To-do list:
- Examples of Doing It for the Art must mention that creators openly stated that they prioritized art over profit. Do the following with the wicks (Sandbox.Wick Cleaning For The Art can be used to keep track of which namespaces have been cleaned):
- Leave examples that fit Doing It for the Art alone.
- Move examples that are gushing about production feats to SugarWiki.Development Heaven's on-page example section. Do not crosswick these examples.
- Remove any examples that do not fit either Doing It for the Art or Development Heaven.
Original post:
As clearly seen in the quote, image and the laconic description, Doing It for the Art is supposed to be about "Creators who create their work for its own sake, without regard to the profit motive." However, as this wick check shows, it is hardly used for this purpose. More often than not, it is used as an interchangeable version of Shown Their Work, except sometimes it applies to behind the scenes work as well as what happens in-story. In short, this is a gushing target, and the lack of examples that mention profit motive in any capacity means that I don't even know if a lot of people know the true definition of this one.Note: For the folders, the distinction between something being actually Shown Their Work and some other form of misuse is if the work mentions or incorporates a fact (i.e. not just something that is executed well) that is visible in the work itself without any behind-the-scenes context.
- Trivia.A Man For All Seasons: Vanessa Redgrave refused to be paid for her cameo role as Anne Boleyn.
- Trivia.A Scanner Darkly: Keanu Reeves and Winona Ryder agreed to work for the Screen Actors Guild scale rate plus any back-end profits.
- Trivia.A Single Man: Tom Ford self-financed the film version, and even had to personally ask Colin Firth to accept the part.
- Trivia.Adoseofbuckley: Buckley has cited this as one reason why he doesn't like taking requests. Before launching his Patreon, he did videos in his spare time as a hobby, and that it really irked him when people "...tell [him] to how spend [his] free time".
- Trivia.Against Me: Discussed in some songs. Grace herself is an example, saying that if the band weren't successful, she'd just busk for change in order to keep playing music.
We want a band that plays loud and hard every night
That doesn't care how many people are counted at the door
That would travel one million miles and ask for nothing more than a plate of food and a place to rest- Laura had this mentality in the past before the band became big with the same DIY approach due to her punk rock upbringing. However following discrimination from the punk community due to the same mentality of "SELL OUT!", she abandoned this, but still maintains the same view of doing music for the art.
- Trivia.Aladdin: Robin Williams signed on to the film immediately because he loved cartoons and jumped at the chance to be part of an animated film from Disney, whom he called the “Rolls Royce of animation.” He even tried to enforce this by taking a much lower salary than he could have and requiring in his contract that Disney limit the use of his performance in the marketing and not use it at all in merchandise (a rare case where it stuck was the official artbook, which features no pictures of Williams and only refers to him as "the voice of the Genie" and such). Disney, of course, had other ideas, and skirted around or blatantly ignored these requests, angering Williams and causing a rift between him and Disney for a few years. However, you can't enforce trivia.
- Trivia.Albedo Erma Felna EDF: Even if Gallacci could had become rich and famous, especially during the booming years of the independent comic book world in the 80s thanks to the success of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Usagi Yojimbo and similar ones, he decided to stick on his guns and outright refusing any opportunity to exploit his property so he could still retain the creative control of it. This is one of the few cases when this trope ended up harming him at the end, a fact the author deeply regrets.
- Trivia.Ali: Will Smith and Michael Mann both offered to put up their salaries in case the film went over-budget.
- Trivia.Ambience A Fleet Symphony: As mentioned in the chapter 200 author's notes, the author is very much aware that there's many detractors, but he's doing this as a personal journey rather than for acclaim and adoration.
- Trivia.Animal Crackers 2017: Despite the corporate sounding premise, this film is actually a passion project for director/writer/producer Scott Christian Sava. He independently made the film after studios who optioned his works ended up not adapting them into film. Much of the film was directed from his basement and he even personally painted the film's poster himself. He's also very open on the film on social media, and has personally replied to nearly all of the trailer's YouTube comments, even the ones that are not hosted on his channel.
- Trivia.Animal House: The whole reason why the movie was made. According to National Lampoon publisher Matty Simmons, who eventually co-produced the film with Ivan Reitman, he had suggested making a movie as a means of placating co-writer Douglas Kenney, who was also working at the magazine as editor-in-chief. At the time, Kenney had told Simmons that he was suffering heavily from burnout and having a hard time meeting deadlines and had decided to quit as a result. Simmons, however, did not want Kenney to leave as he was one of the most important contributors to the magazine's humor, and in trying to convince him to stay, accidentally blurted out, "We're going to make a movie."
- Trivia.Animator Vs Animation: Thrice for Alan. He explains it here.
In the beginning, when his very first flash animation was the sweep of the web, he received an email offering him $75 if he gave the sender exclusive rights to his work. Even though he and his family were struggling at the time, he ultimately turned it down thanks to a guy named Steven L. The setup for the second instance was when a site named eBaumsworld (a site where they'd post images and videos without permission) offered Alan $250 to upload his video. Then they pressured him into giving a testimonial so they could claim innocence, and upon learning that Steven felt betrayed by Alan for giving into the pressurenote , Alan decided that enough was enough. The third instance was when eBaumsworld pressured him into entering a monthly contest for $1000 if he won; he wanted to keep his rights to the work, and if he wanted it removed, he wouldn't get the money. So, after talking to Steve, he gave the site the $250 back, demanding that the site remove his testimonial and his video.
- Trivia.Another Metroid 2 Remake: This thing spent TEN YEARS in development, and during this time developer Milton Guasti refused to accept donations to work on it.
- Trivia.Anyone Can Whistle: Even though the show had closed, Columbia Records president Goddard Lieberson went ahead with recording and releasing an original cast album because he believed Sondheim's score would be Vindicated by History.
- Trivia.Armin Van Buuren: As the page quote above demonstrates, he states that his passion for the craft is his number one driving force and he cares little for the parties, drugs or money that comes with his profession.
- Trivia.A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood: The crew went out of their way to make the filmed segments of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood as close to the original series as possible, from filming in the same sound-stages at WQED in Pittsburgh, right down to using the exact same camera brand, which was so scarce that they had to be flown in from England.
- Trivia.A Boy And His Blob: The graphics in the 2009 game. Every movement of the Boy, the Blob, and the enemies is lovingly hand-drawn. The backgrounds exquisitely painted. The developers said they wanted a deliberately nostalgic, warm feel, and knew only traditional animation would get them that. And it looks awesome.
- WayForward has had a history of this, with their previous game Shantae.
- Trivia.Ace Combat 3 Electrosphere: The levels where plane controls are changed. It could've been brushed aside with an explanation, but the devs made completely different flight mechanics for single levels.
- Trivia.Act Of Valor: The fire being put down by the SWCC boats? More often than not it's live ammo.
- That truck getting blown up by an RPG? No special effects whatsoever, that was a real truck getting hit with a real RPG.
- Trivia.Age Of Empires III:
- The 4599 separate voice-acted lines for just the skirmish AI (found in Age of Empires III/Sound/Chats directory).
- The sheer number of languages spoken by the units in the game. The major civilizations account for 14 different languages, the minor Native Americans account for another 16 languages and the mercenaries account for another handful, even though only one or two units will ever speak the languages. Some of these languages, e.g. Early Modern English (British); Japanese and Mandarin (Chinese), even have different regional pronunciations when used by different units.
- Trivia.Alice In Wonderland: For the scene in which Alice grows gigantic while inside the White Rabbit's house, animators built a prop house for Kathryn Beaumont to sit in - and they sketched it for reference. As they also needed to see how Alice moved while inside the house, they then rebuilt it with transparent walls.
- Trivia.All Quiet On The Western Front: Lewis Milestone was determined for the film to be as accurate as possible, casting numerous veterans of World War I to ensure it. What's more is that this film had a budget of over $1.25 million, and was put into production only months after the Wall Street Crash of 1929 - making this a massive gamble on the part of Universal.
- Trivia.Amelie: Before shooting each scene, each on-location set was cleared of all debris, rubbish and graffiti to help convey the fantastical nature of the story. Even the train station.
- Trivia.An American Werewolf In London:
- Griffin Dunne had to endure hours in the make-up chair, especially for the "phase two" stuff. The rotting teeth were especially difficult to say his lines with. He's described the make-up as "like being eaten by bugs".
- David Naughton as well was performing half the movie fully nude, including one lengthy sequence in a zoo that ran over schedule and had actual members of the public crowding around to watch. For the transformation scene, he had to spend the day in a hole under an elevated floor after five hours of make-up application.
"I was not one of those actors who said,' OK that's it, I'm done'. I was really a team player, which means I'd stay there and keep shooting until John was happy." - Trivia.Another Eden: Another Eden doesn't emphasize Revenue-Enhancing Devices and the lack of an energy/stamina system means that you can play this game at your own leisure. Instead, there's a greater focus on the story-writing, cutscenes and character interactions. Story events are also permanently accessible, including the Persona 5 crossover. The lack of a Temporary Online Content in such stories means that there's no fear of missing out. In contrast to most gachas in the genre, Another Eden plays like a handheld port of a JRPG console game.
- Trivia.Ant Man 1:
- For a lot of the scenes where Scott is shrunk down, the background plates are actually "macro sets" painstakingly constructed down to the last detail and shot with miniature 4K cameras with the only artificial element added in post being Scott himself.
- The tank bursting through PymTech's wall was achieved through CGI. But, to make sure they made it look right, the team built a full-sized mock-up and crashed it through a wall to get an accurate reference.
- Trivia.Apocalypto: Mel Gibson specifically wanted actual buildings constructed, as opposed to relying on CGI. Extensive historical research was done on the period, with any artistic license done for the sake of cinematic beauty. Additionally, a dialect coach was on set every day to help the actors.
- Trivia.Apollo 13: The research, period detail and accuracy were highly praised by the people who had been there.
- Many of the makers, including Ron Howard, mention that part of their motivation for being so accurate was the likelihood that by the time of the next trip to the moon, most people who experienced the Apollo Program first-hand will have passed on, meaning that Apollo 13 may be the closest thing to a moon landing several generations get to see. Proof of a motive, but doesn't show any perspective related to a financial lens.
- Trivia.Area 11:
- The reason that they added in Auto-Tune to "Heaven-Piercing Giga Drill" in its 2013 singles re-release; they wanted to emulate several Japanese rock artists.
- Sparkles* admitted that even though the music video for "Heaven-Piercing Giga Drill" probably cost them more than they made back, they wanted to really make an effort for it, hence the awesome visual effects. This more implies that they're glad they made it anyways despite them not making money. They still might have wanted to make a profit from it initially.
- Trivia.Assassins Creed 2016:
- The props department went through the trouble of creating working Hidden Blades that could extend and retract on camera because they felt that it was important to be as true to the mythos and setting as possible rather than simply relying on computer animation to get the desired effect.
- There's the fact that all the sequences set in Spain are spoken entirely in Spanish (albeit mostly modern Spanish, not the ancient variation spoken at the time).
- The Leap of Faith, rather than being done with CGI, was done for real by Michael Fassbender's stunt double Damien Walters, specifically to avoid Special Effect Failure. At 125 feet, it's one of the longest freefalls ever done by a stuntman.
- Trivia.A Brides Story: Aside from the Costume Porn, many things are also incredibly detailed. Chapter 2 is mostly devoted to showcasing Mori's painstakingly-drawn rendition of traditional carvings.
- Trivia.A Man Of Iron: For chapter 41 of A Crack of Thunder, Mr. Chaos went through the testimonials of real life rapists to get an understanding of how the rapists would act when they attempted to assault Jane. He states that it was very disturbing to read, and that Thor's brutal massacre of them was much needed catharsis for him.
- Trivia.A Countess From Hong Kong: Marlon Brando and Sophia Loren did it to work with Charlie Chaplin without seeing the script.
- Trivia.American Psycho: Everyone told Christian Bale not to do the film, saying that it would be career suicide. He actively campaigned for the role even after he had been passed over for Leonardo Dicaprio.
- Trivia.Anomalisa:
- Co-director Duke Johnson spent six months animating Michael and Lisa's sex scene to ensure that it would be as believable and non-comedic as possible. While not everyone was impressed, some critics went as far as to call it the most emotionally moving sex scene of any movie in 2015.
- A lot of the people who were working on the project did solely because they wanted to work with Charlie Kaufman, and lots of them even worked Overtime just to see the movie get made. Second bullet point is this, first has no proof of motive.
- Trivia.Across The Universe 2007: The homage to The Beatles was more important than the plot, hence a few songs and sequences that technically didn't advance the story at all.
- Trivia.Alice In Chains: As mentioned here. Weblinks Are Not Examples
- Trivia.Almas Way: Fred Rogers Productions had Pipeline Studios animators visit the Bronx to get a feel for the setting they would recreate in cartoon form.
- Trivia.American Beauty: Kevin Spacey, Annette Bening and Conrad L. Hall worked for significantly less than their usual rates. More context is needed to why they chose those rates, as it is not a voluntarily worded as some other examples are.
- Trivia.Amesoeurs: The band, especially Fursy were dedicated to making the debut album look like a masterpiece, and is actually the reason why the band got together despite Neige and Audrey's argument.
- Case and point, Fursy later on began to sell a poster version of the album cover, with his and Negie's signatures on it.
- Trivia.Amiga Power: Hidden ZCE
- Trivia.Amoridere: She writes and draws mostly for her own enjoyment.
- Trivia.Anomalies: The story pretty much exists solely for the purpose of showcasing the ridiculously thorough physics system behind the abilities of the characters.
- Trivia.AI Artificial Intelligence: Jude Law worked with a choreographer for months to nail down Gigolo Joe's dancing and general mannerisms. This part is misuse.
- Spielberg went through with Kubrick's idea for the ending knowing full well he would be Misblamed for it, since it was sappier than Kubrick's usual fare. All because Kubrick was his friend and Spielberg wanted to keep his vision alive. This part isn't.
- Trivia.Abduction: Taylor Lautner did all of his own stunts. He learned how to fight, ride motorcycles and everything. Double-listed with No Stunt Double, where it actually belongs.
- Trivia.Adam Warrock: Doing It for the Art/Money, Dear Boy - Essentially the conflict of The War For Infinity. Demonos represents the commercialized "money, cars, and bitches" side of rap, while Adam represents the more sincere "doing it for the love of music" side. Correct usage, but should be listed in the work page as an in-universe example.
- Trivia.Adventures From The Book Of Virtues: Despite having the series air on PBS prime time, series conceiver William Bennett had a strong hatred towards PBS because he felt the network raises money from the government. This is apparently the main reason why he decided the series won't be funded through federal money, but instead it will be funded through sales of an interactive CD-ROM series, home videos, and a series of books. This seems like some sort of conflict that I can't think of right now that is another trivia item.
- Trivia.Angels Egg: Oshii admits that because this film bombed at the box office, he couldn't get any animation work for the next four years until he revived his career with Patlabor. Double-listed with Creator Killer, where it actually belongs.
- Trivia.Aquamarine: Sara Paxton threw herself into preparation for the role, taking a month of intensive swimming lessons and living off sardines (feeling that as a mermaid, that would be what Aquamarine lives off). It would take four hours for hair and make-up to be done whenever she had to be in the tail, which weighed about 100 lbs, and she had to be carried in a stretcher while wearing it. Achieving that Godiva Hair effect was not easy either; many takes had to be redone with the hair glued in place. Actually Dyeing for Your Art.
- Trivia.Are You Afraid Of The Dark: "The Tale of the Pinball Wizard" was so hard to film, creator DJ McHale had to beg the crew to break union rules and work for an extra day to get it finished. More of the element of a Troubled Production
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 17th 2022 at 7:59:29 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Opened.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
It needs either just a cleanup for the misuse and reviewing the description since the misuse doesn't even remotely match the trope, or expansion and/or move to SugarWiki to praise creators about great work under Troubled Production in the tone of Visual Effects of Awesome.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Expansion might be viable just for the sheer amount of a specific type of misuse, but I still think that "creating something against profit motive" is still a distinct idea on its own.
In terms of the misuse, despite again its application being very specific, the examples themselves are so broad that I can't think they would all fit into a specific trivia item. Some of them do, such as the examples that are actually Awesome, Dear Boy or Dyeing for Your Art, but a lot of them just amount to "behind the scenes feats I think are cool".
I do actually think a Sugar Wiki page that takes all the misuse that doesn't fit anywhere else might be a good idea. The two questions would be from there are 1. Do we or do we not forbid examples on the trivia pages of works and instead confine it in the Sugar Wiki page itself to prevent too excessive gushing and 2. what do we call it? My gut instinct was SugarWiki.No Trouble With Production, but many misuse examples do still have troubled productions, and I think we should have a specific definition that doesn't make it redundant with Visual Effects of Awesome, especially since one is trivia and the other is YMMV (unless the new page is YMMV? I don't even know right now).
Edited by prettycoolguy on Jan 13th 2022 at 9:34:13 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I think No Trouble With Production sounds fine for a Sugar Wiki page, since it's a play on Troubled Production in the same way No Problem with Licensed Games (itself a Sugar Wiki page) is a play on The Problem with Licensed Games.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 13th 2022 at 4:33:38 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I'm fine with that. I was trying to think of better names for it because it isn't exactly the opposite of Troubled Production as mentioned and it is technically a snowclone, but I think it has a better ring to it than, say, Awesome Production Feats or something. Again, it being a Sugar Wiki item might mean that this could be YMMV, which is weird for something based in trivia, but considering it is gushing about trivia, it might suffice.
Edit: Also, I looked at DoingItForTheArt.Animated Films because I was mostly focused on wick misuse, but oh my god over half of these examples are blatant misuse. If the other subpages are similar, I wouldn't be surprised if a couple were cut due to reduced length. I do want to cut it down, but I'm gonna wait until we figure out what to do with the misuse.
Edited by prettycoolguy on Jan 14th 2022 at 9:30:42 AM
the Retromancer
Reminds me of Genius Programming
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
If we made new pages to catch misuse (like the aforementioned No Trouble With Production), would we be leaving Doing It for the Art the same, aside from cleaning up misuse? I've been wondering that, but neglected to ask.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 14th 2022 at 12:35:38 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
What would be the difference between the two?
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I was under the impression that we'd keep Doing It for the Art defined as applying to creators doing their jobs for fun instead of profit, and that No Trouble With Production was for creators not minding working on Troubled Productions. I could see the two overlapping, but Doing It for the Art doesn't always involved a Troubled Production, and creators who don't mind working on troubled productions could still be doing the job to get paid.
Edit: And Awesome Production Feats would cover the examples listed in the "Ignores proof of motive" folder.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 14th 2022 at 7:15:56 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Is fun the right word? Would a starving artist prioritizing creating art over making money by doing something else not count?
the Retromancer
Any other ideas?
- Expand to cover misuse
- Rename
- Move to SugarWiki
- Move to YMMV
Plakis Morakis
Clean up (and rename?) while creating new YMMV/Sugar Wiki page may also be a viable option.
Welcome to Ideal's World
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, I think keeping the trivia with the original definition is important, considering how prevalent it is not only in art, but also through In-Universe examples as well.
A Sugar Wiki split for Awesome Production Feats seems like the best option to clear out misuse. Making it YMMV will make gushing permissible in those cases.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I think the previously listed options sound fine. I'd like to note that making YMMV and moving to Sugar Wiki wouldn't be mutually exclusive.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Angry babby
I agree with keeping the original definition, but splitting off the misuse. Though maybe we should restrict the original trope to be for artists who openly say that they're interested in their art more than profit, rather than just allow any sort of speculation on their motives.
Edited by mightymewtron on Jan 20th 2022 at 4:51:29 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
the Retromancer
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Trivia can't be inverted.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Are these our options?
- Expand to cover misuse (mutually exclusive with keeping the definition the same and splitting off misuse)
- Rename Doing It for the Art (not mutually exclusive with any other option)
- Move to Sugar Wiki (mutually exclusive with keeping the definition the same, regardless of whether misuse is split off)
- Move to YMMV (not mutually exclusive with any other option)
- Keep Doing It for the Art's definition the same, but don't split off misuse (mutually exclusive with expanding to cover misuse)
- Keep Doing It for the Art's definition the same, but split off a Sugar Wiki YMMV page to cover misuse (name would be decided with anothe crowner; mutually exclusive with expanding to cover misuse)
- If Doing It for the Art's definition is kept the same, require examples to mention that creators openly stated that they prioritized art over profit (mutually exclusive with expanding to cover misuse)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 21st 2022 at 9:56:55 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I think this is Trivia and I am not sure how you would broaden it. It seems like the misuse is quite diverse, not something you can box into a single trope.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I revised the option list to making moving it to YMMV separate from the definition-related options. As for expanding to cover misuse, it would mean allowing the examples listed in the "Ignores proof of motive" folder, since the examples in the "Other/Unsorted" folder are either examples of something else or are in-universe examples.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 20th 2022 at 5:00:06 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
If the Sugar Wiki misuse option passes, perhaps we should do a separate crowner for the name, unless we all agree one is the best suited option beforehand. So far we have No Trouble With Production and Awesome Production Feats, but other suggestions are welcome.
Also I absolutely agree in putting in definitive proof. I think a large part of why the "ignores proof of motive" misuse is so common is that I think some people see these behind-the-scenes facts and instantly assume they are going above and beyond for their passion alone, even though, for many of these people, a paycheck is still involved. Spelling out crystal clear that examples must state their intentions would help out a ton.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I added No Trouble With Production alongside Awesome Production Feats.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Double posting because I edited the Sugar Wiki option because I misread previous posts regarding it. Do the options look ready to go now?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 21st 2022 at 9:58:17 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Look good to me.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to spin misuse of Doing It For The Art into a new Sugar Wiki YMMV page. What should its name be?
To-do list:
Original post:
As clearly seen in the quote, image and the laconic description, Doing It for the Art is supposed to be about "Creators who create their work for its own sake, without regard to the profit motive." However, as this wick check shows, it is hardly used for this purpose. More often than not, it is used as an interchangeable version of Shown Their Work, except sometimes it applies to behind the scenes work as well as what happens in-story. In short, this is a gushing target, and the lack of examples that mention profit motive in any capacity means that I don't even know if a lot of people know the true definition of this one.Note: For the folders, the distinction between something being actually Shown Their Work and some other form of misuse is if the work mentions or incorporates a fact (i.e. not just something that is executed well) that is visible in the work itself without any behind-the-scenes context.
That doesn't care how many people are counted at the door
That would travel one million miles and ask for nothing more than a plate of food and a place to rest
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 17th 2022 at 7:59:29 AM