Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I'm not sure it is. Aizen believed fear was necessary ofr his own evolution (it was, hence why he kept Gin so close-he knew Gin would try to kill him)

Hey I have an interesting question in terms of heinous actions, do we measure premeditated acts as being worse then acts committed in the spur of the moment? kinda like how first degree murder is considered worse then second degree murder, even though they are both serious crimes?

There was an episode of Star Trek the Next generation where a powerful alien killed 50 billion aliens (that happened off screen, but the implications of that act are discuses in the episode.) And no he doesn't count, there was a reason for him doing this. He was a powerful alien who was disguised as an human and married a human woman. They moved to a remote colony, that was attacked by evil aliens. The alien (his human name is Kevin Uxbridge) was a pacifist and tried to use his powers to non violently drive the aliens off, but failed, the colonists and his wife died. In a monetary fit of rage, he used his powers to kill every member of the alien species that attacked the colony. He instantly regretted his actions and lived in exile on the destroyed colony, with a recreation of his wife.

So what Kevin did is essentially second degree genocide (also Kevin is far more powerful then anyone listed as a Star Trek monster), how would that stack up with other crimes committed in the Star Trek universe?

If it's Offscreen Villainy, I don't really think there's much to worry about.

I think I may give Arianna Ortega a tentative yes, but her father is a big block to get from...Kukulcan established the Red Court and its horrible, horrible systems...he's responsible for a mass of atrocities in the war (including a poison gas attack that included civilian collateral damage), and he manipulates Arianna to get her killed, carrying out all those sacrifices himself, while also attempting to facilitate a slaughter of the Fellowship of St. Giles while he's at it.

Oh, can we get Thor from Vikingdom back up?

edited 20th Aug '16 11:07:10 PM by Lightysnake

Fair enough, though the episode does delve into the implications of Kevin's actions.

I was more using that example to discuss a greater point, if we weigh premeditated actions as being worse then actions that happen in the spur of the moment?

edited 20th Aug '16 11:12:04 PM by Overlord

Suppose it depends on the context. If something like what you mentioned was onscreen... I think the most notable factor we'd have to be measuring is resources.

Kukulcan sounds like way too much of a bastard for Arianna to stand out from, never mind Dresden Files' already jacked-up heinous standard... I think I'm going to take the safe side and just say nay.

Here's Thor, by the by; aside from the various comparisons to other versions of Thor, this is actually a perfectly fine writeup:

• Complete Monster: This movie's depiction of Thor is a far cry of the Marvel superhero or the actual myth. Furious that mankind has embraced Christianity and forsaken the old gods, he launches a genocidal campaign to merge both Midgard, Valhalla and Hel, destroying the mortal realm in the process and killing untold innocents. In his very first scene, him and his men attack a monastery holding one of the relics necessary to fulfill his plans and he has the guardian monk crucified just to spite his Christian beliefs. When one of his mortal generals realize that if he were to succeed, they too will be destroyed (as they initially followed him on the belief Thor would restore the old viking ways back as they used to be), Thor admits to their faces that he doesn't care what happens to them and they try to turn against him to no avail, only for Thor to brutally kill one of them. Simply devoid of any redeeming qualities, he might be one of the most negative versions of the character yet.

edited 20th Aug '16 11:48:04 PM by Scraggle

I don't want belabor my point, but maybe a more grounded example would get my point across better.

Lets say there is a movie set during the Vietnam war. There are two prominent characters who were drafted into the war, a trouble young man who is befriended by another soldier and a psychopath who sees the war as a chance to kill people without consequences.

The trouble man's friend dies in action and the man in a fit anger kills 15 people (either civilians or Vietnamese soldiers who surrendered, those kills are outside the bounds of war regardless).

Meanwhile the psychopath has stalked and killed 15 Vietnamese people in his spare time, both civilians and soldiers who had surrendered.

Would the psychopath who premeditated killed be worse then the troubled man who killed the same amount people in a fit of rage?

That'd make a potentially good drama.

But in all seriousness, here, the psychopath, mostly due to his motive. Now, if the troubled soldier kills thirty, forty, fifty people while the psychopath only stands at about fifteen whilst they remain at the same level of resources... that'd be a much bigger leap to get across. But resources and the heinous standard aside, I think we can chalk up premeditated vs. deliberate as a "variable depending on the situation" case, because that's a question with many potential answers, and hypotheticals don't really get us anywhere.

edited 20th Aug '16 11:53:54 PM by Scraggle

Unless there's an example with this hypothetical, it's irrelevant, and will be judged on a case by case basis anyways.

Well I've binged watched the first season of Ripper Street and felt like the writes could use an expansion/ rewrite since they seem too short to me

This is what they look like now:

Ripper Street, set mere months after the rampage of Jack the Ripper, shows that he wasn't the only monster in Whitechapel:

Sir Arthur Donaldson from the series premiere "I Need Light" had an ambition: to be a pioneer in the history of film...specifically snuff films. To this end, he abducts women and drugs them, before having himself filmed raping and strangling them before mutilating them so they will appear to be new victims of Jack.

Claxton, from the third episode "The King Came Calling," is a Glory Hound whose only issue with the Ripper is that he took fame that Claxton felt was deservedly his. To fix this, Claxton began to poison his victims in a manner to simulate an outbreak of cholera. Killing many people, Claxton bragged when caught that he'd more than tripled The Ripper's total

Sir Victor Silver, from the eighth episode "What Use Our Work?," is a noble who hid a remarkably evil mind behind a pleasant demeanor. He had a business model of luring women to his family's estate before drugging them and having them shipped to South America for the sex trade. Silver was adept at gaining their trust before shackling them to a bed for days before drugging them and locking them in small boxes to be sent overseas.

This is what I am suggesting:

Ripper Street: There are several especially heinous felons in this series that proved Jack the Ripper was not the only monster lurking in the streets of Whitechapel.

Sir Arthur Donaldson from the series premiere "I Need Light" first shows up mere months after The Ripper's rampage yet manages to be a deprived monster in his own right. He was a Serial Rapist who abducts women by drugging them. Then he would take them to a secret location where he himself would rape them before strangling them to death. Then he would mutilate them so they will appear to be new victims of Jack as a way to take away suspicion of him. His monstrous nature also extends to his lone servant where he would force the poor sot to film him commit his atrocities all so he could watch them in his spare time. In fact the abuse that Donaldson gave to his servant was so bad that once he was put down by Detective Reid, the servant killed himself. In the end while Donaldson was only the first felon Reid encountered since his search for The Ripper, it was this case that convinces Reid to let go of his pursuit, so he can find other criminals to lurking in the streets of Whitechapel.

Claxton, from season 1's episode "The King Came Calling," works at a Whitechapel bakery as a manager where he used his position to contaminate the bread with lethal poison then distribute them to the commonwealth. This was done in a manner that would looked like an outbreak of cholera and it nearly work with dozens men, women, and children dead in a matter of days and Detective Ried's wife, Emily, close to joining those dammed soul. When Reid finally captures Claxton and ask him why he did all this, Claxton's response was that The Ripper took attention he felt was deservedly his and by killing many people even bragging of tripling The Ripper's total he would finally regain all that fame.

Sir Victor Silver from season 1's finale "What Use Our Work?," may look like a gentle man but in truth he is anything but. Long ago he was a suspected to being Jack The Ripper, but the issue was dropped when he thought to have died in a boat accident. However, he was revealed to have survive that incident and continued his business in kidnapping women and having them shipped to South America as sex slave. He would do so by using his superficial charm to gain their trust before luring them to his family's estate. Then Silver would shackle them to a bed for days before drugging them and locking them in small boxes to be sent overseas. Overall, while only just one of many Ripper suspects he came closest to matching The Ripper's description that he might as well be the Serial Killer himself.

I shall put them in the drafts page.

I also plan to find potential candidate from this show in the near future, but before I do has anyone in this forum discussed Ripper Street season 2 onward?

edited 21st Aug '16 1:27:17 AM by G-Editor

• I like the expanded entries; I don't think any others have been discussed.
• Seconding what Scraggle said: "I think we can chalk up premeditated vs. deliberate as a 'variable depending on the situation' case".
• Question about Vikingdom: Going by the trope page, it seems Thor is only The Dragon to Frey. Is there a heinous standard issue, or is Frey more of an Orcus on His Throne? Fun fact: Frey and Freyja are played by real-life siblings

edited 21st Aug '16 2:36:49 AM by ACW

I also think your rewrites look great. I'll be honest, I was considering doing them myself for a while now, but to be truthful I like yours better.

I just have one minor nitpick, I think Claxton should be considered a Master Poisoner over a Plague Master, as his tampering was only meant to resemble Cholera.

I already changed that in my file for this week's batch.

Having watched Vikingdom myself, I wouldn't say that there is a heinousness issue. Thor is more active in his attempt of committing genocide, as well as more sadistic. With Frey, he tricks Eirick into acquiring the Horn of Helheim by saying that it would destroy Thor's physical body and send him back to Valhalla; besides that, Frey also had Eirick's brother work for him, and once he acquires the Horn (actually a fake), he poisons him. Ultimately, Frey also aided Thor in his conquest of merging the realms together.

Alright, Thor then (and now I'm half-tempted to see it, since A) it sounds awesomely bizarre, and B) to see if Frey ALSO counts, as apparently HE'S the real Big Bad).

The film's on You Tube. It's been a while that I've seen the film, but I don't really remember any mitigating factors on Frey's part. Unless you're willing to say that they want to commit genocide because they were infuriated that they were being forgotten in favor of Christianity.

edited 21st Aug '16 6:37:35 AM by AustinDR

@ Scraggle, fair enough, that is good answer to my question, thanks.

Thor.

Okay, I'm working on this week's batch now, but there will be 2 omissions:

• Yhwach: Lighty/Wyldchyld, any changes you wanna make before I tweak it? It's on the Drafts page.
• Jonathan Killian: I think I WILL propose Caesar Russell, so if he is approved, I'll write him up and then submit him and Killian together.

• Blackhat: Sadak starts the film by overloading the coolant pumps at the Chai Wan nuclear plant in Hong Kong, simply to test his code for a future attack. As Chen Dawai and Nicholas Hathaway attempt to track him down, he has hired mercenaries kill Chen with a car bomb while FBI agents Barrett and Jessup are gunned down in a separate confrontation. Sadak's plan is to flood several tin mines in Malaysia, destroying several villages in the process, in order to make a fortune trading tin futures. Sadak never shows any need for the money he will make from this attack, only seeking the notoriety he will gain from orchestrating such a massive payday. His allies are treated as mere assets, and he shows no sympathy when they die. Ultimately, Sadak's only care is for himself and his reputation, regardless of how much damage he causes or how many people he has to kill.
• Goemon: Lord Taiko Hideyoshi is the corrupt ruler of Japan, and a stark contrast to the historical figure he was based on. Once a starving, ambitious peasant, Hideyoshi forced his way up to a position of nobility. Unsatisfied, Hideyoshi arranged the assassination of Oda Nobunaga, and then backstabbed his fellow conspirator to seize power himself. After assuming the throne, Hideyoshi keeps after Nobunaga's niece Chacha, intending for her to—unwillingly—sire his children, and murders her caretaker and presents his decapitated head to his soldiers. As ruler, Hideyoshi is all too willing to utilize his armada to assault the neighboring countries and drive his country into a brutal war. After a failed attempt on his life, Hideyoshi subjects one of the attempted assassins, Saiko, to brutal torture, then orders his wife murdered and his infant son kidnapped. Hideyoshi executes Saiko in front of the entire nation by kicking him into a boiling pot of water, and gleefully tosses his baby in not a moment after he said he'd spare his life. Even at the end of his life, Hideyoshi is without remorse and calmly accepts his own death at the hands of the titular Goemon with full knowledge of the war it will spark. A power-drunken tyrant prone to scenes of pointless brutality, Hideyoshi was defined by his own endless lust for control and inability to care for anyone outside himself.
• The Outlaw Josey Wales: Captain Terrill is the bloodthirsty leader of the Redlegs, a group of pro-Union looters and pillagers who open the film torching the titular character's house to the ground and murdering his family, including his young son. Enlisted as a genuine federal authority by Senator Lane in order to dispose of any holdouts at the end of the Civil War, Terrill exercises his new power by having his Redlegs massacre a group of surrendering Confederates who had been promised amnesty and mortally wounding one of the escaping survivors himself. Terrill begins a ruthless manhunt for Josey Wales across the countryside after he escapes the carnage, with full intent to move onto Texas afterwards and continue killing rebels, coldly remarking that "Doin' right ain't got no end."
• Vikingdom: Thor is far worse than he is usually depicted. Furious that mankind has embraced Christianity and forsaken the old gods, he launches a genocidal campaign to merge Midgard, Valhalla and Hel, destroying the mortal realm in the process and killing untold innocents. In his very first scene, he and his men attack a monastery holding one of the relics necessary to fulfill his plans and he has the guardian monk crucified just to spite his Christian beliefs. When one of his mortal generals—who initially followed him on the belief Thor would restore the old viking ways back as they used to be—realize that if he were to succeed, they too will be destroyed, Thor admits to their faces that he doesn't care what happens to them and they try to turn against him, only for Thor to brutally kill one of them.
• When a Killer Calls: Richard Hewitt initially seems like a normal suburban father, but after raping his children's babysiter Trisha, he proceeded to slaughter his own family, a neighboring couple and their daughter, two police officers, and three bystanders—nearly cutting the breasts off of one of them while she was still alive—before capturing, torturing, and sexually abusing Trisha—who he had spent the night taunting with calls and emailed pictures relating to his crimes—and her boyfriend, Matt—whose face he mutilates with a pipe—before fatally impaling him. No motive is given for his actions beyond the implication that he was a closeted psychopath whose sexual assault of Trisha prompted him to finally snap and embark on a sadistic rampage that left himself and a dozen other people dead.
• After Midnight, by Richard Laymon: Steve, a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer, travels the US with his ally Milo, the two raping and killing as they go. Tiring of Milo always taking "first dibs" on the women, Steve sets him up to be killed by the novel's heroine Alice, and decides upon her as his next victim. Stalking Alice and murdering those in the vicinity, Steve eventually assaults and attempts to rape her, revealing he has another women held hostage. Steve reveals his intent to rape both of them and then force them to fight to the death for the "honor" of being his Sex Slave as he goes on a new rape and murder spree.
• The Ascendant Kingdoms Saga, by Gail Z. Martin: Thrane, aka Hemlock—"like the poison"—is a vicious vampire warlord whose body count exceeds the other villains. One of the oldest of his kind in the world, Thrane was a barbarian warrior in life and never outgrew that attitude in undeath; he believes that vampires, being stronger than humans, have the right to rule over them, and that Thrane himself should rule the vampires. In a setting where many vampires try to live in some degree of harmony with the living, Thrane openly flouts such ideas by keeping pens of human slaves he feeds on like livestock, and even "favored" mortal minions get treated like dirt at his whim. Vampires who disagree with him are treated no better; at one point Thrane casually decapitates a potentially ally for daring to ask what benefit he might get from their alliance. Adding to his crimes, many characters believe that Thrane was responsible for the Great Fire, a catastrophe near the beginning of the series that destroyed most magic and caused the near-total collapse of civilization on at least three continents, and in the aftermath he further provoked the chaos by backing various brutal warlords; all in the name of tearing down human rule to place vampires on top, and himself as ruler of vampires. In the end, the other vampire elders and human heroes unearth a forbidden weapon capable of slaying a vampire elder and all his brood for the sole purpose of putting Thrane down for good.
• Beware! by Richard Laymon:
  • Laveda is a tyrannical cult leader with mystic powers who seduces and brainwashes people into joining her cult. Laveda regularly performs sacrifices of followers and captives, drinking their blood for the power. Desiring to spread her influence, Laveda has influential public figures and innocent people in her way assassinated, eventually planning to kill the President and throw the US into chaos to allow her cult to spread through all aspects of society. When one of her followers is taken to a de-programming specialist, Laveda has the doctor murdered and sets on the trail of the heroes who have taken her former assassin captive. Planning to kill them all regardless of giving up said assassin, Laveda tortures the novel's heroine with a chain whip, relishing and even getting aroused by the pain she's causing.
  • Sam Hoffman, formerly Laveda's chief assassin, was a thug who raped his teacher and became a rapist and Serial Killer. Recruited by Laveda, Hoffman was turned invisible and began murdering high profile targets for her. Finally splitting from the group after killing and raping—in that order—one of Laveda's favorite women, Hoffman returned to his hometown, killed his parents and raped a previous object of his lust named Lacey. Hoffman follows her to a hotel where he kills multiple people before being taken hostage by the heroes and reveals he knows about Laveda. Biding his time while pretending to cooperate, Hoffman escapes and rapes Lacey again, also assaulting another woman in the group before being subdued and meeting his end at Laveda's hands—not because she cared about the woman she killed, but only because he betrayed her—as the house the two are in is incinerated.
• The Curse of Chalion: Dondo dy Jironal is the evil younger brother of Martou, is a spoiled, corrupt nobleman, who has no compunction using his position to take advantage of those beneath him or to avenge slights against him. Dondo was responsible for the hero Cazaril being sold into brutal slavery, an experience that left him broken and despondent, while also taking advantage of his position to sexually abuse women. Having at one point convinced Chalion's impotent ruler to allow Dondo to try to get a child from his wife, Dondo raped her and humiliated her for a full year before she threatened suicide over the affair. When he manages to convince the ruler to betroth Dondo to his sister, Dondo gleefully describes to her how he plans to rape and abuse her all he wants.
• Fenrir Greyback is a savage werewolf who enthusiastically supports Voldemort's regime for the chance to indulge his violent nature. While many werewolves sequester themselves from human society and try to take precautions to avoid hurting others on a full moon, Fenrir was the one who turned Remus Lupin into a werewolf, taking delight in turning others and ruining their lives; especially children, who Fenrir has a disturbing fondness for attacking. In addition, Fenrir is a cannibal in both human and wolf form and expresses a desire to eat Harry in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince after savagely mauling Bill Weasley and leaving him for dead. Fenrir even states he participates in the attack to get his claws on as many children as he can. In Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Fenrir serves Voldemort's regime by helping in rounding up the "unclean" wizards or those who will not submit and expresses a desire to eat Hermione after Bellatrix is finished torturing her. Unlike the gentle Remus Lupin, Fenrir requires no full moon to be a monster and relishes his monstrous nature.
• Ripper Street: There are several especially heinous felons in this series, proving Jack the Ripper was not the only monster lurking in the streets of Whitechapel.
  • Sir Arthur Donaldson, from the series premiere "I Need Light", first shows up mere months after Jack's rampage, yet manages to be a depraved monster in his own right. He was a Serial Rapist who abducted women by drugging them, then he would take them to a secret location where he would rape them before strangling them to death. Next, to remove suspicion from himself, he would mutilate them so they would appear to be new victims of Jack. His monstrous nature also extends to his lone servant, whom he would force to film him commit his atrocities all so he could watch them in his spare time. The abuse that Donaldson gave to his servant was so bad that the servant eventually killed himself. In the end, while Donaldson was only the first felon Detective Edmund Reid encountered since his search for The Ripper, it was this case that convinces Reid to let go of his pursuit, so he can find other criminals lurking in the streets of Whitechapel.
  • Claxton, from season 1's "The King Came Calling", is the manager of a Whitechapel bakery, where he uses his position to contaminate the bread with lethal poison before distributing them to the commonwealth. This was done in a manner that would looked like an outbreak of cholera, and results in dozens of deaths of men, women, and children in a matter of days, with Detective Reid's wife Emily nearly another victim. When Reid finally captures Claxton and ask him why he did all this, Claxton's response was that Jack took attention he felt was deservedly his and by killing many people, even bragging of tripling The Ripper's total, he would finally regain all that fame.
  • Sir Victor Silver, from season 1's finale "What Use Our Work?", may look like a gentle man but in truth he is anything but. Long ago, he was suspected of being Jack, but the issue was dropped when he thought to have died in a boat accident. However, he managed to survive, and continued his business in kidnapping women and having them shipped to South America as sex slaves, using his superficial charm to gain their trust before luring them to his family's estate, where he would shackle them to a bed for days before drugging them and locking them in small boxes to be sent overseas. Overall, while only just one of many Ripper suspects, he came closest to matching The Ripper's description that he might as well be the Serial Killer himself.
• The Secret World: The Bogeyman is one of the few monsters who has managed to retain his intelligence and lacks any sympathetic traits or backstory. As a human, Nathaniel Winter wanted to attain magical power and immortality by any means necessary, and was willing to use Atlantic Island Park as the perfect method of achieving it. Utilizing an ancient artifact, Winter allowed homicidal rampages, deadly accidents and disappearances to fuel the park until he harnessed the energy for himself, becoming the Bogeyman. A creature who feeds off fear, the Bogeyman preys on children, abducting and terrifying them to gain the energy before inevitably killing them in the process. In The Park we see his cruelty firsthand when he uses his dark powers to drive Lorraine, a mother looking for her lost child, insane for two hours straight, relishing her fear and despair, while twisting her care for her child into hate and rage. Upon the discovery of her son, Callum, the Bogeyman forces her to stab her son to death.

• The Master, whose real name is Octomus, is a demonic entity intent on destroying everything good. Prior to the start of the series he brainwashed Leanbow into becoming his loyal servant Koragg. Once he emerges, he possesses a follower who had turned good and was trying to prevent his rebirth and mutates his body into his own twisted image; he then possesses Leanbow's son Nick directly, transforming him into a much more sadistic and vicious version of Koragg who laid waste to parts of the forest and Rootcore before he was saved. After being exorcised from Nick, he attacks and destroys the Mystic Mother's palace in a matter of minutes and kills both Leanbow and Daggeron when they investigate the destruction before dropping their corpses down before the Rangers; finally he obliterates time itself, transporting the rangers to the future he plans to create where he's reduced the Earth to a barren, lifeless husk for no apparent reason other than because he can.

edited 22nd Aug '16 8:21:56 AM by ACW

Hey, so Jack Noir was decided on for an Homestuck's complete monster list a while back, and I wanted to bring a few things up with regards to his morality.

It's brought up that the influence by BEC does not give him Pet the Dog moments because those emotions are programmed into him from another place rather than one's he himself feels. But at the same time after Jade is killed he's enraged into a berserker fury and goes onto slaughter the Exiles, the Aradia army, the trolls session, etc. Those actions are still influenced by the artificial feelings of loss and anger that Bec imprinted on him rather than the petty acts of entertainment that defined Jack's other murders.

In addition, while his other more humanizing moments are suspect (hunting down one of the foes who could match him, and returning the man's sword so they could have a duel), he does have an Even Evil Has Standards moment later on when he witnesses the atrocities Lord English has unleashed. The sheer magnitude of destruction makes him pause in his combat and stare in horror at the damage LE has done to everything around them. That reaction doesn't really have anything to do with Bec's artificial feelings because Jade wasn't involved.

Also, Unlike the other CM's Jack hasn't been killed yet, and he's likely to reappear when the story comes back for a conclusion so I think there still might be ways the story could redeem him (bullshit ways, but honestly I wouldn't be that surprised).

Huh, I thought Homestuck had ended...besides, doesn't he cause a lot of destruction himself?

Never mind.

edited 21st Aug '16 3:08:34 PM by Karxrida

It will never end. It will keep dragging on and on and continue its disappointment.

Jokes aside, there's still an epilogue that we'll be waiting quite a bit for.

And as for Jack's heinous crimes, yes he does a lot on his own (perhaps not enough), but I feel that some of his later actions were when his mentality was impaired.

edited 21st Aug '16 3:20:16 PM by DrPsyche

Jack.