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Not Tropeworthy: Surprisingly Good Foreign Language

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    Original post 
OP has been written by ~nw09, who gave other people permission to launch this thread.

Surprisingly Good Foreign Language is currently defined as "the work got a foreign language right", which is considered noteworthy because "Horrible grammar and pronunciation of any foreign language is the expected norm in most works of fiction". This may be subjective since not everyone will be surprised by it, and the description even states that it's based on how the viewers react. A lot of examples are explained by an actor being fluent in the language, which hardly makes it surprising. It is also used for objective examples of a character knowing a language they logically would be unlikely to know, which is actually Inexplicable Language Fluency.

Along with "surprising" being presumptuous, portraying something accurately is not a trope in and of itself, and it's not that hard to get a translation. Suggesting a cut for all these reasons.

Surprisingly Good Foreign Language Wick Check

Wick check:

Surprisingly Good Foreign Language is currently defined as "the work got a foreign language right", which is considered noteworthy because "Horrible grammar and pronunciation of any foreign language is the expected norm in most works of fiction". This may be subjective since not everyone will be surprised by it, and the description even states that it's based on how the viewers react. It also seems to get confused with Inexplicable Language Fluency.

50/50

    Objective/in-universe examples 9/ 50 
  • hololive - Gawr Gura Ch.: Gura isn't fluent in Japanese and can't hold a conversation like Calli and Kiara do, but as someone with a very keen sense of rhythm, her singing pitch and pronunciation are shockingly on point, surprising even native speakers. For example, her cover of "Sorairo Days" with Matsuri was actually recorded back in October 2020 (with the music video being released in late March 2021), and her pronunciation, which was spotless, only kept improving since then. Her original song "REFLECT" has her singing entirely in Japanese (while speaking in English and Greek), something which completely took her senpai Marine by surprise. Surprising because she doesn't actually speak the language fluently
  • Wedding Peach: Dean is American with no Japanese heritage yet speaks the language perfectly, surprising the Love Angels.
  • Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic: Goria was surprised that he talked to her in orc language and knew about orc customs.
  • Gratuitous Japanese: After the family's last one million yen flies off with the wind, Homer yells out "Shimatta baka ni!"note  in frustration. Otherwise Bart and Homer speak accurate Japanese. They're American and no explanation is given for how they'd know Japanese
  • The Simpsons S 3 E 11 Burns Verkaufen Der Kraftwerk: Mr. Burns' German during the dinner with the German businessmen is correct, even if it has a few grammatical errors. He's American, no explanation is given
  • Youth With You Season 2: Jin Zihan, or Aria Jin, reveals herself to be a fluent English speaker during her phone call with her family. It turns out that although she was born in China, her family moved to Flushing when she was 14. Not inexplicable, but presented as surprising in-story
  • American Mcgees Grimm: In Episode 3 of Season 3, Grimm tackles the tale of Fa Mulan. During the whole episode, he speaks in perfect Mandarin Chinese. Character isn't Chinese
  • Peppa Pig: In "Pen Pal", Peppa gets a French pen pal who she also talks with on the phone and later meets. It transpires that Mommy Pig is fairly fluent in French. Daddy Pig claims to be, but is actually awful.
  • Olsen-banden: In the Swedish version, he is suddenly revealed to know enough Finnish to spontaneously say something to a guard in it. While the line itself is nonsensicalnote , his pronunciation is fairly good.

    Subjective/out-of-universe examples 41/ 50 
  • hololive English - Project: HOPE: IRyS is fully bilingual, as she can seamlessly transition from English to Japanese (and vice versa) with perfect pronunciation. She admitted in a Q&A that she can get by with conversational Japanese and read both kanji and hiragana fine, with the exception of the really difficult kanji. Aside from a slight American accent, she naturally speaks at the same quick pace as native JP speakers.
  • PAW Patrol: Pronounces French words and phrases with surprising accuracy.
  • Paradox Live: To emphasize the fact that all three go to an international college, their songs have a mix of Japanese, English and Korean.
  • Rush Hour Film: Knows Japanese, likely due to his ties with Kenji.
  • Sedem Chasa Razlika: He speaks Bulgarian fluently.
  • The King of Fighters XIV: His VA is Chinese born.
  • Titan Academy Teachers And Faculty Members: She's the only European/Russian character in the whole academy (other non-Singaporeans tend to hail from Asian countries), students or teachers alike because her actress is born Russian. As such, she can dabble in Surprisingly Good Russian.
  • The Karate Kid (2010): Having lived in China for a while, he boasts fluency in Mandarin, as seen when he attempts to convince Cheng to leave Dre alone, only to be aggressively told off.
  • The Simpsons S2 E11: "One Fish, Two Fish, Blowfish, Blue Fish": All the Japanese in this episode is legitimate. It probably helps that all the people speaking it are Japanese.
  • The Simpsons S 4 E 21 Marge In Chains: For Apu and Sanjay's brief lines of Hindi dialogue, the writers called the Embassy of India in Washington to get them to translate. The Embassy was not "interested or happy" but still did it.
  • Traffik: The series was filmed on location, using native actors, in the UK, Germany, and Pakistan, so it's no surprise that English, German, and Urdu speakers are natively conversant. In brief sequences, Helen Rosshalde (a UK woman married to a German husband) speaks German to her house staff and local police. The German police handlers will speak German among themselves, but break into accented English to speak with their state's witness, Ledesert (a French citizen). Karl Rosshalde, speaking in competent but accented English, complains that Helen is lazy about learning German, forcing him to improve his English. Outright says "it's no surprise"
  • Crazy Market: This game was made in France but 100% of the text are in English instead of using French, this bring their first international release. Lots of French people know English
  • Fuller House: Before moving in to the Fuller House, Ramona is heard having a whole conversation in Spanish over the phone with a friend, while complaining about Kimmy. In Season 2, she tries to teach Kimmy Spanish and gets away with saying "I hope you never learn Spanish so papa and me can talk about you" very fluently.
  • Ghosts of the Future: According to lore, while Sonic's accent in the Spanish language sounds horrible, Shadow's accent manages to be authentic.
  • Casey Mongillo: Much like their roommate, they speak fluent Japanese. Troping real people
  • Christopher Plummer: Though he didn't get to show it off a lot on-screen, he was actually quite fluent in French, having spent much of his childhood in Quebec. Troping real people
  • Daniel Padilla: Although most of his roles are Tagalog, Padilla is actually Waray on his mother's side and fluent in the language. Troping real people
  • Gordon Ramsay: It can be surprising to hear him speak fluent Frenchnote  with his maître d's and other native-French speakers because he rarely does so on camera. Troping real people
  • Jonathan Franzen: He has also published various short pieces, fiction and non-fiction, throughout his career, along with a translation of the German play Frühlings Erwachen, perhaps better known as Spring Awakening. Troping real people
  • TwoSet Violin: Technically not that surprising as they were both born in Taiwan and emigrated as young children, they are both fluent in Chinese and can adeptly read, comprehend and sometimes point out subbing faults in the Chinese media they critique. Troping real people
  • Jericho (MLP): The German—in-universe, it is called Teutsch—is all really well done, no errors. Surprisingly.
  • Gravity:
    • Unusually for Hollywood, all Russian writing in this movie (such as button labels) features authentic Russian that actually matches what is happening on screen. This is probably because the actual Soyuz is not classified and so they could print the buttons to match the real deal.
    • They also managed to make the little bits of Chinese accurate too. All the text printed on the Shenzhou control panel are accurate and the emergency voice played in the deorbiting Tiangong is perfect. Both of these read like Shown Their Work
  • X-Men: First Class: Erik Lehnsherr and the Nazis he encounters (and, a bit later, kills) in the bar speak surprisingly good German. The actor playing Erik (Michael Fassbender) was born in Germany and the actors playing the Nazis are most likely German.
  • The Truman Show: In the background of the scene where Truman's dad is being taken away, two arcs display the words "unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno", Latin for "One for All, All for One". Truman exists for the rest of the world's entertainment, and all of Seahaven exists for Truman. Perhaps better, Truman exists for the rest of the world's entertainment while that world cheers him on, resulting in some surprisingly accurate French and Japanese to represent the world at large.
  • The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes: Madame Petrova speaks perfect Russian. To be expected, because she was played by Tamara Toumanova, an immigrant from Russia. Event her slight accent (she was half-Georgian) was perfectly plausible for that time and her social standing in-character.
  • The Good, The Bad, The Weird: Korean, Japanese, and Mandarin is spoken throughout the movie.
  • The Fighting Seabees: the Seabees "We are" song is one of the best moments in the whole movie. The verse in surprisingly good Russian is an extra nice Bilingual Bonus.
  • The Red Vixen Adventures: Part of the background of the wazagans is that their world suffered a Prime Directive failure, so much of their own religion and culture was dumped in favor of a oddball combination of Christian and Muslim. As a result, the wazagans tend to use a lot of Arabic for flavor. Fortunately one of Day's cover artists is a native of Saudi Arabia, ensuring the Arabic translations are authentic.
  • Confessions Of An English Opium Eater: De Quincey's use of Ancient Greek, which he spoke fluently.
  • Grand Blue: Upon taking the train home for the summer holidays, Iori, Kouhei and Chisa encounter two foreigners who don't speak a lick of Japanese. Their dialogue consists entirely of German.
  • Moonlight Mile: The error screen of the Russian space simulator doesn't totally cornhole the Russian language like always in an animé (only one violation of the capitalization rules and being stylistically not quite OK).
  • Nichijou: Surprisingly Good Malay or Indonesian: Yuuko and Mai were greeting each other in Malay/Indonesian in Episode 1. Not only what they are saying is correct (including Yuuko correcting Mai that she should have replied "Selamat pagi" (Good morning) just like what she said earlier, not "Selamat malam"(Good night)) but their pronunciation was good as well.
    • "Selamat tinggal" also. Meaning "Farewell".
    • There is speculation about more surprisingly good Malay/Indonesian. It's the Kuma (bear) joke. When Mio's sister takes the money from Mio, she says "Aru toki wa kuma, soshite aru toki mo ku-ma", which means "Sometimes I'm a bear, sometimes I'm a be-ar". In Malay/Indonesian, kuma (bear) is translated "beruang". It could be separated into ber-uang (ku-ma), which means "has money". If it's intentional, the author speaks surprisingly good Malay/Indonesian, to the point that he can make Malay/Indonesian puns that possibly no Japanese person will understand.
    • There's also a few "Gamelan" posters here and there. A gamelan is a traditional Indonesian and Malaysian instrument
  • AKB48: Anna Iriyama's You Tube channel is in Spanish and Japanese, since she spent a few years in Mexico to star in a telenovela.
  • Music/AOA: Jimin spent a few years studying in China with her cousin so she knows conversational Chinese. Troping real people
  • Deathspell Omega: Their Latin contains at most a handful of grammatical errors, and there's reason to suspect that at least one may be intentional to create ambiguity between two possible readings (as explained under Gratuitous Latin above, "Dei nostri templum terrarum orbus est" may mean "The temple of the lands of our Lord is childless," or it may simply mean, "The temple of our Lord is Earth").
  • Music/IKON: Jay lived in the Philippines for several months, and speaks Tagalog pretty well.
    • He also speaks Japanese and Mandarin pretty well.
    • Ju-ne can also speak Japanese, due to living in Okinawa for a while. Troping real people
  • Hinatazaka46: The subunit name Lima Cantik is Indonesian for "Five Beauties", suggested by Sarina Ushio, who lived in Indonesia. But since they're still in the process of becoming "beauties", the Japanese rendering is りまちゃんちっく (lima chanchikku) instead of the more phonetically accurate りまちゃんてぃっく (lima chantikku), and it's in hiragana despite being a foreign phrase because they were Hiragana Keyakizaka.
  • Junho: He sang for two Chinese drama soundtracks, one of which he recorded with Vanness Wu, who was surprised at Junho's Chinese language skill.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 8th 2023 at 3:35:10 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#26: Aug 17th 2022 at 1:39:24 PM

I downvoted moving Surprisingly Good Foreign Language to YMMV and upvoted the Sugar option as I do not want a repeat of the Doing It for the Art/Development Heaven fiasco.

I was actually planning for YMMV and Sugar to be mutually exclusive this time.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 17th 2022 at 3:40:00 AM

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themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
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#27: Aug 17th 2022 at 2:07:23 PM

[up] Ah, got it. When I posted that comment both were being upvoted—it seems that's changing judging by the current result, so my comment is less relevant.

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WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
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#28: Aug 17th 2022 at 2:12:34 PM

I upvoted the split option but at the same time it's probably not a necessary thing to worry about since the split can just happen in TLP anyway, like, we don't need to agree on it here so whatever happens it's not a big deal.

The other thing I upvoted was Sugar Wiki.

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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#29: Aug 19th 2022 at 8:37:27 AM

Since it looks like we're moving it to Sugar Wiki in addition to merging, I was thinking we could keep Surprisingly Good English as a separate page partially due to how many examples it has and partially because it would make merging the two a lot easier, but reclassify it as a subpage of Surprisingly Good Foreign Language instead of it being considered an independent page. I was thinking Main.Surprisingly Good Foreign Language would be moved to SugarWiki.Surprisingly Good Foreign Language, and Main.Surprisingly Good English would be repurposed as a subpage of SugarWiki.Surprisingly Good Foreign Language at SugarWiki.Surprisingly Good Foreign Language English (custom titled to "Surprisingly Good Foreign Language - English").

Does anyone else think that would be a good idea, or would anyone else rather just move all of the examples over to a single page?

Edit from a while later: Another idea I thought of just now is soft-splitting the page between English and other languages. This would still make the move easier because it would eliminate the need to merge the two pages' folders.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 19th 2022 at 2:02:49 PM

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WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
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#30: Aug 19th 2022 at 10:56:15 AM

Ehhhh I don't necessarily mind keeping a split but only if there's enough good examples to move over. Y'know, sans ZCE and the like.

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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#32: Aug 19th 2022 at 11:58:24 AM

I think I'll start with a soft split between English and other languages, and then we can see what's left after cleaning on-page examples. If the English section ends up being much smaller after cleanup, I was thinking we could merge English examples with other examples and remove the soft split.

If anything, the soft split would be a stopgap so the merge could be done right away with the folders on Surprisingly Good English being kept as-is (instead of immediately being merged with the other folders), and when the examples are being sorted through, we could decide whether it is or isn't worth keeping the English folders separate.

I retract what I said about moving English examples to a subpage because now that I've thought about it a bit more, that wouldn't be much different from the current setup.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 19th 2022 at 2:02:06 PM

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GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#33: Aug 20th 2022 at 7:37:53 AM

Calling in favor of moving to Sugar Wiki.

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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#34: Aug 20th 2022 at 7:49:27 AM

I moved the page to SugarWiki.Surprisingly Good Foreign Language, and as I previously said, I merged Surprisingly Good Foreign Language with it and soft-split the page between English examples and non-English examples (at least until on-page examples are sorted through), and made SugarWiki.Surprisingly Good English a redirect.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 20th 2022 at 9:49:47 AM

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themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
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#35: Aug 22nd 2022 at 12:46:00 PM

Should we pin a to-do list to the OP? Just remove wicks that are examples and leave the rest?

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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#36: Aug 22nd 2022 at 2:03:47 PM

[up]I would have done it sooner, but I was worn out from moving the pages, examples, and indexing around and forgot to go back and do it. Thanks for the reminder.

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#37: Aug 22nd 2022 at 3:44:13 PM

[up] You're very welcome. Thanks for pinning the OP with the to-do list.

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JapanYoshi Since: Apr, 2013
#38: Oct 20th 2022 at 11:42:37 PM

Might be a necropost, but I think there should be a separate trope for when a character who’s a non-native speaker has better English (or the language of the work) than a native speaker, vs. when a creator speaks a language foreign to them better than expected. Perhaps “Better-Than-Native Speaker”?

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#39: Oct 21st 2022 at 2:06:38 AM

[up]There's no such thing as a necropost for a TRS thread — we want people to get around to participating in threads that people lost interest in at some point. The fact that most people focus on certain threads is just something that happens due to differing amounts of interest in certain threads.

As for your question, that might be something to ask Trope Finder, but if you get an answer and you have a specific example in mind, feel free to move examples at necessary.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
SamCurt Since: Jan, 2001
#40: Nov 20th 2022 at 11:24:16 PM

I also has a question to ask. What trope does it falls into if a native speaker, after knowing a Show Within a Show's creators are non-native speakers, unironically consider the language being surprisingly good? I don't think fully in-universe items can go into Sugar?

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Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#41: Jan 6th 2023 at 11:45:15 AM

Hidden Depths I guess, if it shows there more to the actor character than meets the eye. There may be another trope, too.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#42: Feb 23rd 2023 at 1:39:39 AM

Just to be clear, all wicks that are examples should either be on Sugar Wiki pages, Just For Fun pages, or YMMV? Examples on character pages or recap pages should be removed/moved to the example list on the Sugar wiki page?

And does the same apply for potholes in examples not on those pages? i.e. if someone potholed the trope on a Trivia page or main page or character page, etc, should those be removed?

Edited by amathieu13 on Feb 23rd 2023 at 4:43:02 AM

Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#43: Feb 23rd 2023 at 5:37:14 AM

[up] Sugar Wiki examples don't go on YMMV. Examples should be moved to the Sugar Wiki page (as an example in Surprisingly Good Foreign Language)

Also, yes on removing potholes. If you know a more suitable trope to replace it, use that.

Edited by Berrenta on Feb 23rd 2023 at 7:38:50 AM

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amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#44: Feb 23rd 2023 at 5:56:09 AM

Oh, so not even YMMV pages or WMG pages should have Sugar Wiki tropes on them? Ok! That makes things easier.

Move valid examples to the Sugar Wiki page, remove all potholes on non-Sugar Wiki pages, cut any thing else if a more suitable trope doesn't come to mind.

ETA: adding an edit reason for easy pasting: "Surprisingly Good Foreign Language is now a Sugar Wiki trope per TRS so potholes and examples need to be dewicked or moved over to the Sugar Wiki page."

Edited by amathieu13 on Feb 23rd 2023 at 9:08:05 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#45: Feb 23rd 2023 at 5:56:44 AM

[up][up]This, especially since we decided to make it a regular Sugar Wiki page instead of having YMMV be a factor as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 23rd 2023 at 7:56:53 AM

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Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#46: Apr 15th 2023 at 7:55:26 AM

It might be time to split off the Anime/Manga folders, as there's a large number.

Also, how are we dealing with ZCE's? There are enamples that not only lack context, but some played with examples are present.

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JapanYoshi Since: Apr, 2013
#47: May 25th 2023 at 2:27:16 AM

I think there should be a separate trope for when a character who is a non-native speaker has better grammar than a native speaker. I asked once before what trope the Trash Talking with Milan question type from HeadRush (You Don't Know Jack series) falls under, where Milan, a janitor from a non-specific European country, asks questions about English grammar and even corrects the host, an American native speaker. I saw that the Surprisingly Good English page had some examples of that, and I feel that it’s distinct enough to merit its own page.

Edited by JapanYoshi on May 25th 2023 at 6:27:45 PM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#48: May 25th 2023 at 2:55:41 AM

The thread already decided to merge the two and move them to Sugar Wiki, along with determining the English subtrope to be The Same, but More Specific to examples the main foreign language page.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 25th 2023 at 4:56:53 AM

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JapanYoshi Since: Apr, 2013
#49: Jun 1st 2023 at 6:25:59 AM

Yeah, I know, I’m proposing that the trope of when a non-native speaker with good main-language-in-question is juxtaposed with a native speaker with worse main-language-in-question should be splintered off into a legitimate trope that hasn’t had a Trope page yet. Perhaps called Better Than Native Speaker?

themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining

17th Aug '22 11:56:32 AM

Crown Description:

Consensus was to merge Surprisingly Good English into Surprisingly Good Foreign Language, and other proposals were made for what to do with the page due to concerns that it's subjective despite not being marked as such. What should be done with Surprisingly Good Foreign Langauge?

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