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Unclear Description: Rational Fic

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To-do list:

  • Since Rational Fic is now a Definition-Only Page, references to the term can be kept, but examples must be removed, and wicks that are not references to the term should also be removed. Progress is being kept using the Rational Wick Cleaning sandbox.
  • Since there are multiple definitions of Rational Fic used offsite, the description may be amended to include those definitions. Note that this is optional, and does not have to be done through this thread (it may be done via the Trope Description Improvement Drive later on, for example).

    Original post 
Rational Fic's laconic says it's about "work[s] of fiction designed to encourage logical thinking," and the page quote is from an article about how to write stories that model good thinking habits the readers can replicate. However, my wick check found that almost none of the examples matched this description. The most common use was in the opening sentences of work pages, but besides that...
  • 4 of the wicks described works with rationalist protagonists.
  • 9 were about Alternate Universe Fics where characters are more competent, which is similar to Fix Fic.
  • 2 seemed more like Deconstruction Fics based on the information provided.
  • 2 described works with internal logic that holds up to scrutiny.
  • 5 were gushing.

The bulk of the description consists of gushing about how smart these works are, with lists of "good" and "bad" tropes and a paragraph about how Tropes Are Not Good tacked on at the end. There have been concerns about gushing since it was launched (without TLP) in 2014. What it doesn't explain is what rationalism is, and most of the criteria — lack of contrivance, internal consistency, competent characters — can apply to any work.

The on-page examples vary wildly in quality; some are general plot summaries, some explain how the characters act rationally, and some are just the title. If it's a genre (which it might not be; Septimus Heap said it's more like a philosophy about how to write a story), then these works shouldn't have any descriptions at all.

Finally, the scope is unclear. "Fic" is usually considered a shorthand for fanfiction (as seen in titles such as Alternate Universe Fic, Accusation Fic, etc.), and while most of the examples are fanfics (which are soft-split into two folders even though the oneshots folder only has two examples) and Rational Fic is only listed on fanfic-related indexes, there are a sizeable number of original works as well. Rational Fiction and Rationalist Fiction are both redirects, but making one of them the "proper" title would be a lot less ambiguous.

Wick check:

The issue: To quote Tropes Needing TRS, Rational Fic has a gushy description that reads like a "So You Want To" page with a "Tropes Are Not Good" tacked on at the end. It has lists of "good" and "bad" tropes without explaining how they're used in the genre, doesn't explain what rationalism is, and the examples read like Fanfic Recs.

Also, the name makes it sound like it's only about fanfics, but it isn't. The description explains why:

Because HPMoR marked the emergence (or at least, codification) of the genre, the name uses Fic instead of fiction; some fans use the terms Rational Fiction, Rationalist Fic, and Rationalist Fiction interchangeably, though most use Fiction for published/non-derivative works, and Rationalist for works that not only aim for realistic intelligence, but try to teach principles of rationality.

Relevant Trope Talk thread.

The wicks were chosen by pasting the contents of the related page into a list randomizer.

Wicks checked: 52/52 (Note: two Fanfic Recs pages are listed twice because they had two links to Rational Fic that fit into different folders.)


    open/close all folders 
    The work has a rationalist protagonist (4/52) 
  1. FanficRecs.Animorphs: Parting the Clouds is a Rational Fic that takes place in an alternate universe where Cassie is recast as a rationalist. The series retells the events of Animorphs from Cassie's POV, emphasizing her knowledge of animal biology, zoology, as well as her diplomatic skills.
  2. Creator.AE Van Vogt: The Null-A novels are a classic example of this genre — one of the first to use aspects of rational thinking and non-Aristotelian logic as the basis for world-building and character interactions — and considered a major influence. Alfred Korzybski's phrase "The map is not the territory" is used as a slogan.
  3. Literature.Eden Green: Eden is a self-styled rationalist, and her thought processes are shown in pain-staking detail. Whereas Ron and Tedrin treat everything as a big adventure, Eden does her best (as an amateur) to apply scientific rationale to the symbiote and monsters.
  4. Literature.Mother Of Learning: There are almost no blunders on the protagonists’ part that can be called out on. To elaborate, the character doesn't do anything stupid based on the information they are provided with, rather than never make a mistake.

    Gushing (5/52) 
  1. Fanfic.Uzumaki Naruko To The Victor The Spoils V 2: It's a SeerKing fic, it's to be expected with notable examples being Naruko being introduced to her heritage much much sooner than in canon, Ino and Hinata moved from their canon teams in order to progress over their self-inflicted restraints, Kakashi being reprimanded for his lackluster teaching skills, etc.
  2. Fanfic.Chasing The Shadow: The story is written with the express intent of being less blatantly silly than the story writing of the original eventually became, and has thus far been relatively successful in that regard.
  3. Sandbox.Doc Future: The plot’s advancement or resolution never relies on an Idiot Ball, and the only times when a character makes a rash decision is when it fits their general personality. Conflicts are often resolved through conversations and attempts to understand the other side’s stance on the matter. Situations which could be easily dramatized by using tropes like petty jealousy or revenge also graciously spare the readers from the nausea and move in other directions instead.
  4. Rescued from the Scrappy Heap: SeerKing does this in Code Geass: The Prepared Rebellion to most Scrappys by way of making it a Rational Fic. In fact, the only one who seems to be stuck in a psudeo-Scrappy state is Suzaku, and even that's justified by establishing his Black-and-White Morality as a trauma-induced mental disorder.
  5. ChildOfTheStorm.Tropes Q To Z: As surprising as this might be, the fic is written at least partially in this style (it helps that the magic is drawn heavily from The Dresden Files), with the author noting that his main interest was in exploring the consequences of mixing worlds, with the reactions to the premise (Thor was James Potter, as part of a first run at the whole humility thing), and the reactions to those reactions, driving the plot. Additionally, it ticks most of the rest of the boxes for a fic along these lines; Foreshadowing and, to a lesser extent, Fridge Brilliance, abound, the most successful characters deploy out-of-the-box thinking, and the most successful character of all, resident Magnificent Bastard Doctor Strange, practically redefines Crazy-Prepared and takes a very coldly rational approach to matters (despite, or even because of, being at least slightly mad). However, we say 'partially', because the author also repeatedly emphasising that he writes characters as people, and they are therefore as prone to doing stupid, irrational things, because that's what people do - however, they always have some personal reason for such actions, meaning that generally It Makes Sense in Context. Also, this example on an objective page contains two YMMV items.

    Fanfics where characters are smarter/more competent (9/52) 
  1. Fanfic.Aporia: Played with. The author says: "It could be a rational-fic, but since idealistic philosophy is typically not seen as very rational, it’s only a philoso-fic instead". In any case, it's a thorough Deconstruction Fic, in a world with a deliberate shortage of Idiot Balls. Can genres even be "played with"?
  2. CodeGeassThePreparedRebellion.Tropes A To I: Death by Irony: Being a Rational Fic, many characters are smarter and more competent than their canonical counterparts. This, however, backfired big time on C.C.'s former contractor Mao, who was able to track her down months in advance compared to canon and ended up following her to Shinjuku and getting caught and killed in the crossfire for his troubles.
  3. Fanfic.Love Hina Like It Could Have Been: To an extent. The story's plot is basically "What if everyone in Love Hina actually thought a little bit instead of leaping blindly to the first conclusion they think of?" Examples are not arguable.
  4. FanficRecs.Game Of Thrones Ascent: (1)
  5. Fanfic.The Price Of Revenge: Has elements of this. The characters avoid the Conflict Ball and (mostly Jason) the Villain Ball. While Bruce disagrees with Jason's methods, he does acknowledge that they work and he's willing to extent an olive branch to him.
  6. FanficRecs.Downton Abbey:
  7. FanficRecs.Doki Doki Literature Club: (1) One of the best parts is the Rational Fic treatment the author gives to the entire In Another World With My Smartphone cast and worlbuilding. To name a few, it took some time for twin sisters Linze and Elze to actually trust someone as eccentric as Playa until they realized that he's more of One of the Kids than actually dangerous except when circumstances take a turn for the serious. The King and Duke of Belfast are warily welcome of him and his "spirit companion" because their power and early 21st century understanding of politics, military, and economics makes them all-too-capable of improving or destroying a kingdom like theirs. Princess Yumina doesn't fall in Love at First Sight with him, yet she still wants to get married to him because her empathic powers tell her he's uniquely unlikely to use her for political power or wealth, nor he'll feel threatened if she eclipses him by actually ruling Belfast despite the kingdom's Heir Club for Men laws and culture.
  8. Fanfic.Naruto The Game Of Life: A lot of named characters behave a lot more intelligently than in canon. Partial-context example.
  9. Fanfic Tropes: A fan fiction that has the characters think more rationally than they did in the source material.

    Deconstruction Fics (2/52) 
  1. Fanfic.With This Ring: The story has shades of this as it showcases how much improvement the world could actually be when all that advanced hero and villain tech is put to good use. It also doesn't shy away from the consequences of crisis events such as Displaced either.
  2. Fanfic.The World Is Your Oyster The Universe Is Your Namesake: Intended as such, goes into the reasons for the Empire’s interest in earth and the long term consequences. Talking about the larger effec the Gems presence has had on earth and more.

    A work's internal logic holds up to scrutiny (2/52) 
  1. Literature.The Iron Teeth: The story's world-building is intended to stand up to careful thought and follow logical rules. This is partial-context. How does it hold up to scrutiny? What are those logical rules?
  2. She-Ra and the Princesses of Power:
    • World War Etheria by MHD
    • Recommended by: Third-attemptS
    • Status: Completed
    • Synopsis: She-re 2018 is a masterpiece in writing and representation but it's still a kid's show. What would it be like with consistent worldbuilding (such as the logistics needed to actually win wars), adult relationships and morality while still maintaining the hopeful tone of the series.
    • Tags: Filling in the Blanks, Rational Fic

    ZCE/work descriptions/other (30/52) 
  1. Literature.Ibyabek: Ibyabek is a story by Glowfic and Rational Fic writer Alicorn (of Luminosity fame), featuring North Korea In Space. Written for NaNoWriMo.
  2. FanficRecs.Game Of Thrones Ascent: (2)
  3. Sufficiently Analyzed Magic: A subtrope of Fantastic Science. Compare and contrast The Spark of Genius. Can be a direct result of Rational Fic.
  4. Administrivia.Tropes Needing TRS: Gushy description that reads like a "So You Want To" page with a "Tropes Are Not Good" tacked on at the end. It has lists of "good" and "bad" tropes without explaining how they're used in the genre, doesn't explain what rationalism is, and the examples read like Fanfic Recs.
  5. Rational Fiction: Redirect
  6. Fanfic.Parting The Clouds: Cassie is recast as a rationalist.
  7. Fanfic.Owls And Souls Witches And Resonance: To a degree, as several major characters have some amount of Adaptational Intelligence.
  8. Fanfic: A fan fiction written to reward the canon author for their good thinking. "Reward the canon author"? No... that's not what this genre means at all.
  9. Decon-Recon Switch: Saga of Soul is a Rational Fic take on a Magical Girl Warrior defending Tokyo from the Monster of the Week. It constantly flips the switch in showing how seemingly superfluous elements of the genre can make sense. This is commented-out as a zero-context example.
  10. Fanfic.Friendship Is Optimal: Friendship is Optimal is a My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic rational story by Iceman.
  11. Fanfic.Life Ore Death: This story has shades of it, but just as often comes up with reasonable in-universe reasons for the irrational events as having them replaced by rational occurrences. Also, people don’t always have perfect information or judgment, so everything tends to be a Gambit Pileup.
  12. Literature.Fine Structure: A Web Serial Novel of rational science fiction short stories by Sam Hughes, kept on his website, Things of Interest, and on Everything2.
  13. Rationalist Fiction: Another redirect.
  14. Fanfic.Code Geass The Prepared Rebellion: Code Geass: The Prepared Rebellion is a Code Geass Fan Fic that is a mix of Alternate Universe Fic and Rational Fic written by SeerKing.
  15. Pantheon.Writing Techniques:
    • Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, God of Rationalist Fiction (General Chaos, Harryzer, The-Boy-Who-Destroyed-A-Dementor, Tom Riddle, Good Voldemort)
    • Finding a candidate for Rational Fic had been a daunting task, mainly because the best candidates were from fanfics, and several of them already have canon counterparts in the Pantheon. And then someone in the Court of the Gods found an ideal pick, and his case was argued with the fact that as a fanfic trope, only a Fanfic character can properly hold it, and he is the most well-known representative of it. This example is commented-out on the page, but it highlights the confusion about if this is a fanfic-exclusive genre or not.
  16. Fanfic.Ashikabi Of Thunder And Lightning: Considering the author, it's not a surprise that many characters act more rationally than in canon.
  17. Literature.Three Worlds Collide: Three Worlds Collide is a rational web novella by Eliezer Yudkowsky of the semi-firm SF variety.
  18. Creator.Lawrence Watt Evans: Lawrence Watt-Evans is a primarily Speculative Fiction writer who also works in comic books, and has dabbled in a few other genres. He's most famous for The Legends of Ethshar series, and for a tendency towards Deconstruction and Rational Fic.
  19. Pantheon.Other Media: Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, God of Rationalist Fiction (General Chaos, Harryzer, Tom Riddle, Good Voldemort) as an Intermediate God in the Hall of Writing Techniques (House of Narrative)
  20. Fanfic.Harry Potter And The Methods Of Rationality: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is a Harry Potter rational fanfic by Eliezer Yudkowsky, AI researcher and decision theorist.
  21. Literature.Saga Of Soul: A must read for any troper considering the Magical Girl career.
  22. Fanfic.Sunshine Superman: As the story is set in the Silver Age and is filled with illogical superhero shenanigans, Sunshine confronts all of this.
  23. Fanfic.Luminosity: Luminosity is a Twilight rational fanfiction series by Alicorn, which can be read here.
  24. FanficRecs.Sekirei: Comments: As with most Seer King's works, expect this to have a lot of Rational Fic tropes present. This is about Ashikabi of Thunder and Lightning.
  25. Roleplay.Marked For Death: Marked for Death is a rational Naruto quest focused on a group of ninja from Hidden Mist.
  26. Literature.Worth The Candle: A rational look at Trapped in Another World stories. It's easy to think the whole thing's just an excuse for Alexander Wales to show off his Worldbuilding chops.
  27. Fanfic.Pokemon The Origin Of Species: Pokemon: The Origin of Species is a rational fanfic of the Pokémon games by Daystar Eld.
  28. Fanfic.In Another World With Just Monika: In Another World with JUST MONIKA is a Doki Doki Literature Club! and In Another World With My Smartphone crossover by Charles Bhepin, notable for being a really well-balanced mix of Crack Fic and Rational Fic.
  29. FanficRecs.Doki Doki Literature Club: (2) Tags: It should be called a Crack Fic, but it's too much of a Rational Fic and the two main characters are WAY too well-read for that.
  30. AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.Fan Works: Is Lelouch more stable in Code Geass: The Prepared Rebellion because of the Rational Fic trope, or the You Need to Get Laid trope?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 31st 2022 at 8:35:50 AM

ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#51: Oct 24th 2022 at 11:20:20 AM

Voting to d-o, but wanted to point out that Heart disambiguates between the card game with an s and the trope with a definite article, so if we did disambiguate, listing HPMOR should be fine.

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#52: Oct 24th 2022 at 11:33:23 AM

To be fair, that's one of those "make a disambig for every word out there" pages and not a TRS-style trope disambig... But I agree that listing the work would be fine.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#53: Oct 24th 2022 at 2:53:00 PM

If there has to be discussions on "how to define it", is it really a genre? Everyone seems to have a different definition.

I have seen similar discussions on how to define science fiction. Not everyone in the threads agreed on what stories counted (especially non-fanfics like Death Note) but there was consensus that it existed.

Much of the problem is that this genre started off with one particular fanfic and its immediate followers, but never broke out of a small niche. Hence much of the discussion amounts to "how far can they stray from HPatMoR while still being in this type of fic?" But the basic rules are understood: the main characters, including antagonists, are given clear objectives that they pursue to the best of their knowledge and ability with no emotion, doubt or external morality clouding their judgement, their reasoning is laid out in full, and the world works along consistent, predictable rules.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#54: Oct 25th 2022 at 1:08:48 AM

Mmm...

Then what about these interpretations?

Not everyone agrees that the genre is as you describe it, and it's been that way since the page launched. Some people think there's varying philosophies at play, others see it as a way to teach rational thinking, and others don't see it as a genre so much as a style.

How do you account for these arguments if it's actually as you say it is — that people agree on the definition of what a Rational Fic is?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
NitroIndigo ♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves from West Midlands region, England Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
#55: Oct 25th 2022 at 5:54:53 AM

Since the "definition-only page that covers multiple definitions" option in the crowner is winning by a longshot, does anyone want to help me draft the description? Here's the beats I think we should cover:

  • Overview of rationalism.
  • How this can apply to storytelling.
  • Popularised by HPMOR, but existed before it.

Edited by NitroIndigo on Oct 25th 2022 at 1:55:01 PM

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#56: Oct 25th 2022 at 6:02:10 AM

I'd like to help, but uncertain if I will have time to start a sandbox for it.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
NitroIndigo ♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves from West Midlands region, England Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
#57: Oct 28th 2022 at 3:18:03 AM

It's been over three days since the crowner.

GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#58: Oct 28th 2022 at 5:19:10 AM

Indeed it has been, so calling in favor of making this definition-only.

We don't have to add more definitions if nobody has any to add right now, but the go-ahead has been given to do so in the future (possibly through the description improvement thread).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 28th 2022 at 7:21:33 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
NitroIndigo ♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves from West Midlands region, England Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
#59: Oct 28th 2022 at 7:02:52 AM

Right. How should we rewrite this? First of all, I think we should remove the trope lists.

EDIT: I've dewicked it from several works' trope lists.

Edited by NitroIndigo on Oct 28th 2022 at 3:14:08 PM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#60: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:22:53 PM

As I said, the main goal here is to remove off-page examples, and rewriting/amending the description is just an option if anyone can find any more definitions to add. If finding more definitions to add ends up being inconvenient, we can just dewick and close.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 28th 2022 at 11:23:23 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
NitroIndigo ♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves from West Midlands region, England Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
#61: Oct 28th 2022 at 10:09:12 PM

I've removed some of the gushier parts of the description; I hope that's okay.

Orbiting Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#62: Oct 28th 2022 at 10:19:28 PM

I went through the fanfics section and removed it from the pages listing it as a trope

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#63: Oct 31st 2022 at 3:55:50 PM

I pinned a to-do list in the opening post and made Sandbox.Rational Wick Cleaning to keep track of cleanup. I mentioned in the to-do list that anyone who finds other definitions to add is free to do so, but that it isn't required for the thread to close like wick cleanup, and can be done elsewhere on the forums later on (such as via the Trope Description Improvement Drive).

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#64: Oct 31st 2022 at 6:49:59 PM

Wick cleanup is done, and not much had to be done since most wicks simply reference the term anyway.

I already archived the wick check in the opening post, so locking up.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
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Trope Repair Shop: Rational Fic
24th Oct '22 7:26:38 AM

Crown Description:

What should be done with Rational Fic?

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