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Not Tropeworthy: Short Title Long Elaborate Subtitle

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Mar 15th 2019 at 9:02:08 AM

The Short Title: Long, Elaborate Subtitle description reads:

"A common form of title, sometimes used in academic works, that can sound rather pretentious. Only the first bit is usually used in reviews or discussion.

"May be used to evoke an older era, when such subtitles were more common, or a faux-academic style."

The examples hardly demonstrate that the creator chose the title as a throwback or to mimic academic style. Many do not strike me as particularly elaborate and are cases of "sensible title explains what the work is". That's People Sit on Chairs.

In the wick check, I look for 1. whether example subtitle is long and elaborate (6 or more words is a reasonable requirement), 2. whether example evokes an older era or academia, as the description says. If it doesn't, then there's probably no meaning behind it.

    Wick check 
  • Censored Title: Alien movies using [Short Title]: The Making of Alien ____. Not long/elaborate.
  • Long Title: Listed as a subtrope.
  • Officially Shortened Title: Mentions this trope as comparison.
  • Spex: Part of the explanation for Pun-Based Title, also breaks "Do Not Add Multiple Tropes With A Slash" rule.
  • This Trope Name References Itself: Index.
  • Active Raid: Active Raid: Special Public Security Fifth Division Third Mobile Assault Eighth Unit. Correctly long, but I don't know if it alludes to either of the things stated in the trope description.
  • Blood: The Last Vampire: Blood: The Last Vampire. Not long/elaborate.
  • Below Board: Below Board: A Tale of Police and Politics in 1930s New Orleans potholes to this trope.
  • Pat Patriot: America's Joan of Arc: Pat Patriot: America's Joan of Arc. Not long/elaborate.
  • Starlight: Starlight: The Return of Duke McQueen. Not long/elaborate.
  • Andre Norton: Scarface: Being the story of one Justin Blade, late of the pirate isle of Tortuga, and how fate deal justly deal with him to his great profit. Correct, but ZCE. Assumed that title evokes earlier time period.
  • Cardcaptor Rad: ZCE.
  • Officer Misako: Officer Misako: Case of Amoresi. Not long/elaborate.
  • Being Human A Portal Fanfic: Being Human Or, A Scientific Study on the Behavioral and Social Aspects of Homo Sapiens in its Natural Habitat Facilitated through the use of an Aperture Science Personality Construct. Correct, but ZCE. Assumed to be faux-academic.
  • Game Theory (Lyrical Nanoha): Teatime With Tea (The Super Mega Best Bestest Recap of Anything Ever). This is long but neither academic nor an old-timey allusion.
  • Ali: Fear Eats the Soul: Ali: Fear Eats the Soul. Not long/elaborate.
  • Chang: Chang: A Drama of the Wilderness. Not long/elaborate.
  • Cosmos: War of the Planets: Cosmos: War of the Planets. Not long/elaborate.
  • Department Q: The Keeper of Lost Causes: Department Q: The Keeper of Lost Causes. Not long/elaborate.
  • Escape 2000: 1990: The Bronx Warriors. Not long/elaborate.
  • Frostbiter: Wrath of the Wendigo: Frostbiter: Wrath of the Wendigo. Not long/elaborate.
  • Noob: Le Conseil des Trois Factions: Noob: Le Conseil des Trois Factions. Not long/elaborate.
  • Precious: Precious: Based on the novel 'Push' by Sapphire. This is just a "based on" subtitle.
  • Sandra: Sandra (Of a Thousand Delights). Not a subtitle. Not long/elaborate.
  • Sherman's March: Sherman's March: A Possibility of Romantic Love In the South During an Era of Nuclear Weapons Proliferation. Correct. I assume the Civil War-era mentions had to do with the naming of the film.
  • Sunrise: Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans. Not long/elaborate.
  • R.L. Yoshi: Subversion(?) of a title that wasn't that long or elaborate to begin with: Aperture Tag: The Paint Gun Testing Initiative.
  • Shimoneta: Shimoneta: A Boring World Where the Concept of Dirty Jokes Doesn't Exist. Long subtitle, but ZCE.
  • Flora Segunda: Very long subtitles, the first of which potholes to this trope. Correct? Sounds old-timey anyway.
  • Max Havelaar: German: Max Havelaar, of de koffiveilingen der Nederlandsche Handelsmaatschappy; English: Max Havelaar, or the coffee auctions of the Dutch Trading Company. Misuse. Both are examples of Either/Or Title. Will consider them correct.
  • Literature/Merlin: Pure ZCE. I have no idea what the "long title" is.
  • Pan Tadeusz: Pan Tadeusz, czyli Ostatni zajazd na Litwie: historia szlachecka z roku 1811 i 1812 we dwunastu ksiegach wierszem. Title potholes to trope. Correct for old-timeyness.
  • Sorcery & Cecelia: Sorcery & Cecelia or The Enchanted Chocolate Pot: Being the Correspondence of Two Young Ladies of Quality Regarding Various Magical Scandals in London and the Country. ZCE. Given that it's a Gaslamp Fantasy, I will consider it correct.
  • Gan Kon: Gan Kon: My Wife is a Beautiful God! Not particularly long or elaborate.
  • Hips Don't Lie: SerŠ, SerŠ (Las Caderas No Mienten) potholes to the trope. Not a subtitle.
  • Lana Del Rey: Gramma (Blue Ribbon Sparkler Trailer Heaven). Also not a subtitle.
  • Sabaton: Union (Slopes of St. Benedict). Also not a subtitle.
  • SeaWorld: Antarctica: Empire of the Penguin. Not long/elaborate.
  • Rab C. Nesbitt: A Stranger Here Myself: Being the Life Story and Revelations of Mister Rab C. Nesbitt of Govan. Correct? But ZCE.
  • The Daily Show with Jon Stewart: ZCE.
  • Halloween Horror Nights: ZCE.
  • Waterworld: A Live Sea War Spectacular: Waterworld: A Live Sea War Spectacular: Not long/elaborate.
  • Another Code: The "a bit longer" suggests misuse.
  • DanceDanceRevolution: ZETA ~The World of Prime Numbers and the Transcendental Being~. Long subtitle, but ZCE.
  • Fallout: Fallout: A Post-Nuclear Role Playing Game potholes to this trope.
  • X: Beyond the Frontier: X: Beyond the Frontier. Not long/elaborate.
  • Dark Parables: ZCE. There are twelve titles, none of them long/elaborate.
  • Efa Fairy Tale Of The Two: ZCE.
  • Video Game High School: VGHS: Video Game High School. The subtitle explains the initialism.
  • Planetary Moe: Planetary Moe, or: Solar System and Friends. Mentioned as part of Either/Or Title and not an example of this trope.

That's 9/50 correct uses by my standards, ignoring the fact that every example contains nothing after the bullet or just restates the title. Sure, what counts as "long" and "elaborate" is a bit subjective, but the short titles in the wicks show that the definition is way too lax. A good title trope says/suggests something about the work. Like Excited Show Title! wants you to know that the show is fun/exciting/funny. Short Title: Long, Elaborate Subtitle's examples do not explain at all what the purpose of their title is.

I propose cutting the page. This is an unnecessary subtrope of Long Title. All "correct" uses can be moved to Long Title if they aren't already there.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Apr 14th 2019 at 9:55:02 PM

Opening and bumping but not convinced that cutting is warranted. Title tropes often do not say much by default.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
RamenChef Image Pickin's Simon Cowell from UTC-6:00 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Image Pickin's Simon Cowell
Apr 15th 2019 at 7:08:39 AM

I think we should rename the trope to have a more self-demonstrating title, then clean up misuse.

This message was written on a hamster.
Apr 15th 2019 at 10:36:41 AM

How do we determine misuse? Decide how many words (or a ratio of words) makes the subtitle long? The trope shouldn't just be "the stuff after the colon is longer than the stuff before", because we get ridiculous examples like "Blood: The Last Vampire". We can't have such a low threshold for what constitutes "long, elaborate".

There's also the second paragraph of the description: "May be used to evoke an older era, when such subtitles were more common, or a faux-academic style". Well, saying "may" could mean it's not a must, but most of the examples to begin with don't evoke either old-timeyness or academia. What is this trope about then? All media with titles that have a colon and a certain word count?

Edited by Tabs on Apr 15th 2019 at 10:36:49 AM

Apr 15th 2019 at 7:35:44 PM

As Septimus says, we have pretty low standards when it comes to title tropes. Like what's the big meaning behind The Place or The X of Y? These are basically indices. That said, my lower limit would be seven words in the subtitle to justify "elaborate".

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Apr 16th 2019 at 4:53:22 PM

I believe this trope has more to do with Officially Shortened Title than currently detailed. The (shorter) title is the way the author expects people to name the work, while the subtitle is providing more detail about the work (hopefully to Exactly What It Says on the Tin standards). That is, the subtitle should be elaborating upon the context of the Officially Shortened Title.

I like the minimum of seven words, but would also like to see it be a minimum of twice the length of the main title. The Hope of Jeriska: Annalie Gallium, Hero to the Peasant People does little to expound upon the context.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Apr 16th 2019 at 6:28:38 PM

As far as title tropes go, I think this one has a lot more substance than most, as itís often parodied and does evoke a particular era of literature.

Would support clarifying the requirements as per [up], and cleaning up misuse. Would not support a cut. I also canít see how another title could improve on conveying the concept.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
RamenChef Image Pickin's Simon Cowell from UTC-6:00 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Image Pickin's Simon Cowell
Apr 16th 2019 at 7:10:25 PM

[up]The current title is trying to demonstrate the trope (which is understandable since it's a title trope), but doesn't meet the 7-word minimum as stated above.

Maybe as a new title: "Short Title: A Very Long, Needlessly Elaborate Subtitle" or "Short Title: A Very Long, Needlessly Elaborate Subtitle That Takes a Long Time to Say"

Edited by RamenChef on Apr 17th 2019 at 11:56:54 AM

This message was written on a hamster.
Apr 17th 2019 at 9:34:27 AM

If the name of the trope remains as-is, can it be removed from the This Trope Name References Itself index? That invites misuse in a "a 3-word subtitle is long and elaborate? Then let me list other examples that don't really count!" kind of way.

naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Apr 17th 2019 at 10:33:43 AM

[up][up] Gotcha. Maybe something like Short Title: Long Elaborate Subtitle In Which The Major Premise of A Work is Described In Far More Detail Than is Conventional

Is there a character limit to work/page titles on the wiki? That might impede this somewhat.

Weird how there's no crosswicking between this and In Which a Trope Is Described, I feel like there is often overlap

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Apr 17th 2019 at 10:46:30 AM

There is a limit, although I'd be more cautious about users forgetting the longer title if it's too long (presumably why we stopped using this trope in general).

Short Title Long Elaborate Subtitle For Adding More Context fulfils the requirements discussed, while being reasonably short and using some wiki terminology. I see general agreement, but I'd definitely like to see a crowner for renaming if that's where we're going.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Apr 17th 2019 at 1:47:50 PM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Apr 18th 2019 at 2:19:07 AM

^ Seems a little long for my taste.

GastonRabbit His own thang from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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Berrenta Here comes the sun~ from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Here comes the sun~
Apr 23rd 2019 at 6:10:01 AM

Personally, I'm not a fan of renaming just for the sake of self demonstrating. The title's clear enough as is, in my opinion; maybe we should just clean up misuse.

However, if we do end up renaming...nothing too long, please.

Edited by Berrenta on Apr 23rd 2019 at 8:10:33 AM

TRS needs your help!
Apr 23rd 2019 at 6:16:03 AM

Clear, Concise, Witty are prioritized in that order. Making the trope name too long would go against the "concise" part for the sake of "witty".

Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
Apr 23rd 2019 at 7:45:48 AM

Personally, I wonder if this is the sort of thing that belongs on Just For Fun, whether due to a lack of narrative intent or context or the subjective nature of what counts as "long" or "short".

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Apr 23rd 2019 at 8:00:42 AM

~Berrenta, ~Zuxtron, and ~Brainulator9 — Would the three of you like to chime in on the proposed length requirements as well?

  • Subtitle is at least seven words long
  • Subtitle is at least twice the length of the shorter title.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
Apr 23rd 2019 at 8:01:51 AM

[up] That works too. [tup]

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
Apr 23rd 2019 at 8:17:17 AM

I don't really have a strong opinion on the exact specifics of what makes a subtitle "long".

naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Apr 23rd 2019 at 8:36:16 AM

This is very much a trope. Itís a deliberate choice by the author, and conveys information about the work. Itís also an unusual and highly stylized way to name something. What do these titles mean?

Support adding a strict criterion and revamping the description. Neutral on a rename.

Edited by naturalironist on Apr 23rd 2019 at 11:37:03 AM

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Apr 23rd 2019 at 10:10:05 AM

[up][up][up][up] That looks good. I'm neutral-ish about renaming, but if 1. doing so removes the invitation to add misuse - seeing as the current title itself doesn't adhere to either of crazysamaritan's bullets above - and 2. it's easier to do than produce specific criteria of "long, elaborate", then I'm for it.

Berrenta Here comes the sun~ from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Here comes the sun~
Apr 23rd 2019 at 10:55:45 AM

To respond to crazysamaritan: Either works for me. [tup]

TRS needs your help!
Apr 29th 2019 at 9:07:27 AM

Bump for votes, looks like it's a "no"

Single Proposition: Short Title Long Elaborate Subtitle
18th Apr '19 10:25:46 AM
Vote up for yes, down for no.
At issue:
Should Short Title Long Elaborate Subtitle be renamed?

Total posts: 42
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