Opening.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Industrious Incisors
Well, I'm pretty sure the "realistic aesops played fantastically" belong under Space Whale Aesop, so any new dedinition should be able to not worry about factoring them in.
SoundCloud
reconsidering
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
technically i think they dont- Space Whale Aesop is "normal moral, fantastic consequences" (ex. Don't do drugs because they might cause you to turn into a vessel for satan) while these seem to be "realistic moral, realistic consequences, but fantastic elements" (ex. don't snort unicorn tears because you might get addicted)
It might not be tropeworthy at all, i don't know. it isn't either of these two tropes, tho
That sounds like the inverse then - "Don't do fantastic thing or thing with fantastic elements because ordinary consequences occur" (proposed Fantastic Aesop) and "Don't do ordinary thing because fantastic consequences occur" (Space Whale Aesop).
Professional Wick Checker
We could merge it with Space Whale Aesop because it just feels like an inversion, then we add a separate section for it.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Eh...there are times when a Played With example carries enough alternate meaning to qualify as a different trope. I think this might be one of those times.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
reconsidering
Either way- that is just a few examples, which don't fall into any current trope. If someone thinks they're tropeworthy they can be make a trope for them, I guess. The main concern I have is the competing definitions of Fantastic Aesop
Changing the description to match everything else seems like the better option to me. I think "work has a moral lesson that isn't applicable to real life" is a tropeworthy concept distinct from Space Whale Aesop. The problem with the current definition is that it assumes Fantastic Aesops are always a metaphor for some real life lesson when this isn't necessarily the case. The failed metaphor concept could be a separate trope, but preferably with some actual evidence that there was an intended metaphor such as Word of God or parallels that are too obvious to be coincidental.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
It was pointed out in a previous thread that this trope isn't actually related to An Aesop due to lacking elements of that trope (I don't remember the specifics; sorry), and that Fantastic Moral exists as a redirect with a more accurate name.
I haven't read the whole thread yet; I'll get to that in a bit. I just wanted to point out something that's been bugging me since the previous thread closed.
Edit: Previous thread
. I'll go back to looking through previous posts in this thread.
Edit: I looked through this thread a bit more, and one problematic part is the fact that these aren't aren't applicable in real life, which An Aesop examples have to be (Space Whale Aesop is a proper Aesop subtrope because it involves morals that are applicable in real life, but are shown in an unrealistic way). Hence why I proposed moving this to Fantastic Moral in the previous thread.
Yet another edit: I should probably clarify that this post isn't meant to be a vote in favor of anything. I was just commenting on something discussed in the previous thread for now, because I haven't been awake for very long and will need to think about this a bit more later.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 20th 2021 at 3:40:37 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
After thinking about it more I wouldn't mind a merge into Space Whale Aesop, but it'd be conditional on if the definition is broadened. See, I don't want to just mark these as "inversions" of the other trope, but if the entire merged trope was about "Morals that don't apply to reality" then they'd both just count as variants of that broader idea.
Or we can just broaden Fantastic Aesop specifically.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'd prefer to use the Fantastic Moral name if we merged them together, per what was said about An Aesop's definition in the previous thread. It wouldn't be unlike how we voted to merge Artistic License - Astronomy and Space Does Not Work That Way into Artistic License – Space.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I'm not sure where it was actually said that An Aesop needs to be realistic, but hey.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Given that nearly half the examples are "Lesson with no clear relevance", I think the best course of action is to rewrite the trope description to clearly include those examples. In fact, it might be best to spin off "analogy fails/breaks down" into its own trope, as "Fantastic Aesop" doesn't really indicate the latter description.
I oppose merging it with Space Whale Aesop, they're two distinct concepts.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
The point that was made in the previous thread was that An Aesop has to teach a lesson that can apply to real life. The way it's taught doesn't have to be realistic.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 20th 2021 at 8:15:46 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
That's what I meant by "Realistic". I'm just not sure where that criteria comes from.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I was going by what I remember from the previous thread. I'll probably have to actually look through the thread to refresh my memory, because I don't completely remember the discussion regarding An Aesop's definition.
Edit: I guess what was actually said is that the cleanup thread for An Aesop said that that trope and its subtropes are frequently shoehorned into situations that weren't meant to teach lessons, and that things that can't be done in real life (such as resurrecting the dead) would fall under that category. I think the distinction would be that Space Whale Aesop could involve a plot involving resurrection of the dead to teach viewers how to accept the deaths of people they knew, while Fantastic Aesop could involve straight-up saying not to resurrect the dead.
Edit: No, it turns out it's the other way around for Space Whale Aesop — the lesson being taught is realistic, but the outcome is not. So a Space Whale Aesop would be "learn to accept the loss of people you love, or you'll be abducted by aliens".
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 20th 2021 at 8:41:41 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
This is how I would interpret the tropes:
Fantastic Aesop: Unrealistic action or behaviour leads to realistic or unrealistic consequences
Space Whale Aesop: Realistic action or behaviour leads to unrealistic consequences
Edited by Nen_desharu on Jul 20th 2021 at 10:56:38 AM
Kirby is awesome.
reconsidering
^ yea, that lines up with my interpretation pretty well
And the above posters make a good point- I'm not sure I've seen any sincere bestow of this which are trying to teach an actual lesson to the viewers. Almost all of them are Spoof Aesops or occasionally a lesson the characters learn that doesn't apply to the viewers. So I could support Fantastic Moral as the main title, if people prefer- it would also be worth mentioning that is almost always a joke aesop in the description
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I'll be honest, I still sort of want some evidence that that is the correct usage of "Aesop", because so far it's just been people claiming it is.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
reconsidering
It seems to me that the usage of "aesop" in the very specific definition some people prefer is not widespread outside of T Vtropes. Either way, Fantastic Moral covers the same basic concept while allowing it to include lessons the characters learn rather than lessons for the audience, which is probably best in cases like this one
At any rate- seems we have a couple opinions here
- redefine to "charcaters learn a moral lesson which is impossible to apply real life"
- keep the definition of "an allegory fails because the logic doesn't transfer", and change the picture, quote etc to match this
- cut this trope, or merge the examples (probably into Space Whale Aesop)
- rename Fantastic Moral, possibly
Does anyone have other options they'd like added?
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Those look good to me, we just want to remove words like "possibly" and "probably".
Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 15th 2021 at 4:46:19 AM
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Question: the definitions established in the first two options are entirely different concepts. If one of them wins, do we create a new page to fit the other definition, or can they be merged elsewhere? Or just delete them on sight?
Edited by Adept on Aug 15th 2021 at 10:00:15 PM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I can't think of any other options.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Made the crowner. It's Fantastic Aesop "Redux" because there's already a page action crowner for it. Which has since been bibble-bobbled and I'm too lazy to see what it was originally for.
Crown Description:
What would be the best way to fix the page?
This had a thread a few months ago which meandered a bit and then died. I'm hoping that this can be much easier to follow
I believe that Fantastic Aesop has the same problem as The Dragon did before it was redefined- the main page definition says one thing, while everything else says a different thing.
The definition says: "when a metaphor or allegory fails because the logic breaks down" So this is two elements- it must be attempting to apply a lesson to real life, and it must fail to do so, either because of a broken metaphor or because of arbitrary rules which prevent it
The laconic says "A lesson with no relevance in Real Life."
The page quote and the page image are both showing "moral lesson with no relevance in real life", neither of them suggests a metaphor at all. Also, every single quote on the quotes page also supports this version. The on-page examples are a mixed bag.
While doing the wick check, I discovered that the second most common misuse is "lesson which could apply to real life, but uses some fantastic elements to get there", for example, "dont mess with natural wildlife, such as bigfoot" or "don't do (fantastic) drugs". I'm not quite sure what these count as- they don't fit the current definition. I put them in their own folder
Wick check:
- (Bullying a Dragon) X-Men:
- It happens very frequently to mutants. X-Men was supposed to be about how racism is wrong. It always seems to come across as bullying a dragon since most of them can easily kill you.
- The Thirteenth Floor Type II. (Sufficiently developed) computer game characters are indistinguishable from humans (and vice versa), so cybersex and shoot-them-ups are morally wrong.
- Recap / Star Trek: The Next Generation S 1 E 9 "Hide and Q": The show plays Failed Metaphor straight in the episode. Commander Riker is granted god-like power by the god-like Q. But using these new powers to save colonists who are in danger? Resurrecting a girl who died? Can't have that, now.
- Danny Phantom S 2 E 16 Masters Of All Time: You can't use Time Travel to solve your problems — it always makes things worse.
- Lord Of The Rings Books The whole story features a weird, contradictory set of morals. War and industrialization are bad (which are natural opinions of someone who's experienced World War I,) and evil can't be fixed by force, but pacifism is bad, too, and so is attempting to compromise with the enemy or see things from his point of view. The only acceptable course of action is dependent on the existence of magical artifacts.
(falls under the variation where the fantastic solution works but the metaphor breaks down)- House Of The Scorpion Killing one's clones to prolong one's existence is immoral. Turning people into computerized zombies is immoral.
- Flipside villain Bloody Mary is cursed with Bloodlust by the sorcerer who created her, forcing her to sate her hunger with human flesh or suffer terrible agony. When she captures Maytag, she learns the important lesson that it's still possible to be friends with someone while you're eating her arm.
- The Reluctant King: Jorian's tales of King Filoman the Well-Meaning and his various foolish decisions are being pretty obviously used for delivering various messages through negative example, e.g. paying off criminals won't solve crime, although some are very inapplicaple for the real world, like "don't use golem generals".
- Aesop Amnesia The Fairly OddParents!: If you count episodes with a Fantastic Aesop, add "time travel is bad" ("Father Time", "Twistory") and "make sure magic gadgets only work for you" ("Deja Vu", "Presto Change-O").
- Western Animation Lampshaded and played for laughs at the end of the episode where Ron gives a speech to the viewer about how mutating your DNA is bad, and you should never do it. Bonus points for ignoring the concept of portion control.
- Awesome / The Rescuers "Remember, kids: never drive a boat through a swamp if your abusive guardian is behind you on crocodiles.")
- her (2013): One possible lesson of the movie is that romance between organic people and intelligent systems is perfectly acceptable, and potentially wonderful. Other interpretations are also possible...
- And a deliberately warped one in "Grande Size Me". Ron delivers the "I learned something today" speech to camera (and gets the wrong moral, telling us to stay out of mutagenic mad-science chemicals that will turn you into a monster instead of eating healthy food), while a growing crowd behind him wonders who on Earth he's addressing.
- Captain Underpants: "But what George and Harold forgot was the other moral, that is, never, ever, EVER hypnotize your principal. Because if you do, your life may go from bad to worse at the snap of a finger!"
- Delicious in Dungeon: Eating monsters is a much better idea than trying to survive on nutritionally limited rations from the surface.
- Samurai Gourmet: Because the show involves so much Japanese Politeness, this trope features prominently. If a character brings disharmony to the setting, you can be assured they will trigger the samurai fantasy. Of course, once that's over, Kasumi is left to work out exactly how it applies to the real world. Sometimes it doesn't
(pothole, but does seem to say "fantastic aesop = doesnt apply in real life"Avaril: Yes...
Kate: So, what did you learn?
Avaril: Cast Arcane Barrier before monologuing.
- The plot of Drag Me to Hell is kickstarted when Christine makes a tough call and chooses not to extend an evil gypsy's loan a third time. The Fantastic Aesop? Let the gypsy win. Or don't let her take bank loans.
- Urban Legend (see-also link with no context)
- Superman Stays Out of Gotham see-also link with no context
- /The Vision of Escaflowne Trying to change fate is possible, but also dangerous and can have dire consequences. (unclear, could be an allegory maybe)
- The Little Lock That Could Fantastic Racism: Fantastic Aesop because just look at the Horde.
- /Peter Benchley's Creature Space Whale Aesop: You shouldn't 'play God' or else you might make a super deadly Shark Man! A rare example that also overlaps with Fantastic Aesop.
doesnt explain what part is fantastic- Little Shop of Horrors: "Don't Feed the Plants" ZCE
- The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson "You know, Clash of the Titans comes out this weekend...but will you learn anything from it? Why don't you watch something you can learn something from...like...How to Train Your Dragon? ...Alright, I'm in it!"
bad pothole- /Boggy Creek 2: The Legend Continues: Bigfoot searchers should leave Bigfoot alone — he's a part of nature's unspoiled beauty. Even Crenshaw comes to this conclusion by the end!
- Author Tract / Anime & Manga Pom Poko spends a lot of time establishing the negative impact industrialization and city expansion have on local nature and its resident supernatural creatures.
- Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot A reason: Not Now, Kiddo. The Moral: Parents need to pay more attention to their kids. Especially when their kids are state-of-the-art robots!
- Tropes O to S Some will be surprised to learn that "I Dated a Robot" has an anti-piracy moral, not a parody of anti-piracy morals. This confusion can be attributed to the fantastic devices (copies of Lucy Liu) used to give the message, heavy handedness and the fact that show isn't one to play morals straight.
- Latawnya, the Naughty Horse, Learns to Say "No" to Drugs According to the ASPCA
marijuana is toxic to horses (fatalities are rare but possible). Fortunately any horses who read this book will know to avoid it.
(the lesson is realistic "dont do drugs", its just delivered via horses)- Anime / Weathering With You The movie's ending gives two. Saving the girl you have a crush on is the most important thing in life, no matter how many people it could endanger. And humanity hasn't been living in harmony with nature, so it doesn't matter if millions of innocent people lose their homes if not their lives and much of a city becomes uninhabitable.
(this isnt a moral lesson, ive seen the film its just meant to be an ambigious ending. removed)- Coming-Out Story: "New Moon Rising", Although there's a Fantastic Aesop twist in that many of the standard plot points are applied to Oz (as a werewolf) rather than Willow (as a "coming out" lesbian).
(this one correctly includes the metaphor part, but fails to include any reason why the metaphor doesnt work. Maybe we're missing "metaphorical aesop?")- Honest Trailers 2017 Episodes The narrator's Alternate Aesop Interpretation teaches, "Don't text and drive, because you might end up turning into a wizard."
(thats space whale aesop)- /My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic Fluttershy wants Applejack to cordon off a section of the orchard for the bats to stay in for the sake of the bats.note But then, a magic spell which can remove the bats' appetite for apples is suggested; Fluttershy has moral reservations about this "solution". Considering what happened when a similar spell backfired in a prior episode, this is understandable. However, this solution fails for completely different reasons (Fluttershy turns into a half-pony half-bat hybrid), and then Fluttershy's solution is attempted and somehow works.
i... have no idea what, if anything, this aesop is even supposed to be. this is a pothole in a two paragraph example. good lord this whole page- Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery: The moral of the umatsuki incident in chapters 36-37: don't eat animals that you treated like family, or else they'll turn into a youkai upon death and kill you via possession.
thats space whale aesop, fixed- Also Fluttershy's "long term solution" could work in Equestria where all animals are at least semi-sapient; in real life it would unfortunately be rather dangerous. For example, "When pests are destroying your orchard, hand over part of your land to them. They'll definitely understand and respect the boundary you set and not, for example, breed explosively, expand to ravage your orchard anyway, and then either starve to death or move on to destroy someone else's orchard." Fortunately, Equestrian bats can be reasoned with and so they won't do this.
so this is a lesson which wouldn't work in real life, it's neither impossible, nor a failed metaphor. i guess this would fall under "broken aesop, maybe?So, my preference and it seemed like a popular idea on the last thread, would be to change the definition to match everything else and then clean up. If the current description seems salvageable it could be brought to TLP.
Edited by Tremmor19 on Jul 20th 2021 at 9:24:47 AM