During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I just finished the last season of Korra. Nobdy from season 4 counts but I think Unalaq could use some touch ups.
- Legend of Korra: Unalaq, Korra's Evil Uncle, is at first the Holier Than Thou leader of the Northern Water Tribe who is angry how the Southern tribe has lost its spirituality under his elder brother Tonraq. Thirteeen years before the plot, Unalaq tried to have the young avatar kidnaped, and abandoned the kidnapers to isolated prisons when the plan failed. Upon the reappearance of Dark Spirits, Unalaq takes the chance to move in his armies to seize control of the Southern Tribe and has anyone who may oppose removed in a Kangaroo Court before Korra discovers he is the one behind the events that got her father exiled from his home tribe, allowing Unalaq takeover. He had gotten barbarians to attack his own home so Tonraq could awaken Dark Spirits to attack their tribe. Unalaq reveals himself as an opportunistic tyrant whose feelings for his own twin children can best be described as "uncaring" as when his son Desna is injured, almost fatally, Unalaq tells Desna's sister Eska to simply leave him to die as opening the Spirit World is more important. When he gets into the Spirit World, Unalaq forces Korra's cooperation by attacking and threatening to destroy the soul of Jinora, a little girl. When Korra caves in, Unalaq tries to destroy her soul anyways. Unalaq later assaults the Southern Water tribe and delivers a Curbstomp Battle to Tonraq, sparing his life solely so Tonraq can see Unalaq win completely. Unalaq reveals his true plan is to free Vaatu, the spirit of darkness and chaos, to fuse with him into a Dark Avatar in order to usher in ten thousand years of his own dark rule. After he succeeds in merging with Vaatu, Unalaq battles Korra and tears the spirit of light and order, Raava, out of her, brutally attempting to obliterate her. After returning to the material world, he attacked Republic City by spreading out vines which were later revealed to contain enough potential energy to wipe out the entire city. He planned destroy all world order, declaring his rule has begun.
edited 20th Dec '14 7:13:30 AM by randomtroper89
One of my last current proposals: Freddy Russell from the film Cold in July
Hero Richard Dante begins the movie shooting an intruder in his home, apparently identified as one Freddy Russell. Richard is left shaken by the experience. Russell's father, Ben, begins to stalk and harass Richard after. However, Richard sees a wanted poster for Freddy and realizes he looks nothing like the man Richard actually shot.
Richard convinces Ben something is wrong, ad they learn of a conspiracy in the police. Freddy was involved with the 'Dixie Mob' and when caught by federal investigators, turned states witness. His death is faked so he can rest easy from their hunting him. Richard, Ben and their other comrade, a PI, track down Freddy's residence where they find a stash of 'home videos.'
...upon watching them, they appear to be pornographic films...only for Freddy to tie down the woman, get a baseball bat and beat her to death. It turns out Freddy is a Serial Killer in this respect, targeting prostitutes who are usually minorities or immigrants so the cops don't catch on (or care) much at all. He operates his own snuff film ring where he regularly kills the women. There are a lot of tapes, too. Ben is so disturbed, he decides to kill Freddy at any cost.
The trio invade Freddy's hideout and kill his men while Freddy tries to kill them. Another prostitute is held captive there for the next home movie, too. As far as redeeming quality goes? Not a one. He tries to kill Ben, and only learns Ben is his dad seconds before he dies. His only reaction is "you really my dad?" immediately before Ben shoots him in the face.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
How is that last line played? I can easily see a line like that used for some last-minute bad guy sympathy.
Not in a redeeming way, I'd say. He seems mildly curiously and bewildered more than anything.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- I assume we see what's on the videos?
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
- RT89, please put those touchups on the YMMV page and I'll tweak.
- Which write up for It?
- Speaking of King, I don't know if it's the series or the book, but I found the following for Rennie:
- Affably Evil: For a murderous, power-hungry councilman, Big Jim is actually pretty friendly if you're on his good side.
- Even Evil Has Loved Ones: Before going off to kill Maxine, Big Jim tells Junior to stay at home with an almost tearful farewell that makes you wonder if Big Jim knows he might not come back alive.
- Morality Pet: His son Junior, and also Rose.
I'll submit these tomorrow morning (in around 24 hours or so).
- IT: In the town of Derry, Maine, IT awakens from its hibernation every three decades and proceeds to murder and devour the children of the town, often using the avatar of a Monster Clown named Pennywise to lure children into its clutches. IT prides itself on using its shapeshifting and hallucinogenic powers to torment its victims, preying on their phobias and acquired fears and likening the cultivation of their terror to "salting the meat." From 1740 to 1743, IT was responsible for the disappearance of three hundred Derry Township settlers. In 1957, IT killed Bill's six-year-old brother, George, and devoured Patrick Hockstetter alive while in the form of his greatest fear, leeches. IT also drove Henry Bowers to madness, then killed Bowers' friends after they succeeded in luring the Losers' Club into the sewers. After waking up in 1984, IT kills a man named Adrian Mellon before resuming its violent killing spree of children. IT proceeds to manipulate Henry Bowers into trying to kill the Losers; drives Bill's wife, Audra, catatonic by exposing her to its deadlights; and manages to kill Eddie before its final defeat.
- The Hills Run Red: Wilson Concannon establishes himself as one of the most depraved killers in the slasher genre. A director working on the titular lost slasher film, Concannon wasn't satisfied with how his actors worked, so he donned the costume of the killer, Babyface, and simply filmed him killing the actors. He also raped his thirteen year old daughter, Alexa, and abused the resulting child with abuse, locking him in a dark room, and even letting him cut off his own face and become the new Babyface killer to impress him. At the time of the film, a movie buff named Tyler and his friends go to Concannon's house to find a copy of the film. While Tyler’s tied to a wheelchair, Concannon nonchalantly confesses his deeds, amused at Tyler’s disgust. He takes Tyler to watch as his friend is killed on camera, but belittles Alexa for working on the film behind his back, shooting her. When their son panics, he only tells him to get back in character.
- The Vampire Diaries: Markos from season five is the leader of the Travelers, a subculture of witches restrained from using magic. Markos planned on undoing that spell along with every spell ever cast by a witch, viewing their magic as an abomination and his own as pure. Centuries ago, he enacted a curse so that certain generations of the descendants of Silas and Amara would be their exact doppelgangers, brainwashed into being drawn together, so he could use their blood for the Travelers' ritual; even before he is resurrected, he orders the death of Stefan's completely innocent doppelganger, Tom Avery, just so Stefan and Elena will be the only ones left. He allows his most loyal minion, Sloane to dies just to demonstrate the result of his curse; begins the destruction of the Other Side, an afterlife for supernatural creatures, causing its denizens to start hurtling into the void, and comes at the price of the sacrifice of his own minions; later abducts and tortures Stefan and Elena for more of their blood; leads the Travelers in a mass ritual to possess the population of Mystic Falls, destroying their original bodies to make the change permanent; tries to unleash an anti-magic field that would have killed every vampire on the planet. In the season finale, Markos has Tyler/Julian killed, after learning that Julian killed Stefan when Stefan was still useful to them. When Markos suspects a plot to kill him, he keeps Caroline's mother Sheriff Forbes close to him, and pins her down in his dying moments. After his death, he attempts to resurrect himself by forcibly passing through Bonnie, which again would have risked her death. While most villains on this show have honorable or sympathetic qualities, Markos has none, only caring about his his goal and going to any lengths and depths to achieve it.
- Starchaser: The Legend of Orin: Zygon is a smug, domineering galactic conqueror with a God complex who seeks to rule humanity. Formerly a rogue android known as Nexus, his first attempt to take over humanity was stopped by guardians known as the Ka-Khan, and his army was destroyed. Forced to hide, Zygon bides his time and establishes a slave mine on the planet Zinia, forcing human slaves (who are forced to work regardless of age or physical condition) into such harsh conditions they often die. The blade the Ka-Khan used to defeat him is found by an old slave, who's killed to keep it a secret. Once Orin finds out about the blade and decides to escape, Zygon fatally strangles his girlfriend Elan. After Orin escapes, Zygon places a massive bounty on his head and has his Mecha-Mooks attack him at every turn. He captures Dagg and has him painfully tortured by shooting a laser into his forehead, overseeing it with a sadistic grin. After he has the heroes within his grasp, Zygon leads his ships to obliterate the human's opposing fleet and take over the planet by force. Once he's been revealed as Nexus, Zygon takes Aviana (the new love interest) hostage, threatening her life. Once Orin surrenders, Zygon attempts to strike him down with his own blade. Cocky and arrogant, Zygon was as remorselessly cruel as an evil overlord could be.
edited 21st Dec '14 7:00:18 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@ACW - Regarding Rennie, that applies to the TV Show. In the show he went through a downplayed example of Adaptional Heroism that gave him positive traits. Of course it was someone deconstructed in the last episodes of season two, where he goes off the deep end, and he often uses his Morality Pets to justify himself.
PS. Personally, I like the second Pennywise write up.
Also, I have four for Simone against a possible ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
, should I wait for more or is now a time to do a write up.
edited 20th Dec '14 5:15:08 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lizzid people!
The second writeup for It.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll also give my to the second one.
So I got to work of write ups for Simone and Peter.
- Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Simone Doffler of the comic book continuation initially started out as a rebellious slayer who didn't see the value of the lives of others and believes that Slayer's are superior to normal people, and therefore should rule over them. In an attempt to soften her she was put under the watch of Andrew Welles, hoping to soften her - instead she goes rouge and steals a demon to use as a weapon and asks Buffy to turn over Andrew to kill and torture for annoying her. She also led a small but growing army of rouge slayers who set up base on a small island where Simone beat up an old woman who gave them food and shelter. Simone's would later commit acts of terrorism, including raiding a military base and killing their general, relishing in the fearsome reputation it gave the slayers. Later Simone learned of the zompires, and plotted to find a way to become one and keep her mind intact, for the sole sake of killing Buffy. To experiment, she feeds her own followers to them. When she learns Buffy's sister Dawn is dying, she manipulates their friend Xander with a chance to save her by finding the deeper well. Her true intentions was to awaken the Old One, Maloker to sire her into a vampire herself.
- The Lost Boys: Peter from the third film, is known publicly as the brother of vampire novelist Gwen Lieber, in private, he is the Alpha Vampire and her alleged lover. He is seemingly held hostage by DJ X, who used Peter's blood to make a drug to create vampires, only to take control of the consumers once DJ X, was killed, nearly sending them into a feeding frenzy. Upon being revealed as the Alpha Vampire, we are treated to a flash back of him leading vampires on an attack of a village. He offered Gwen a chance to become a vampire if she brings him Edgar and Alan Frog, and once she does the task, he kills her. He reveals his true intentions all along, where to turn Edgar and Alan into vampires themselves, so they can be his personal hitmen and cull the expanding vampire race, so there can be more people to feed on. Since Alan was already transforming, Peter uses his partial control over Alan to force him to fight Edgar.
I would like to suggest the Player Killer/Panik from YuGiOh. He's one of the few to receive the dubious 'honor' of being on the business end of a Mind Crush, and for good reason. Unlike the Paradox Brothers who are in it for the money, this Eliminator is a bastard through-and-through, chaining his opponent to the duel arena and setting off flamethrowers dangerously close to them in order to wear away at their mental fortitude. He has no qualms about hitting girls (Mai), and at the height of his Villainous Breakdown he turns the flamethrowers directly on Yugi, a highschool student, with full intent to kill: if the Millennium Puzzle hadn't protected him, Yugi would have been char-broiled. With no redeeming qualities whatsoever, Panik's easily the darkest opponent of the Duelist Kingdom Arc; a sadistic, cowardly bully who outwardly states that he relishes in psychologically breaking his opponents after forcing them to duel him, so much so that he declined to retire just so he could continue the 'hunt'.
He's nowhere near heinous enough.
Can I have some more discussion on Freddy btw, guys? As far as the videos, we see Freddy get a bat, torment the woman on it by miming swings at her, and then the camera cuts away when he swings for real, but we see the reaction of Richard, Ben and Jim Bob while we hear the sounds of impact
edited 20th Dec '14 9:05:03 AM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Seems close enough to a Discretion Shot to count.
I've been wondering if Zero from Fairy Tail would count. I tried searching for him to see if he had been discussed, but I didn't find him. He's the Superpowered Evil Side to Brain, who already is evil enough (another Marik and Dark Marik from Yu-Gi-Oh! if you will), and he invokes the Generic Doomsday Villain trope by saying that he doesn't need a reason to destroy. Of course, his ultimate goal is to destroy everything, and there is no reason needed. Brain just wants to wipe out the official wizard guilds. Also, for some reason, Zero's eyes are completely red.
On the other hand, Zero really isn't on screen for long enough to do much other than nearly destroy the Cait Shelter guild and nearly kill Natsu. So I doubt he would count, but I'm bring him up just in case.
edited 20th Dec '14 9:45:39 AM by SatoshiBakura
Sounds to me like Zero is a Generic Doomsday Villain, plus he sounds like a split personality, and those are disqualified.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
- Baron Frederick von Holsing, a one shot villain on Prince Valiant manages to outdo even recurring villains with his greed and lack of regard for human life. Von Holsing is a noble in the kingdom of Kengary, which has been at war with a neighboring nation for as long as anyone can remember. When King Ian, Frederick's uncle, makes inroads to initiate a lasting peace, Frederick murders him to frame their enemies and keep the war going. It is revealed that Frederick intends to prolong the war indefinitely so he can take men, women and children as slaves to work to death in his private mines for his personal profit. When Valiant uncovers the plot, Frederick attempts to murder his friends, send Valiant to his mines and kidnap Valiant's female comrade Rowanne with the threat of making her his. Vain, selfish and greedy, Frederick von Holsing stands as the worst representative of nobility in all the series.
- Extreme Ghostbusters: The ectoplasmic being known only as 'Piper' initially seems a savior to New York City when introduced as his pipe has the ability to repel ghosts even the Ghostbusters are powerless against. Piper soon reveals his true colors, however: he is the one responsible for the sudden plague of ghosts, and when the Mayor attempts to pay him according to contract, Piper reveals he wants more. After his requests for a statue of himself down 5th Avenue and an office in city hall are denied, Piper uses his flute to hypnotize the children of the city and tries to force them to drown themselves, gloating the mayor will "rue the day he refused to pay the Piper." when the Ghostbusters intervene, Piper has no compunction using the kids as human shields in the ensuing fight.
- In the Garth Ennis Sci Fi Horror series Caliban: The body snatching alien, known as Karien after its human host, is a being of electrical impulses that possesses sentients. It is made clear the alien is a thinking, sentient being who simply doesn't care at all about the lives of others. When the Caliban stumbles on a derelict alien spacecraft, it is revealed that the alien Karien massacred the prior crew. Upon possessing its host, Karien brutally tortures and kills crew members to figure the limits of human physiology. When it understands human limits enough, Karien proceeds to enhance the body with alien technology before slaughtering the remaining crew save two. Krien intends to force them to take it back to earth so it may proceed to enslave it and rule over it by using humans as tools or bodies to possess.
He is a Split Personality. And again, he invokes Generic Doomsday Villain as he flat out states that he doesn't need a motive to destroy anything physical. He's also a rather Ax-Crazy Blood Knight.
Besides, I don't see a rule that disqualifies Split Personality Split Personalities]] in the FAQ. If so, why did Dark Marik from Yu-Gi-Oh! get passed since he's also a Split Personality.
However, he doesn't get enough screen time to do much.
edited 20th Dec '14 10:32:17 AM by SatoshiBakura
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll have those two, as well as Simone and Peter, by Monday maybe.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Panik, just a hired thug.
So, I have a question about Offscreen Villainy. Let's say the Big Bad has a backstory where they murder everyone in a village for no particular reason or ate a baby. We never see the action, just told by exposition. Now, the villain brings up those crimes themselves and says something like "Man, I haven't had this much fun since I killed all those worthless villagers!" or "Hm... I should really eat another baby. The first one was delicious!"
How would this affect a villain's qualifications for this trope? Of course, they'd have to do more than just brag about being evil.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Still offscreen. Now, if we see a Serial Killer kill (or even attempt to kill) only one victim, that's still enough to establish a pattern.
have a nomine: Michael Muller from Amber Alert.
The Film is one of those "found footage" types, and is very annoying. I still think he qualifies though.
The three main characters see an amber alert for a grey Honda. When they see the car, they decide to follow it. When the driver stops to get gas, one of the characters gets out to put a microphone in the car so they can listen in. They hear the guy threatening the girl in the backseet and telling her he willkill her parents, so they call the cops, however, the cops end up taking all day and never find the car. The characters find out his address and go there, wherew they again call the cops (of course they never get there in time because all horror films require things like that). After Michael leaves his home to get candy before raping and killing the girl, two of the characters go into his house while the third stays back to call them if the guy comes back. The two find one room with a camera, and another with pairs of panties nailed to the wall (indicatikng that he's a serial child rapist and murderer as well as a snuff filmer). The two find the girl in a cage with a microphone used so that he knows if anyone enters, and they manage to free her just as their friend tells them, that Michael is back with a gun. Michael shoots the guy in the car, and than goes in to kill the other two. We hear gunshots and get text saying that he killed the two in the house but got shot and killed himself, the guy in the car survived, and the girl was rescued.
He was planning to film himself raping and killing a little girl, is indicated to have done it before, kills two people, wounds another, and threatens to kill the girl's parents, I think he qualifies.
jjj
@ Bakura - Split personalities don't count for moral agency issues, since they aren't a fully-fledged independent actor and can't be divorced from whoever they are split from. Dark Marik counts because he is an independent actor brought about by magic rather than mental illness.
For Michael Muller. How old was the girl he was planning to kill/rape ?
The deal breaker for me on Der Kinderstod is this - the episode he appeared in? It's the one immediately after "Passions", in which Angelus murdered Jenny Calender and used her death to strike a psychological blow to Giles and the others. Therefore, he's far eclipsed in heinousness. SO![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
.
edited 20th Dec '14 11:09:30 AM by AnewMan