Opening.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Transcender of Gender
This trope is about LGBT characters having a disproportionately high mortality/"sad ending" rate in comparison to straight characters from the same work. Whether said LGBT characters are portrayed as "deserving" unhappiness has never, to my knowledge, been a requirement for the trope. In fact, as the page notes, one way this trope can materialise is killing off gay characters because they're Too Good for This Sinful Earth.
From the Bury Your Gays page:
From its laconic and Playing With:
And one more from Wikipedia:
I don't think that a character's death has to be intrinsically tied to their sexuality in order to qualify for this trope. If a show has six characters, and the sole gay character among them dies tragically in a car crash while the rest survive and/or have happy endings, then it would qualify.
Examples that I do think would be misuse:
- A gay character dies/suffers in a work that has multiple other gay characters that survive and/or have happy endings.
- A gay character dies/suffers in a work where very, very few characters survive or have a happy ending (though as the Playing With notes, this trope can still come into play in Anyone Can Die works if the deaths of gay characters are more excessively graphic or tragic, or if they die in a notably higher frequency compared to their straight peers).
No, the other one.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I pretty much agree with that. An example should be able to point out why the character being gay has to do with the character not getting a happy ending. If there are things pointing away from it, such as very few characters having happy endings or other gay characters having happy endings, then the trope isn't in use.
Question about the statistics from Wikipedia:
- How does the % of LGBT characters who "die or meet another unhappy ending" compare to the average? The average for straight characters? What about characters without revealed orientation? (I just realized a possible reason for this trope is that it's a waste to give a unique orientation to characters that won't have significant narrative roles. Anyway...)
The Wikipedia article shows that it's a valid concept worth keeping in some form. But if each entry requires a mathematical calculation to determine if the LGBT death toll is above average (this wiki would need to determine an average, possible exceptions for works with high death tolls and disproportionally LGBT casts), if large numbers of faceless, identity-less casualties or characters without known or clear orientation count to that...
It just seems easier that we leave Bury Your Gays an example-less trope, since it having a Wikipedia article show it's a widely recognized concept, but like, it breaks down when we try to identify specific examples. The only unambiguous examples I see are those that deal with in-universe homophobia, which I think should be moved to it's own trope "Homophobic Hatred".
It seems like Magnum Opus, it's definitely a thing, but there's so much room for debate over what is or isn't an example that it needs a limitation (in this case, In Universe Examples Only) to keep it objective enough to trope. Any ideas to make Bury Your Gays more objective?
Also looking at the wicks, there are a lot that are just in the 'can die' territory in games and such where it up to the player's choices and ability to help or hurt them. I would say that is misuse as well.
I'd actually toss that into the pile of "nearly everyone dies or gets a sad ending," actually. If you can choose to murder or spare everyone you meet and one of those people is gay, then it's not an example. But if the straight characters are all choices between helping them/imprisoning them and the gay characters are all choices between helping them/murdering them, then it's still an example.
Basically, imagine that all choices are canon, then work out the statistics of that.
So for multiple story outcomes, this trope is in effect if a disproportionate amount of them are the "nearly everyone dies or gets a sad ending" kind. Yes?
This brings me to my question, precisely how "disproportionate" does it have to be to qualify as this trope? Twice as much? 20%? Would each entry actually requires someone do the math?
No, the other one.
I'd say at least roughly a 50% difference in bad endings. So nearly everyone of the gay characters if half of the straight characters get bad endings, and half of them if nearly all of the straight characters get good endings. I'd also add a caveat that it has to be more than that if there are few enough characters. If one character is enough to break the pattern, it's probably a coincidence if there's not more evidence.
edited 16th Aug '17 12:04:15 PM by AnotherDuck
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So would the Mass Effect: Andromeda example not count since they are the only major gay character to die (in a manner irrelevant to their sexuality) in a work where lots of characters have died by that point? Do we actually need someone to do the math?
Do all examples require someone do and/or show the math?
Also, this recent addition to Unfortunate Implications:
- Atomic Blonde picked up a significant LGBTFanbase before it was even out thanks to the promises of the main character being bisexual and her primary love interest being a woman. Many of them [[http://www.thewrap.com/atomic-blonde-hit-late-breaking-criticism-killing-lgbt-character/ were disappointed to discover]] that [[spoiler:the love interest character is [[BuryYourGays brutally murdered by the villain]] toward the end, in a case of StuffedIntoTheFridge without a hint of irony]].
I can see why people would be upset, but is it example under the abnormally high death statistic we are discussing?
No, the other one.
If it's just one character, not the only one dying, and no comment on it, then yeah, not an example.
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Transcender of Gender
The average for straight characters is a hell of a lot harder to calculate given that there's thousands upon thousands of them. That said, according to the original infographic
, only 12 of the 68 shows that killed a lesbian/bisexual women also killed off a male character of equal narrative importance.
They shouldn't. The narrative importance of the characters should be taken into consideration. If Bob, Charlie, and Alice are the only gay characters in a work, and all die or end up unhappy, then does it matter that the same work also killed off four or five nameless mooks that might or might not have been straight?
A thing to remember is that works typically have far less LGBT characters than they do straight characters. If Atomic Blonde only has two LGBT characters, and one of them is brutally murdered in order to make the other one angst, then I (and many other people, going by that link) would consider it an example of the trope unless the surviving woman gets an unambiguously happy ending.
Yes, "one gay character dies in this work" doesn't seem like much. But when they're the only gay character in said work, or one out of two, then it's a lot more eyebrow-raising. That's already 100% or 50% of the show's LGBT cast.
they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob
No, the other one.
I agree that mooks don't really count. They're very rarely proper characters, and more plot devices in human form. I would also be very hesitant to count characters of unknown sexuality. That often means they don't have much characterisation at all.
If the only gay characters are a couple, one of them dies and the other grieves over it, then there are two gay characters with sad endings. One death doesn't affect just the dying character.
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Updating since this thread has stalled.
The Atomic Blond has convinced me that their are legitimate examples of this trope, where LGBT characters have disproportionately high morality rates. The Mass Effect: Andromeda is the only example I can confidently say is a misuse.
Here's my proposal: replace the Square Peg Round Trope entry (which was unapproved the cause of this debate) with one saying this trope only applies to works with a disproportionate amount of LGBT fatalities (and those effected) and remove misuses on a case by case basis. Also I think this trope should be removed from Character pages since this trope applies to the work as a whole and not individuals (like the death of any single individual can't count as a Kill Em All).
Also the following:
- Season two of Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans has Yamagi Gilmerton (gay) and Norba Shino (bi which is confirmed by Word of God). The former is too shy to confess his feelings to the latter and is unable to. Sadly, Shino was killed off when he went on a suicide run after failing to hit Rustal Elion's flagship which was foiled by his loyal subordinate. Shino was supposed to be killed off in Season 1 except the director wanted a happy ending for that season. Fortunately, Yamagi averted this trope where he and the rest of the Tekkadan survivors ended up having stable lives after changing their identities - including the possibly bisexual girls Atra and Kudelia, who get what's possibly the happiest ending of them all as they raise Atra and the dead Mikazuki's son, Akatsuki, together.
Since this discussion argues that this trope applies to those effected by said deaths, the 50% mortality rate is a solid example, but if Yamagi is not an example (what this article argues), the 25% is around the arbitrary 20% I'd say is the cutoff point. So do LGBT characters effected by the deaths of others qualify if they overcome it and get a happy ending?
Iron Blooded Orphans is easily a non-example, almost all the good guys die including The protagonist in S2. The bad guys are the ones to survive..
So any works with a high death toll for major characters are exempt. That's something to to keep in mind.
Any thoughts/objections to my proposal to replace the Square Peg Round Trope entry and removing Bury Your Gays from Character pages.
This trope is specifically when gays are singled out to die, if it is indiscriminate in its (possible) body count it is just not an example.
None of the Gundam series are an example. There is way too much Kill Em All in the majority of the series and the others its all heavy HEAVY Shipping Goggles on if they are gay.
edited 12th Sep '17 12:44:07 AM by Memers
Bump.
Any objections with replacing the Square Peg Round Trope entry (the cause of this debate) with the following
- Bury Your Gays is oft used for any time an LGBT character dies, when is supposed to refer to their being singled out to die due to their sexuality. If a work has high death tolls or many LGBT characters that don't die, this trope is not in effect.
That sounds a lot more coherent. With that definition, examples like the following aren't kosher, right?
- The Divine Comedy
- Homosexuals and usurers get the same level in Hell. note By placing both homosexuals and usurers in the circle of the violent, and in a setting that so strongly symbolizes sterility (the burning desert), Dante establishes each sin as the opposite of the other: the homosexuals make sterile that which should be fertile (their sexuality — according to medieval theology, all sex should have procreation as its final purpose), while usurers make fertile that which should be sterile (wealth should be generated by nature or art, not by interest accumulated by existing wealth.)
- Dante sees his mentor in the burning desert, but the reason he's there is ambiguous. note Also, that part took place in the middle of Inferno, which has a special place in the other books as well. Thirdly, he depicts homosexuals as constantly running from being burned, which might be symbolic for how gay people had to run from being marked during their lives (more likely it has to do with the rain of fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah). note
I'd say that's not this trope since this is about their dying, the afterlife is a separate concept.
Also: adding revise def.
edited 2nd Oct '17 3:17:22 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught
It looks like interest in this thread has dried up. We've fixed the Square Peg Round Trope entry that was causing confusion and created president for removing misuses.
I say we can wrap this thread up and fix misuses on a case by case basis from here on out. Any objections to closing this thread?
Recently added:
In an Anyone Can Die setting, this trope can still manifest itself, either by having the gay character die first, having the gay character die shortly after they have come out the closet or otherwise have fully accepted own their sexuality, or having the gay character die in an especially gruesome and/or excessive manner. See also Black Dude Dies First and Death By Sex.
I don't see any signs this was approved. Any problems with it?
edited 30th Oct '17 3:31:26 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught
Villain Protagonist
^ No, I agree with that, i say keep it. In many cases i think its seen as completing their story arc- they've accepted their sexuality, they're out, now their loose end is wrapped up and we can kill off the character.
edited 31st Oct '17 8:16:27 PM by PistolsAtDawn
I dont agree with it like at all. There is no pattern for it, if there is then make a different trope out of it it does not belong here.
This is an aggregate trope and there is nothing to aggregate with that.
No, the other one.
If it's because they finished their character arc, then it's a different trope, because it's not specifically about them being gay.
The main problem I have with it is that if it's an Anyone Can Die setting, there needs to be several gay characters dying in a significantly higher proportion (as we discussed earlier) than straight characters. As such, writing "the gay character" in singular is misleading.
This entry
regards a page that was locked (since unlocked) over debate if a character qualified.
From Square Peg Round Trope:
However, there is nothing on Main.Bury Your Gays to suggest such restrictions. Homosexual characters dying in ways not connected to their sexuality sounds like People Sit on Chairs, and no different than Character Death.
How many examples fit the strict criteria under Square Peg Round Trope? Or even have to do with their sexuality?
Out of 50 examples, 0 of them fit the Peg definition. The only works that I can think would fit would be so dated/fringe that it would probably be better off as an example-less page/trope, if not Flame Bait. However, I see no evidence the Peg example was approved by anyone and not added unilaterally. So the Peg itself may be a misuse.
Peg aside, the only examples that I can comfortably say involve this trope are those that deal with in-universe homophobia. Maybe it could be reworked around that.
edited 14th Aug '17 12:56:34 AM by Ferot_Dreadnaught