely to hinder Chaos as the Imperium, assassinating Inquisitors, tyrants, Chaos lords and others in bold, daring manuevers before alerting the Dark Angels to his presence. Cypher will event inspire revolutions against tyrants and whenever captured, he performs bold escapes. Whatever Cypher's true plan is, it is clear he is working to an end that he's had in mind for a long time and repeatedly shows himself as nearly untouchable.
- Lukas The Trickster, or Lukas Strifeson, is a infamous member of the Space Wolves chapter of the Space Marines. Well known for his wicked pranks, such as poisoning a superior with bloat toad venom, Lukas is known for his shocking effectiveness when deployed against the enemies of the imperium. Lukas has caused a civil war among orks with faked transmissions, lured a WAAAGH! to a planet that he then froze solid, tricked a group of Word Bearer traitor marines into landing on thin ice to drown the and has outwitted the Dark Eldar, even the infamous Aurelia Malys herself. Even after Duke Sliscus carved out one of his hearts, Lukas simply replaced it with a stasis bomb to insure whoever kills him will hear his laughter forever. Notably, Lukas has even managed to outwit Magnus the Red, Daemon Prince of Tzeentch himself, always ready with a laugh and a jest against the enemies of his Chapter.
- Cegorach the Laughing God is one of the few Eldar deities to survive the birth of Slaanesh. In the past, Cegorach even convince one C'tan god to devour others to weaken the pantheon in one of his finest schemes. Worshiped by the Eldar Harlequins, Cegorach is a mad genius with a habit of forming audacious schemes, especially in the pursuit of fighting Chaos. Defending his followers from Slaanesh's hunger, Cegorach organizes schemes to lure the forces of Chaos into doing his work for him. One of the best schemers in all the universe, Cegorach even manages to take a hold in the Dark Eldar to potentially manipulate them, willing to stop at little to ensure the fall of Slaanesh in the end.
- Warhammer:
- Knack: Katrina is Viktor's right hand woman, both seeking to open a locked door containing countless Massive Relics that they want to use to revolutionise the world. Katrina is the brains of the operation, coming up with just about all the strategies. Believing Knack to be the key, she suggests Vitor kidnaps him. When that doesn’t work, Katrina suggests they simply let Knack and crew investigate the door themselves, correctly predicting they’d also be fascinated by it. Later managing to bug a memento of kid sidekick Lucas, Katrina is able to ascertain where the real key is, managing to snatch it from right under the heroes’ noses. Through acrobatics and strategy Katrina was able to go toe to toe with the much stronger Knack and when Knack outsmarted her, she went into training and accepted Viktor's gift of a mech and poisoned relics to even the odds. Even after being defeated and reforming Katrina creates her own successful company focused on private security. Almost always one step ahead, Katrina was Knack’s most likable and devious antagonist.
- Sonic the Hedgehog:
- Sonic Adventure 2: Shadow the Hedgehog was an Ultimate Lifeform that lost his best friend Maria and his creator Dr. Gerald Robotnik when they were killed by the government. Imprisoned but eventually released by Gerald’s grandson, Dr. Eggman Robotnik, Shadow enacted a plan to destroy all of humanity as revenge. Playing on Eggman’s ego and his grandfather’s legacy, Shadow manipulated the doctor into gathering Chaos Emeralds, misdirecting everyone into thinking it was for powering a Kill Sat. This diverted everyone’s attention from his real plan of performing a Colony Drop. He even manages to expose Rouge as a government agent. Shadow’s plan is only foiled because Amy Rose helps him remember Maria’s final request for Shadow to protect the people of Earth and so he decides to help stop his own scheme, almost sacrificing himself. Shadow, in his first appearance, was as devious as Sonic villains come and even as a hero is one of the franchise’s most competent characters.
- Sonic Storybook Series: From Sonic and the Black Knight, Merlina the Wizard flawlessly masterminded the entire plot of game completely beneath notice. Summoning Sonic from his world to slay a corrupted King Arthur, she takes the arcane Scabbard of Excalibur to utilize its power of immortality, casting a powerful spell on the Kingdom of Camelot. Having foreseen the ruinous future of her world, a despairing Merlina places Camelot under a kind of magical stasis, fueled by the dark forces from the Underworld, in hopes of keeping it eternal. Showing absolute conviction to her cause, Merlina even fights back against Sonic and Caliburn as the Dark Queen. Although ultimately defeated, Sonic spares and convinces Merlina to abandon her nihilistic outlook, proving her to be a lost, if understandable soul who needed her hope resorted after resorting to extreme measures to keep her world intact.
- Sonic Lost World: This version of Dr. Eggman starts off with complete control of the Deadly Six through the use of the Cacophonic Conch and only loses them due to Sonic's recklessness. Now stripped of his machines and resources, Eggman decides to ally with Sonic and Tails and take advantage of his past habit of uniting against a stronger force. He even goes so far to save a suspicious Tails's life to make his alliance seem completely altruistic. In the climax, Eggman seemingly sacrifices his life so Sonic can defeat the Deadly Six, but Eggman faked it by using a jetpack to break his fall. Spending the time beneath notice building a mech powered by the energy the Extractor had absorbed, Eggman claws his way back to Final Boss status in a stunning display of manipulation and patience.
- Sonic Forces: In this work Dr. Eggman researches the Phantom Ruby in his attempt at world domination. Recruiting Infinite through promises, he implants him with a Phantom Ruby prototype and christens him as the Eggman Empire's high commander. With everything in place, Eggman lures Sonic into a savage beatdown, and with him out of the way, conquers the world in a matter of months. Eggman proceeds to display foresight and cunning in trying to keep his iron-fisted hold on the planet—ordering his forces to destroy any remaining prototypes. keeping multiple power sources unbeknownst to his enemies, and targeting critical points in the Resistance. He also factored in multiple ways to eliminate the Resistance outright, culminating in a virtual Colony Drop when they were gathered in one place. Even in the final fight, Eggman pulled out all the stops, having kept the real Phantom Ruby with the whole time and had to be stopped by the combined might of Sonic, Classic Sonic, and the Avatar.
- South Park: Leslie Meyers is a sentient ad and the Big Bad of Season 19, masterminding the plot to take over the titular town for her kind. Masquerading as a 4th grader in South Park Elementary, she introduces the school to PC Principal having him force the residents to become politically correct, causing the town to be gentrified. This results in the price of living in South Park to increase, causing people who can't afford it to move out while her kind slowly takes over having done so with many other towns beforehand. After being captured by the newsmen and exposed as an ad by Jimmy Valmer, she manipulates Jimmy into helping her escape her captors, before beating him unconscious and ordering Nathan to kill him. She then frames PC Principal for all her crimes and persuades Kyle Broflovski to convince everyone attending the gun show to leave South Park in search for PC Principal, while she discreetly takes full control of the vacant town.
- Test (by Midnight Radio Comics): The Auditor is an alien who visits civilizations before they gain space travel technology to test them if they are worthy to live amongst the intergalactic community. Arriving on Earth disguised as an old man, the Auditor is mistreated and imprisoned by humans. Developing a misanthropic view of them, the Auditor kills the several police officers stationed to guard him before performing a test on an officer thrown into his cell by his own corrupt coworkers. Talking with the betrayed cop, the Auditor tests him by threatening to destroy humanity unless the officer kills himself. Offering to make the cop another Auditor, the officer nearly kills himself to save the world before the Auditor reveals he has passed his 'test', congratulating him for his courage and departing.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
All good, I added them but I broke up the bullets until there's enough for a page.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 21st 2018 at 11:16:55 AM
The Unknown Unknown
Hope these aren't too late:
- Sonic the Hedgehog:
- While Doctor Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik fails to count in general due to Depending on the Writer, there have been times the classic Evil Genius fulfills the requirements:
- In Sonic Lost World, Eggman starts off with complete control of the Deadly Six through the use of the Cacophonic Conch and only loses them due to Sonic's recklessness. Now stripped of his machines and resources, Eggman decides to ally with Sonic and Tails and take advantage of his past habit of uniting against a stronger force. He even goes so far to save a suspicious Tails's life to make his alliance seem completely altruistic. In the climax, Eggman seemingly sacrifices his life so Sonic can defeat the Deadly Six, but Eggman faked it by using a jetpack to break his fall. Spending the time beneath notice building a mech powered by the energy the Extractor had absorbed, Eggman claws his way back to Final Boss status in a stunning display of manipulation and patience.
- In Sonic Forces, Eggman researches the Phantom Ruby in his attempt at world domination. Recruiting Infinite through promises, he implants him with a Phantom Ruby prototype and christens him as the Eggman Empire's high commander. With everything in place, Eggman lures Sonic into a savage beatdown, and with him out of the way, conquers the world in a matter of months. Eggman proceeds to display foresight and cunning in trying to keep his iron-fisted hold on the planet—ordering his forces to destroy any remaining prototypes. keeping multiple power sources unbeknownst to his enemies, and targeting critical points in the Resistance. He also factored in multiple ways to eliminate the Resistance outright, culminating in a virtual Colony Drop when they were gathered in one place. Even in the final fight, Eggman pulled out all the stops, having kept the real Phantom Ruby with the whole time and had to be stopped by the combined might of Sonic, Classic Sonic, and the Avatar.
- Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog: Mammoth Mogul is a cultured, ancient wizard with a persistent desire to Take Over the World. It is he who founded the Order of Ixis as one of many attempts in gathering an army to serve him in his conquests. A mammoth with powerful rhetoric, Mogul is not above convincing people to his side through words alone while simultaneously planning on how to use them for his own ends. This is best displayed when Mogul led Mighty, Tails, and Mina to suicidal situations to make Sonic submit and become part of his new Fearsome Foursome. Even so, Mogul is all too willing to make the universe bow to his will, shown when he becomes the all-powerful Master Mogul and tried to take over alternate universes. After one too many defeats despite his variety of schemes, Mammoth Mogul contents himself with living the life of a businessman, patiently waiting until Sonic and his allies grow too old to oppose an immortal wizard like himself.
- Sonic X: Dark Oak, supreme leader of the Metarex, is a chilling combination of power and tragedy. Originally an alien lifeform named Lukas, he fell out with his lover Earthia and parts of his own species trying to save his world from destruction. His ambition and sound intentions eventually corrupted him to become Dark Oak, an Evil Overlord bent on creating a galaxy free of war and conflict by annihilating everything except plants and botanical lifeforms like himself. Introduced trouncing Super Sonic in an attempt to get all seven Chaos Emeralds, Dark Oak strays to background and creates strategies to systematically crush his opposition that, even in failure, will give him an idea of what they are capable of. Dark Oak's cruelest but most ingenious act was forcing a sleeper agent within the ranks of Sonic and crew from the very beginning. Said person had a tracking device that relayed valuable information to the Metarex as they captured the Chaos Emeralds and the Planet Eggs for "Forestation." At the end of a hard-fought battle, Lukas dies realizing the errors of his ways and reconciles with Earthia in the afterlife.
- While Doctor Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik fails to count in general due to Depending on the Writer, there have been times the classic Evil Genius fulfills the requirements:
Edited by erazor0707 on Oct 21st 2018 at 11:43:10 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
So, I just beat the first piece of DLC for Insomniac's Spoderman.
Now there's something I'm looking forward to discussing.
Yes to Dark Oak.
Now, this candidate suddenly popped into my mind while I was thinking of Ace Attorney Investigations. I looked it up and saw that it didn’t seem like she was discussed before, so here’s an effort-post for one of the Co-Dragons to Quercus Alba, Calisto Yew/Shih-na (both names are covers, but we never find out her real name)
Who is she? What has she done?
Shih-na was an Interpol agent and seemingly the right hand woman to Edgeworth’s rival, Shi-Long Lang, but was in truth, a spy for the Cohdophian smyggling ring that Interpol is investigating. She would feed crucial information about the investigation to the smuggling ring, and as a result, the smuggling ring could prepare for Interpol’s next move. By the end of the third episode, with the information Shih-na leaked, the smuggling ring is able to have Jacques Portsman, a prosecutor who was working for the smuggling ring, acting as the prosecutor for the future trial of Ernest Amano. (Though when Portsman murders somebody later, and gets arrested when Edgeworth reveals it, he’s taken off the trial due to his arrest)
In the fourth episode, taking place six to seven years before the game, we meet her as Calisto Yew, a defense attorney who’s under the guise of being Cece Yew’s sister (Cece Yew as murdered as she was about to testify against the smuggling ring) along with one of the members of the group, the Yatagarasu, an enemy of the smuggling ring. Naturally, due to Calisto Yew being part of the smuggling ring, she worked to sabotage the group from the inside. She tells the criminal, Mack Rell, to murder a future witness who’ll testify against the smuggling ring known as Deid Mann (Ace Attorney loves it’s puns) and then tell him that when revealed to be the culprit, claim that the prosecutor of Mack Rell’s case, Byrne Faraday, told him to murder Deid Mann.
Later, Calisto Yew goes into the waiting room that Mack and Byrne are in when Byrde interrogates Mack, killed Byrne with a knife that Byrne had, has Mack help her manipulate the crime scene, using a recording of a gunshot and the mostly soundproof walls within the courthouse to make it seem like the crime occurred later than it truly did. She then kills Mack Rell to ensure that the crime can’t be traced back to her. She makes the crime scene seem like Rell and Faraday killed each other, but when Edgeworth deduces that this is impossible, she manages to throw Detective Gumshoe under the bus due to a misunderstanding from The Judge. The Judge saw a point in time where Gumshoe wasn’t at the door (he was sitting down with a young Kay, eating a swiss roll) and Yew uses this as an opportunity to accuse Gumshoe of the murderer, using a moment where Byrne yelled at the incompetent detective and threatened to cut his salary as a fake motive.
When Edgeworth and Franziska find out how the Judge was mistaken (mishearing a balloon pop for a gunshot, and that Gumshoe was simply sitting down but still in the hallway) Calisto still manages to pin suspicion onto Gumshoe by pointing out how he’s the only one in the courthouse who had the opportunity to commit the murder at the time it was thought to have occured. Edgeworth then debates with Calisto Yew, eventually indicting her as the true murderer. One of the pieces of evidence that he uses is the knife used to kill Byrne (which doubles as a key that the smuggling ring needed to open up a certain safe).
When Edgeworth points out how the knife doubles as a key, Yew asks him to give it to her so that she can discern it, which Edgeworth does. This unfortunately proved to be a huge mistake on Edgeworth’s end. After Edgeworth proves her to be the murderer, Yew admits defeat...before revealing that what she was after all along was an opportunity to get the Yatagarasu’s key. She then gets out a gun, shoots at Edgeworth (who would have died due to being paralyzed from shock and fear, but Kay yelling at him to dodge saved his life) and Yew runs off, escaping the detective, Tyrell Badd, in the process.
We cut back to the present with case 5, where as Shih-na, she helps Quercus Alba move the body of Manny Coachen (who was acting as The Starscream to Quercus Alba) between embassies, which as a result, led to Alba having a fake alibi as he never entered the embassy of Babahl. Shih-na did this by lighting a fire in the Babahl embassy, leading to the firefighters to drain the pool for water, and she and Alba used an interconnected passageway within the pool to move the body. Shih-na then takes advantage of Kay chasing after her disguised self by giving Kay the slip, leading Kay to the office where Coachen’s dead body was, and using it as an opportunity to pin Kay as the murderer (though thankfully, Edgeworth proves Kay’s innocence)
Later on, during another confrontation between Edgeworth and Shih-na, when Edgeworth accuses her of being the murderer, along with finding out about proof that she’s Calisto Yew (a perfume bottle that belonged to Yew that Kay kept and preserved for years had her fingerprints on it) Shih-na eventually reveals herself to be Calisto Yew, and a spy for Interpol. Eventually, Badd comes to the scene, shoots at Shih-na when she holds Kay at gunpoint, but Shi-Long Lang saves Shih-na as she’s his subordinate, literally taking a bullet for her. Shih-na is shocked by this and calls Lang an idiot, but proves that she was moved by Lang saving her life by later accepting defeat gracefully and giving Edgeworth and the team a hint to steer them on the right track by honestly stating that she wasn’t the one to kill Coachen. This eventually leads to the heroes to find out that the ture murderer was Quercus Alba.
How do her actions show that she’s a Magnificent Bastard?
Both as Shih-Na when under the guise of a stoic and reliable partner to Lang, and as Calisto Yew where she acts as a snarky, fun-loving attorney but acts as if she uses it to cope with the pain of the death of her “sister” (leading even the cold Edgeworth and Franziska to feel a bit guilty when they acted rude to her) the unknown smuggling ring spy has tricked and manipulated pretty much every protagonist in the game, and is one of the only villains in Ace Attorney to get away with their crimes in the same case that their revealed as the culprit (albeit temporarily). Even when things don’t go her as planned, her ability to improves is easily her strongest asset, pinning Gumshoe as the murderer mere minutes after Edgeworth found out that it’s impossible for Byrne and Rell to have killed each other, and getting away with the item the smuggling ring was after all along.
Too much of a bastard?
Now, she’s certainly a bitch as she mocks Lang for being tricked by her, tries to murder Edgeworth in episode 4, and uses Kay’s life as a bargaining chip when revealed as the culprit in episode 5, but with her only killing when necessary for her or the smuggling ring, being a Graceful Loser and attempting to steer the heroes on the right track out of gratitude for Lang saving her life (or simply out of respect for being bested) I’d say no.
Final Thoughts?
Goku Black
Yew
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Ew
Yes to Yew... I mean Shih-na... I mean whatever her name is.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:29:11 AM
Yes to Yew.
Ooh I forgot to EP Yew.
Easy to her. She is one of the few Faux Affably Evil villains that isn't too vile.
I think that about wraps up Ace Attorney for candidates though. Given that the majority of AA villains are scummy or not bastardly enough in the case of Acro and Marlon Rimes, or in the case of Godot, don't have it all together, unless there are candidates in Dai Gyakuten Saiban and looking at it the closest that comes to mind is Rubert Crogley and Hart Vortex (a Damon Gant Expy) but aside from those two, none are coming to mind.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 23rd 2018 at 4:19:10 AM
MBs can be scummy. We have several examples that are both Magnificent Bastards and Complete Monsters. So long as the villainous actions of the candidate doesn't take away from their charm, they don't need to have redeeming qualities to count.
That said, I do agree that Yew/Shih-na is probably the last Ace Attorney MB (out of the villains I'm aware of at least). I might propose Dee Vasquez and Tahrust Inmee (he's a genuinely tragic Anti-Villain, but he was still willing to frame Maya for murder knowing that it'd get both her and Phoenix executed) in the future, but as you can tell, I'm skeptical if they would count.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Oct 23rd 2018 at 7:53:21 AM
Hey, if I found Simon Keyes from I2 to be a MB, I'm sure the series has at least one last example. My money is on Hart Vortex the chief Justice of 18th century England and quite possibly Damon Gant's ancestor if his hair and breakdown are anything to go by.
I remember proposing Luke Atmey and Roger Retinz both of whom were edit war after I cut them for being too dickish and not magnificent enough and sure enough, they were shot down.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 23rd 2018 at 9:26:02 AM
On 43's request, by the by, since it's been weeks that New proposed this with no answer in DM:
- Star vs. the Forces of Evil: Toffee of Septarsis is an enigmatic, devious monster with a flair for casual manipulation and a missing finger taken from him by Queen Moon in his days as a monster warlord. Coming into the service of inept Big Bad Wannabe Ludo, Toffee ingratiates himself into Ludo's service and manipulates him into firing Buff Frog, the one minion who suspects Toffee of any wrongdoing, before ousting Ludo from his own castle and using his new position to extort and destroy Star's wand. Seemingly dying after this, Toffee in truth lived on within one half of the wand's crystal, eventually taking over Ludo's body to enact his final plot to take his finger back and restore his power, wiping out almost every single person who can stand against him and even regaining his body back before Star manages to destroy him. Suave, perpetually calm, and a master of every situation he's in, Toffee remains one of the most cunning and effective foes to have ever fought against the Butterfly family.
Thanks pal, looks good!
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Writeup on Toffee looks good. And a yes to SINE!/Callisto Eew... ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Goku Black
Alright guys head up. Ive got exams this week. So have to study. Hence ill be taking a break for now. See you in a week or maybe a bit more.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
GL dude!
V
Late on Toffee.
So other than Toffee I've gotten confirmation on most of the long standing writeups that the entries are still in the minds of the respective posters with the exception of Oriko, who PhiSat got approved some time ago. Anyone familiar enough to get something ready for that or Phi, if you still monitor, still interested in doing that one?
Edited by 43110 on Oct 24th 2018 at 9:56:56 AM
