Character pronoun and identity discussion

Got another League of Legends character: Cho'gath

Cho's bio on the official League site uses "it" to describe them, which the series wiki has adopted as their main pronouns. Idk if it's just that the website hasn't been updated yet, but Cho's ability descriptions all switch to he/him. The skin bios also switch it up between all of them, alternating between "he" and "it". This is a really old character who hasn't been consistently updated for their lore, so idk what direction there is if any for them.

the league client itself uses "he" for Cho'gath's skills as well, so both it and he are correct, at least until Cho'gath gets a story update at some point in the future

considering cho'gath is basically an eldritch horror, i don't think it particularly cares

Edited by EpicBleye on Jan 5th 2023 at 5:49:40 AM

Any feedback on First Law Of Gender Bending? I tried to rewrite the description to be clearer, not overlap with the Second Law, and use pronouns in accordance with modern understanding.

I recently started the character page for Cafe Enchante, but I soon encounter a problem in regards to one of the characters Vennia. Vennia has a rather Androgynous and is voiced by a woman (Umeka Shoji) and during the common route, the MC (Kotone) refers to them with they/them pronouns. In Canus' route (a few other where they play a fairly minor role) Kotone switches to using he/him pronouns and it is worth nothing that in the japanese script, they refer to themselves with the masculine pronoun "boku".

So I'm a bit lost on which pronouns to use for them in this wiki.

It sounds like both sets are offical. As long as it's consistent within a given example, I'd think either he/him or they/them is fine, though there should probably be a note about it in the description section of their character sheet.

ETA: Also yeah, he and it both seem fine to use for Cho'gath since both are currently being used by offical sources.

Edited by Orbiting on Jan 5th 2023 at 1:02:29 PM

If that's the case, I'll stick with he/him as those are the pronouns that game sticks with later on.

I did some cleanup on First Law of Gender Bending. Now I have some questions about the Second Law of Gender-Bending.

It says "Of the three laws of gender-bending, this one has become the most Discredited Trope" because of our understanding of gender dysphoria. But has it been discredited or reframed? Certainly we understand that our sex is not incidental for most of us, and that it's a lifelong thing that won't depend on a physical change. But at the same time, most of those on the receiving end of sex-changing phlebotinum are teenagers or young adults, so is it implausible they had dysphoria and were not aware of it? Dysphoria takes many forms and sometimes it can into middle-age to acknowledge it. I would expect the Third Law of Gender-Bending to be more discredited because we now know not everyone who transitions adopts gender-conforming mannerisms. I think this paragraph could be rephrased a bit, maybe: "Of the three laws of gender-bending, this one is the most prone to carrying Unfortunate Implications relating to transgender people. With increasing awareness that gender identity is strong and inherent for most people, writers are now expected to acknowledge that if a character prefers living as the other sex, they had some form of gender dysphoria already. In particular, the idea that Man, I Feel Like a Woman could be reason enough for a man to enjoy being female is discredited."

It also says: "Alternatively, the character had little personal attachment to any gender and/or physical sex, may or may not have changed gender identity, and enjoy changes that were only incidental to them." Isn't this a form of non-binary identity, specifically agender or greygender?

At this point you may just want to make a separate trope talk thread about these tropes.

Maybe... but I don't intend to dwell on this for long, just update the three laws and then it should be done. This topic is at least related to it. I would just like some consensus before changing them.

Well, the issue is that it's not very clear (at least to me) what all of your concerns are, and a spin-off thread will allow an in-depth discussion that isn't off-topic (which it is for this thread).

I think a separate thread will be better because this thread is for discussing the gender identity and pronouns of specific characters. This seems more like a description issue.

You're right. I may try the Trope Description Improvement thread, I just worry that my concerns are not about describing tropes but rather how they relate to real issues, so I want to reach those who are knowledgeable in those issues.

Is there a view on how best to handle non-binary characters who aren't stated to be NB in a very obvious place in the work?

The two I'm immediately thinking of are in Marvel's comics - Jack of Knives (introduced in Eternals (2021)) and Valentine Vuong (from Deadpool (2022)).

Both seem to use they/them pronouns, which isn't always obvious in the dialogue.

For Jack, this was confirmed by writer Kieron Gillen on Twitter (but now deleted due to Gillen largely leaving Twitter).

For Valentine, there's a "wanna be my enbae?" note in one issue (one of Deadpool's abandoned chat-up lines), but it's easy to miss.

Is it worth a commented out "%%NOTE - [character] uses they/them pronouns" on the works page, to help editors who may have missed this? Or is that overkill? It just seems easier than fixing and explaining in edit reasons, but ymmv.

(Once they get a Characters page entry it's easy enough to directly mention it in the intro, but when they're in multiple Shared Universe works, folk may still miss that)

Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 18th 2023 at 1:27:30 PM

What pronouns does the comic itself use as that's what I would go with?

Not necessarily. One can be not particularly tethered to notions of gender but still enjoy the ones they were assigned. I know a lot of people who identify as cis but feel that way.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 18th 2023 at 7:16:45 AM

The comics are consistently using they/them, but written in a way that doesn't draw attention to that (which I personally like, but also means readers/tropers sometimes miss it).

if the comics are consistently using they/them, then the pages should follow.

Any objection to a %% comment being added to that effect?

for "they/them" (as a side note, "enbae" is a pretty brilliant pun).

The comment isn't necessary unless there's an actual history of pronoun reverts.

What should be Candy Caramella's pronouns? Candy is a crossdressing cis man in the cartoon but a trans woman in the Stupid Invaders game, and Word of Gay confirms Candy as nonbinary.^note the video is in French, however However, the Half-Dressed Cartoon Animal example in Candy's profile in Characters.Space Goofs uses "he/she" instead of "he" or "she".

Edited by TroperNo9001 on Jan 29th 2023 at 4:40:33 AM

Is there any In-Universe confirmation of the Word of Gay?

Absent that, I would be inclined to go with he/him in discussions of the original IP, she/her in discussions of the mentioned Spin-Off.

Agreed.

What about Rudy from Western Animation/3rdAndBird? I always thought they were a boy because "Rudy" is a boy's name, but on the other hand, they wear a decoration on their leg and I've seen some people on the Wiki referring to them as a girl.

Thirded.

Are they ever referred to with pronouns in the show itself?