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Great! I'm the one who started the Trope Talk thread for those curious.
So how do we do this? Start with a wick check? I was thinking to tackle works I'm familiar with first.
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I think wick checks are more to help a TRS, which is its own kind of cleanup, but just starting with possible misuse in what you're familiar with is a good call.
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I will as soon as I'm able. I think I'll start with the Yu-Gi-Oh! ARC-V page, which has a lot of examples that fall under subtropes and some misuses. Kind of make a guideline of what we're looking for. I think some examples will also need to be rewritten - in general, not just this page.
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ACCIDENTAL DUPLICATE PRE EDIT
Edited by Lermis on Jun 18th 2023 at 5:18:14 PM
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LONG POST AHEAD:
OK, let's start with the ARC-V tropes. I went to the dedicated page for it. Here are some of them. Can anyone give me an opinion on the examples?
By order:
- The Uniqueness Value of the ace cards used by the protagonists is deconstructed by Pendulum Monsters. Yuya having the only ones makes him a target for people who want to steal them, others think he's a cheater that uses hacked cards, and yet others think he's a coward for relying on an unfair advantage no one else has. This is further deconstructed in that when Reiji and Leo Corp find out about Pendulum Monsters, they start replicating them for mass production, stunning Yuya when he learns he's not the only Pendulum user anymore.
- Furthermore the fact that Pendulum cards are so new means that there isn't an archetype built to counter them, so whenever an enemy gets their hands on some Pendulum cards dueling them becomes extremely difficult. Furthermore unless the opponent is already known to use Pendulum most people don't expect to see it in a duel and thus are caught off-guard, which is exactly what happens with Leo.
The example is badly written. It's an example of Internal Deconstruction - aka how this trope is used within the YGO franchise. The entry doesn't point this out, and it also does not describe how it's different in comparison to past series. It also doesn't mention that it overlaps with New Powers as the Plot Demands. Basically, it makes no sense without previous knowledge of the series.
- New Powers as the Plot Demands, which is always used in the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise, is deconstructed with Yuya's spontaneous creation of the Pendulum Monsters. Normally in the previous series, characters create new cards out of nowhere during climatic battles against major villains, and are supported by a pre-established supernatural entity. The cards that are created are following the pre-established rules of the game, and other characters react with admiration of the duelist's ability. ARC-V completely turns that on its head. Yuya is not in any danger during his duel with Strong Ishijima, it's literally the first episode so no pre-established supernatural factors are in play, and instead creating a card that abides with pre-established knowledge (say, bring out a new Synchro Monster in a setting where everyone uses them), it's a never seen before card type and summoning method, that being Pendulum. The reactions also reflect it - the audience, Yuya's opponent and the duel commentator all wonder if the move is legal and check if there are any errors in the system.
- Another internal trope that Yuya's creation of Pendulum monsters deconstructs is Uniqueness Value. All main characters have one-of-a-kind cards, but that's usually not brought up In-Universe, unless someone points out that this card is a Signature Mon. With Yuya and his Pendulum cards, everyone gets on his case. A bunch of people try to join You Show Duel School (which Yuya is attending) to learn how to Pendulum Summon, others call him a coward and a cheater, some people straight up try to steal the cards (Sawatari for example), Sora is outright stalking Yuya and his close environment before inserting himself in their group because he finds Pendulum interesting, and Akaba Reiji is creating his own Pendulum cards while spying on Yuya. In addition, since Pendulum Summoning is so new and rare with unusual mechanics, nobody really knows how to counter them, and nobody expects to see them in a duel. This completely backfires on the main cast when Big Bad Akaba Leo reveals that he also created his own Pendulum cards by observing Yuya and the other users, and calls out the main cast for being surprised by it.
- The usual parent abandonment of the franchise is deconstructed by Yuya having massive issues that still haunt him to this day due to his disappeared dad.
The example doesn't mention that it's about Disappeared Dad. Second, it's not the first time the series does this (Zexal). Third, I went to check the trope description, and surprisingly it only devotes two lines in the possible psychological impact of the child. It mostly compares the trope to Missing Mom. I'm pretty sure it's misuse and should be cut though.
- The Hard Light technology of the holograms is viciously deconstructed. Arc-V makes it clear what technology of that level would more likely be used for — war. Repeatedly, characters do battle by using their holographic monsters to fight (not a proper duel, just a monster battle), characters are at risk of getting harmed by the holograms, at extreme times there's immense property damage, and the holograms are often used to get around easier by riding on monsters. Being a duelist in Arc-V means more than just being good at the Duel Monsters card game — it means being athletic enough to jump and run around fantastic Action Duel fields, and having the courage to do it knowing serious injury is a probably risk.
- Taken to its logical extreme with Zarc, who dueled with the intent of hurting his opponents in order to get a rise out of the crowds. Eventually, he fused himself with his dragon cards and became strong enough to destroy the world.
The Hard Light page only gives a definition for the trope and says it's mostly used in SciFi settings. It's also not used in previous entries, though I'm unsure if that disqualifies it from Internal Deconstruction. Cutting edge technology being used to advance Duel Monsters is an ever present trope in YGO, but I'm not sure what trope THAT falls under. Also, the page image for Hard Light shows it being used in a combat setting (as a prison), which the above entry points out.
Thoughts on this one?
- The Superpowered Evil Side trope is deconstructed. Those that fall into it lose all control over themselves, have no control over when it happens, and when it stops they're usually horrified by what they've done.
- Since the use of a Superpowered Evil Side is actually just possession by a God of Evil hell bent on destroying the multiverse, every character with a Superpowered Evil Side qualifies as an Apocalypse Maiden, unless they're a willing Antichrist.
I think it's fine, mostly? It's understandable without knowing the franchise, so that's good. The Superpowered Evil Side page says that it's mostly a convenient way to give the Hero a non-dangerous to them powerup that can't get them out of EVERY situation to maintain tension during battles.
However, I'm not sure if the situation described in the example is Superpowered Evil Side or Enemy Within. If it better fits the former, fine, but if it's the latter, then it's played straight and should be removed. I;m just a bit confused with overlapping tropes here.
- The Battle Royale arc deconstructs the Battle City arc of the second series anime. There, a bunch of duelists wandering town dueling each other at random as a secret force of antagonists invaded the city was presented in a highly formulaic series of normal duels focusing on the two main protagonists before the antagonists got involved in covert abductions. In this series, Battle Royale mode is added, letting duelists enter duels already on progress, and even team up on other duelists 2 or even 3-on-1. The result is total chaos as multiple duels with multiple duelists in them in numerous different configurations happen across multiple episodes, and the spectators and announcer struggle to keep up constantly switching focus on the action.
Instead of deconstructing a trope, this example is about a specific story arc from a past series, which would be Internal Deconstruction. I think it's fine though.
- Episode 50 deconstructs the general shounen trope of building a team of elite teenage heroes, as once the protagonists learn that the entire Battle Royale was designed to find Lancers, rather than be proud or excited to join most of them get mad at Reiji for putting lives on the line so carelessly and are far from thrilled at the prospect of becoming child soldiers.
The example doesn't name the specific trope it's deconstructing... Does anyone know it? I can't tell if it's actually a legit example or not if there's no link to a specific trope.
- The Kid Hero and Child Soldier tropes are deconstructed to hell and back. The Lancers are not at all thrilled at being used to fight a war, and Reira is flat out traumatized by what he has to go through. Meanwhile with other characters, Kurosaki has fallen victim to He Who Fights Monsters, becoming as violent and brutal as his enemies, and Sora performs a Heel–Face Turn because he was raised to be a soldier and has only now found true happiness by being allowed to act like a child and be friends with people.
Isn't Child Soldier THE deconstruction of Kid Hero though...? From what I can tell Child Soldier is played straight.
- All major tournaments from previous series were never Not Just Tournaments and had their dark moments, but the Junior Youth Championship, the major sub-tournament of the Maiami Championship (MCS), gets cancelled after achieving its purpose.
- The second major tournament is an annual event, but despite the previous years having no magic or plot relevance none of them were ever innocent. The entire thing weighs in heavily to the City's Bread and Circuses routine, being a major PR tool used by the corrupt city council to keep the masses happy.
This here is lacking so much context it's not even funny. Basically, in tournament arcs from the previous series, the tournament continues as normally as possible despite of the supernatural stuff going on, and gets properly completed with the victor earning a title. Here the tournament is cancelled without completion as soon as its actual purpose is achieved.
Unfortunately, the trope page doesn't go into much detail (it's like, two paragraphs long), but from the description this trope is played straight. At best this is an Internal Deconstruction of how this trope was used in past series.
As for the second entry, it's badly written, and I'm pretty sure it's not a Deconstruction. It's Bread and Circuses played straight, along with Deliberate Values Dissonance a small dash of Bait-and-Switch to trick longtime fans. Basically, what happens is that the losers are forced to work in an underground facility (yes, slavery), but that is common knowledge that's not even secret. The one's who don't know are the main characters (who are from way out of town), and a local who got sent to prison long before the tournament was established and thus didn't get the news. The "subverts our expectations" part is The Reveal that the consequences wre public knowledge (as usually the consequences of a Not Just a Tournament remain secret from the public).
First of all, there's a bit of Gushing here. Second, what exactly is it deconstructing here...?
- The idea of Mooks is deconstructed by Obelisk Force and Security. They are strong precisely because they attack in numbers and use the same decks over and over; they outnumber opponents and gang up on them, and their decks all synergize perfectly to create devastating combos. Even if they lose, they keep coming to Zerg Rush you until you either collapse from physical exhaustion or make a misplay and lose a duel. The heroes also only defeat them because they are all professional duelists, your standard civilian wouldn't stand a chance.
I think this one is fine. According to the trope description, Mooks are not supposed to be a big deal and their identical thing is played mostly as a joke, so making them extremely dangerous because of how mooks function probably qualifies. I'm a bit troubled by the mention of Zerg Rush though. Thoughts?
- The Duels Decide Everything trope, the very basis of the Yu-Gi-Oh franchise, isn't even safe from deconstruction in this series. Numerous characters, particularly Security, lose a duel, but continue on with what they were doing anyway. There's also many times they skip the dueling and just use brute force to apprehend the heroes.
- Furthermore the use of this trope can bite the initiator in the ass- as when Asuka dueled Yuri- despite proving she was physically capable of just knocking him out- in order to get him to pull a Heel–Face Turn but got carded instead.
This example starts with a bit of Gushing, from the way I read it, but that's easily removed. What troubles me is that I'm unsure about how it's written.
- Hard Light technology is unaffected by convetional weapons, so it's more convenient to carry a small pack of cards containing weapons of mass destruction than a gun. In this case, engaging in duels makes sense.
- Some people, like the Obelisk Force, engage in duels because they feel superior and want to humiliate the losers.
- In many cases (see, Security), dueling is used as a means to buy time as a distraction (for example, slow down the fugitive to set up a roadblock).
- To mirror that, somecase people skip the duel for a monster fight in order to move things along faster.
- The double bullet point in the folder entry is actually a case of deconstruction (as in, the initiator could have just knocked out the target but lose a duel they start).
- There's also how it changes the typical YGO formula of the I Know Youre Somewhere In There Fight to deal with possession to "take their deck and duel disk away, restrain them, and knock them out", but I'm not sure if that's Internal Deconstruction or a case of Averted Trope.
- Interestingly the Jerk with a Heart of Gold trope usually displayed in The Rival is deconstructed here, usually the cast can see through the rival's rough exterior and understand their good intentions. But here, Jack's attitude and words only make everyone see his actions as nothing but arrogance and full of spite instead of what he intended.
I think this is a legitimate example and deconstruction, but the entry fails to mention that the particular case overlaps with Stealth Mentor (which is a character who is actively trying to be antagonistic to impart a lesson, in which case it's played straight).
I may need to get more specific here, the character describes needs a fair bit of context.
- The Serious Business attitudes towards the card game. Normally, the negative effects this causes for the duelist are supernatural (Oricalcos, Shadow Realm, soul sealed in doll, sent to the stars, soul stolen, etc), and are not known to the public. In the Synchro Dimension, the punishment is man-made slavery, and the public is not only aware of it, but aren't even bothered by it.
Probably fine, though part of the example is covered by my Not Just a Tournament argument.
- The Synchro Dimension seems to be a deconstruction of the entire second season of 5D's. When Satellite and Neo Domino City were connected at the end of the first season, they merged cleanly. While here despite the Tops and Commons both living in the City, the classism is even worse. With the Tops looking down on the Commons and the Commons having a lot of aggression towards the Tops and seem to be one push away from a total rebellion.
Another case of deconstructing a past story arc. Is there a specific trope for this?
- The All-Loving Hero trope is even deconstructed. Yuya tries to be as peaceful as possible and he usually fails as a result. Most of the time, his attempts are ignored by his enemy, who instead use it to gain the advantage. When he simply can't take all the stress he's under, Yuya tends to snap violently, or becomes depressed because he's unable to deal with the cruelty of the world in a healthy manner.
This one is fine, I think.
- The Blithe Spirit trope is horribly deconstructed. Yuya attempts to change the City by showcasing his Entertainment Dueling and calling them out on their apathy but instead of the Commons seeing Yuya's points and changing, they mock and hate him for attacking their culture. A major part of Yuya's development in the Synchro Arc is his realization that blithe spirits doesn't work, they only anger those you are trying to change.
The trope page doesn't have the best description ever... but from what I can tell the deconstruction is fine.
- The Commons revolution deconstructs La Résistance. Yes, the Commons need help, and yes, the Tops aren't going to do a damn thing. But violence only breeds violence, innocent people are caught in the crossfire, and Shinji's allies develop Black-and-White Insanity very quickly.
What the example doesn't mention is that the revolution mentioned almost becomes a Full-Circle Revolution (basically, a character says that "if things continue the way they are (treating children of the other social class like shit), nothing will ever change"). In this case, isn't Full-Circle Revolution the deconstruction of La Résistance? Does it count if La Résistance becomes increasingly morally corrput over the course of the story? If it does, then the example is fine.
- Heel Realization is deconstructed by Edo, who has been raised by the Academia since childhood and as such he strongly believes in their ideals. When Yusho was able to reach him, he went through a massive freak out, unable to admit beliefs that he had for so long could be wrong. Ultimately reconstructed after Yuya beats him in their second Duel.
Unfortunately, the Heel Realization page is basically a list of what tropes it overlaps with or may result to, and not the emotional state of the character making the realization. Also, the example is incomplete - the above scenario plays more or less with most of the former members of the evil organization (starting off as being in strong denial convinced that they're in the right, before evidence start piling up and they start having doubts). Going purely by the trope description, I'm not sure if this is a deconstruction.
- The For Happiness trope is deconstructed by Zarc of all people. He truly wanted to make people happy but due to the people of the original dimension bloodthirsty attitude, he was twisted into a monster himself.
I think this is fine? The For Happiness page doesn't mention the possibility described in the example, as this trope assumes that good things make people happy (while here it's slaughter). I think the example is somewhat lacking though.
- The dueling, the foundations of the franchise itself, gets deconstructed. When Leo invented Real Solid Vision to allow monsters to physically exist, the ancient Duel Spirits started using that to manifest in the real world through them. Turns out they aren't happy at people using Duel Monsters as a game where they fight each other for the entertainment of humans, so they eventually grew angry and started attacking people.
This is an example of Internal Deconstruction, and does NOT overlap with Duels Decide Everything. However, there may be an actual trope here? The example is basically saying that the monsters are extremely unhappy with being treated as gladiators in a colloseum. Is there an actual trope here?
- Identity Amnesia is deconstructed by Leo. After the dimensions were split, he lost all memory of who he was. Due to lasting memories of the Original Dimension, he created a new life for himself. Usually for this trope the person that suffers from this trope focuses on their original memories and identity. Here we see that because Leo focused on his memories of the Original Dimension, he truly hurt Himika and Reiji.
From the Identity Amnesia page, the usual use of this trope is as a mini arc and is usually not a big deal. The situation described in the example (what happens to the people the person connected with in their amnesiac state) is not adressed in that page. So going by the description of Deconstruction, adressing an otherwise ignored aspect of a trope counts.
- Morality Chain is deconstructed in episode 129. While the Bracelet girls can appeal to the Dragon Boys' better nature, if the girls themselves are in danger then the boys will focus on the girls’ safety even above their wishes.
This one is fine. And it makes sense even without knowing the context.
- The Chessmaster is horribly deconstructed throughout the series. There are many characters that create long term plans, and each time internal biases, or just the simple fact that people are unpredictable, mess them up.
- A lot of Reiji's plans mess up because he can't plan for every possible option. His plan to get allies in the Synchro Dimension hit a huge snag when the Lancers were teleported to different locations without any way to communicate or a plan to get back together.
- Roger's own confidence in his abilities lead to him mistakingly believing that he could control anyone easily. This belief lead to Serena giving an Action Card for her pride which lead to her defeat and Sergey breaking free of his control and losing which destroyed his King's Gambit.
- Leo's own bias against Zarc and for Ray meant he separated Serena from meeting Yuri, this meant that Yuri was more susceptible to Zarc's influence which he only furthered when he allowed Yuri to listen to his destructive impulses. His use of Yuri as an enforcer only let the four Dragon Boys meet easier as they gained grudges against each other.
- Ray placed her reincarnations close to Zarc's to act as a seal but she didn't realize how well that would work. Due to how close they became, whenever Yuzu, Ruri or Rin were hurt that lead to Yuya, Yuto and Yugo to awaken, speeding up Zarc's revival.
- Zarc's confidence in his own power lead him to think he could overpower his reincarnations' personalities. In the end it was because of Yuya being able to fight back, that Reira and Ray were able to defeat him again.
I actually did make a rewrite of this example in TheChessmaster.Anime And Manga page. Here in the folder is the original version. In the Anime and Manga page is how I wrote it (pretty similar but more filled up). So yeah, I think it's fine, but I'm not sure if I should replace this version with my version.
- The Big Bad having Purposefully Overpowered cards is Deconstructed in Zarc's Supreme King Dragon deck. The villains are usually given powerful cards in order to challenge the protagonists more than the usual run-of-the-mill villain, but they're usually defeated either through the heroes' skills or by magically conjuring a new ace-in-the-hole. However, Zarc and his dragons are designed to completely run roughshod over everyone without giving them the chance to fight back, as well as heal what ever damage they do end up doing, and Yuya, the protagonist who would usually be able to stand up to him in the end, can't duel since Yuya is a part of Zarc. As a result, most of the duel against him is mainly Zarc just wiping out the remaining heroes one-by-one. In addition, instead of demonstrating that Zarc is a skilled or powerful opponent, Zarc's blatantly unfair cards, which are implied to have been conjured by Zarc himself, just demonstrate that he's a Sore Loser and Dirty Coward who's afraid of losing.
This is presented as an Internal Deconstruction, but it's missing something: sometime after this example was written, the trope Cowardice Callout was launched, which is used to lampshade the above. So I think Cowardice Callout should be added in the example.
- Episode 144 deconstructs Zexal's ending. Where the main cast temporarily died and were brought back to life with no real mental scaring. Episode 144's plot is the Xyz Dimension is still scarred by their experiences to the point of being unable to duel.
Yet another "deconstruction of a past story arc" description, but I think it's also Back from the Dead?
Basically, in Zexal everyone dies in a duel during an Apocalypse How and comes back fine, but in ARC-V everyone is extremely mentally scared by how they died.
Anyway, those are all the examples in the ARC-V page! Thoughts?
Edited by Lermis on Jun 18th 2023 at 5:20:28 PM
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I'm not too familiar with Yu-Gi-Oh!, but your points all look solid to me.
For the uncertain ones, I can comment on the "teenage hero squad" one: It seems to be alluding to Kid Hero and Child Soldier tropes brought up in another entry, though since there's no specific trope for "team of young/child superheroes" there's no one specific trope listed. Not sure what to do here either.
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Trope Finder it is.
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Did a first fix of the ARC-V page, though I haven't yet touched the stuff I'm unsure about.
An unexpected issue is vague trope descriptions. I mean, I go to the sumarry of the trope that's supposedly deconstructed and they're suprisingly sparse. Like, I checked Following in Relative's Footsteps just now and it's two tiny paragraphs, which boil down to "characters follows the same carreer path as the parent". And that's just one example.
Edited by Lermis on Jun 19th 2023 at 6:53:09 PM
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Since this thread is made, I'd like to put forward 3 useful sources for determining deconstructions / deconstructed tropes:
- Playing with a Trope: Defines Deconstructed Trope as, "The intentional use and exploration of the trope, played far straighter than usual in order to show the trope as poorly thought out, impractical, or unrealistic. A Deconstruction does not always have to be a less nice version of the straight trope. It just points out the trope's flaws or how it's even possible."
- Not a Deconstruction: A list of concepts (e.g., Darker and Edgier, Subverted Trope, etc.) that sound similar to, but not the same as, a deconstruction.
- Deconstruct a Trope: Contains guidelines for deconstructing a trope, plus one important rule, "The only way to deconstruct a trope is to identify the essential elements of that trope and then change the non-essential elements."
Edited by ElRise on Jun 21st 2023 at 12:49:45 AM
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Given that A Song of Ice and Fire has multiple decontruction pages, it stands to reason that at least some of them are shoehorns. From A Song of Ice and Fire we have multiple examples of 0% Approval Rating and Universally Beloved Leader, demonstrating the consequences of being a hated ruler or the thing one must do to become a popular ruler. The problem, in my eyes, is that those tropes refer to a ruler who is hated or loved to an improbable or even impossible degree.
- 0% Approval Rating: Maintaining power when everyone under you hates you isn't easy... and, can easily lock you into a cycle of doing things people will hate you for simply to maintain your grip on your slippery position of power.
- Cersei Lannister is very disliked by the "sparrows," who are religious smallfolk dissatisfied with the Lannister regime after the war. The new High Septon, nicknamed the High Sparrow, is able to manipulate Cersei into rearming the Faith in part by claiming it will make her more popular with them (and, by extension, with the smallfolk, which could give her ammunition against increasingly unhappy petty lords and heavily-taxed merchants). However, once she does so, they gain the power to arrest her for her crimes—and, greater instability hits everybody and their dogs.
- Despite her intent to make things better, Daenerys is so despised in Slaver's Bay that chaos reigns more than she does. Innocent people who support her are murdered at night by the Sons of the Harpy and there is an attempt made on her life, which she narrowly escapes. She can barely control her own court and is forced to marry a possible enemy to placate her opponents, which only boosts frustration among her strongest supporters. Nothing she tries to do gains traction because of the hatred, sexism and incessant factionalism. It has gotten to the point where Daddy's favourite strategy starts to look a very attractive alternative as a means to get the whole lot to sit down, shut up, pretend to get along and pull in one direction: "Burn them all!". After all, dragons don't plant trees.
- Tyrion's demonization by the commoners in King's Landing wouldn't have helped his case with his father after Blackwater, when Cersei was able to convince Tywin that most of the preparation and defensive work was her doing. Had the blame for most of the Lannisters' mistakes been applied to the correct people in the popular mind instead of reaching for the easy "Demon Monkey" scapegoat role they loaded him with, Tywin might have actually taken note and taken pains to include him in later reconstructive efforts. Well, maybe. At the very least, Cersei would not have come out of it quite so glowingly and a whole raft of problems might have been avoided. As it was, Tyrion's perceived failures at curbing the Crown's self-inflicted chaos during the siege using financially and verbally harsh means come back to bite him time and again, blown up out of all proportion and scuppering any attempt by all half-competent Lannisters to stabilize the boat without reaching for the even bigger crackdown-and-take-hostages option. Tywin, Kevan and Jaime have to resort to this when the wheels start to fall off, if in slightly different ways — Jaime and Tywin picking the rather direct versions; Kevan attempting the more diplomatically disguised route.
- Roose Bolton ponders all the pitfalls having such a negative public image can plague a whole House if even just one member pushes the envelope a little too far. If Ramsay continues being gratuitously Stupid Evil right in front of people's faces, the whole House, not to mention the population of the Dreadfort, could be exterminated by the combined effort of the unhappy Northern Houses in less time than it took them both to work their way into holding Winterfell's lands and titles in the first place. And, that whole speculation was made before the revelations of House Bolton being actively involved in the Red Wedding had even started to leak through various sources. There is a possible plus-side: if that one member of the House is loathed enough, the rest might get off by throwing him to the wolves and blaming most of the collective monstrosities on him, then citing whatever can be proved of as their own doing as, "We were just trying to protect our own blood — even if he was an unpredictable, Axe-Crazy idiot. Will his head and reparations do?" Maybe.
- The Freys were already this before the war, being mocked and looked down upon for being opportunistic weasels and glorified extortionists. So, if you're already despised, why not go for broke by going large and waving it about? What can you lose? Well... after their betrayal of a huge number of neighbours and allies during the Red Wedding, they are hated by nearly everyone in the Riverlands and the North. Quite a lot in those regions will gladly take the opportunity to kill every Frey they encounter if it presents itself, and other people will not think twice when one of the House dies. Heck, because many Northern and Riverlands Houses lost men and relatives to them, most break out into very thinly disguised schadenfreude upon hearing of the latest tragedy to befall the Freys — in front of them. All of this means that, just to govern what they hold, actual Freys have to go out to risk bodily harm while threatening it upon their vassals. This is a family which leans more towards the behind-the-desk Corrupt Bureaucrat end of the slime pool rather than the actively knee-capping enforcer one, remember: they're a bit out of their comfort zone as a group. Also, even though the Riverlords have officially submitted to the Iron Throne, Jaime knows he can't rely on the people in reality to stay quiet, let alone loyal, and has to take hostages (often ones the Freys were holding as collateral) to remind the squabbling Freys and Riverlanders alike who is in charge of them all.
- Because Joffrey was this trope on legs, it's practically impossible for the Lannisters (who aren't Cersei) and most at court to work out who actually killed him. Although the story of Tyrion-and-Sansa is publicly accepted, few buy Sansa's wholehearted involvement and it muddies the waters as a result. But, due to the sheer number of other candidate suspects, nobody can find alternative narratives that are closer to the truth. This cloud of uncertainty could play out in many different ways, depending on what happens in the next book. And, not necessarily in Cersei or Tommen's favour, at that.
- Universally Beloved Leader: Making sure everyone likes you is really hard, dirty work, and being liked isn't the same thing as being a good ruler.
- The Tyrells demonstrate that aiming for widespread, positive publicity on this scale is a constant battle of time, energy, resources and some exceedingly calculated and, occasionally, very dirty dealing behind the scenes; from cheating while dressed spectacularly at tourneys, to being able to manipulate food supplies for "fortuitous" timing, to murdering bumps in the road undetected, to calculating when to walk away from people who could be too damaging to associate with. And there's the risk of a misstep the whole time.
- Baelor the Blessed is fondly remembered by the faithful and has been put on an enormous pedestal for decades. At the same time, it's rather easy for readers (and Tyrion, as well as other characters in-universe) to come to the alternate conclusion that he might just have been taking the Targaryen family nuttiness to new, religious places when reading of his exploits. His uncle, Viserys, may have had a large part to do with the positive spin and damage limitation placed on Baelor's actions at the time, to boot, as one of the more successful Hands before taking the throne himself. And, he's considered pretty much an Evil Chancellor in folklore for his pains.
- By not working to maintain and consolidate what she had pragmatically and politically, Daenerys lost quite a bit of the adoration she started out with among her freed "children" whose lives have been turned upside down. Having said that, her positive legend is still alive in parts of Essos she hasn't yet been to. For example, in Volantis, a city filled with slaves, she's regarded as The Messiah with even cynics like Vogarro's Whore praying for her arrival. But, little is said about how the nobles there feel, although the next election is likely to be interestingly deadly. There is already factional troop build-up.
- Aegon V Targaryen has gone down in history as one of the honestly and straightforwardly good kings, particularly among the smallfolk. His reign is seen as the trend-bucking, shining highlight of about 200 years worth of dismal lowlights and strife, which even the nobility admit—despite his attempts to erode "rights" aka "unequal treatment". However, all this packaged goodness wouldn't have happened without Bloodraven cutting down errant family members left and right while gaining a much-deserved reputation as a Kinslayer, Spymaster and (perhaps less-deservedly) Evil Chancellor. Without him thinning the Blackfyre threat considerably beforehand and setting the stall up for more peaceful times in other ways using some very pragmatic means, Aegon's reign would have been plagued with many more problems than it was. He even shuffled off the scene quite openly by getting banished to the Wall for his supposed wrongdoings by Aegon. Which, could even have been by his own suggestion, in part to make sure that none of the taint of previous issues would bleed into Aegon's Small Council by his remaining an obvious mover and shaker. Not that it's ever exactly stopped him from keeping his eye on the realm via the tree-network and raven-post, of course. Or trying to interact with it in various ways. Yet again, we have the Good Cop/Bad Cop thing going on.
- Renly cultivates a good image and uses this to justify his attempt to usurp the Iron Throne. However, he is in reality a greedy and vain figure who is willing to murder his brother and starve hundreds of thousands of people to seize power. The Tyrells are more than happy to lend him their political, martial and financial backing, as well as their PR know-how, simply because he's good enough at the game of appearances (and venal enough) to work with. The fact he is trying to be king in spite of the rules of succession means that he also handicaps himself and divides the Stormlands people between him and his brother Stannis, and he loses a potential ally in Robb Stark because of this.
- Directly contrast with Stannis Baratheon, who is denied his rightful claim to the throne because of the disdain the nobility and commoners have for him. He's disliked and rejected because of his unforgiving and hard nature, the same nature that would make the survival of schemers—such as Petyr Baelish, the Lannisters, or the Tyrells—an impossibility in the long term if he were to rule. All of the above suggests that if everyone, particularly including the ambitious, amoral chessmasters within society, would love to have you as their ruler, maybe that's an important sign that you aren't actually suited to rule.
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I know next to nothing about A Song of Ice and Fire, but here are my two cents. I'm rather unfamiliar with some of these, so I'm kind of writing as I think...:
- 0% Approval Rating The trope page specifically states that such rulers often resort to horrible measures to keep the population under control. I think it would be a subversion of the new leader was even worse, or the current was manipulated by someone else somehow (say they're a scapegoat, a puppet leader, brainwashed, etc), or something like it. Without knowing ANYTHING about the characters here...
- Cersei Lannister could fit since she was a source of stability and things go to hell after she is removed from power.
- Deanerys seems to fit? Thing is, I don't know how much of the hatred against her is actually HER fault, and if she is a Well-Intentioned Extremist or a He Who Fights Monsters. Did the hatred come from day one or it was after all the hate that she started doing crazy stuff? If it's the former, it's deconstructed, if the latter it's played straight.
- Tyrion seems like a scapegoat situation. However, the example makes next to no sense the way it's written.
- Rosse Bolton: That's not a deconstruction, that's a discussed trope. Also the existence of uprisings is mentioned in the trope description.
- The Freys are playing this completely straight. If anything I'd say they're exploiting the trope.
- Joffrey: I don't see how that's a deconstruction.
- Universally Beloved Leader:
- The Tyrells seem to be a proper deconstruction.
- Baelor the Blessed is not this trope. He is an In-Universe case of Base-Breaking Character and/or Alternative Character Interpretation. Also, from what I understand he's long dead? If he was this trope IN HIS TIME, it's not mentioned here.
- Now that Daenerys is brought up again, I believe she's disqualified from both this and the above trope. It's simply impossible to be both a Universally Beloved Leader and have 0% Approval Rating. She is another In Universe Case of Base-Breaking Character I think (though do all the groups who hate/love her have access to the same information about her? This may influence their opinion.) But yeah, she doesn't qualify for either of these tropes. Your Terrorists Are Our Freedom Fighters? People's Republic of Tyranny? Full-Circle Revolution? Hero with Bad Publicity? Just throwing things on the wall here.
- The Aegon V example seems unsure if it's even an example, going by the last line. But considering the rest, I think it's a deconstruction - no better way for everyone to agree with you by getting rid of those who don't.
- Renly is a Villain with Good Publicity. I think it fits as a deconstruction.
- Stannis: Why is he even mentioned here? He sounds like 0% Approval Rating. Remove.
I hope this helped!
SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.
Okay, a few more
- All Animals Are Dogs: At first, Dany's dragons do behave in a puppy-like manner while they are still small enough to ride on her shoulder and generally do exactly as she asks. As they grow, though, they become far more aggressive and dangerous to be around. As of A Dance With Dragons, they have become so out of control that Dany is forced to chain them up (which doesn't help matters) after Drogon eats a human child. Drogon even attacks Dany and she is forced to use a whip ('A dragon is no slave!') to make him obey her. Dany is, of course, the "Mother of Dragons" and she must make her child obey or risk more innocent people getting burned, and striking a dragon with your bare hand isn't going to do much good, but it's still a bit ironic.
Yeah that sounds more like a subversion. A deconstruction would be having them dangerous and destructive because of their dog like qualities.
- Aristocrats Are Evil: Stannis Baratheon's blunt manners and tendency to speak nothing but the truth make him seem like a Jerkass but they also make him more relatable to the common folk. His talk about how people owe him their allegiance makes him seem like a glory seeker but his little moments behind closed doors show his empathy for the less fortunate which he can't show openly for fear of being seen as weak.
An Aristocrat who seems but isn't evil, doesn't seem to count
- Armies Are Evil: The "good" armies like the Starks and Baratheons aren't immune to doing things like rape and plunder. Daenerys buys the Unsullied especially to prevent this trope but Jorah still points out that they will still kill and ravage, earning the hatred of the Seven Kingdoms people.
Sounds played straight
- Big Fancy Castle:
- Theon Greyjoy's occupation of Winterfell turns into a nightmare. He has too few men to properly garrison the place, it is too far from reinforcements and most of the people around there hate the occupiers, but he refuses to abandon it. It demoralizes the enemy, but his refusal to sack it and leave leads him to ruin.
Hard to occupy seems like a plus, not a deconstruction
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Agree with all of the above points. Though the difficulty of maintaining a Big Fancy Castle is worth having a second look, since the trope page from what I've seen (as well as various media) don't really adress the subject of "but how do these things stay in one piece".
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I was trying to figure out the weird entries in ARC-V and checked these pages.
The Mon separates itself into four types, and type four goes as follows:
ARC-V is very much Type 4, but the fact this is listed as a type in the main page has me raising an eyebrow.
Then there is "Well Done, Son" Guy and Be Yourself: It's about that entry that I wasn't sure what it was deconstructing? I think it falls here but basically Yuya keeps failing to entertain the audience because as many people tell him, he's trying too hard to emulate his father instead of trying to figure his own style. But I'm still extremely confused about that "what is this even deconstructing" entry.
I also found some deconstruction entries that were not in the dedicated page:
- Deconstructed Character Archetype: Of Yugi, and the gaming Anime heroes in general. He values Duel Monsters as a fun game that makes people happy, and can barely cope with the revelation that it's also a tool for war. He's a Warrior Therapist, except when his opponent has different values and goals than he does, thus the number of times he's been an effective Warrior Therapist can be counted on one hand. His unique Pendulum cards get him accused of cheating, targeted by Reiji, and become an emotional crutch for a while. His happy demeanor is a mask to cover up how depressed he is after his dad vanished. His deep friendship / Ship Tease with Yuzu cost him to become very distressed to the point of losing a duel due to his anger against Reiji and let him to be manipulated by him in order to save her. See All-Loving Hero.
All-Loving Hero is decribed in detail in the Deconstruction page.
Should Deconstructed Character Archetype be in the Deconstructed Trope page?
SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.
Harrenhal is a legitimate example but but not Winterfell.
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You'll have to trust your own judgement on that, I know NOTHING about the context.
I recently read the page on Tales of Arise and then I came to it's Deconstruction entry. Upon reading it I think it might be in need of some serious cleanup as some entries seem to be clear cases of trying to shoehorn stuff in, with a lot of roundabout logic and explanations to justify them when they either end up not being deconstructions at all or or otherwise. The Fascist, but Inefficient entry for instance felt like an excessively explained way to say that it is basically being played straight. After having asked about it in the local forum and then Ask The Tropers I got directed here to take up the question.
Are there any problems with these or am I just seeing stuff that ain't there?
Speaking personally (as in with no shortage of bias) after having played the game, a lot of it felt like the game at most flirted with these ideas but never really committed. In some ways, these entries just feel like it was forced in out of fans obligations as that is what most expect the Tales Series to do. It also seems to be a clear case of Wall of Text as well.
- Deconstructor Fleet: As per Tales tradition, this game takes a look at several tropes from a typical fantasy setting and examines them closely. In the case of Arise, it looks at tropes surrounding The Empire. While many other games simply use that trope as a motivating force for the heroes to fight against, Arise digs into the nitty-gritty of running a totalitarian state in all its ugliness.
- Being Fascist, but Inefficient isn't just a bad way to run a civilization—it's downright stupid. Early in the game Zephyr points out that, with the technology available to them, the way Renans run things makes no sense. Simply keeping their civilization going wouldn't work under such a system, and this means there must be more to the Crown Contest. Dahnans being slowly worked to death for the sake of harvesting more astral energy for said contest means that they aren't used for other, equally productive jobs such as agriculture and metallurgy. In Calaglia in particular, everything the slaves mine is simply set aside and burned rather than used to power anything. Elde Menancia even demonstrates that one can harvest a considerable amount of astral energy without enslavement, calling into question why anyone would ever decide to construct a culture built on such radically bad work practices. Instead of the Renans just being evil, their entire civilization was created by the Helganquil, the true natives of Rena, to harvest as much astral energy as they could to fulfill the desires of the Great Spirit of Rena (and the creation of a means to transfer all of said energy to Rena). The Renan Empire is inefficient because what it was made to accomplish has nothing to do with making an efficient society.
- Might Makes Right as a dogma is all well and good for the purposes of exploitation. But what is it actually like to run a society that way? The Crown Contest is meant to reward only the most capable of Lords with the right to the throne. But all it really does is stir up infighting and treachery amongst the different factions. Moreover, friction between the Lords prevents them from cooperating in the face of mutual threats, such as Alphen and his allies, instead seeing one fallen Lord as one less competitor. Additionally, the Renan ideology doesn't necessarily include obligation to one's subjects, which is why Almeidrea and Vholran are willing to abandon or mistreat their Renan subjects in order to win. Within Lenegis itself, weaker Astral Arte users are second-class citizens (albeit still better off than Dahnan slaves) and everyone is scared of questioning any bad decision making by the government because doing so means criticizing a higher authority.
- Adding onto that, Might Makes Right as a concept isn't a voluntary philosophy in Renan society; it is the way of life within the confines of a meritocracy. The Crown Contest is something mandatory, where the strongest Renans, as chosen by the preliminary proceedings, have to get involved. With how the Crown Contest is built up within the society, most people are absolutely okay with the downright barbaric process involved in making it to one of the coveted Lord positions, even when it means killing family and friends. But Dohalim shows what happens when Might Makes Right is foisted on someone who is strong but not mentally stable or in favor of the status quo - one of his friends screaming after Dohalim was forced to butcher another of his friends causes Dohalim to develop a psychotic trigger associated with people screaming. Dohalim may have had the power to get into the top five, but he didn't have the resolve, which becomes even more obvious when the psychotic trigger goes off while Kisara screams. Furthermore, because Renan society is dictated by the strongest and craftiest, there's no real vetting process for the type of person who gets one of the five Lord positions; Dohalim and Ganabeltnote were the most morally righteous winners of the preliminary judging in the latest contest, which says something about the other three and about how a society that idealizes and forces meritocracy and Might Makes Right on their populace can screw people up and create monsters concerned only with power.
- Arise also criticizes many of the common tropes when fighting and overthrowing dictatorships. Rebellions and resistance cells can be honorable like the Crimson Crows... or they could be infiltrated by the enemy to use for their own purposes, such as the Silver Swords being led by their lord Ganabelt in disguise (while a fake held up public appearances). Then there are rebellious groups who go too far in the name of freedom, employing various means without any regard for collateral damage whatsoever, causing as much-or-more destruction than the people they're trying to fight (as the Dark Wings did with Niez through reckless use of explosives) - in that regard, the party all agreed that Dedyme was little different from the worse lords they've fought, with his extreme methods and unbridled hatred for Renans making him/the people of Niez easy prey for Almeidrea's machinations.
- Then there's the matter of what comes after liberation: three centuries' worth of collective suffering and resentment cannot be ameliorated in one fell swoop, especially when being a slave has become so ingrained since birth that, when the perpetuating institutions collapse, the newly-liberated has little idea as to what to do next, and may struggle to build anew over the smoking ruins. The worst cases don't even know how to think for themselves anymore (such as in Ganath Haros), simply obeying anyone who tells them what to do without question, and in the absence of such - or even in spite of it - they'll revert back to their ingrained behaviors simply because it's all they know and/or they still fear the consequences of disobedience.
Zephyr: Being a slave isn't just a position. It's also a state of mind.
- Upon Alphen's first return to Mosgul, his conversation with Doc deconstructs the ideas of both engaging in rebel activity and trying to keep one's head down around the oppressors. Doc points out that the Renans attack Dahnan civilians to punish the Crimson Crows and believes that the rebels should wait for a better opportunity. In turn, Alphen points out that waiting too long for a better opportunity will just result in one losing the will to fight back against the oppressors as they normalize the abuse, and the Renans are likely going to find reasons to kill Dahnans anyways as long as the current system continues, so more will die in the process of waiting. Either way is a risk and will have consequences, yet only the individual can decide which is better (or worse) in the long run.
- Speaking of slavery being a state of mind, it also gets deconstructed further when it is revealed that the Renans are slaves to the Helganquil, who in turn are literally brainwashed to follow the will of the Great Astral Spirit, all as part of a Vicious Cycle.
- Then there's the matter of what comes after liberation: three centuries' worth of collective suffering and resentment cannot be ameliorated in one fell swoop, especially when being a slave has become so ingrained since birth that, when the perpetuating institutions collapse, the newly-liberated has little idea as to what to do next, and may struggle to build anew over the smoking ruins. The worst cases don't even know how to think for themselves anymore (such as in Ganath Haros), simply obeying anyone who tells them what to do without question, and in the absence of such - or even in spite of it - they'll revert back to their ingrained behaviors simply because it's all they know and/or they still fear the consequences of disobedience.
- The Token Heroic Orc and Benevolent Boss tropes are discussed. Yes, Dohalim really is a great man (only slightly less great than the image he presents) who is doing everything he can to make the lives of the people of Elde Menancia better. But he is still part of a culture that has been built on slavery and exploitation. Some of his nobles are exploiting Dahnans behind his back because the Crown Contest and Renan society encourages such behavior, and even putting that aside, like any other Lord he's going to eventually be replaced, with little assurance that his successor would be as benevolent. And while the Dahnans of his realm are paid fairly for their work and are given equal rights, they're still technically slaves, which means to outside observers such as the party, the society is easily mistaken for Happiness in Slavery. The game also points out how Dohalim's general motivations for running his city are born of guilt for personally killing a friend he was forced to fight to become a Lord, rather than any moral compulsions towards Dahnans specifically (he admits that while he does hold such morals, he did not have enough conviction/will to act on them alone). Essentially, Dohalim is a good person constrained by the values of his system, and can only act as a decent man in spite of it rather than because of it. As a result, his initial actions address the symptoms of the Crown Contest rather than the inherent corruption of the Crown Contest itself, which is why he eventually seeks to oppose the contest entirely.
- The Elde Menancia arc rips into the Hero Worship trope with a vengeance. Dohalim did kickstart the concept of coexistence and unification between Dahnans and Renans within his realm, but he is still his own person, not an immutable monument to liberation; he is great, but he can never be perfect. Though his way of thinking ultimately wins out when Kelzalik challenges the concept via staging a terrorist siege of Autelina Palace, there are still several issues left in the wake of the celebrations that reflect what happens to a society so enamored with a single person to the point they warp him into an ideal. Even with Dohalim abdicating his right as a Renan Lord, most of the Dahnans who worked under him honestly do not know what they want to do beyond making a wage with the jobs they had under Dohalim - even Dahnan statesmen are at a loss as to what they're supposed to do while Dohalim is gone, such that many people within Viscint can only really think to carry on as they were. There is a mindfulness directed towards continuing coexistence between Dahnans and Renans, given how that concept was challenged and surmounted with Kelzalik's downfall, but without their figurehead to constantly inspire them, social progress practically slows to a crawl for a while. Kelzalik's siege also only went as far as it did - as did his horrific usage of the Fruit of Helgan to make a literal lake of hollowed - because everyone was too busy thinking their hero, Dohalim, already solved every possible problem in Elde Menancia, with Kisara also serving as a talking point to the concept with her (by Law's perception) 'smug' pride in blindly serving her Lord. Furthermore, Dohalim's psychotic breakdown in front of Kisara causes her to seriously question not only her devotion to Dohalim but the potential fragility of the concept of coexistence, something many other Dahnans and Renans - even after Kelzalik's failed revolt - echo as they try to figure out how to live and think for themselves (which also ties back into the "state of mind" effect that slavery can leave on people, whatever its form may be).
- Outside of specific examples relating to The Empire archetype, the story also takes a more serious perspective on traditional JRPG tropes.
- Feel No Pain is deconstructed left, right, and center. Yes, Alphen's inability to feel pain allows him to wield the Blazing Sword. Yes, it also keeps him in the fight a lot longer than usual. And yes, it can be used in a variety of circumstances to push the advantage in the fight against the Renans. It's also not a Disability Superpower, since the realistic consequences of being unable to feel pain are explored. Alphen can't feel things like his skin being pierced, sure, but he also can't detect changes in temperature or even realize he's been hurt in the first place, and Shionne brings up how this means that Alphen could realistically bleed to death without ever realizing he's been wounded. The only reason Alphen can even wield the Blazing Sword is because Shionne immediately heals him after using it; without her, he'd die in minutes. In the third realm, Alphen takes a serious hit to his right shoulder and only gradually becomes aware that it was a much worse injury than it seemed at the time when the next night, he still has trouble moving his arm and Shionne has to give him another round of healing. It's entirely possible his shoulder was dislocated or broken, and he couldn't even tell.
- The Cast from Hit Points aspect of the Blazing Sword is played for more realistic consequences than usual for this trope. In most JRPGs, the Dangerous Forbidden Technique doesn't have any visual indication as to what damage it does to the individual, with the narrative often stating that it's taking "years off the user's lifespan" as a way to build consequences for using said technique. In Arise, Alphen risks his life every time he uses the Blazing Sword in a way that's impossible to ignore. Whenever he uses it in cutscenes or in gameplay, one can see Alphen's arms up to his elbows are scorched bare, with his burnt flesh coming off in patches. It's made clear that even though he can't feel pain, he still runs the risk of getting an infection and dying from his injuries as mentioned above, and the story brings up the unpleasant suggestion that using the Blazing Sword too much could legitimately burn him to death. Even worse, Alphen's overreliance on the Blazing Sword makes him vulnerable when he begins to regain his ability to feel pain.
Edited by matteste on Sep 17th 2023 at 2:01:51 PM
A Trope Talk discussion
has prompted this cleanup thread of Deconstruction and its subtropes. They've been prone to gushing, Fan Myopia, and shoehorning of works that are Not a Deconstruction.