To-do list:
- It was decided to replace Transgender Fetishization with Trans Equals Hypersexual and split off a Trans Chaser trope for cisgender characters who have strong sexual interest in transgender or gender-nonconforming people. The old name was disambiguated, and wicks need to be sorted between the two new tropes.
- Clean up Transgender Fetishization's wicks, and crosswick any examples that fit Trans Chaser and/or Trans Equals Hypersexual to the corresponding trope's on-page example list.
Similar to Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite above, Transgender Fetishization suffers from a major problem of naming and scope. The text of description mainly focuses on how trans or gender-nonconforming (GNC) characters are more likely to be fetishized or portrayed as sexual deviants by a work, and the impressions/stigmas that it causes. However, its broad definition means it's just used as a catch-all for any sexual situation involving a trans, GNC, or genderbent character, even when those are already covered by other, more specific tropes.
Based on a wick check:
- Cis character with a trans fetish: 22%
- A trans or GNC character who's overtly sexual: 12%
- Other in-universe trans or GNC fetishization: 4%
- Fanservice of a trans character: 10%
- Fanservice of an intersex, androgynous, or other GNC character: 10%
- Fanservice of a cis character transformed into opposite gender: 12%
- Fanservice of a cis crossdresser: 6%
- Fanservice of a shapeshifter: 8%
- Literally just Trans Character, Cis Actor: 4%
- Cis-trans relationship, not enough context: 4%
- Other or ZCE: 8%
Or to break it down by broader categories:
- In-universe trans fetish or sexualization: 38%
- Fanservice of a trans or GNC character: 20%
- Covered by other tropes: 30%
- Other, Partial, or ZCE: 12%
As you can see, it's used to describe a wide variety of cases, few of which have to do with each other. Barely any of them fit the description and specify whether they're sexualized more heavily than cis characters. Additionally, there are several cases where there's already tropes covering it.
Potential solutions:
I would recommend disambiguating it into the following:
- "Trans Chaser": in-universe fetishization of transgenderism (whether by an individual or a society)
- "Trans Equals Hypersexual": trans characters are depicted as being more horny, sexualized, deviant, etc. than everyone else
- "Trans Fanservice": fanservice of trans or gender non-conforming characters
Meanwhile, the rest can be relocated to other categories:
- Gender transformation and cross dressing examples can go to Attractive Bent-Gender
- Shapeshifter examples can go to Shapeshifters Do It for a Change
- Intersex examples can go to Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite
- Androgynous examples can go into whatever trope gets split off from Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite
Wick check:
This is to examine the scope of Transgender Fetishization and see its breakdown between trans and other gender-nonconforming characters, sexualization by the creators vs. by characters, and whether there's any redundancy or overlap with other tropes.- Characters.El Goonish Shive Main Characters: (Ashley) Her favorite Manga is Ranma ½, and while she already had an interest in Elliot earlier, she crushes on him really hard after witnessing his transformation into a girl.
- Characters.The Revenge Of The Old Queen: (Ray Ammbo) Steve catches him watching a transsexual stripper on his TV.
- Film.Funeral Parade Of Roses: The gay boys at the Genet seem to do this for a living, with the club being a quasi-brothel in which businessmen flirt with and pick up the gay boys. The interview segments do this as well, with the filmmakers showing a prurient interest in the lives of the gay boys.
- Film.Tangerine: An In-Universe example. Razmik is exclusively attracted to transgender women, to the point where he insists a cisgender prostitute he has hired leave and berates her for working his usual block.
- Literature.Nevada: James H. enjoys reading pornography that heavily fetishizes the transgender experience.
- Recap.Family Guy S 8 E 18 Quagmires Dad: Despite his concerns, Quagmire begins to fully support Ida near the end, though his Raging Stiffie is supposedly more okay with it.
- Quagmire: Sorry, sorry! Damn thing can't tell the difference.
- Series.Broad City: In "Citizen Ship," Ilana predicts that everyone on the boat is into women with penises because "Lawyers love 'em."
- Series.Pose: Elektra's lover Dick's insistence on her remaining "a girl with extra" rather than allowing her to transition on her own terms is what makes her break away from him.
- Webcomic.Thinking Too Much To Think Positively: In "Mystery Men", Xan discusses the phenomenon of her and other trans women being followed by creepy men on Twitter whose likes are full of trans smut. She even discusses the possibility that these men consider being trans a fetish and they think that the women they follow will eventually admit they have a fetish and start posting trans porn themselves.
- Webcomic.Trans Girl Next Door: Sometimes discussed. For example, one comic describes some guys trans women meet during online dating, including a guy who only sees trans women as a fetish for "discreet hookups" and a guy who wants to "experiment" despite having "experimented" several times before.
- WebVideo.Con Man: Sean Maher's character mistakenly believes that Wray's convention booker Bobbie (a cis woman) is male, then translates Wray's garbled explanation to mean that she is transgender. He immediately finds her "courageousness" attractive to the point of fetishizing her and desiring sex with "the real you". It does not help that Bobbie plays along.
- Characters.Demon Lord Retry: (Yukikaze) Yukikaze, a "girlish boy", is introduced licking a long popsicle, makes constant sexual innuendos and Double Entendres and is very forward about the things he wants Kunai to do to his "holes". He is by far the most sexually-charged character in the series. Even the title of an episode frames Yukikaze's sexual advances as an "attack" on Kunai.
- Characters.Koihime Musou Visual Novel: (Kada's assistants) They're transgender women and wear way less clothing than the many cisgender women in the giant cast.
- Characters.Maken Ki Venus Academy Members: (Celia) Syria is revealed to have originally born male before she obtained her powers, along with the ability to transform into a girl. As a girl, she is considered extremely beautiful and sexy—partly because she's American, but even in her homeland she's a Teen Idol. She also becomes one of the girls most aggressively pursuing Takeru.
- Characters.Menage A 3: (Senna) Even given the common hypersexualization of characters in the series, Senna stands out due to being extremely forward and eager to anally deflower men.
- Characters.Welcome To Demon School Iruma Kun Other Characters: (Poro) He is very flamboyant, often refers to himself as a lady, and has even imagined having Delkira's child.
- Series.Transparent: Averted during the first season, where Maura was the only character who wasn't engaging in raunchy sexual behavior. Then, it became an Enforced Trope in season 2, after trans writer Our Lady J took the reins. It became her mission to sexualize Maura, but not turn her into an object.
- BioShockInfinite.Burial At Sea: One of the posters in Rapture's porn shop has "Gender Bender" proudly displayed as the title, with the pictured protagonist, Chris, appearing to have breasts and a moustache, while wearing masculine clothing and make-up. This is another part of the shop that's intended to demonstrate Rapture's sexual mores, defying the heteronormative standards that would have been present on the surface at the time (while also exploiting non-heteronormative sexuality/gender to make a profit).
- Cyberpunk2077.Tropes S To Z: Seen on a street advertisement for the in-universe soft drink ChroManticore depicting a female model with a very noticable penis bulge, with the slogan "mix it up". The developers stated that the ad is there to show that, by 2077, transgender people became sex symbols in mass culture. The openly transgender character you actually get to interact with, Claire, isn't fetishized or sexualized in this way.
- Anime.Ixion Saga DT: Mariandale is transgender, and as revealed during the Beach Episode, she is popular with both genders.
- Characters.Corpse Party: (Miyu) A transgender woman, she also gets one of, if not the most sexualised deaths in the entire franchise.
- Characters.Final Fight 1: (Poison & Roxy) Poison and perhaps Roxy are highly sexualized trans women in Stripperiffic outfits.
- Recap.Tales From The Crypt S 7 E 1 Fatal Caper: Miss Fiona Havisham is an attractive transgender lawyer played by Natasha Richardson.
- WebVideo.Contra Points: The trope is discussed in the "Autogynephilia" video, in which she points to J. Michael Bailey's "The Man Who Would Be Queen" as popularizing the trope for modern audiences. In the book Bailey and his assistants refer to trans women as unnaturally attractive (to the point of Uncanny Valley), and with a natural affinity toward sex work.
- Characters.Haganai: (Yukimura) Yukimura was born a girl, but thinks they're male and wants to become a "true man". They're very cute, causing confusion among the guys who think Yukimura is male. Just for further fetish, Yozora makes Yukimura dress as a Meido and later a butler, looking very attractive in both outfits. Yukimura also puts on a girl's swimsuit and has at least one bath scene.
- Characters.Kono Suba Antagonists: Sylvia is a chimera that appears as an attractive and buxom woman, although she mentions she has male sexual organs as well. The anime gives her a lot of Male Gaze and Adaptational Skimpiness.
- Characters.Nier: (Kaine) Played with. While she's intersex, the story means for the player to realize how unsettling the fanservice of her character is supposed to be. She still ends up being a sexy and attractive woman, but she does so of her own choice to assert her feminity.
- Characters.Sekirei Izumo Inn: Homura identifies as male, but that doesn't stop the manga from showing the audience his breasts nearly as frequently as those of the actual girls.
- Characters.UQ Holder Touta Konoes Ministra Magi: (Kuroumaru) Kuroumaru is a demihuman with No Biological Sex who looks like a pretty young girl. Kuroumaru gets just as many Fanservice scenes as any girl in the series, being frequently shown partially or completely naked and forced to wear cute dresses several times.
- Characters.Kami Katsu Working For God In A Godless World: Bertrand's good looks as a girl (whether sexually or modestly) are put in jarring contrast with her discomfort at having become a woman.
- Characters.Nura Rise Of The Yokai Clan Other Yokai Groups: (Awashima) Even though he identifies as male in either form, his female form is shown naked at the hot springs and later is subjected to some Clothing Damage at the hands of the 72-faced demon.
- Characters.Ranma One Half Ranma Saotome: (Ranma) Despite identifying as male to the core, Ranma is often made to wear very appealing outfits when he's in his girl form. Even the covers and Side-Story Bonus Art will put his girl form in sexy clothes.
- Characters.Yamada Kun And The Seven Witches The Main Couple: A large part of the series' Male Gaze and fanservice doesn't derive from actual girls, but instead from Yamada whenever he swaps bodies with a girl (i.e. not an actual transgendered person, but still a boy in a girl's body).
- Literature.Kampfer: While transformed into a girl, Senou is considered one of (if not the) most beautiful women in his school. The show loves to put him into sexual/fanservice situations while in that form, moreso than any other girl. The show also has a very cagey depiction of lesbianism which furthers the trope: the characters outright define "lesbian" as girls who have feelings for each other during puberty, and the droves of adoring male and female admirers have no real interest beyond fetishizing him (this is Played for Laughs) with Senou's serious Love Interests almost all preferring his male form. The sole exception is Sakura, who is only interested in Female Senou but is later revealed to fall into the Psycho Lesbian and Manipulative Bitch tropes.
- Manga.Kanojo Ni Naru Hi:
- Mamiya shows off a skimpy bikini in the Beach Episode, Justified in-story as an indication of Mamiya's desire to show that she's still the calm, cool, always-in-control person she was before despite her Gender Bender and hidden illness, something she only admits indirectly several chapters and many years later when she confesses to Miyoshi that she refused to change or bathe with the other girls during that trip.
- Mamiya wears a Naked Apron in Chapter 14. Justified in-story as an attempt by the hypercompetitve Mamiya to fluster Miyoshi for a change so she can regain the upper hand in their relationship. Her ambivalence is lampshaded by the fact that she retains her underwear (though she makes sure Miyoshi can't see that.)
- Characters.Baka And Test Summon The Beasts: (Hideyoshi) He's sexually androgynous and he gets more Fanservice scenes than the girls themselves, much to his annoyance.
- Characters.Guilty Gear XX: (Bridget) Zig-zagged. In the XX era, she was subject to a lot of fanservice tropes, especially her combat animations. But upon coming out as trans in -STRIVE-, these animations are either toned down or removed.
- Characters.Nananas Buried Treasure: (Daruku) Daruku is in fact a boy dressed like a maid. That doesn't stop the animators from showing him in suggestive poses and giving him a Bathtub Scene.
- Marvel Comics: Mystique: One of the most prominent fanservice characters in comics, and her gender-bending powers are often fetishized and sexualized.
- Characters.Runaways Title Team: (Xavin) Or rather genderfluid. Initially created to act as a romantic/sexual partner for a lesbian character, although Characterization Marches On indeed as the comic progresses. Otherwise, considered very attractive in their default human form.
- Characters.UQ Holder The Organization: (Sept) Similar to Kuroumaru, Sept is a being with no gender who can grow breasts just to be naked with the female characters at the Public Bathhouse Scene.
- Characters.Xenoblade Chronicles XNLA: (Erio) Like all of her race, she is Ms. Fanservice. If Erio chooses to live as a male, she and Lyvia are set up as possible romantic interest for Female Rook. She and Lyvia get an entire sidequest about it, in fact.
- FamilyGuyFanon.Tropes Q To Y: "Peter Pan" has Meg gets a transgender boyfriend that was originally a male named Lucas who now goes by the name "Rosalie", identifies as a female. And the episode portrays Rosalie as extremely attractive, especially to Meg—who ends up having sex with her and loses her virginity for the first time after that episode.
- Fanfic.A Picaresque Royale: Kamoshida becomes rather attracted to Ren upon finding out she's trans.
- Recap.Friends S 7 E 22 The One With Chandlers Dad: While most of the male drag queens are portrayed to be unattractive with Uncanny Valley Makeup, the gay transgender singer Charles Bing / Helena Handbasket is played by cisgender actress Kathleen Turner and played up for Fanservice.
- Recap.Two And A Half Men S 1 E 18 An Old Flame With A New Wick: The transwoman Bill (born Jill) is portrayed by actor Chris O'Donnell.
- Characters.Fools And Drunks: Both Subverted and Invoked: as a colt/filly, Snails/Glittershell is sexually rather shy, and has an unfortunate tendency to wind up in sexually-embarrassing situations. It doesn't help that Snips wants to get Snails laid, and that Sweetie Belle, Ermie Lightning and (arguably) Ruby Gift find him attractive as a colt (even if they know he's actually a filly).
- Characters.Super Mario Bros Assorted Nasties: (Birdo) Played With. Due to not being humanoid, Birdo isn't exactly a character designed for Fanservice, but she is portrayed as extremely confident in her appearance and very flirtatious with other characters, especially Yoshi and Popple.
- Recap.Mystery Science Theater 3000 S 08 E 12 The Incredibly Strange Creatures: Or this.
- WebOriginal.The Moore Twins: Averted. The trans characters are no more sexualized than anyone else in the main cast.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 28th 2023 at 9:59:31 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Paging ~Admiral Akbar 1 to the thread. Yeah, I know this was further down the list, but the discussion in the Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite TRS thread indicated that having both running at the same time was important.
Edit: Here's a link to that thread
.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 30th 2023 at 7:09:50 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
So one thing that was brought up in the Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite thread was that it might be unnecessary to keep this trope and that one split along trans vs intersex lines, especially given that both are being misused for all kinds of gender non-conforming/non-binary/non-cis identities. The line between trans and intersex isn't always clear, especially with older works, which often treated the two as one and the same/the creators didn't know enough about either to differentiate.
Pasting Adept's comment:
So in addition to what's been said in the OP, I'd like to bring that up for discussion.
Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 30th 2023 at 7:02:24 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I figured it was worth saying that if any changes have to be made to the decision made in the thread for Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite, such as (but not limited to) due to any decisions made in the thread for Transgender Fetishization, that can be done.
(Mod hat on since the reason the thread for Transgender Fetishization was launched early was because of concerns raised in the thread for Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite.)
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Admiral Ackbar
To float a hybrid idea of my original suggestion + the ideas from the Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite thread, we could disambig these two tropes into:
- In-universe character has a trans/GNC/intersex fetish
- Trans/intersex characters are depicted as inherently sexy and alluring
- Send "trans equals hypersexual" and "androgyny is attractive" ideas to Salvage or TLP
I don't think we need to merge with Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite, since the vast majority of that tropes usage was about non-trans intersex people and the vast majority of this tropes use is non-intersex trans people. From a brief look over the wick check, there was only one example found of Transgender Fetishization being used for an intersex character, just as I only found one example of Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite being used for a trans character. (And it was an "aversion" that should have been Trans Tribulations anyway.)
Angry babby
Funny, I was just thinking about the issues with this trope yesterday.
I agree with splitting into something like "Trans Chaser" and "Trans Equals Hypersexual," but I see no purpose to list any fanservice of a trans character unless them being a Mr. Fanservice / Ms. Fanservice is a distinguishing part of their character, in which case it would fall into the latter category.
I think it could be less "trans = hypersexual" and more "being trans is conflated with sexuality," even if the character isn't necessarily hypersexual. For example, it could cover works whose only trans characters are sex workers, which may be an example of both tropes that would emerge from this.
Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 31st 2023 at 8:55:56 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm assuming you mean split instead of disambig. Disambiguating usually implies getting rid of the trope without replacing it, while splitting the concepts covered by one trope into multiple narrower tropes is simply called splitting, and the latter sounds like what you're proposing. (Though we could still disambiguate the old name between the new tropes if none of them reuse the original name, similarly to how Bonus Boss was disambiguated between Optional Boss and Superboss after its examples were split into two tropes.)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 8:27:34 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Admiral Ackbar
Yeah, split was the term I meant.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Do we have enough options for a crowner, or do we need more discussion first?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Since I didn't vote (sorry for double posting), ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to some form of split
Admiral Ackbar
Same. I also like mightymewtron's suggestion for the two splits.
As a more clear name for "Trans Equals Hypersexual," maybe something like "Trans Equals Overly Sexual"? That would cover connotations of them being hypersexual and only appearing in sexualized contexts.
Admiral Ackbar
Gonna try and get the ball rolling on this again. It seems the general consensus is to split the trope into:
- Trans Chaser: In universe character with a trans fetish
- Trans Equals Hypersexual/Overly Sexual (name TBD): trans people are depicted as very sexual, or are only shown in sexual contexts (fetisists, prostitutes, etc.)
- The rest gets cut or transplanted to more relevant tropes (Mr or Ms. Fanservice, Attractive Bent-Gender, Shape Shifters Do It For A Change, etc.)
Any objections?
Edited by Admiralakbar1 on Sep 27th 2023 at 2:51:40 PM
Above does sound good. I think for the second point, I'd pitch in calling it "Trans Equals Hypersexualization", because that more broadly covers the phenomenon with regards to the overall depiction of trans characters — "Trans Equals Hypersexual" leans a bit more towards "the trans character is themselves a hypersexual person", which might be more easily misconstrued as promiscuity, which is more specific (doesn't cover as much of like, the work itself making them into eye candy through framing and objectification).
Edited by number9robotic on Sep 30th 2023 at 1:51:09 AM
Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
How sweet it is
Those proposals work.
He/Him
Agreed
Angry babby
I actually think limiting it to trans characters being overly sexual beings themselves makes the scope easier to handle, as a lot of people misuse fanservice for subjectivity, including the trope we're splitting. Keeping it in-universe makes it clearer. Plus unfortunately many examples are Fan Disservice.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Admiral Ackbar
I wrote a potential draft for the Trans Chaser page at Sandbox.Trans Chaser, based partially on an old discarded TLP draft of mine. Feel free to revise or add more examples from the original page.
Edited by Admiralakbar1 on Oct 2nd 2023 at 1:36:46 PM
I would believe it would help the trope when it comes to this honestly. The proposal works as others say as long as it doesn't cause too much problem.
Solid work right there.
Agree with 17. I think "character is hypersexual" is more tropeworthy than "character is hyper-sexualized". The former is an actual characterization. The latter sounds like a perv-magnet.
Admiral Ackbar
Here's a draft page for Trans Equals Hypersexual, feel free to add examples to it as well.
A minor note, but i also feel odd that they used a Comparsion Between Poison amd Sakura's moveset, while mostly people (including me) believes that Poison is trans, using a not confirmed character to valid an argument is pretty biased, plus, there are several Cisgender Characters in SF that are as sexualized or even more than Poison (Chun-li, Cammy, Juri and etc)
I would say that it would be better to create a more generalistic Page called "LGBT Fetishization" where you include everything.
Edited by GoldenPillar on Oct 4th 2023 at 10:05:14 AM
Angry babby
We already have All Gays are Promiscuous, but I think trans people, especially trans women, are fetishized in the narrative in a distinct way from the way cis queer people are fetishized.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Well, in my not-so-valid opinion, Trans People and Cisgender-queer people are kinda feitishised in the same way: either in a extremelly mocking way meant to be played on laughs, either in a more serious, respecful way that is still perceived as problematic for some.
Admiral Ackbar
I feel both statements are true—while these stereotypes about gay and trans people both have the same root (i.e., "these queers are perverted freaks"), the specific details of the stereotypes and how they're portrayed do vary.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to split off a Trans Chaser trope (which was drafted using the Sandbox.Trans Chaser sandbox) for cisgender characters who have strong sexual interest in transgender or gender-nonconforming people. The name would be decided with a separate crowner, as well as replace Transgender Fetishization with the trope that was drafted on Sandbox.Trans Equals Hypersexual. The name would be decided with a separate crowner. Should the names used by the sandboxed drafts be used, or should new names be chosen? Vote up to keep the names used by the sandboxes, and vote down to choose a new name.
To-do list:
Similar to Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite above, Transgender Fetishization suffers from a major problem of naming and scope. The text of description mainly focuses on how trans or gender-nonconforming (GNC) characters are more likely to be fetishized or portrayed as sexual deviants by a work, and the impressions/stigmas that it causes. However, its broad definition means it's just used as a catch-all for any sexual situation involving a trans, GNC, or genderbent character, even when those are already covered by other, more specific tropes.
Based on a wick check:
Or to break it down by broader categories:
As you can see, it's used to describe a wide variety of cases, few of which have to do with each other. Barely any of them fit the description and specify whether they're sexualized more heavily than cis characters. Additionally, there are several cases where there's already tropes covering it.
Potential solutions:
I would recommend disambiguating it into the following:
Meanwhile, the rest can be relocated to other categories:
Wick check:
This is to examine the scope of Transgender Fetishization and see its breakdown between trans and other gender-nonconforming characters, sexualization by the creators vs. by characters, and whether there's any redundancy or overlap with other tropes.Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 28th 2023 at 9:59:31 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.