During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Frampt and Gwyndolin.
to the Dark Souls duo
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
DS Duo
Goku Black
DS duo
God. Damn it.
I'm double-checking my homework and I made a mistake: it's not specified who spread the rumors of the Chosen Undead. I could have sworn Kaathe made a statement about this, but it turns out he says something about his lingerie not fitting him anymore a vague, broad statement about "Gwyn's children shepherding the humans", so I may have misinterpreted that. As far as I can tell, there is nothing in-game supporting that these two are specifically responsible for spreading the legend.
Like, the rest of the deets in the EP are still accurate. The prophecy is still fabricated, they're still complicit, they're still clever deceivers, and of course they still, y'know, win.
But still. Sorry about the blunder.
Edited by DocSharp on Jan 26th 2019 at 11:43:45 AM
They still count, IMO, and it's quite impressive. Frampt technically never lies either with his claims you're destined to succeed Gwyn. He just....leaves out just a few very pertinent little details.
Yes to the Dark Souls duo.
Chirping in late to SU... Navy, mm, I suppose I'll yea, but solely on hitting the criteria. I hate her character with the kind of emnity that corrodes aluminum. On Pink? I'd heartily disagree she's not "bad" enough, on paper—she starts a war with her sisters under a false identity, then she keeps that war up even as it's established both Gems and people are dying ("No such thing as a good war, kiddo. Gems were destroyed... and people too."). Maybe you can say she wasn't expecting the Corruption blast—but the war itself needs to be put in perspective.
My main issue with her is her lack of foresight as others have said (staging a war with yourself is cool on paper, but the in-universe execution of it is a mess that pretty much causes all the major problems in the show that isn't a by-product of the other Diamonds' actions) and also, more specifically... as bad as she is? It still comes off as entirely unintentional. Like, Rose Quartz is only ever portrayed onscreen as an All-Loving Hero, and even much of Pink Diamond herself is the same scratching that one flashback through Stevonnie's eyes... all the death, all the pointless bloodshed, and the mass corruption that wouldn't have even happened if she hadn't stupidly faked her own death? It all comes off as because she thought out her actions too poorly, and caused more destruction because she tried to fix those actions with even worse actions.
Pink Diamond isn't a Machiavellian mastermind, she's a good person who created a bad scenario for herself and then made that scenario even worse and probably damaged her own friends worse than the Diamonds ever could. Her personal failings and lack of consideration is shown to cause massive psychological grief to pretty much everyone who knew her in life (and even some who never did), and none of it is intentional. The Crystal Gems (particularly Pearl and Bismuth)? Her Diamond sisters? Greg? Even Jasper? Because Pink didn't think about the effect her actions would have on them enough.
In short? Her manipulation is shot. Her charisma is questionable once you learn more about her. All of her "bastardy" is all unintentional. All of it. She never means to harm a soul, but for as many who she saves from extinction on Earth, she still needlessly harms so many people.
Hopefully, that'll serve as a solid rebuke if anyone ever decies to bring her up here.
Edited by Scraggle on Jan 27th 2019 at 4:39:54 AM
Dark Souls duo.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to the Dark Souls duo
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Batch, as always, feel free to add anything last minute you wanna see going up:
- Banana Fish: Former KGB Lieutenant Blanca becomes The Mentor to Protagonist Ash Lynx, making him into a merciless fighter. Hired by Dino Golzine, Blanca attacks and easily subdues Ash for Dino. When Ash manages to escape from Golzine's clutches, it is Blanca who hunts him down for them, using his knowledge of the New York City sewer system. Realizing the depths of the depravity of Yut-Lung, his current employer, Blanca betrays him and allies with Ash out of a show of his own beliefs of honor and human compassion, proving his status as Ash's most Worthy Opponent in the series.
- Nidome No Yuusha: The brilliant, charming Ueki Kaito ruthlessly takes any means necessary to avenge himself against those who betrayed him after he saved their world. Recruiting a young slave girl, Kaito viciously helps her poison both the slaver and the other slaves, transforming them into goblins and then killing them. Later allowing the Royal Capital to be ravaged by beasts, Kaito uses the destruction of an outer wall to escape. Pained by guilt after an innocent girl is caught in the debris, Kaito henceforth swears to avoid harming the innocent in his quest for vengeance.
- One Piece:
- Crocodile, one of the Seven Warlords of the sea, is the brilliant master of the Baroque Works syndicate. Playing himself off as a public hero while running the aforementioned criminal organization, Crocodile manufactures a drought and a rebellion to weaken the Nefertari family in Alabasta, while plotting a takeover himself. Showing contingency after contingency, Crocodile manipulates countless people, including his right-hand woman, Nico Robin, with whom he intends to seize the superweapon Pluton in order to cow the World Government into recognizing his authority. Even after defeat, Crocodile later returns in Impel Down and helps organize the jailbreak with his enemy Luffy.
- Sengoku the Buddha is the most brilliant of the Marine Admirals. The top Fleet Admiral of Marineford, Sengoku leads the execution of Portgas D. Ace, revealing to the world that Ace is the son of Gol D. Roger, the former Pirate King. With the arrival of Ace's captain, Whitebeard, Sengoku reveals a major trap for Whitebeard, sapping the morale of his forces with a carefully planned lie, trapping the pirates and closing in Marine forces, turning a near loss into a total rout for the strongest man alive with his own cunning.
- Letters from Iwo Jima: General Kuribayashi is an experienced officer in the Imperial Japanese Army who firmly believes in the principle of My Country, Right or Wrong. As a worldly Officer and a Gentleman who unlike many of his colleagues has actually visited the United States, Kuribayashi is firmly aware of the awesome American industrial and military strength and consigns himself to defending the island of Iwo Jima in a Last Stand. Kuribayashi's defensive tactics by utilizing Mount Suribachi's cave network and forbidding his soldiers from killing themselves or engaging in suicide attacks ends up causing disproportionately high casualties among the invaders. Fatally wounded after Kuribayashi and his last men charge the Americans, he instructs a peasant soldier he befriended during the battle with hiding his body from the enemy. Despite fighting for a losing genocidal empire, Kuribayashi retains an astonishing sense of dignity and military cunning.
- Thank You for Smoking: Nick Naylor is a slick Washington D.C. lobbyist speaking on behalf of the tobacco industry. As part of his job, Naylor frequently makes televised appearances to discredit anti-smoking activists—even managing to convince the Littlest Cancer Patient to come around to his point of view—by confusing them with a Chewbacca Defense, bribes a disgruntled ex-tobacco mascot from speaking out against big tobacco, and schemes with Hollywood executives to introduce new Product Placement of cigarettes in film. Nick gets into a fling with a reporter who releases a stinging exposée on Naylor and his associates in the "Merchants of Death" group that results in Nick being let go by his boss, but Nick manages to turn the situation to his advantage by discrediting the reporter with veiled comments about her tactics to the press, and facing down Senator Finistirre in a subcommittee hearing by advocating for the right to choose over moral policing while simultaneously exposing the Senator's hypocrisies. Nick manages to avoid the fall-out of the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement, becoming a spokesman for new industries peddling potentially dangerous products.
- Ricky Ricotta's Mighty Robot: Uncle Unicorn, the Big Bad of the seventh book, Ricky Ricotta's Mighty Robot vs. the Uranium Unicorns from Uranus, is likely the smartest adversary Ricky and his robot faced. Deciding to incapacitate the robot before going to conquer Earth, Uncle Unicorn later tries to have him destroyed while the robot is still debilitated under a spell. When his Ladybot is shut down, Uncle Unicorn adaptively turns on his backup generator and grows her to gigantic proportions.
- The Tale of Despereaux: Roscuro used to be a rat living in a ship, accidentally causing the death of the Queen of Dor due to his imprudence and causing Dor to become a gloomy place. Taken by the tyrannical Boticelli Remorso, Roscuro becomes his servant, helping him in the oppression of the other rats of the rat world with guilt, even helping Despereaux due to their mutual curiosity for the outside world. Intending to atone for his actions, Roscuro tries to apologize to Princess Pea but is harshly rejected. Resenting that, Roscuro manipulates the naive Miggery "Mig" Sow to kidnap the Princess by faking kindness before locking her in a room. Realizing his own awfulness after seeing Pea's despair, Roscuro betrays Boticelli and dooms him to his death, apologizing for his actions and returning to his life at sea after Dor returns to its former radiance.
- The Orville: Pria Levesque is a time traveller from the 29th century who arranges to be picked up by the Orville by faking a distress call. After arriving on board, Pria quickly gains the crew's trust by saving them from a dark matter storm before bonding with Captain Ed Mercer, who is still recovering from a painful divorce with his ex-wife (now First Officer) Kelly Grayson, and seducing him into a one-night stand. Meanwhile, Pria installs a device in the engine room through which she can remotely take over control of the ship in order to pilot it into a wormhole to the future, selling the Orville off as an antique and forcing the crew to live out the remainder of their lives on a remote planet. When her scheme fails, Pria makes one last attempt to convince Mercer to cooperate before calmly accepting the fact that her current version will be erased from history. Pria is among the cleverest foes the crew of the Orville have faced so far, with few managing to emotionally get under Mercer's skin like she has.
- Little Shop of Horrors: The evil Audrey II is a carnivorous plant with aspirations of world conquest. Arriving to Earth during a solar eclipse, Audrey II preys on the insecurities of Seymour Krelborn, falsely promising him fame and fortune in return for fresh meat. Audrey II takes advantage of Seymour's love for the real Audrey by suggesting to make her boyfriend "disappear" and shortly thereafter tempts Seymour into luring his boss into its maws when the threat of being exposed arises. A sassy, smooth-talking manipulator even when its true nature is on full display, Audrey II successfully brought about the end of mankind and stands as the prime example of the dangers of falling into temptation.
- Halo: The surprisingly eloquent and crafty Gravemind is the Lord of the Flood. A genius who nearly defeated the Forerunners with its strategy and power, Gravemind even managed to use its force of will and a Breaking Speech to turn a loyal AI to Gravemind's own side while instituting a Logic Bomb on the other AI. After being defeated and returning in the current day, Gravemind manipulates the Master Chief and Arbiter into fighting for it to handle its enemies as it prepares the Flood to take over all else, even employing its clever strategy to spread itself, such as when it takes over a ship and crashes it to take over a populated city. Even in defeat, Gravemind proclaims that besting it for the moment is simply added time to "a sentence I never deserved, but you imposed", truly believing that peace will be gained when the Flood dominate the galaxy.
- Heavy Rain: The Origami Killer, aka Scott Shelby, is the elusive mastermind behind the game's events, evading capture and committing his murders for years. Suffering the tragic loss of his brother after his drunk father failed to save him, the Origami Killer would grow up to search for a father that would do anything for his son by kidnapping children and drowning them with rain water while manipulating their fathers into enduring life-threatening trials. These trials include: driving into ongoing traffic; crawling through a tunnel filled with glass before walking through a maze of electrical capacitors; cutting one's own fingers; being forced to kill someone; and consuming a potentially poisonous drink. He would also pretend to investigate his own murders to collect and dispose of any evidence that could incriminate him while killing any potential witnesses. Depending on the player's actions, he can witness Ethan Mars rescue his son and Ethan can kill the Origami Killer, which the latter happily embraces because he'll die accomplishing his ultimate goal: finding a father who would do anything to save his son.
- Cyberchase: The seemingly friendly Ledge reveals himself as the mastermind behind the outbreak in the "Sensible Flats" episode. Devising a machine that transforms its victims into replicas of the Hacker in three minutes, Ledge deceives the Cybersquad into exhausting themselves, nearly succeeding at disposing them. In his next appearance, Ledge decides to outdo his former idol as a villain. Tricking the Hacker into wearing a clown suit, Ledge snaps a picture at his expense and publishes it worldwide. Upon learning of the Blue Bird of Zappiness, Ledge bugs the Hacker and effortlessly manipulates Buzz & Delete to his side, having backup plans in store if they proved to be problematic. Despite his few appearances, Ledge earns the ire of both the Cybersquad and the Hacker and stands as the most competent and dangerous of the series' antagonists for a reason.
- Steven Universe: The Homeworld Gem nicknamed Navy is a member of the Ruby Squad. Appearing to be nothing more than a bumbling imbecile, Navy is sent to Earth on a mission to retrieve Jasper. After getting separated from her team and becoming stranded on Earth, Navy fakes redemption, exaggerating her personality to win over the Crystal Gems. After ingratiating herself into the group, Navy reclaims the Roaming Eye whilst gleefully pulling the rug from under the Crystal Gems her upbeat attitude never faltering.
Quotes:
Replacement for MagnificentBastard.Anime And Manga:
Entry for MagnificentBastard.Theatre:
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
looks good
Edited by G-Editor on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:54:48 AM
Btw does anyone who's seen Urinetown wanna give a stab at truncating Cladwell or am I the only one who thinks his entry is a bit longer than it needs to be?
Edited by 43110 on Jan 27th 2019 at 11:26:55 AM
Lizzid people!
Sadly, I have not seen it.
I've seen the play. Frankly, I never really viewed him as an MB to begin with. He doesn't exactly do any manipulation or brilliant ploys (on-screen anyway). He just took advantage of a situation and became a typical Corrupt Corporate Executive.
Here's a potential re-write anyway
- Urinetown: Cladwell B. Cladwell is the CEO of the Urine Good Company (UGC). Bribing Senator Flip into letting him enforce fees for public amenities, Cladwell has been profiting off the drought for years, sending those who defy him to their deaths. When the Poor, led by Bobby Strong, revolt, Cladwell confronts them, trying to explain that his actions are for their good since he keeps the water regulated for use "tomorrow" as opposed to their desire for it "today." When Bobby shows up to negotiate a deal, Cladwell offers the Poor full amnesty in exchange for them releasing Hope and paying the new fees. When Bobby turns this down, Cladwell has him killed despite being told that the Poor will kill Hope if that happens. When Cladwell is condemned to Urinetown, he defiantly shouts that his methods were what was best for the town, the statement being proven to be correct when people begin to die out due to the irresponsible managing of the water.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Made the re-write
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Jan 27th 2019 at 11:42:37 AM
All good and I can do it myself if need be, it's just that I haven't seen it so I'll basically just be playing around with what's already written.
Fair enough but as a whole we did decide to upvote him. Are you down to work on the entry or do you want me to take a whack at it, given he's a character you didn't even wanna see up?
Ayyyyye, works for me!
Edited by 43110 on Jan 27th 2019 at 11:43:14 AM
Hey guys, I’ve been thinking about wether or not to EP this character from Assassin's Creed , The same game I EP Al Mualim, but I decided to say hey It’s worth a shot. Now since I’ve already explain the premise when I EP Al Mualim, so I’ll go straight in introducing my next candidate Robert de Sablé.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Robert de Sablé was the 11th Grand Master of the Knights Templar Order from 1190 until his death in 1191, and a lieutenant in King Richard I's Crusader army.
Now Robert de Sable led the expedition to uncovere an extremely powerful artifact known as the Apple of Eden, where Robert planned to share its powers with his nine fellow conspiritors.
However one of those conspirators, Al Mualim, wanted the apple’s power for himself so he send his assassins to retrieve the Apple from them. However Robert knew about Al’s greed and fully anticipating treachery and attempt at his life, easily defending himself and beating Al Mualim’s top student Altair Altaïr Ibn-La’Ahad.
However the Assassin’s were still able to steal the apple, though they barley managed to do so, but Robert has a spy at the Assassin’s headquarters, Masyaf, where they planned to lay siege to Masyaf, with the only reason why it failed was because of Al Mualim’s thinking, but never the less Robert kept his cool and retreats to rethink his strategy.
During that time Robert manages to manipulate the many fighting Crusaders and Sacarens into joining the Templar Order through his eight remains conspirators, thus making the Templar more powerful than ever. However Al Mualim has Altair kill off those eight remaining conspirators.
With them dead all that was left was to kill Robert De Sable. However Robert, fully expected this and came up with a calculating plan that would benefit the Templars. He made Majd Addin's funeral in Jerusalem into a trap, placed the best soldiers and a female decoy dressed as him, and hoped they would distract and kill Altaïr.
Meanwhile he himself would travel to Arsuf, to form an alliance of the Crusaders and Saracens against the Assassins by using Altaïr's successes to convince the leaders of both factions to unite a face a common enemy.
Altair after learning of Robert’s ploy travels to Arsuf to convince Richard of Lionheart that his lieutenant Robert would eventually betray him, while Robert would say that Assassin’s are great deceivers. Richard decides to have them duke it out leaving his decision of whose right to God
After a long battle Altair becomes the victor, but Robert has one last trick up his sleeve before he dies. He tells Altair that his mentor Al Mualim is actually a Templar himself and that he’s been using the Assassins this whole time. This causes Altair to travel back to Masyaf and confront Al Mualim’s treachery and kill him, so in a way Robert’s kind of the reason why Al Mualim’s plans fail.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As the Grand Master of the Templar Order he’s got both intelligence and charisma on his side. He two sides against each other (Crusaders and Sacarens) into becoming his pawns and having them do his biding.
Since he’s a big thinker on Equal-Opportunity Evil He doesn’t show any bad opinion toward each opposing faction recruiting all of them to his cause and attempts the convince them to stop fighting each other and team up to face the Assassins. He even recruits a woman, into his cause, despite the fact that during that time time, Templars didn’t have a high opinion on women, with the exception of Robert who recognizing their strengths.
He’s also a brilliant strategist anticipating both attempts at his life and counterattack with calculated plans, as such with the siege of Masyaf and the ploy with luring Altair into a trap at Adin’s funeral while makes his aforementioned alliance all while he never loseing his cool. Hell the only reason why he fails is because Altair is a One-Man Army and Al Mualim is a fellow MB but even then he keeps his cool and merely tell’s Altair of Al Mualim’s treachery before gracefully passing.
What The Competition Like?
Now we’ve already got Al Mualim as a MB, but I think Robert is different enough to qualify as well. While Al Mualim is an old man who needs to rely more on manipulation, charisma, and a powerful artifact to succeed, Robert proves himself to a formidable foe both cerebral and in combat, not afraid to getting his own hands dirty, easily defeating Altair in their first battle and still giving his a hard time before getting defeated. Even then he never once looses his cool and tell Altair of Al Mualim’s treachery, leading to the old man’s death. In all Robert manages to get a postmortem victory over Al.
Is He A Bastard? Is He Too Much Of a Bastard?
He’s the leader of the Assassin’s Arch-Enemy, has killed many people himself, lets his men carry out their bad deeds, and leads a conspiracy of using the Apple to completely control the Holy Lands, so yeah he’s a bastard.
That said compared to other baddies the AC franchise including approved CM Majd Adin in the same game Roberts actually okay. He genuinely believes that the Apple to better humanity and finally bring peace to the Holy Lands and even the rest of the world, never partakes in any deplorable or sadistic acts, was willing to share the Apple’s power with his fellow conspirators and shows some degree of respect towards Altair, enough to warn Altair about Al Mualim’s true nature leading to the latter’s downfall.
Final Verdict?
I’ll Leave that to you guys!
Edited by G-Editor on Jan 27th 2019 at 9:57:58 AM
Okay, it's been a long time waiting, but let's talk Gordon Gekko. There's a lot of ground to cover, so get strapped in.
What is the work?
Wall Street, a drama film made by Oliver Stone at the height of the Reaganomics era. Its sequel, Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps, was made a whopping twenty-odd years later against the backdrop of the 2008 banking crisis, but set in the same continuity.
Who is Gordon Gekko? What has he done?
Gordon Gekko is an iconic character played by Michael Douglas. Gekko is a ruthless Wall Street businessman running an equity firm involved in a bit of everything: some stock market speculation, some real estate, but he's most known for his hostile takeovers of other companies, prompting one of his rivals to even dismiss him as a greenmailer. By the start of the first film, Gekko is already a renowned figure with a net worth in the hundreds of millions after starting his first business in 1969.
The film's protagonist Bud Fox (Charlie Sheen) is a regular stockbroker who has been trying to get himself in Gekko's good graces, finally earning himself an audience after about a hundred phonecalls to his secretary and a few gifts such as Cuban sigars. Gekko isn't impressed, but when Fox provides him with inside information on Blue Star Airlines (Fox's father is a longtime employee at Blue Star and a union spokesman) that will cause their stock to rise, Gekko takes him up on his offer. However, Gekko soon finds out that Fox is a one-trick pony, and to continue earning his mentorship arranges for Fox to continue providing Gekko with inside information on other companies, even posing as a janitor to break into their files (the film is a bit odd about its legal aspects, portraying Bud following a businessman around in public as circumspect in the same manner, which should really be classified as public knowledge). When Gekko finds out that his longtime rival, English billionaire and recently naturalized US citizen Sir Larry Wildman, is intending to invest in Annacot Steel, he buys up a bunch of stock as well to threaten his rival's ownership and spreads rumors to inflate demand, forcing Larry to settle with Gekko mano a mano, since Larry intends to turn around Annacot, not dismember it for his own gain. As well, Gordon manages to take over Teldar Paper by convincing his fellow shareholders to vote against restructuring them with a public speech admonishing the company's internal corruption and how "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good" (the emphasis is important, but often forgotten). Eventually, Fox convinces Gekko to become a majority shareholder in Blue Star, intending to stop it from hemorrhaging money by cutting back pay temporarily with the union's support so they can implement new strategies to become a major competitor of the big airline companies. However, Gekko decides that breaking up Blue Star will be easier and net him a greater profit by raiding the company's pension fund. Fox conspires against Gekko, spreading more rumors to cause the stock's price to fall massively in a single day so Gordon will be forced to dump it at the threat of even greater losses, then having Larry Wildman buy it up at the lowest possible value with assurances that he will protect the integrity of the company. Bud Fox is later arrested for financial crimes, then wears a wire when Gekko meets him to chew him out for his betrayal.
As the sequel shows, Gekko did get nabbed on insider trading after spending five years in court, but it would have only netted him a few months tops, where it not for the fact that Gordon's successor Bretton James revealed information about Gekko's involvement with securities fraud that got Gekko sent to prison for several years. When Gekko gets out of jail in 2001, his son has died of a drug overdose despite his best efforts, his wife has committed suicide, and his daughter Winnie is completely estranged from him. Seven years later, Gekko has released a book discussing his career in the financial market, and is busy on a speaking tour. The sequel's protagonist is a young banker named Jake Moore (Shia Labeouf) who is romantically involved with Winnie Gekko. Jake works at Lehman Bro... Keller Zabel, a bank founded by Jake's mentor and quasi-father figure Louis Zabel, and is also involved with a project to develop fusion energy. When the subprime mortage crisis first hits, Keller Zabel is hit hardest, who is forced to ask the Federal Reserve for a bailout. However, the Fed, led by Goldman Sac... Churchil Schwartz and its Chief Operating Officer Bretton James (underling and heir apparent of Julius “Julie” Steinhardt, its 94-year old CEO), refuses to help Zabel out of petty revenge for Zabel having previously refused to help James after he made a huge loss in the dotcom bubble. The next day, Zabel commits suicide by jumping in front of a subway train. Jake, after mourning the loss of his mentor, reaches out to Gekko for advice and to mend relations with his estranged father-in-law. Winnie, however, warns Jake that Gordon is using him, which Jake ignores. On Gekko's advice, Jake illegally spreads false rumors (hard to prove in court, though) about an impending nationalization of oil fields in Equatorial Guinea which Churchill Schwartz has heavily invested in, costing them millions of dollars. After meeting with Bretton James in person, who admires his guts, he is offered a job by James, who promises to invest in his fusion power project. Jake's skills and pitch manages to catch the eye of several Chinese clients, making him a rising star in Churcill Schwartz, but later the banking crisis gets even worse after Keller Zabbel's bankruptcy, so the rest of the major banks ask the Fed for an 800 billion dollar bailout. Jake later learns that James is pulling out of his energy project, though Jake quickly discerns that his real motive is protect his own investments in various fossil fuel industries. Jake resigns, and convinces Winnie to retrieve Gekko's 100 million dollar trust fund stored in Switzerland, as Jake hoped that Gekko would invest in instead. Gekko takes the money and starts a new investment firm in The City of London, since by judicial decree he is not allowed to trade on US soil anymore after his previous convictions. Realizing that he has been played for a complete schmuck by Gekko, Jake breaks up with Winnie before he manages to convince Gekko to "invest" in his family by showing him sonograms of his grandchild. Meanwhile, James earns his commuppance when Jake makes public information about James' responsibility for destroying the credibility of Keller Zabel by spreading rumors about their toxic debt before negotating the bailout of his own company while simultaneously having bet on the collapse of the housing market. This causes enough outrage that Julie turns against James, fires him, and makes a deal with Gekko's new firm. In the end, Gekko takes Jake up on his offer, and makes amends with his family.
How do his actions and personality show he is a Magnificent Bastard?
Gekko is a machiavellian social climber taking lessons from Sun Tzu, using whatever tactics he can use to assure his own ascendancy, even breaking the law at several points. Like other members of the upper-upper class, when he's not working, Gekko lives a lavish lifestyle in mansions, buying up art and antiques, and indulging in similar extracurricular actitivities. He's also an expert social manipulator, essentially acting as The Corrupter to both Bud Fox and Jake Moore, and uses various tactics to manipulate the stock market to outmaneuver his rivals or win public support. At the same time, while a ruthless businessman and Corrupt Corporate Executive, he never once engages in truly heinous crimes like murder. Gekko is a realistic (albeit very stylized) character, not a cartoon villain. Also, despite using his family as pawns in the second film, it's clear that deep down he does care for them, with his heartfelt confession about trying to rescue his son from drugs (a bit of Reality Subtext from Douglas's own life there) and his later reconciliation with Winnie.
Mitigating Factors?
Gekko is an interesting character to observe for this trope because in the first film, you could make a strong case that he's more of a Smug Snake, with him being outsmarted by Fox in the end, and ending the film in a Villainous Breakdown cursing at Fox screwing him over. However, much like Jafar, he rebounds completely by the time of the sequel, never once losing his cool, and climbing back to the top through his own scheming and cunning. It also rehabilitates him a bit by contrasting Gekko with Bretton James, an actual Smug Snake.
Verdict?
Ayup. He's got the brains, the charisma, and the unscrupulousness to pass all criteria of the trope, especially taking what transpires in the sequel into account.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Jan 28th 2019 at 6:50:27 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Robert and Gecko
Having only seen the first Wall Street I would have been tempted to write Gekko off as a Smug Snake but that's a good case for a recovery in the sequel, so yeah there.
Similarly, (I haven't played Assassin's Creed in over a decade) I thought Robert got played by Al-Mualim but as that doesn't seem to quite be the case I'm fine for him going up too.
Ditto both
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to both of them... Have to admit that I do wanted to see Wall Streets but nice case that you made there Morgen!
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Goku Black
Both.
Yes there