I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
In CGI movies or video games unrealistic movements or facial expressions may result in Narm. Dated special effects during dramatic scenes can cause Narm for younger audience members who were raised on nothing less convincing than the Phantom Menace. Totally Radical dialog in cartoons or commercials pandering to children can also be a rich source of Narm. Even a good performance in a bad movie can evoke Narm if the actor's performance isn't enough to save the scene.
That last sentence I feel just confuses the whole thing. It makes it sound like absolutely anything can count as Narm, no matter if it works in context or not.
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#752: Jun 6th 2021 at 6:40:25 PM
Bringing up the following examples from Skyfall:
- Narm:
- Silva's gasps at the end of the film after Bond throws a knife into his back come off as more of a joke leading into a snide comment, but are meant to be taken seriously.
- It doesn't help that the snide comment sounds forced even with the buildup.
- Every line of dialogue that comes out of Silva's mouth is unintentionally funny, even when he's being deadly serious, due to his childish, overgrown baby doll way of talking. Or it makes him even creepier.
Kirby0189
Kirby is shaped like a friend
from America
Since: Apr, 2019
Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
Kirby is shaped like a friend
#753: Jun 7th 2021 at 6:00:03 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The first bullet sounds fine to me, second sounds like the misuse, and the third is too general.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#754: Jun 7th 2021 at 10:37:57 AM
- General example
- The rest are all ZCEs.
Shadow8411
Since: Jul, 2019
#755: Jun 7th 2021 at 11:49:31 AM
I've cut them and cited this thread.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#756: Jun 8th 2021 at 4:34:23 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Spectre:
- Narm:
- "You are a kite dancing in a hurricane, Mr. Bond." As hard as it tries, Spectre really doesn't have quite the impact to back that line up. So it becomes this, especially since it gets repeated later in the film.
- The opening credits sequence: Craig's films' credits had been more sober and less blatantly fanservicey with more references and foreshadowing to the plot itself. The ones for Spectre harken back to the oversexed credits of the Brosnan era, with very few moments that don't consist of naked girls or naked Bond or tentacles, sometimes all together with a love song. As pointed out by at least one reviewer, they do make one think of tentacle porn.
- Madeleine telling Bond that he's "a good man" is utterly laughable—Craig's Bond films have made a point to underscore the fact that 007 kills people in cold-blood for a living. He does it all for the greater good, but he's definitely not an angel. She even repeatedly calls him that earlier in the film.
- Daniel Craig's inexplicable bellowed delivery of the line "Of course, Mr. White!" You half expect him to turn to the camera and say "Everybody got that?"
- Bond breaks the champagne flutes when it is clear Sciarra has no interest in just talking to him. The scene serves no purpose whatsoever.
- The film pouring all the drama it can into Oberhauser revealing his name is now Blofeld. Just like the reveal of the villain's identity in Star Trek Into Darkness, the theatrics are entirely for the benefit of the out-of-universe audience, as the name has never been mentioned before in this specific iteration and means absolutely nothing to the in-universe characters. The movie tries to pretend it has meaning, with it being Mrs. Oberhauser's maiden name, but it still amounts to nothing.
- Tanner checks C's pulse after he's fallen multiple stories and is obviously dead. This is made all the better by the fact that he actually says "He's dead".
- This line was widely mocked:
Moneypenny: You've got a secret. Something you can't tell anyone, because you don't trust anyone.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#757: Jun 8th 2021 at 12:36:17 PM
- Reads as "thing falls flat".
- Doesn't say what's funny.
- That's just Fridge Snark.
- Second sentence is unnecessary, and it's a ZCE.
- Not funny.
- Doesn't say what's funny.
- Reads as Fridge Snark. Could be fine with some elaboration.
- ZCE.
#758: Jun 8th 2021 at 10:39:55 PM
You... can't play with Narm since it's YMMV, right?
Found this on Saving Private Ryan, last saw that movie 8 years ago, don't remember if it sounds right
- Narm: Played with, if that's possible with this trope. The scene with the wrong Private Ryan, played by Nathan Fillion, can come across as accidentally hilarious since everyone knows that Matt Damon is the Ryan they're looking for. So with that foreknowledge, the scenes can come across as funny in a Crosses the Line Twice sort of way. But at the end of the scene, Fillion's Ryan is still worried about his brothers and realises he won't be going back home. His line "I wrote them a letter just yesterday" eliminates any humour the scene may have had.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#759: Jun 9th 2021 at 6:26:01 AM
Bringing up the following example from Mortal Kombat: Conquest:
- Narm: Shang Tsung screaming DAMN YOUUU! at the end of Undying Dream.
Shadow8411
Since: Jul, 2019
#760: Jun 9th 2021 at 6:55:05 AM
ZCE
YMMV can't be played with, and it sounds like a shoehorn.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#761: Jun 13th 2021 at 4:12:39 PM
Bringing up the following examples from The Book of Henry:
- Narm:
- The movie spends way too long setting up Henry as a child genius that is Too Good for This Sinful Earth, to the point that his mother accepting (up to the very last second) unquestionably the kid's decision that an abusive parent can only be stopped via assassination and on that very last second remembering that he was just a child just feels weird. That Henry, the filmmaker's objective notwithstanding, comes across more like an Insufferable Genius Jerkass that audiences would probably like to see getting a punch to the face at the very least doesn't helps any.
- The very idea that, on this day and age, Glenn had somehow been capable of evading all kinds of scrutiny regarding his kid's abuse to the point that assassination does look like the only way to make it stop. Not only could Henry or his mom could have been able to get video evidence with modern cell phones, but school jurisdictions go so overboard when they see a kid that looks abused that even the chief of police would need some hefty evidence (connections or not) to demonstrate that it's Not What It Looks Like.
- We do not truly know how long has the abuse been going on, but the first act of the film makes it look like the time the Carpenters notice something is wrong with the girl is the very first time they see this. Additionally, we don't see or have been told that Henry had talked to the principal about this at any time prior. Regardless, he barges into the principal's office in a matter typical of a Cowboy Cop movie, screaming "GODDAMMIT, JANICE! HOW MUCH LONG DOES THIS HAVE TO GO ON?!” like he's an middle-aged man and it is then that he says he's told her about this several times prior. What. Show, Don't Tell at its absolute finest, people.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#762: Jun 13th 2021 at 4:43:09 PM
- Just a flaw, not funny. Cut.
- Fridge complaining, not funny. Cut.
- Just a flaw, not funny & too bashy. Cut.
How sweet it is
#763: Jun 22nd 2021 at 2:26:17 PM
Found on Narm.Fan Works. Gut feeling says ZCE. Am I right?
- From the Death Note fic Gods of This New World: "Meanwhile, L had been in a harrier jet overhead... He readied a missile to be fired, and unleashed fiery hell on Mello."
There was a Shocking Swerve wick, but I pulled it due to TRS efforts (there's not enough evidence there anyways).
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
#764: Jun 22nd 2021 at 2:37:49 PM
Cut. How is it even funny?
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
How sweet it is
#765: Jun 22nd 2021 at 5:29:22 PM
Beats me. Anyways, it's cut.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
chasemaddigan
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#766: Jun 22nd 2021 at 5:32:29 PM
I found this entry on The Sponge Bob Movie Sponge Out Of Water and I'm not sure it really counts:
- Narm: The entire scene where SpongeBob and his friends confront BurgerBeard the first time is nearly impossible to take seriously. Mainly because they have never met him before, yet he portrays himself as the villain, being incredibly hammy while doing so. It feels more like he's playing the villain in a school play, rather than actually being a villain.
Now, I'm not really saying the scene's played for laughs (although there's plenty of jokes in it), but I'm not sure what the deal is here. From what I can gleam, it's complaining that Burger Beard is too silly, but he's not meant to be an intimidating villain. I'm tempted to cut this. Does anyone else agree?
Edited by chasemaddigan on Jun 22nd 2021 at 8:34:01 AM
mightymewtron
Angry babby
from New New York
Since: Oct, 2012
Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#767: Jun 22nd 2021 at 5:52:52 PM
If I remember correctly, this villain's plan is to ruin the Krusty Krab just to sell his own burgers. He's pretty goofy.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
miraculous
Goku Black
(Apprentice)
Goku Black
#768: Jun 22nd 2021 at 5:56:47 PM
Im not sure where the serious moment is from that.
He's supposed to be a goofy Laughbaly evil villain.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
themayorofsimpleton
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
from Elsewhere
(Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#769: Jun 22nd 2021 at 6:27:39 PM
Found on YMMV.Pinkalicious And Peterrific:
- Narm: This show is full of it. Scenes where Pinkalicious gets sad, are a little hard not to snicker at due to Pinkalicious' incredibly hammy delivery.
- The entirety of Peter's Blues. The episode kicks off with Peter being depressed over simply being depressed. The moment where Mayor Martinez cries over her favorite pencil breaking and threatening to shut down Pinkville takes the cake.
I brought this up on another cleanup with no response. Very complain-y, Bold Inflation problems. Cut, keep, or rewrite?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#770: Jun 23rd 2021 at 6:55:06 AM
They're both general examples and are super bashy. I'd say cut.
themayorofsimpleton
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
from Elsewhere
(Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#771: Jun 23rd 2021 at 2:36:23 PM
Thanks, I have removed the offending examples.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#772: Jun 24th 2021 at 2:33:11 PM
Reposting from the previous page:
Bringing up the following examples from Narm.The Shining:
- The smash cuts with scare chords that tell the date. At first it may be a good Jump Scare, but it quickly loses its effect. It only gets more unintentionally funny when you consider the implications that the dates themselves are somehow supposed to be scary. ("Oh no, not Tuesday!")
- The scene where the corridor floods with blood... and then a chair randomly floats by, turning the moment from Nightmare Fuel to Nightmare Retardant.
- The hose with sharp teeth snapping at the camera. It's as silly as it sounds. The poor CGI just makes it even more goofy.
- The topiaries standing still while making animal sounds. It would be a lot more scary if they were alive and moving. By having them stand still and not actually do anything, the scene comes off more as goofy Nightmare Retardant than anything as it appears that Jack is freaking out about nothing.
- The ghosts attacking Wendy...with streamers. Streamers. They make Streamers fall on her body and laugh mockingly at her while she yells at them to stop. Somehow this is supposed to be scary.
#773: Jun 24th 2021 at 2:40:42 PM
"The hose with sharp teeth snapping at the camera. It's as silly as it sounds. The poor CGI just makes it even more goofy." This feels like the only keepable one, and even then, eh.
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
mightymewtron
Angry babby
from New New York
Since: Oct, 2012
Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#774: Jun 24th 2021 at 3:16:06 PM
By having them stand still and not actually do anything, the scene comes off more as goofy Nightmare Retardant than anything as it appears that Jack is freaking out about nothing.
Isn't the possibility that he's freaking out over nothing but his own hacllucinations one of the reasons the movie is cited as being so scary? It's a psychological horror, after all.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
MrMediaGuy2
Since: Jun, 2015
#775: Jun 29th 2021 at 7:23:26 PM
From YMMV.Smallfoot.
- Narm: The theatrical trailer for the film openly displays the title and artist of the pop song being used, which is so blatantly trying to sell the song that it would make the most shameless hustler blush.
Total posts: 2,636
These entries are from Tipping The Velvet:
Tellingly, the last two bullet points were added 2014 and 2017, respectively. Everything else (apart from changing "negative" to "sepia" in the first bullet point) was added over a decade ago. This is likely why there's so many allcaps, a lot of natter, and complaining, and not as much in the way of context as there should be.
Edited by Shadow8411 on Jun 6th 2021 at 2:53:12 AM