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openDeletions on Classical Mythology pages Literature
Classical Mythology has a long and often contradictory history, but recently I've noticed Drakos25 has been deleting some entries alongside moving things to different pages, without edit reasons (I thought the Maia folder was deleted from the Mortals and Demigods page by mistake and added it back, but on looking at their edit history it turns out they had moved it to the Titans page).
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Characters.ClassicalMythologyOlympians
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/el.php?findfor=Drakos25
Edited by lalalei2001openTroper re-added Foil example despite me explaining why they do not meet Foil standards. Literature
From what I understand, Foil requires the two characters to 1) have both similar and different characterisation, and 2) actually be seen together and have interactions that purposely highlight (1). Sources: the page description, Square Peg, Round Trope, Foil thread 1, Foil thread 2. (The second criteria has apparently become debatable, but it's generally the rule.)
When I recently moved the Foil subpage Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation: Mo Dao Zu Shi I also removed a lot of examples (history of the original page here for reference) because they didn't meet one of the above criteria (usually (2)), which I made clear in my edit reason. The original editor added back three of them, saying two of the characters have similar stories and therefore they and their friends are intentional foils.
The three examples in question:
- Wei Wuxian and Xiao Xingchen - violates (2); they never met/knew each other, their only "interaction"/connection is WWX investigating XXC's death in one arc; he does comment on their similarly tragic downfalls, but that's it
- Xue Yang and Lan Wangji - violates (1); they are polar opposites in every way, the only thing they have in common is that they both mourned their friends' deaths which I don't think counts as a proper similarity
- Song Lan and Jiang Cheng - violates (2); they never met/knew each other, have no connection, the characters/narration never once compares them, zilch
At most, I can see the first pair being okay if we're lenient with (2) (I don't disagree that the author intended to compare them, just unsure if significant enough to be Foils). I'm confident the other two are still misuse. Would like some confirmation if my evaluation is in/correct before I remove or edit the examples.
Edited by RhapsodyopenClassical Mythology edits Literature
Alexandra Guardian has been serially tweaking Classical Mythology and related pages, such as Awesome.Classical Mythology and HappilyMarried.Myths And Religion, and either reorganizing sections and folders completely (the Awesome page now has examples divided by two enter spaces), deleting entries with no given reason (Happily Married had Hades and Persephone's entry zapped when, abduction aside, they had one of the healthiest marriages in the pantheon), or un-commenting out Zero Context Examples with no reason given (on Theatre.Oedipus At Colonus). The amount of edits to these and other pages, going by their history, is extensive, and on looking at the unrelated page Characters.The Remarried Empress I noticed a tendency to add Walls of Text.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/el.php?findfor=AlexandraGuardian
Edited by lalalei2001openArticle Subject changed Literature
I commented out multiple ZC Es on Magical Girls and then checked the history. Apparently, the article was originally about a 2014 novel by Jesse Brown, but in 2019, Latte Rumor changed it to be about a 2018 novel by Hannah Conrad. They deleted a lot of the article with no explanation. I only figured this out by looking up the author names.
Edited by WalkinshadowsopenAgenda-based edit Literature
On the YMMV page for the Alex Rider series, Ollie19-10 added this to the Die for Our Ship entry: "Sabina-bashing is sometimes seen in fics for any pairing, though it is not limited to ship or slash fics. The hatred of this character is likely due to fandom trends of gender-based Double Standards in fandoms (not just Alex Rider) that are rooted in societal internalized misogyny." I'm thinking this should be cut for obvious reasons.
Edited by Javertshark13openArticle for a non-fiction book Literature
The Mouse Betrayed is a non-fiction exposé of corruption in the Walt Disney company. I suppose it could be troped by the way it frames the facts, like one entry (Amusement Park of Doom) tries to do, but otherwise the entries are commenting on the author and their rigour (or lack of). My opinion is that the article is off-mission to the wiki and contains very little information of value, and it should be cutlisted. But I would like to hear from others first.
openDesignated Heroes in fantasy books Literature
I must contest the use of Designated Hero in The Chronicles of Narnia and Harry Potter.
The main Designated Hero page says Aslan qualifies for the trope because:
- In The Magician's Nephew he grants all the animals the ability to speak, but he makes it so that if they continue to behave like natural animals, they will lose that gift. He also decrees that non-speaking animals will be the lowest class in the Narnian hierarchy, while humans will rule over everyone else. In hindsight he is making it so that animals who chose to follow their instincts and nature are the lowest of the low, while humans, who in reality don't have the best track record for living with natural things they can't control, get to rule all. Additionally, the morality of Narnia could be summed up like this: you're either with Aslan and you're "good", or you're with someone else or independent and you're evil.
- In The Horse and His Boy, he wounds Princess Aravis in the back because her handmaiden had helped Aravis escape her arranged marriage and was punished for it. Aslan intended that Aravis know the handmaiden's suffering, even though she didn't really deserve it and had gone through enough hell already.
- In Prince Caspian it's implied he turned a group of fat boys into pigs for no reason than that they were fat.
- In The Last Battle he does something that every other designated hero ever written would call him on, he outright destroys Narnia.
Since C. S. Lewis was a devoted Christian and Aslan was meant to be a fantastic version of Jesus Christ, I think this has more to do with religious differences than anything else.
As for Harry Potter, the YMMV page says that Harry and Hermione qualify for the trope because:
- Hermione is often accused of being this, as she usually painted as being in the right whenever she does something morally questionable, like jinxing the D.A. sign-up sheet to permanently disfigure traitors, knowingly leaving Umbridge with the centaurs so that they could do something traumatizing to her, and abusing Ron whether he deserved it or not.
- Harry Potter through the course of his adventures, despite the great demands of fighting a Dark Wizard, never stops slacking off his studies, breaks countless school rules, displays poor sportsmanship and rarely considering the interests of his team or how it could affect them and their standing when he goes off on his own, and in Book 6, via the Potions book, indulges in what is more or less academic plagiarism. Likewise, while painted as an All-Loving Hero he is shown using two of the Unforgivable Curses (Imperio and Crucio) without any reprimand from his peers and elders even if both are considered taboo In-Universe, and one of them is a curse that tortures people (which he used before the highly moral McGonagall).
J. K. Rowling said that Harry and his friends were never meant to be saints, they are fallible human beings that make mistakes, get angry and are forced into extreme circumstances, not to mention, the Harry Potter fandom is one of the most notorious and controversial fandoms in recent memory.
What do you say?
Edited by MasterHeroopenLiterature or Fanfic Literature
Sister Floriana is currently listed under the Fanfic namespace, as it is based on a series of drawings. However, it interprets the drawings in its own way. So should it stay in Fanfic or move to Literature?
openPotential trope misuse in Harry Potter Literature
A few days ago, I deleted this tropes from Harry Potter's character page:
- Adaptational Jerkass: Downplayed. Harry still saved Cedric from the vines in the Maze but he noticeably hesitated before doing so, something that didn't happen in the books.
- Adaptational Nice Guy: Downplayed, as Harry is still a Nice Guy, but in the books he had No Sympathy for Cho's lingering grief over Cedric and could be insensitive. In the films, they have a smoother relationship, probably also thanks to Cho also becoming nicer in the adaptations.
I deleted them because not only because these tropes are mutually exclusive, they only describe small moments in the movie series and they don't define Harry's entire character in the movie series. Healthyfan89 added them back, saying that "they do fit harry in the adaptation sense. yes, it wasn't too overt so it's downplayed instead of played straight but it's still worth noting given he initially hesitated to save cedric and even admitted to thinking about leaving him (something that didn't cross his mind in the books); plus part of the reason his relationship with cho felled in the books was because of his insensitivity and No Sympathy attitude (with said relationship being more smooth in the films). So, while both are downplayed examples, they still fit."
What should we do about this?
openSource for this trivia fact Literature
Under No Adaptations Allowed it is said that Roald Dahl put it in his will that there be no film adaptations of Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator, given that he hated the 1971 film did. While I do acknowledge that he refused an adaptation of the book while alive, I can't find sources that he put in his will that no film adaptations are permitted. I'm asking because the 2018 Netflix deal with the Roald Dahl Story Company includes that book in the agreement, so I'm trying to figure out if its a loophole in the will or there was no such stipulation in the first place.
openTime to Break Up Millennium Trilogy? Literature
I was looking over the The Millennium Trilogy pages recently, and it's rather hard to navigate because there's not a lot of distinction made between the books, the Swedish movies, and the American movies. I was wondering if perhaps we should separate them; the Swedish movies will remain as Millennium Trilogy, tropes and moments pertaining to the books could be moved to Lizbeth Salander (as the book series is no longer a trilogy, anyway) and the tropes pertaining to the American movies could be moved to The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo and The Girl in the Spider's Web, respectively. Does this make any sense?
EDIT: I see there is already a film page for Spider's Web.
Edited by StrixObscuroopenNatter on Classical Mythology pages Literature
I was browsing the Classical Mythology pages again and noticed a lot of natter under the Sadly Mythtaken sections, specifically Hades', so I tried to clean it up while staying true to the examples given. Today, The_Taming_Interpreter reverted them back to how they were before, saying more details would serve the section more efficiently. I sent a natter notification, but can't revert the changes since that'd be an edit war.
Given the frequency of issues cropping up I think we might need a mythology pages clean-up section.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Characters.ClassicalMythologyOlympians
Edited by lalalei2001resolved Close to being an edit war? Literature
JaidebeccaShipper removed the word "transphobic" from this entry:
- Audience-Alienating Premise: The book tells the story of a little boy named Johnny who loves to role-play as different animals and objects. One day, he decides that he wants to be a walrus. This (somehow) causes everyone to treat him as if he actually wants to become a walrus, culminating in a doctor suggesting that Johnny eat worms and have his limbs cut off in an allegory for hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery — a metaphor that would only be understood by the transphobic adults in Walsh's audience who would purchase it, despite the book being illustrated and ostensibly presented as a children's book. Walsh boasted that it was the best-selling book in Amazon's LGBTQ+ category, only for Amazon to recategorize it to Political and Social Commentary and for Target to completely remove it from its online storefront.
With the edit reason: " Arguing against an ideology is not transphobic, just like not following a religion doesn't mean you hate people of that religion."
Moroaica added "transphobic" back to the entry with the edit reason: "trans medication isn't 'ideology' and opposition to that is transphobic."
I'm not sure what do here. But my observation is that they're both troping with an agenda (but hey, correct me if that observation is wrong).
On a related note, Moroaica removed this entry:
- Narm Charm: The Zookeeper Author Avatar looking like Walsh is something that fans of the book consistently praise.
Their edit reason for removing it was: "This book has no actual 'fans'"
As much as I disagree with this book's message, this isn't true. The book certainly does have fans and those who agree with Walsh's message. It feels like Moroaica is being disingenuous here and biased.
Edited by AudioSpeaks2openShakespeare's Henry VI plays Literature
Henry VI Part 1, Henry VI Part 2 and Henry VI Part 3 all have opening paragraphs attributing the plays to Shakespeare and Marlowe jointly. (Well, I removed it on Part 3, then decided to ATT before doing any more editing.) I've never heard of this theory before, but after a little research, I found that the 2016 edition of the Oxford Shakespeare does have this attribution. While this is a prominent edition, the attribution is definitely controversial and I don't think it should be presented as if it were simple fact.
I'm not sure of the best solution — mention the theory with a parenthetical explaining the source, or hide it away in a note, or don't mention it at all?
Edited by ViluiopenThe Character Sheet for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory should be split into subpages Literature
The character folder for most characters are incredibly long since they represent the characters from all different adaptions, I think that the page should be split into:
Characters. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005 Film)
Characters. Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
Characters. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (Literature)
Characters. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2010 Opera)
I just think it will be much more easy to browse the articles instead of having all the categories being on one page.
Edited by SithPanda16openBadly-made work page Literature
This page seems very inappropriately made. The issue of self-promotion aside, it contains many instances of This Troper, use of first person and a fair amount of Natter. Anyone familiar with the work care to do some clean-up?
Edited by LogoPopenHarry Potter Acceptable Targets Literature
On the Harry Potter Philosopher's Stone YMMV page, there's this entry for Acceptable Targets:
- Overweight boys. Dudley's weight is openly scorned, with the supposed justification of Rowling's implicit association of it with parental indulgence. Years later, Rowling, outraged at the pressure on girls to be thin, called fat insults "strange and sick." Perhaps as an Author's Saving Throw, later books blame Vernon and Petunia for Dudley's weight, with Dumbledore outright calling them out for inflicting a different kind of abuse on their own son. Dudley also picks up boxing, and switches from being morbidly obese to an example of Stout Strength.
And also on the Goblet of Fire YMMV page:
- Overweight boys. Dudley's increased weight, while treated with some seriousness, is still Played for Laughs. Implied association in previous books of his weight with parental indulgence, his comical resentment of his diet, Fred and George's playful hope for a glimpse of the "great bullying git," and Fred slipping him a toffee which magically engorges his tongue seem to dismiss obesity as idleness. Years later, Rowling, outraged at the pressure on girls to be thin, called fat insults "strange and sick."
I don't feel that these are valid examples of Acceptable Targets. I explained my reasoning on the Goblet of Fire discussion page. But basically, while it's true that Dudley's weight is poked fun of, I don't see how that applies to overweight boys as a whole. I think that's a stretch. Hagrid is another heavy-set character, and a much nicer and more likeable person, and his weight isn't made fun of (as far as I can remember anyway; it's been a while since I read the books). To me, the entries feel like they're more targeted at J.K. Rowling herself to criticize her apparent hypocrisy on the issue, but I don't see how Rowling's comment in itself really has anything to do with Harry Potter. (I do agree with Rowling's later stance; I just feel it's a separate issue.)
But that's just my take on it. I wanted to get some other opinions.
Edited by StardustSoldieropenLiterature Recap Pages Literature
Is it just me or are most of the Recap pages in the Literature section being misused.
Looking through the pages they appear to consist of just lists of the books in the same series, the same lists but with a brief synopsis, or links to pages that contain that contain detailed synopsis of the entire plot but no tropes.
Also if a work has enough tropes that they can be split across pages for individual books; then I have to wonder why they aren't in the literature namespace rather than the recap namespace (such as with the Harry Potter books), as this can create redundancies such as with the The Dresden Files which has both work pages and recap pages troping the individual books.
PrincessPandaTrope moved the Gameknight 999 Series, a series of unofficial Minecraft novels, to the Fanfic namespace. I had originally put them under the Literature namespace because while they weren't officially sanctioned by Mojang or Microsoft they were still published novels I found in the library, and are currently published under Simon & Schuster, the third-largest US publishing company.
What namespace would be correct?
EDIT: Fanfic.Diary Of A Minecraft Zombie is also under that namespace despite also being published for real.
Edited by lalalei2001