Needs Help (new crowner 2/13/19): Hot Gypsy Woman

I would imagine we could do both, as they aren't mutually exclusive.

If we're going to keep hooking crowners until we get the desired result the moderators might as well do it by fiat and spare everyone the time.

Providing only the name of a work/character or the name of a trope does absolutely nothing to actually explain the example. What stereotypical outfit is she wearing? What stereotypical actions does she take? Readers should able to tell, from the context of the example, how tropes like Jewish American Princess and Hot Gypsy Woman are different. Replacing one for the other should be obviously wrong, unless the tropes are very similar.

• Jewish American Princess: Ines, Pepe's sexy girlfriend. She's very jealous when Pepe falls for Gaby.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That of a Hot Gypsy Woman. Those of a Hot Gypsy Woman.

I am gleaning from this that to satisfy people who believe these are insufficient examples, one does in fact have to describe exactly what the character wears.

Only if the trope is about an outfit. Describing what The Heart wears is Word Cruft. Being "hot" is not a trope. Proper context would be like what is available for Femme Fatale, which sometimes describes clothing, but their actions are more important.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Feb 14th 2019 at 1:50:01 PM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Jamespolk, the problem is simply that you're describing nothing in the example. You could put literally any character into a trope like that and people wouldn't know whether or not it's true (if they don't know the work) because there's no explanation as to how the character fits.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Regarding the multiple crowners, it should be noted that we never actually had a crowner for "should we rename the trope", hence the apparent redundancy.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

The measure of whether or not the trope should be renamed was indicated by including "Hot Gypsy Woman" in the list of options. The lack of consensus as demonstrated by the 18-19 vote for that option was why the trope was not renamed.

I do think this trope needs a rename but I'm a bit worried about the 'limit the number of options and avoid the word gypsy' bit since none of the names that avoid the word 'gypsy' are any good. If we were to open a second rename crowner would we not include 'Gypsy Temptress Stereotype' and 'Gypsy Fetishisation' despite them being the two highest voted options by quite a bit?

Precisely. I'm all for limiting the number of options, but we should cut the ones that clearly had no fans last time, not just the ones that say "gypsy".

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

The idea apparently is to call as many crowners as we need until we get the desired result.

I feel like that's where this is heading too.

I mean, no. We just differ in our interpretation of what the significance of Hot Gypsy Woman's inclusion in the previous crowner meant.

We're not "performing crowners until we get the preferred result" we're just trying to get a definitive result. Otherwise, honestly this probably would've come up again in a year with someone saying "there wasn't a crowner to rename or not..." so I just want to get an answer and move on.

Like I said when I proposed this crowner, if "rename HGW" gets downvoted then that's the only crowner.

I get it, you don't see a problem. But you have no issue with the word and don't know what a ZCE is, and not everyone will see eye to eye to you. You can say that people are just going to keep doing crowners until they get their desired result (an unfounded speculation), but I can just as easily say you're trying to shut down discussion to get your desired result.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Just to clarify, what exactly is "limit number of choices" intended to exclude?

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

The word "gypsy" apparently... despite us having good reason to use the word... and no better alternative...

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To recap on the naming dispute:

• "Romani" excludes other nomadic populations that fall under the "gypsy" name (i.e. Irish travelers);
• splitting the trope between Romani, Irish, and misc nomadic cultures is counterproductive, since there aren't enough examples;
• "gypsy" is offensive, but also the only word that can accurately convey the trope's intended meaning.

For what it's worth, I'm in favor of rewriting the description to better explain the HGW stereotype (Lord Gro's contribution a couple of pages back should be invaluable), as well as the fact that "gypsy" is a slur that should be avoided.

I'd like to point out Mighty Whitey and Mellow Yellow as an example of what I mean. The trope's name is ambiguous enough that people might think it refers to any white/Asian duo, but the first sentence explains its purpose and the following paragraphs elaborate on the historical circumstances as well as its controversy and the inherent racism in such a relationship.

Edit: Inherent racism in an abusive white male - Asian female relationship, not in any healthy interracial relationship. (Just so nobody comes at me with a pitchfork)

Edited by RoundRobin on Feb 15th 2019 at 10:10:12 PM

- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!

We're probably best off cutting our losses and just adding a comment to the description that while the name may be a slur in some regions, we're using the term because the trope is specifically about the stereotype.

Makes it clear we aren't endorsing the term.

Obviously, the cleanup would proceed as well, seeing as that has over a 2:1 vote.

Edit: Typo.

Edited by bitemytail on Feb 16th 2019 at 12:22:32 PM

What about cleaning up the trope's definition then?

As is, it's "A gypsy/Romani character that is attractive". The second paragraph literally says "The Hot Gypsy Woman has fairly standardized features. She has olive skin, raven-black hair which she wears loose, a low-waisted long skirt with a slit up the side, a low-cut midriff-baring blouse, bare feet, and plenty of jewellery. She also tends to have a fiery personality and to be overt in her sexuality, making her an Ethical Slut."

It's been mentioned in this thread that just being "hot" isn't a trope. Most people in fiction are attractive. I've seen similar issues with other "Attractive People With [x] Element" pages, such as Significant Green-Eyed Redhead.

Should it be obligatory for the women to dress in loose skirts, wear no shoes, etc? Then the name should reflect that instead.

Looking at the examples on the page itself...

I counted 46 ZCE examples, 5 ambiguous examples, 24 correct examples, and 4 aversions on the page.

Edited by Pichu-kun on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:06:50 AM

Yeah, a description update is a good idea too. Hopefully, we can prevent more misuse.

Question: here in Britain, I have never heard anyone claim that gypsy is offensive. And this is Britain by the by, a country that will lock you up for using the wrong pronouns or for dirty jokes (not a lie). Is this an American thing? Because if my country does not find something offensive, that is a pretty good indicator it isn't.

Not an American thing either. America has no history with the Romani, so over here, Gypsy isn't a slur, and a lot of people probably wouldn't even know that the Gypsies are a real ethnic group.

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Its just all a little odd. People keep maintaining on here how horrible a word it is, and yet no citations provided, and neither of us on both sides of the ocean has ever heard of a real life example of it being considered offensive. Please tell me people are not assuming offence on other people's behalf again, I have my fill of that every Christmas.

Does Britain have much of a history with Romani? I've seen a documentary on Romani immigrants in Britain and it seems like they're one of the few parts of Europe that don't.

Here you go.

And although "gypsy" might not be offensive in the UK or the US, it is a slur in Eastern Europe, especially in countries where there's a sizable Romani population.

To elaborate on that a bit, in Eastern Europe there's "gypsy", the slur, and "tsinganoi", what the UK/US mean by 'gypsy'. If we're striving for accuracy, then HGW falls under the term "tsinganoi" rather than "gypsy". As far as I can tell, however, there isn't a direct translation of the term in english.

- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!

Huh. That might mean Tsinganoi is the only alternative word we could use... too bad I'm willing to bet most people in the US/UK have never heard it before and wouldn't know what it means.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness