Duplicate Trope: Kirks Rock

I started a discussion on Trope Talk here but was advised to bring this to TRS instead.

My initial concern was that I can hardly see any difference between Kirk's Rock and BBC Quarry. Is it the shape of the rock formation or the origin of the production company? Then Fighteer noted that there is an official trope naming policy never to refer to specific works or characters in titles. Kirk's Rock would be an artifact from before that policy was enforced and should be deleted or merged.

So, I see two ways to resolve this:

1. Establish the difference between Kirk's Rock and BBC Quarry, work this into the descriptions and find a new, policy-conforming name for Kirk's Rock.
2. Agree that there is no notable difference and merge both tropes under BBC Quarry.

Edited by eroock on Nov 26th 2018 at 5:02:45 PM

First action here: perform a wick check to see how many overlapping examples there are.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Kirk's Rock is about a specific, iconic-looking landmark in a specific, real place being used as a place for a dramatic showdown, in any medium. If it doesn't feature that specific rock formation, it's not an example.

BBC Quarry is the use of any quarry to stand in for space. If anything Kirk's Rock would be a subtrope of BBC Quarry. There's an argument that could be made that these are both Trivia, but I don't see how they're duplicates unless people are misusing both.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Vasquez Rocks, which have been used in Westerns and outer space movies and everything that needs a weird-looking rock background. There's even a Shout-Out in Cars where Kirk's Rock is shaped to look like the back end of an old muscle car. As noted above, not a duplicate of BBC Quarry.

If anything the trope is being underused. Per their website and wiki the list is extremely long, way longer than what is currently on the page.

Its also been animated in Futurama and Shrek.

Their list

Edited by Memers on Nov 26th 2018 at 1:59:35 AM

Alright, I did some more analysing and here's my findings.

• Kirk's Rock seems pretty solid: The iconic Vasquez Rocks (or a CGI version of it) show up in a work. There is hardly any misuse. I spotted these:
  • Tranquility Base: BBC Quarry / Kirk's Rock: Used frequently and lampshaded. - ZCE
  • Zorro: In the episode "The Missing Father", Zorro pursues a mysterious masked figure through such rocks. - unclear if the location is supposed to be Vasquez Rocks
  • Kaizoku Sentai Gokaiger: BBC Quarry / Kirk's Rock: There's this one concrete plaza◊ with a bunch of ramps and flat steps that has popped up several times. - misuse
  • In Star Trek (the original series in particular) every place they go seems to be a desert. And they all look suspiciously similar... - unclear
  • Scenery Gorn: Gorn Scenery - I am puzzled by this pothole
• BBC Quarry: This trope is more complicated. I think ~KJ Mackley is right in the Trope Talk discussion thread that this trope started out the same way as Kirk's Rock with a specific location in Wales being used in lots of media. However, over time it shifted into more of a generic "any place, especially quarries or canyons, regularly used for filming certain scenes". This is why the first line on Kirk's Rock (American equivalent of the BBC Quarry) irritated me because it only makes sense with the original idea of BBC Quarry in mind but not so much if you think of BBC Quarry as a generic sandpit setting.

Note that 90% of the named UK quarries are from the Blakes Seven and Doctor Who shows, probably added by one quarry enthusiast.

Given these results I would vote for rewriting BBC Quarry as a generic quarry-like setting instead of trying to hold on to a specific location as done for Kirk's Rock.

There is still the policy problem with "Kirk" in the title of Kirk's Rock. We do have similar issues with major tropes like Kirk Summation or Patrick Stewart Speech. Are we prepared to touch these?

Edited by eroock on Nov 27th 2018 at 7:40:37 PM

"Gorn Scenery" is a reference to the line in the Kirk's Rock description about it being most known for the Star Trek: The Original Series episode "Arena," in which Kirk fights an alien called a Gorn.

This feels more like a Useful Note to me. The rock itself isn't that important outside of the novelty of its existence.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

This is about a pattern found within works, it's definitely not a useful note. It might be Trivia though- Kirk's Rock seems like a subtrope of Hey, It's That Place!, which is trivia.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Depends on if it is a deliberate usage as an allusion or not. If It IS it is not trivia, IE Big Bang Theory and Futurama, if not it is trivia.

Edited by Memers on Nov 28th 2018 at 7:23:46 AM

Yes, this is trivia. "They used that one place to film a scene" carries no narrative meaning.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

But if it its an allusion to another work which also used that site? I don't think that is trivia.

Like The Episode of The Big Bang Theory where they are on their way to a star trek convention but get stranded at a set with Kirk's Rock in the background.◊ That is not Trivia.

Edited by Memers on Nov 30th 2018 at 4:01:06 AM

Trivia tropes can be used on works pages if they're lampshaded or In-Universe, correct? That seems like it would cover those examples.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

If the rocks were placed in the background purposely, it doesn't need a lampshading to make this a trope.

"Rocks in the background" is about as much People Sit on Chairs as, well, people sitting on chairs. It is only significant in context with other works that used the same set, because audiences may say, "Hey, that set looks familiar." It is the very definition of trivia. Or, for that matter, a non-trope, as we murdered Hey Its That Guy and Hey Its That Voice and buried them in shallow graves. This is basically Hey Its That Set.

Do we list Beach Sand as a trope because a lot of works are set on beaches that have sand? No, obviously not. Same thing.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 20th 2018 at 9:27:23 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

When a work uses a specific location as an allusion to another work which used that specific location that changes that quite a bit. Which is my issue, any other appearance would be trivia for lazy location scouting.

It’s often related to a shout-out but not always.

^ This. Hey, It's That Place! would be coincidental. We are assuming here the specific rock formation was included as an homage. Have a look at the examples in the new trope image of Kirk's Rock.

Kirk's Rock is not "rocks in background", nor is it appropriate to compare it to a hypothetical Beach Sand trope. It is a particular rock formation that has been used in media for 90 years or more because it is particularly striking and unusual (and of course because it's not far from Los Angeles). One could make a strong case that it should be Trivia but it is not a non-trope like Hey Its That Guy, which I agree was justly killed.

It was worked into Cars as a deliberate Shout-Out, after all.

Edited by jamespolk on Dec 23rd 2018 at 8:34:58 AM

Kirk's Rock is not the focus anymore of this thread, at least from my POV. May I direct the attention to comment 5 about the question what to do with BBC Quarry.

I agree that BBC Quarry should be broadened to "any generic quarry as a stand-in for space", as it's already used.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

The problem with the page is that for the first several decades of filmmaking, the location was used because it was not far from Los Angeles, and it could substitute for any other rocky desert.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Regarding the trope name itself, "Kirk's Rock" indeed refers to the character, but the name originates outside TV Tropes. I'd still prefer UsefulNotes.Vazquez Rocks if we were to make this a Useful Note.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Anybody else for broadening BBC Quarry to "any generic quarry as a stand-in for space"?