During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
@Lightysnake: So you intend to EP Sima Yi from Romance of the Three Kingdoms? Do you also intend to EP Sima Yi from Dynasty Warriors? (hopefully soon)
If I do ROTK? Probably not Dynasty Warriors
Shin Megami Tensei IV
- Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg: Huey Long—also known as The Kingfish—is a populist from Louisiana who despises syndicalists while also desiring to save the American economy with his "Share the Wealth" program, which he perceives as America's only defense against Syndicalism. Popular in the American South due to his bombastic style, Long allies with far right racist groups in order to create a anti-syndicalist power block in the form of the America First Party despite his relatively tolerant views for his time, being so charismatic that his death would mean its dissolution. When the Second American Civil War starts, as either him rebelling against the democratically elected syndicalist Reed viceversa or due to Douglas MacArthur's military coup, Long serves as the face of the American Union State. If the AUS wins, Long declares himself President for Life and purges his most despicable allies, while allowing his Minutemen to harass Syndicalists. Despite being a dictator struggling between his own altruism and his growing authoritarianism, Long's charisma and relative benevolence made him stand out from most dictators.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Mar 10th 2019 at 1:38:26 PM
Watch me destroying my country
On second thought, abstain Huey Long. I'm gonna have to contest Long for MB and Pelley for CM due to the player character status of both characters and the lack of railroadness.
Edited by xie323 on Mar 9th 2019 at 6:04:33 AM
Handsome Head of Hyperion
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Wil Wheaton and Huey Long.
Is there any chance Woo-jin from Oldboy could count, or is what he manipulates Dae-su and Mi-do into doing far too depraved?
I thought about him a while back but I find tricking someone into having sex with someone they didn't know was a family member is a bit too close to rape for me to be okay with. Comes close but I'm a no.
His plan IMO? Too awful and squicky
Also, batch:
- Blaster Knuckle: Alex MacGregor is The Rival of Victor "Bloody Rain" Freeman. Raised in the beast-slaying organization Silven Kreuz, Alex befriends Victor during his time in the organization. Becoming a feared and cunning Bounty Hunter while remaining part of Silven Kreuz, Alex enjoys hunting both beasts and human criminals. Joining a police hunt of Victor while knowing that he isn't a murderer, Alex befriends a young Bounty Hunter and tries to convince him to return to his old life and has a duel against Victor that ends in a harsh tie with both injured. Later, Alex manages to survive unscratched by the traps of the beasts in the town of White Rock Valley and kill his attackers. Enraged at the death of his friend, Alex joins forces with Victor to kill as many beasts as they can. Killing the beast leader personally by using his own power against him, Alex reminds the good times and allows Victor to go away, warning him about other members of Silven Kreuz and showing why he's both Victor's enemy and friend.
- Digimon Xros Wars:
- Bagramon is the leader of the Bagra Army. Brother of the "dark" digimon SkullKnightmon, Bagramon used to be a angel digimon working for the digital deity Homeostasis. Rebelling against Homeostasis because of her plan to have digimon branded as heroic or villainous, in a system that would result in his brother's death, Bagramon is defeated and exiled. Finding the remains of the digital deity Ygdrassil, Bagramon uses them to empower himself and begin his conquest, creating the Xros Loader and the powerful artificial Digimon Tactimon. He then rebels again with the loyalty of dark digimons, defeating the Royal Knights and breaking the digital world. Manipulating his brother using two minions and some humans, Bragramon intends to judge humans and digimons based on who wins between them. When his brother "wins" while losing his sanity, Bagramon cries for him before using him to recreate Zeed Milleniunmon, intending to use it to euthanize both the digital and human worlds and save them from decay. When he is proven wrong by the heroes, Bagramon cheers for them and dies saving his brother, encouraging him to be better. Inspiring loyalty in his followers, Bagramon truly wishes for a better future.
- More honorable than his anime counterpart, The Dreaded Tactimon is one of Bagramon's top generals and his best creation. Leading his armies in the fractured Digital World, Bagramon is the digimon that broke it during his fight against the powerful Royal Knight Omegamon. A ruthless yet effective general willing to fire against his own soldiers in harsh fights, Bagramon also prefers to not waste their lives in pointless battles. Manipulating Mach Leomon to his death to test the power of his rivals, Tactimon follows the heroes to test their power as well. During the final battle of the Bagra Army, Tactimon asks permission to use his full power and challenge the heroes in a harsh fight, showing his impressive unmatched skill and only being defeated by their determination and teamwork. Lethally wounded, congratulates them, happy at having find worthy opponents.
- Godzilla: The Planet Eater: Metphies is an Exif who serves as the archbishop of their religion. Using his status as a colonel of the United Earth Military to convert numerous people on board the Aratum into his religion, he would mold one of them, Haruo Sakaki, into his own personal weapon against Godzilla by exploiting Haruo’s hatred for the beast. Leaking Haruo information about Godzilla he would send him and a squadron down to Earth to kill the beast, before convincing Haruo to turn against Mulu-elu Galu-gu, when the latter’s plans to assimilated all of Earth with Mechagodzilla’s nanometal interferes with Metphies' own plans for the planent. After saving Earth from Mulu-elu and Mechagodzilla, Metphies would persuade The Houta into helping his cause, having them unknowingly summon King Ghidora to the planet. When Haruo and Miana learns of Metphies intentions to sacrifice Earth to Ghidora, Metphies subjects them to mind breaking visions and hallucinations to prevent them from stopping him. Only losing to Mothra’s sudden intervention, Metphies proves that with his intellect and charisma alone he can become a threat on par with the King of Monsters.
- The Big Bang Theory: Wil Wheaton is a Hollywood actor and Sheldon Cooper’s mortal enemy who constantly finds ways to outwit the Insufferable Genius. Learning that Sheldon hates him for not showing up at the '95 Dixie Trek Convention Sheldon attended, Wil uses this information to persuade Sheldon into letting him win a card game by lying that he had to attend his grandmother's funeral. Competing with Sheldon Cooper again in a bowling match he convinces Penny to break up with Leonard, dismantling Sheldon's bowling team and leaving Wil victorious once more. When Wil notices Seldon and his friends trying to steal the film reel of Raiders of the Lost Ark, he rallies an army of movie goers to chase them down. Eventually deciding to make peace with Sheldon, Wil gives Sheldon a signed and mint condition Wesley Crusher action figure, immediately earning Sheldon's forgiveness, and making Wil Wheaton the only character to go from Sheldon's enemy to his friend.
- Brooklyn Nine-Nine:
- Doug Judy is the Pontiac Bandit, an affable car thief known for stealing 200 cars. Making himself known to Jake Peralta by pretending to be an informant, Doug sends Jake on a wild goose chase to the barber Doug framed, while he slips past him unnoticed. When Doug unexpectedly encounters Jake, he gives him the drug manufacturer of giggle pig in exchange for a four-star hotel suite where he collaborates with the suite's waiter on his escape, with Jake being too busy capturing the manufacturer. When Doug learns of a hitman trying to kill him he contacts Jake for help, making sure to meet Jake on a cruise ship, where Jake has no jurisdiction, while escaping said ship once Jake catches the hitman. When Jake needs Doug’s help to capture his adopted brother, Doug uses this opportunity to get immunity on all 600 crimes he committed in return for his assistance. Getting Jake’s attention again by holding hostages, Doug gets Jake involved in a plan to rescue his mother from a drug lord, before escaping from Jake once more. Always being Jake’s most elusive adversary, Doug Judy’s master planning was only matched by his unlimited charm.
- Trudy Judy is the younger sister of Doug Judy. Turning to crimes for the fun of it, Trudy eventually discovers Doug's old notebooks, and decides to follow his footsteps as a car thief. After being caught, Trudy takes advantage of her brother offering to capture an Arms Dealer she stole a Ferrari from in exchange for Trudy's charges being reduced. Having an employee of hers act as if he bought the stolen car, Trudy manipulates Doug into arguing with Terry, distracting them from noticing that her employee placed a bomb in the Ferrari. She later sets off the bomb when the car is being delivered, and uses the chaos to sneak away without facing any charges. With an attitude as playful as her brother's, Trudy earns the distinction of being the first person to outwit Doug Judy.
- Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg: Huey Long—also known as The Kingfish—is a populist from Louisiana who despises syndicalists while also desiring to save the American economy with his "Share the Wealth" program, which he perceives as America's only defense against Syndicalism. Popular in the American South due to his bombastic style, Long allies with far right racist groups in order to create a anti-syndicalist power block in the form of the America First Party despite his relatively tolerant views for his time, being so charismatic that his death would mean its dissolution. When the Second American Civil War starts, as either him rebelling against the democratically elected syndicalist Reed viceversa or due to Douglas MacArthur's military coup, Long serves as the face of the American Union State. If the AUS wins, Long declares himself President for Life and purges his most despicable allies, comma while allowing his Minutemen to harass Syndicalists. Despite being a dictator struggling between his own altruism and his growing authoritarianism, Long's charisma and relative benevolence made him stand out from most dictators.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
done
Edited by 43110 on Mar 10th 2019 at 6:51:31 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Can you add action figure under Wil Wheaton’s entry after Weasley Crusher?
Metphies' entry has a number of grammatical errors and a few wrong details. Would it be OK to fix those?
Damn, I still haven't got Art Teacher's writeup done yet.
@ Arawn, Go ahead, that was probably my fault... I think I forgot to really look that one over.
Ok so Arawn made some changes to Metphies write-up (Which I'm completely fine with) so here it is
- Godzilla: The Planet Eater: Metphies is an Exif who serves as the archbishop of their religion. Using his status as a colonel of the United Earth Military to convert numerous people on board the Aratum into his religion, he would mold one of them, Haruo Sakaki, into his own personal weapon against Godzilla by exploiting Haruo’s hatred for the beast. Leaking Haruo information about Godzilla, he sent him and a squadron down to Earth to kill the beast, before convincing Haruo to turn against Mulu-elu Galu-gu when the latter’s plans to assimilate the Earth with Mechagodzilla’s nanometal interferes with Metphies' own plans for the planet. After saving Earth from Mulu-elu and Mechagodzilla, Metphies persuades many of the survivors into helping his cause, having them summon Ghidorah — an Eldritch Abomination that destroyed the Exif homeworld — to the planet by telling them it could destroy Godzilla. When Haruo and Miana learn of Metphies' intentions to sacrifice Earth to Ghidorah, Metphies subjects them to mind breaking visions and hallucinations to prevent them from stopping him. Only losing to Mothra’s sudden intervention and Haruo gaining the determination to resist him, Metphies proves that with his intellect and charisma alone he can become a threat on par with the King of Monsters.
Do you mind replacing the old one with this 43110?
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 10th 2019 at 5:14:25 AM
Sure. Edit: I just replaced it with whatever was done in the drafts but it looked like Arwan made some edits prior to that on the YMMV page. Can you put whichever version you want in the drafts and I'll just run it tomorrow?
Edited by 43110 on Mar 10th 2019 at 11:45:02 AM
Ah... I was curious why my edit got reverted.
Edited by Arawn999 on Mar 10th 2019 at 8:56:47 AM
I run whatever's in the drafts, if you'd like your version put back, please put it there.
The Draftsman of Doom
I may not have seen Primal Fear, but, considering that regardless of whether he was coerced into doing it, Roy/Aaron still commited rape on the Priest’s behalf, I feel like he should be cut from the YMMV for now. Also, I find his lack of empathy for a fellow molestation victim (his own girlfriend, no less) to be anything but charismatic.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 11th 2019 at 1:21:11 PM
Rawr.
Lizzid people!
Well...removing that from my To Do list then.
@ Kazuya, Can you double check what I've got on your to do for writeups? Ngl, lost track of what's been entered and what I'm waiting on aha
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
For a little History, I'm almost done with Palpatines EP. I just need to Finish the "What does he do?" Section. Looking through Google Docs I found My Roman Torchwick "What does he do?" Section for his EP was hald finished, and that I already wrote Salems "What does she do?" Section for her CM EP I eventually gave up on. I figured if I was going to Procrastinate, I might as well do procrastinating while doing something Productive And of Course, I want to know how good I am at doing E Ps like this or what I need to improve on.
Alright. Here we go with my first ever Proposal here.
'What's the work?'RWBY is an Anime Esqe Takes place in a Science Fantasy world Called remnant. A girl named Ruby Rose is accepted into Beacon Academy, where she learns to fight monsters. While there she meets friends Who end up becoming her team and is made the leader of the titular Team RWBY.
.'Who's the the candidate? What does he do?'
Going to condense this to avoid being too long.
Roman Torchwick. One of Cinders minions and and The Heavy of the first two seasons, before Cinder Was Revealed as the True Arc Villain of the beacon arc. He was a Con Man and Master Thief before being Recruited by Cinder.
He's Interoduced Robbing a Dust Shop before Ruby Rose beats his monions up, He snarks about there Incompetence before Evading Ruby and The Huntress Glynda. Escaping them both.
Later, he appears with Servral Soldiers in the White Fang Revolution, having Made an alliance with them, robbing a Schnee Dust company Factory. When the pair Blake and Sun Interrupted the event He fought and almost Beat the two before Ruby arrived. He attacked Ruby til the Robotic Battle girl Penny Polendias attack on the Robbery Rendred it a Failure.
Later he's Told by Cinder to Move the Dust to a New Location, and to find New Recruits to help with the Operation.
Surely enough he Goes to a Large White Fang Rally with Several New Recruits, They initially boo him thanks to the fact he was a Human, but he then gives a speech, using his status as a criminal to Claim he and the Whte Fang had a Common foe in the Remant kingdoms. And reveals his Operation had Stolen several Atlesean Paladin Mechas, this Causes the White Fang members to cheer and Sign up to help with The Operation. He is Able to tell Blake and Sun in disguise in the Crowd, they notice and try to leave, resulting in Torchwick Piloting one of the Paladins and chasing the Duo across town. Where Team RWBY eventually found them, After an awesome fight Roman is Able to escape with his Associate Neo.
And After that, toward the end of Volume 2 Roman is Revealed to have Moved the Dust to Mount Glenn and had it Loaded onto several Trains. The plan? After Cinder Sabotages the upcoming Tournament, To use the Trains to go Across The City and use the Dust to cause several Explosions, the Negative emotions that was caused would cause a Large Grimm Attack. When Ruby falls into the Mountain, with Team RWBY not far behind he Instead decides to Start the Attack prematurely, the goal of THAT being to eventually get Caught and arrested….But becuase he was part of a mass terrorist Attack, instead of going to Prison he'd go to an Atlesean Airship for Questioning on who else was Involved, knowing that Cinder would allow Neo to break him out and Together they kill the Ships crew before using the Airship to Destroy the Resistance agasint the Grimm Attack. Unfortunately Ruby Rose is able to get to That Airship And he and Neo fight Ruby. He Explains his motives for assisting Cinder.. However Ruby is Able to send Neo flying off the Ship And Fights Roman, Unfortunately while Torchwick almost won the fight The amount of Negativity he felt Attracted a Grimm Wich finally and Abruptly finished him off.
'Intelligent? Charming?'
For Intelligence? Despite being a Minion he is very Capable of making his own Good moves. Such as planning Robberies across all of Vale avoiding the Authorities. And one of his stand out Moments was Where he Manipulated the White Fang Members into joining him, Despite being human. Where he used his Sheer Charisma and Wit and skills as The Social Expert to Have them go from Booing to Applauding. And he was able to Spot Blake and Sun in the Crowd despite them being both wearing Masks, and being in a large Crowd of people with similar masks.
As for Charm? Ohohoh yes. He's exceptionally Eccentric(At one point in the Atlesian Airship during the fall of beacon, he dances around pushing Buttons that send Bombs to the Ground below Jokingly asking“Oh what does this one do?”), and almost Always has a Witty Remark For any Situation (For Example When his men were Beaten by Ruby “Oh you were worth every penny weren't you?”)
'Bastard? Too much?'
Now Contrary to what Some fans would like to say? Roman is an Evil, 'EVIL' Bastard He has a thing for Blowing Stuff up, Is willing to kill Teenagers and uh….oh right. Tries to Instigate a City wide Terrorist Attack to SET THE STAGE For the evil plot to cause a Monster Invasion.
But while he's clearly having fun? he never reaches The Overly Sadistic or Cruel levels people like Durian do. And he dosent quite do anything Personally Reprehensible like Cinder or Adam.. Yes he almost kills Teenagers, superpowered teenagers after they become a Threat.
He also isn't pure evil, as his Relationship with his Henchgirl neo is a sort of Mix of Parental Substiture and Like Brother and Sister
I did notice some...but I think I can make an Argument for them. I'll go with Most possibly Mitigating to Least Possibly Mitigating.
1.His Death and letting his Temper get the better of it right before it, I thought this would be a Problem til I Analyzed. Roman Would have Actually won the fight with Ruby if it weren't for his Negativity...and Given He just watched his Daughter/Little sister figure get flown off about airship? I'd say getting Stressed was pretty justified.
2.He makes some Remarks showing a Fantastic Racism toward Faunas...But this is(as the Creators themselves said) not used to Make him Hateable, rather to show that this was the Common view of the Faunas in Remnant. And he's DEFINITELY no Supremacist. As he really doesn't see other Humans as better, and in fact is willing to help the Faunas Overthrow the kingdom's.
3.Some have said he was Under Cinders thumb...but here's the thing, while He's technically being Forced to work for her...he doesn't really care about the Job itself. In fact seems to have fun with it, And it's never taken to the Point of Outright Cowardice Ala Leonardo Lionheart as much as it is Simple Common sense. As He says “I may be a betting man, but even I know there some bets you just, don't take” so I view it as a case of him Knowing his limits, Which shows He's no Smug Snake
'The competition?'
His boss Cinder is Clever but she's still a Extremely Sadistic Smug Snake. And of course. Two scenes shows a Difference between them. Roman was Able to give a Speech utilzing Charisma and Manipulation Skills to get the White Fang members to join with him. Whereas Cinder asked the White Fang to help, was told to get out before Adam killed her, and Had to come back after she Absorbed some of the Fall Maidens power to Coerce them into Joining.
And for the other Candidate.
'Who is Salem?'
The Big Bad of the show. At first her life was like a fairy tale. She was locked in a tower by her father but one day She was rescued from her castle her dad put her in by the hero Ozma….Then one say he fell ill and died. She asked the God of light to revive him. The God felt sympathy for her but still rejected her request as it would break the balance, saying he was sorry. She didn't take no for an answer and proceeded manipulate the god of darkness into bringing him back. Initially successful the God of light soon arrived and explained things to his brother. He then undid the spell sending Ozma back to the land of the dead. The God of light dropped all sympathy for Salem. The gods made her immortal saying they'd undo the curse when she learned the importance of life and death. Instead of learning that lesson she used her immortality to manipulate humanity into rebelling against the gods. When this Fails the gods wiped out the world with her being the last one there. As humanity, thanks to Salem manipulating them had proven a failed experiment(They'd later recreate humans) she wandered across the world continuing to blame everyone else for what happened be it the gods or humanity. She found the pit of darkness and Thought it would end her life….it didn't. And she instead became a being half creation half destruction, gaining control of the Grimm. Once humans were reborn she used the Grimm to terrorize them. This caused the gods to Resurrect Ozma so that he could go and fight Salem. Instead Ozma tried to talk with her, and they did end up reuniting. She talked about how humanity needed “Guidance” and asked Ozma to join her in giving it to them. He begrudgingly accepted. They proceeded to build an empire and eventually had 4 children, everything was going great till Ozma questioned if they were doing the right thing, as there were being wars fought for them. Salem justified it by saying they “Needed to spread their message”. Ozma reveals that the God of light was the reason he was resurrected and his mission and begged Salem to stop all of this. She rejected him and asked “Why do you want to protect these humans when we can replace them with what they could never be?”. Seeing that She would never change later that night Ozma tried to sneak out of the house with the kids. Salem caught them and, enraged attacked Ozma. The ensuing battle resulting in the deaths of their children, Salem then burns her ex lover alive. Sending him into his next incarnation.
Years later she'd continue to terrorize humanity for the millenia to come, killing the silver eyed warriors that The God of light made to fend off the Grimm. Eventually she had her apprentice Cinder fall go out and planned the Fall of Beacon, a school designed to train huntsman and huntress to fight the Grimm. As well as to kill Ozpin(Ozma’s most recent incarnation) and gave Cinder gain the powers of the fall maiden. She succeeds and Beacon collapses. She trains Cinder later and Plans the Fall of another location Vale. Exploiting the cowardice of one Leonardo Lionheart to find and have several huntsman killed as well as setting the stage for the fall of Vale. It fails thanks to her Minions incompetence and she has Lionheart killed once he outlived his usefulness.
When the remaining forces get Back Salem says that Cinder wouldn't be allowed to return until she “Redeemed herself”. When Salem hears that Ozpin was reincarnated already she Shows a great deal of Anger. And decides to, in her Minion Hazels words “If you want something done right, do it yourself” . And then created an army of Flying monkey Grimm(Subtlerooster teeth, Subtle). And headed to Atlas where Oscar and team RWBY were.
'Intelligent, Manipulative? Charming?'
She's able to Plot the Fall of beacon, causing a great deal of Negativity thus Making them More Vulnerable to the Negativity eating Grimm. As well as make Tensions between the Kingdoms Arise. She also planned and likely would have Succeeded in causing the Fall of Haven Academy if it weren't for her Minions incompetence. She's also Able to Play several people's Desires, Hazels Fury at Ozpin for being responsible for his Sister's death, Cinders Lust for Power, and Adams Fanaticism to Have them in her Pocket.
As for Charm she Acts like a Benevolent Boss to Her minions, and Gives legitimately helpful Advice or Wisdom, It's a Facade, but it's a very good Facade. And she's also very Sophisticated, as shown in her Speeches and in her Narrations(Particularly World of Remnant)
'Bastard? Too much?'
She's Murdered Millions upon Millions of People by setting the Grimm upon them, Plans and Executes Terrorist Attacks, and her end Goal is to create a World wide Dictatorship where she's worshipped as a goddess, Definite Bastard.
That said? She is never outright Sadistic, she also never does anything that doesn't benefit her in some way, instead being an extremely Pragmatic Figure. Also, while I don't think her redeeming Qualities hold up, she's an Extremely complex and interesting character with or without them. She grew up locked up by her dad and wanted “freedom” from the Gods out of an Obsession with being Free. And, in fairness they WERE, to a Degree Jerkass Gods, so while she became 10 times worse then they ever were she still had something of a Point.
'Mitigating Qualities?'
Her Angry Attitude Toward her Minions in Volume 6 was an Intimidation Tactic rather then Freaking out over her Plans not going as she planned, and her rageful reaction After hearing Ozpin was still Alive was Largely Because of her Personal Hatred of Ozpin because of him “Betraying” her when they Finally had Freedom.
Initially I was worried about her Never My Fault attitude toward the Gods giving her Immortality as a Curse, while tragic still might have been a bit too Immature(Like Killmonger for Example) initially I wrote off her Caltive schemes as one, long, extremely Well Crafted temper Tantrum.Especially as Light and Darkness outright gave her a way out of it Wich she ignored. But...While She still may Harbor Never My Fault toward The gods for her suffering? She really doesn't seem to care about the original reasons, let alone throwing a big tantrum on it, in fact she seems to have Embraced her Immortality, even rejecting a Chance to go back with Ozma instead wanting to Rule the kingdom she and Ozma built, asking why He defended Humanity Instead of Helping her replace it with there Version of it, so her goals have long since moved on sense them.
And Finally,in Volume 6 Salem is Revealed to be Unkillable Which May give her an Unfair Advantage... However Ozma's Army of Huntsman and Huntress he eventually built were Able to Make it so they were at Stalemate. And Salem used her intelligence and Manipulations to Tip the Game in her Favor.
'Final Verdict?'
I could see Counterarguments. But overall I'm glad I E Ped them. There both Charming in Different ways(Roman As the Eccentric Manipulator and Salem as the Sophisticated Chessmaster) So I thogut I'd do this
Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 12th 2019 at 12:31:23 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Abstain on RWBY examples. I have just recently got into the show so can't really vote as of right now.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
So I said I am still gonna contest Huey Long as MB even through I have changed my mind on Pelley as a CM.
I acually considered doing an EP for Long once as an MB, and actually got most of the EP done but I decided not to when considering the issue with him and recinded the EP.
Here's the issue with Huey Long. The player character rule is much more of an issue with Huey Long in contrast to Pelley as a CM. He only qualifies as magnificent bastard in one specific route, which is the one where he gets everything he wants. To get that route, the player must decide, after defeating the socialists and the federal government, to place Moseley, Pelley or Huey Long's own protegee as his second in ommand, this being despite the fact that both Pelley and the oligarchs want Huey Long's head for his left leaning populist reforms. If either Pelley or Moseley are appointed second in command, then they kill Long and take control for themselves or the oligarchs respectively. It's only if Huey Long pus his own protegee in charge that he comes out on top. It could be thus seen that in at least two routes, Huey Long chooses to work with his rivals, but underestimates the depravity and ambition of the other factions and pays for it with his life. Because he gets outwitted in the two The Bad Guy Wins routes for the American Union State, I'm gonna have to disagree with Huey Long being seen as a MB.
Unlike the incarnation of Bernie Sanders from Red World(whom I have yet to do a write up for), much of of whose MB actions are railroaded and is defeated by just being thwarted by other forces that play against him and outwit his plans after exposing them, a lot of Huey Long's actions in outwitting his viler enemies on the right are way too player determinant.
Oh, side note, given that we just upvoted Will Wheaton of all people, Bernie is probably gonna be our second fictional portrayal of a still living and relevant real life figure for this trope(well he would be the first but I have yet to do the writeup even through he was upvoted).
Movin away from the HOI 4 multiverse, there's also another MB I'd like to contest: General Shepard from Modern Warfare 2.
While not a CM like Markarov, and he fits the qualifications for MB at face value. I feel he's too much of a Hate Sink to qualify. I remember everyone hating on Shepard for his really infamous Moral Event Horizon crossing and cheering HARD when he died when I was younger. Unless his reputation changed for the better with replays and reevaluation of his characterization, I think he lacks the admirable qualities necessary for this trope if everyone's impression to him was "Die bastard, this is for Ghost and Roach and Alan!"
Edited by xie323 on Mar 12th 2019 at 12:03:21 PM
For Bullman's sake, my post contains spoilers for people who have not watched any of the show.
In short:
- Roman: definitely not.
- Salem: no, for now — however, keep her on a watch list and revisit at a later date.
In detail:
Roman is not carrying out his plans. He's carrying out Cinder's plans (which are really Salem's plans). It's clear from what he says to Ruby in Volume 3 that the reason he's with Cinder is because he has no choice in the matter. He's also never The Heavy. He's the Arc Villain (at best) for Volume 1 only. That's because his boss, Cinder, is The Heavy. She a faceless figure in the pilot episode and seen only in silhouette in the opening credits throughout Volume 1, and is revealed in full in finale's stinger, where it's made clear she's the one pulling Roman's strings.
In the pilot episode, the only reason Roman escapes Ruby (the fifteen-year old main character) is because Cinder has an airship waiting to collect him. Even then, it's clear that there's nothing he can do about Glynda (a fully-trained Huntress) — it's Cinder who fights off Glynda. In the Volume 1 finale, we don't know how the shipping crates of Dust were actually stolen. We only see it when the school-kid heroes Blake and Sun stake out the joint and wait for Roman and the White Fang to arrive. Instead of collecting the Dust, as planned, Blake and Sun (along with the state-of-the-art combat robot, Penny) send Roman running. Cinder's reveal in The Stinger is to chastise him for his failure (making it clear that it's all her plan).
Regarding the recruitment scene: I've got no problem with Roman's speech, but it's worth pointing out that Sun and Blake's disguise consists solely of a mask. Roman simply sees through their Paper-Thin Disguise. We already know by this point that "his" operation is actually Cinder's, so we don't know how he (or Cinder) came by the stolen Paladins. What we do know (although we only learn this a volume later) is that they're Flawed Prototype models, which is why the heroines (still in their first year of school) are able to defeat them. The sole reason why Roman is able to escape the heroines is because of Neo. Just as with Cinder in the pilot episode, it's Neo who carries out the rescue and escape of Roman.
All I'll say about the Volume 2 plan (the trains) is that this was Cinder's plan. The fact that the heroines were able to locate Roman and the White Fang meant that Roman decided to activate this part of the plan early, forcing Cinder to adapt on the fly when she realised what was going on. This is therefore more of a statement about how Cinder can adapt on the fly when part of her plan goes wrong than it is about Roman being a Magnificent Bastard.
There are quite a few inaccuracies with Salem's write-up. I won't spend time on all of them, but I'll give one example in the reference to the claim that Ozma was resurrected to fight Salem because she was using the Grimm to terrorise the reborn humanity. Not only do we have no idea what Salem was actually doing between the time she fell in the Pools of Annihilation and reuniting with Ozma, but Ozma's mission from the God of Light was to guide the new humanity to salvation by uniting them in peace and then summoning back the gods for Judgement Day. The God of Light only mentions Salem after Ozma himself raises the subject, and only to warn Ozma to not seek her out because she's no longer the woman he fell in love with and he will find only pain if he does. Ozma's failure to heed that warning, and his life going to hell as a result, is what eventually leads him to decide that the only way he can achieve the god's mission is by killing Salem (who is trying to divide humanity against itself).
Anyway, Salem:
Salem is something of an Orcus on His Throne. She's only ever seen in or around her evil lair and, for the first six volumes, never leaves this place. Her subordinates (including Cinder) travel to her and carry out her instructions elsewhere in the world. While it's made clear that all the plots we've seen the other subordinates carrying out (particularly Cinder's plotting that unfolds during the first three volumes of the show) is Salem's plan, and that she has a very personal grudge against the Big Good (Professor Ozpin, Ozma's incarnation for the first three volumes of the show), we don't know how much of the plot of the first three volumes was definitely hers. Cinder clearly had the ability to adapt on the fly when certain things went wrong or were unexpected, so Salem clearly had given her a long leash. In Volumes 4-5, her other subordinates come into play as well as Cinder. We know that her plan is to divide humanity, and that's she's being working at this for thousands of years; while her back story is revealed in Volume 6, it still leaves her end-game a mystery.
So, we know she manipulated the gods — but that's backstory reveal during a single episode (the gods figured it out very quickly, too, and punished her, which is what led to her learning how to manipulate humanity in a bad case of Rage Against the Heavens for Never My Fault reasons). We therefore haven't seen her directly enacting her plan — her subordinates do that. We have seen one or two examples of how she intimidates her subordinates, and that she has a different style for each subordinate (as per the I Control My Minions Through... trope).
Salem is set up to be the kind of villain whose threat comes from their ability to manipulate the entire world from the shadows. However, because she remains in the shadows, working through others, I don't think she has enough on-screen feats. That might change from Volume 7 onwards, but Volume 7 won't start until the autumn.
I think it's premature to deal with Salem right now. I don't believe we have enough from her. However, I do think she needs to be kept on a watch list and revisited at some point in the future.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 12th 2019 at 6:22:45 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Lizzid people!
Having spoken about Roman in a PM, I'd have to sadly say "no" for him. At least there's his manga counterpart to look forward to.
Thanks again, Septimus!