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PlasmaPower Since: Jan, 2015
#251: Jan 10th 2022 at 6:27:06 PM

So, 5 years after the dork age started or 5 years after the dork age ended?

I’m also wondering what we should do with this whiny Bomberman folder that’s in DorkAge.Video Games. It feels like an essay on the downfall of the series split into examples.

    Bomberman 
While people tend to blame Act:Zero for killing the series, fans would say that the 2000s as a whole was not a good time for Bomberman. In fact, it actually led to the death of the franchise until 2017. This was mainly due to ridiculous amounts of Nostalgia Filter-induced Capcom Sequel Stagnation, poorly thought-out gimmicks, and some truly boneheaded cases of Executive Meddling. It didn't help that Hudson was going through their own Dork Age during that time.

Note that some of these entries have been Vindicated by History. This does not, however, change the fact that the games were heavily contested at the time of their release.

  • It all started in 2000 with the Bomberman Land series, as well as the introduction of the hated developer Racjin. Bomberman Land was a Mini Game Game with very little Bomberman mechanics that was seen as So Okay, It's Average in its native Japan, but was considered generic and terrible in the West (though the authentic recreations of theme parks and the Survival Bomberman mode were well received on both sides of the pacific). It probably didn't help that the game wasn't released outside Japan... and did well enough to get sequels that got even worse reception.
  • The Charaboms. While they were introduced in Bomberman 64: The Second Attack! and Bomberman Maxnote , nobody really minded until Hudson Soft started to force them into the single-player campaigns in an attempt to copy the success of Pokémon. This didn't go over very well with fans, because A) they'd already tried making a Pokemon clone with Robopon, B) the battle system wasn't anywhere near as good as Pokémon's, and C) the Level Grinding clashed heavily with the Bomberman gameplay style. The fan backlash resulted in the Charaboms being Put on a Bus after 2002, though they've since been Vindicated by History.
  • Then came Bomberman Tournament, an early Game Boy Advance game and the sequel to Bomberman Quest. While its Battle Game was praised, the story mode was heavily panned for essentially being a watered down version of Quest with none of its personality or good writing. The removal of Quest's Boss Game gameplay and the addition of the controversial Charabom mechanic (which now requires you to do extensive Level Grinding to even stand a chance against the CPU) didn't help matters. Tournament would eventually be Vindicated by History, however.
  • Bomberman Online was a late release for the Sega Dreamcast, coming out exclusively in the U.S. in October 2001. It gutted the traditional single-player gameplay for a Battle Game-centric campaign (much like Wario Blast/Bomberman GB before it) which was criticized for its Fake Difficulty (especially the bosses). While the online mode was well-received, it didn't last too long due to its very late release date.
  • Bomberman Kart was a Land spin-off and the first Bomberman game on the PlayStation 2. Unfortunately, it was also a generic kart racer, which didn't sit well with fans or critics, nor did it help the perception of Land in the West. To top things off, it was only released in Japan and Europe.
  • In 2002, Bomberman Generation and Max 2 hit store shelves...only to be hit with the Tough Act to Follow trope hard. The games were meant to be sequels to Bomberman 64 and Max respectively, but didn't really get fans' attention. The inclusion of the Charaboms really didn't help, either—in the former game, on top of having Tournament's Level Grinding, Generation locks several abilities behind the Charaboms, including several mechanics introduced in 64 such as the ability to control the strength of your Bomb Throw and the fan-favorite Bomb Jump—as it was another sign of Generation moving away from 64's Puzzle Platformer roots. And in the latter game, some of the 'Boms are absolute Game Breakers. While Generation has been heavily Vindicated by History, Max 2 is still a Contested Sequel.
  • At the end of that year, the critically contested Bomberman Jetters anime and marketing campaign, which lasted about a year, was launched. Fans were split down the middle—some liked Jetters and wanted to see it continue, while others hated it and thought the series had officially jumped the shark. If there was one thing that fans unanimously agreed on, however, it's that no one expected the inevitable Recursive Adaptation tie-in video game to be such a catastrophic example of The Problem with Licensed Games. It had it all: looong loading times, Charabomsnote , dreadfully long and padded levels, and the obligatory Fake Difficulty. Worse yet, despite being a sequel to Generation, it was released in Japan six months after Gen so it could tie into the anime. Japanese fans weren't happy, and when the game finally made it stateside in 2004, American critics butchered it and fans were through the roof in anger. It singlehandedly killed the "64-esque" gameplay style, marked the end of the road for the Charaboms (so much so that future games don't even acknowledge them) and tainted the reputation of Jetters in the west for years.
    • There was also a GBA prequel/tie-in to the anime. Unlike the console game, it was very well received...which naturally meant that it never left Japan.
  • Bomberman Hardballnote  was yet another Land spin-off, this time a generic compilation of sports games, once again only released in Japan and Europe. At this point, some people wondered if Racjin (the developers of Land) were actively trying to sabotage the franchise.
  • Bomberman on the Nintendo DS was released in 2005 and was the start of the series Dork Age heading into overdrive, as this was where the true Capcom Sequel Stagnation began. Racjin finally got to make a main series title! And it was essentially a clone of the Super Bomberman games, but with Land's art style... with all of the innovation of those titles surgically removed (save for the surprisingly fun double screen battle mode). This worsened Racjin's reputation among western fans, to the point that some feared that the franchise wouldn't last much longer.
  • Then there's the big one: Bomberman Act:Zero. Seeing how poorly Bomberman had done in the sixth generation, Hudson attempted to restore goodwill with fans and critics by rebooting the series. Unfortunately, some executive at Konami (the game's publisher. Keep them in mind) who likely didn't know much about the series forced the developers to make it much Darker and Edgier in a baffling attempt to appeal to Americansnote . When it was released, fans and critics were downright horrified at how bad the game was. Act:Zero used the same Battle Game-centric gameplay style as Online, only this time Bomberman had to survive 99 rounds with no lives or saves! Died on Round 96? Back to Round 1 for you! It also featured such gems as a "First-Person Bomber" mode that was actually third-person, a needlessly dark story about how Bombers were actually Super Soldiers made for some war with a lame A Winner Is You ending to boot, a horrible redesign that became a textbook example of bad redesigns, no local play option for the battle mode, and Jiggle Physics for the female Bombers in the normally chaste Bomberman series. Needless to say, Act:Zero quickly became a laughingstock in the industry. It was so bad that Hudson had to go into full damage control mode by apologizing for the game and abandoning the reboot... but not before insulting fans by making a Totally Radical website that invoked the Animation Age Ghetto on the older Bomberman games—even going as far as telling fans who didn't like the game to play with the PSP game (seemingly mocking the iconic Bomberman character design in the process) or Hello Kitty toys. Fans took the hint and retaliated by leaving the series en masse, resulting in Act:Zero as well as every Bomberman game released afterward bombing in sales. Hudson later teamed up with Backbone Entertainment to create Bomberman Live/Ultra, which was intended to be a saving throw, but it was too late for the series.
  • Around the time of Act:Zero's release, two games were made for the Play Station Portable. The first of these was Bakufuu Sentai Bomberman, a crossover with Super Sentai. Western fans were baffled by the concept and fans on both sides of the Pacific noted the lack of creativity in the gameplay. It also never left Japan.
  • The second of the two titles was Bomberman. It suffered from the exact same problem as Bakufuu and DS—namely the lack of innovation. In fact, it was somehow an even worse rehash than DS. Fans (what little there were after the whole Act:Zero fiasco) felt that the series was starting to stagnate.
  • Then there were four Land games—one for the PSP, another for the Wii and two for the DS. All of them were localized (unlike the previous titles) and all of them were very poorly received (though the DS entries were Vindicated by History due to their mini-games being more "Bomberman-esque" than past installments). The PSP Land is widely considered to be one of the worst Bomberman games by fans as it not only has the most banal plot and dialogue in the series history (including the park director rewarding you for 100% Completion by flat out telling you he doesn't plan on giving you anything for it despite the effort it took to get 100% as well as heavy Flanderization for the main characters), it also recycles nearly all of its mini-gamesnote , costumes, and music from Land 3. Fans were convinced that Racjin would kill the franchise though Hudson at least ended the Land series after these titles.
  • Bomberman Live (Ultra on the Play Station 3) was supposed to be an apology for Act:Zero, being developed with American fans in mind. While critics loved it, fans were split—some loved it for its Battle Mode-centric gameplay while others hated it for that exact reason, feeling that it was falling into the same trap as Online and Act:Zero before it. Both sides agreed that the game wasn't what the series needed to get back on track. It later got a sequel in 2010...that ended up being the last Bomberman game for a few years.
  • In 2007, Hudson teamed up with Shockwave game developer 55shock to develop yet another online Bomberman game. The end result was Bomberman Online Japan which officially launched on September 10, 2008 (after two weeks of private beta testing). Despite being positively received and having a somewhat small but loyal playerbase, the game went on hiatus on January 31, 2009... which became permament on June 3, 2009. This was primarily due to the Japanese Shockwave webpage closing in January 2009, taking down 55shock with it. Making matters worse is the fact that Hudson had big plans for the game, including a western release and even a 2010 Bomberman World Cup! Unfortunately, the game's closure after four months squandered those plans.
  • After Hudson went into the depths of bankruptcy and sold their IPs to Konami, the franchise laid dormant for a few years...until the release of Super Bomberman R in 2017. While the game was initially criticized by fans at launch for being derivative of Hudson's Super Bomberman games and for being an Obvious Beta upon release, it has since been praised for being a return to form for the series.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jan 10th 2022 at 2:20:53 PM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#252: Jan 11th 2022 at 10:35:36 PM

Perhaps make it a subpage for seasonal rot under the video games folder and divide each into actual entries rather than a whiny essay? Seems to be a case not dissimilar to Fairly Oddparents where its heavily debated where exactly the rot set in.

Anyways, anyone want to investigate the potential misuses of Seasonal Rot I’ve higlighted on the previous page? I think at the very least Angel, Monster Rancher, and Magic the Gathering could be cut, while Pokemon could maybe be rewritten.

Edited by xie323 on Jan 11th 2022 at 10:38:25 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#253: Jan 12th 2022 at 1:10:26 AM

[up][up]I'm pretty sure it's five years after the work's release, but the No Recent Examples, Please! entry (which was done through that index's thread and not this thread) isn't clear about that.

Also, could I get some feedback on this post I made on the previous page?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 12th 2022 at 3:11:13 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
JustaUsername from Melbourne, Australia Since: Jul, 2009
#254: Jan 12th 2022 at 11:34:47 PM

It's supposed to be five years after the Dork Age, or rather, Audience Alienating Era began. I guess I'll have to edit the page to put that in.

[up]Also I feel that maybe we need a Sandbox but I'm no expert repair guy so I feel a more experienced person should voice their opinion.

Edited by JustaUsername on Jan 13th 2022 at 6:37:05 AM

Some people say I'm lazy. It's hard to disagree.
ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#255: Jan 15th 2022 at 11:54:33 AM

So, does Dork Age/Seasonal Rot/ whatever we're calling it now refer to viewership or to the actual quality of the work? I'm asking because I went on the "Dork Age" page for TV networks, and I found that a majority of the instances were focused on the perceived quality of the programming, rather than its popularity. The one for Cartoon Network— which has been reverted since my last edit to it— is a good example.

WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#256: Jan 15th 2022 at 11:55:25 AM

Dork Age (which is now Audience-Alienating Era) is for popularity, Seasonal Rot is quality. The pages haven't been completely cleaned yet.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#257: Jan 15th 2022 at 12:00:00 PM

I see. But I don't think either of those can really apply to whole TV networks.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#258: Jan 15th 2022 at 1:38:56 PM

It's not Audience-Alienating Era quite yet, because only one person responded to my question of whether we need to sandbox the description or whether Dork Age's current description can be moved as-is. If it can be moved as-is, I'll move it; the reason I haven't is because I wasn't sure whether that was a good idea.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 15th 2022 at 3:41:40 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#259: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:09:14 PM

I just feel like, whatever we call it, it's going to end up being a magnet for complaining. I've been paying particular attention to the TV networks page, where a majority of the examples can essentially be summed up as "the network cancelled a bunch of good and/or debuted a bunch of bad shows", with no regard for, say, the circumstances regarding that. The Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon sections, for example, are full of complaints about those networks' tendency to overdo Spongebob and Teen Titans Go marathons.

That's not what this trope should be used for, and it's steering dangerously towards Complaining About Shows You Don't Like. I've tried to edit those sections to be more neutral in tone and less complaining, but whenever I do it, they always get changed back.

Edited by ElSquibbonator on Jan 15th 2022 at 8:11:01 AM

WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#260: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:11:00 PM

Well, like I said; the pages still need cleanup.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#261: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:14:24 PM

There's also the issue that, in theory, anyone could declare a period of time in which certain works were released to be a Dork Age if they personally dislike the works in question.

Edited by ElSquibbonator on Jan 15th 2022 at 8:18:10 AM

WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#262: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:15:31 PM

Not really. We have requirements. The work needs to suffer a decline in popularity and ratings.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#263: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:20:47 PM

To continue with the example I gave earlier, one editor on the TV Networks page seems utterly convinced that Cartoon Network is in a new Dork Age that began in 2020 when Tom Aschiem became head of the network. And it is within their right to believe that.

But that is not an opinion I have seen frequently, and if Dork Ages— or whatever we're calling them now— are decided by popular opinion after a certain period of time, then I do not think it is fair to list this as one on the site based on the hunch of a single editor. And while it's true that the network has suffered a decrease in ratings over the past few years, the same can also be said of every other kids' TV network, due to competition from streaming services. The new CEO probably had little to do with that.

My point is, I think that this system, no matter how clearly we establish the rules, is one that people will still abuse in order to complain.

Edited by ElSquibbonator on Jan 15th 2022 at 8:21:41 AM

themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#264: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:34:23 PM

I've tried to edit those sections to be more neutral in tone and less complaining, but whenever I do it, they always get changed back.

one editor on the TV Networks page seems utterly convinced that Cartoon Network is in a new Dork Age that began in 2020 when Tom Aschiem became head of the network

Are there users edit warring on the page? If so, you might want to bring them to ATT.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jan 15th 2022 at 8:34:34 AM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#265: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:36:50 PM

I'm not disputing that there's a lot of problems with the current page. But I think the new title, coupled with wick and page cleaning, will at least make the issue more manageable. I think it's too early to assume we have an issue based on the old examples.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#266: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:53:50 PM

I looked over the TV Networks page again and I noticed a glut of walls of text that, as Squibbonator mentioned, were filled with complaining.

That page has some serious issues. If we do end up doing a cleanup thread, that page is going to take a lot of work. And as I mentioned before, if people try to revert everything, they may need to be reported to ATT.

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#267: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:56:19 PM

My assumption was that we'd only move the valid examples to the new page, rather than move everything wholesale and then clean it.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#268: Jan 15th 2022 at 5:57:29 PM

[up] Ah OK. That page will still be quite a bit of work due to the bloated walls of text. I already brought up an entry about [adult swim] in the Is this an example? thread because I questioned its validity.

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#269: Jan 16th 2022 at 3:13:29 PM

If the page has problems in its current state, then does that mean the description needs to be sandboxed before the rename officially occurs? I've been trying to ask if a sandbox is needed for the description instead of just using the page mover to move the contents as-is, but I can't seem to get a clear answer despite asking three other times up to this point.

ElSquibbonator's posts are starting to feel like derails at this point due to how they're distracting from the question of how to handle the page move, and I'd rather not have to start thumping posts.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 16th 2022 at 5:58:30 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#270: Jan 16th 2022 at 4:06:03 PM

Some observations

I don't think there's policy of a "correct"order of rename-description-move, but it at least makes sense to do cleanup AFTER both...

And the questions of long, complainy entries on both are valid (since in my experience looking at entries for long runners, if someone wants to complain, they will without regard to whether it's a commonly held opinion in the audience) and relevant to the question of "Are the descriptions ready?" if you're asking how such entries inform the descriptions... Otherwise, the TV network thing is a cleanup job to untangle after the tropes are separated.

Nobody likes writing descriptions.

I assumed the time limit on the dork age is after the dork age has ended, but I guess I'm wrong.

(I dislike both of these and have barely paid attention to this thread.)

WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#271: Jan 16th 2022 at 4:13:54 PM

I'd rather make the new description and then move good examples over; that way we don't need a massive page cleanup immediately afterward.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#272: Jan 16th 2022 at 4:20:43 PM

I went ahead and moved Dork Age to Audience-Alienating Era due to the trouble I had getting an answer. Here are the wicks.

The subpages need to be cleaned up as well, and maybe also the description.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 16th 2022 at 6:46:50 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
UnderlyingCause Leader of the Menagerie from Turlock, CA Since: Dec, 2020 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Leader of the Menagerie
#273: Jan 17th 2022 at 1:29:59 PM

That's great. I updated the renamed tropes section of the Trope Epitaph to reflect the rename.

I'll be over on DeviantArt if you need me.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#274: Jan 17th 2022 at 2:01:44 PM

I neglected to mention that I already recorded the rename in the Renamed Tropes thread, the relevant Renamed Tropes page, and the old discussion page.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Duludubi Since: May, 2016
#275: Jan 19th 2022 at 2:16:24 PM

It honestly annoys me that listing the Wii U/3DS era for Super Mario Bros in Dork Age was barred off considering the series was struggling in popularity and relevancy at the time. Sure it remained a recognizable brand, but I remember frequently seeing people shrugging off Mario and comparing it to Call of Duty in terms of oversaturation.

Trope Repair Shop: Dork Age rename
3rd Jan '22 6:25:10 PM

Crown Description:

Consensus was to rename Dork Age. What should its new name be?

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