I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
Angry babby
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't see any problems, TBH.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Besides the reference to other shows, yeah, but otherwise it does explain why a dramatic moment comes across as funny.
Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 13th 2021 at 2:37:49 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I'm not a big fan of how it's relying on a reference to another work. Like, it actually works for me personally - I know exactly what it's referring to and (as someone who will but hasn't yet watched Foundation) can easily understand how it could make for a legit Narm example - but on general practices I'm pretty sure it's not okay.
Edited by nrjxll on Oct 13th 2021 at 1:04:44 PM
Yeah having seen the episode myself, I would cut it. It just sounds like one troper complaining.
Bringing up the following examples from Ghosts Can't Do It:
- Narm:
- The Title Drop during the scene where Kate is coming to terms with Scott's death really undermines what could be quite a poignant moment (well, that and Bo Derek's acting).
- Just about any scene involving the ghostly Scott. It looks more like they got footage of Anthony Quinn performing a stand-up comedy routine and randomly spliced it into the film.
- Zero context example, comment out until it can be explained how Bo Derek's acting makes that scene unintentionally funny.
- I don't know the context of this. It could stay if most of the scenes involving the ghost are supposed to be dramatic.
Bringing up the following examples from Injustice (2021):
- Narm:
- When Superman steals Green Lantern's ring, Hal was making a fist which didn't change. Cue jokes about how Superman removed the ring but was courteous enough to put his hand back into a fist.
- Nightwing's death is impossible to take seriously. What happens is that he is accidentally killed by Damien when he throws a baton at his temple. Since Nightwing has fought villains with super-strength, him getting taken out in such a simple way looks ridiculous.
- Batman declaring he won't let Superman be Easily Forgiven is rendered hilarious due to the fact he says this while standing alongside Harley Quinn. The woman who helped kickstart all of this by mass-murder and was easily forgiven for it.
He/Him
1. Not narmy to me
2. Needs more context for those unfamiliar with the work.
3. Again, needs more context.
Edited by Acebrock on Oct 20th 2021 at 3:17:11 AM
My troper wall
All three read as Fridge Logic flaws and I think can be cut.
Bringing up the following examples from The New 52: Futures End:
- Narm: Even by this series' frankly bizarre and pointless storyline, Brother Eye surviving in Lois' cellphone (which is not explicitly modified or anything) is contrived and idiotic.
- There's also the title itself, which is fairly cool until you realise the egregious typo.
- The absolutely ridiculous designs of the roboticized heroes and villains, such as:
- Batgirl's upper body attached to the Bat-Signal. It's never explained what the purpose of this is supposed to be.
- Constantine, for some reason, still having a cigarette in his mouth.
- Black Canary's head attached to Frankenstein's torso, mainly for all the Fridge Logic on how that's supposed to work.
- Wonder Woman's hands and forearms being replaced with giant-ass knives (which defeats the purpose of assimilating her, because she now lacks opposable digits and the indestructible bracelets that have come to define her), and everything below her waist being replaced with a a giant robotic bug abdomen... thing.
- Green Lantern's head separated from his shoulders by two elongated, robotic necks that jut out from his body at awkward angles.
- Hawkman probably gets the worst of it all: he's reduced to just a giant, metal ball with Hawkman's wings and one arm attached.
- The sheer fact that Amazo was assimilated and similarly modified to the organic characters, despite already being an android.
- The comic also takes Deathstroke's "Neutral Evil Only in It for the Money Wild Card" attitude to its (il)logical conclusion when Deathstroke is revealed to be working for Brother Eye in the present because Eye offered him access to every bank account in the world.
The Brother Eye example is incorrectly indented and is pure complaining. Cut it.
- Not a moment, so not an example. Also, it's not a typo.
- Not moments, and complaining. Cut all of them.
- Complaining. Cut.
I would like to discuss the Nightwing example that was removed from Injustice. There is no Fridge Logic involved; the scene in question is unintentionally funny because his death is just plain silly. Nightwing's anticlimactic demise has been an object of mockery ever since it was first shown in the comic books, as its mundane nature clashes with the work's otherwise dark tone and over the top violence. As such, I think it could be re-added to the page.
Showtime!
The cyborg's designs are meant to be terrifying Body Horror, but they're mostly just silly, so I think they could count with a rewrite
Okay, but Narm is only for moments. For ridiculous designs, Nightmare Retardant would be the appropriate trope. Although some of these look more like Fridge Logic, namely Black Canary, Amazo, Batgirl and Constantine.
They're still not moments. We have various "bad design" tropes that would be a better fit.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by nrjxll on Oct 21st 2021 at 9:57:48 AM
On Old's YMMV page i feel like this example is kind of misrepresenting the scene
I feel like she's trying to take a step back and go over what just happened cause the birth and death happened too fast to process, like it was literally just seconds.
It reads as just a Fridge nitpick too. It doesn't say what's funny, it just makes a snarky observation. I think you can cut it.
Hey, has anyone had a look at Miraculous Ladybug? Because the narm section for that is a mess.
He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
I’m here, I guess.
These Narm entries from The Maze Runner, except for maybe the second one, are clearly just story complaints.
- Narm: Unfortunately, the books are rife with these moments.
- In The Scorch Trials, take a shot every time a chapter includes or ends with Thomas passing out and/or falling asleep. It gets to the point where the vast majority of character interactions and, frankly, plot development are all offscreen while the reader is treated to some more flashback dreams.
- Also in the Scorch Trials, almost any character who isn't Thomas, Minho, Brenda, Aris, Frypan or Newt gets no description, no significant dialogue and not even names. Out of the 20 Gladers the book starts with, Thomas interacts with almost none of them. Non-Glader characters are only referred to by the most prominent feature on their body (Blondie, Ratmannote , etc). The author really wasn't concerned about introducing new or particularly memorable characters.
- In The Death Cure, the revelation that Teresa and the other escapade Gladers were captured immediately after getting to Denver and accomplished absolutely nothing after being off page for two-thirds of the book is a bit disappointing.
Also these from the My Hero Academia page.
- My Hero Academia
- The revelation that Yoarashi harbors a serious grudge with Todoroki because he and Endeavor were each rude to him once. That prompted him to move another school halfway across the country to get away from him and drives him to pick a fight in the middle of their provisional hero license exam.
- Eri trying to smile, and then saying that she doesn't know how to during Mirio and Midoriya's visit in the hospital. It's supposed to be a tragic scene to highlight the lasting effects of her trauma, but it's so over the top melodramatic that it's hard to take seriously.
Maybe the last one for My Hero Academia counts, but all the rest seem to be misuse.
Bringing up the following examples from Dear Evan Hansen:
- Narm:
- Several reviews note that due to the film cutting several songs, the ones that are left occur sporadically enough that you might have come close to forgetting the film is a musical each time they happen. One review even said that with "Words Fail," she actually thought for a moment that Evan really was singing in-universe as Confusion Fu to keep the Murphys from yelling at him.
- Evan reading Ready Player One due to it being one of Connor's favorite books just reeks of a desperate Were Still Relevant Dammit that missed the mark by several years, with many viewers commenting that it fits a little too well with how the book has fallen out of favor with its unquestioning portrayal of nerds obsessed with the '80s as the true heroes of the world.
Angry babby
The first sounds like "falls flat" and the second might maybe count as it's a dramatic moment that does look funny cuz the book has a cringe reputation.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Bringing up the following example from Firestorm (DC Comics):
- Narm: Among the changes the New 52 run makes is turning the Hyena from a supervillain to a bunch of mercenaries who snort drugs before going on missions.
Just reads as "I don't like this particular thing" and doesn't say why it's funny. Cut.
Bringing up the following examples from Forever Evil (2013):
- Narm:
- In Issue 1, Ultraman's Does This Remind You of Anything? moment with Green K. It's probably meant to be disturbing, but comes across as hilarious.
- The end of issue 1 features Ultraman pushing the moon to create a solar eclipse.
- While arguing with Ultraman in Issue 2, Johnny Quick gives us this gem:
Johnny Quick: So unclench that indestructible anus and get that coal-turned-diamond out of your ass!
- Justice League #24 makes it painfully clear that Ultraman's parents are evil versions of Jor-El (Jor-Il in Earth-3) and Lara.
Lara: This is all your fault, Jor-Il.Jor-Il: Just shut up and die, Lara.
- Much later, we see infant Kal-Il crash land near Johnny and Martha Kent's home, here as two petty criminals and drug addicts. The first thing Kal-Il does is vaporize Johnny's hand with his heat vision and then clearly state "You two. You will be my parents now." Ultraman mentions he killed them when he was seven and razed the farm to the ground.
- Issue 5 ends with the cliffhanger reveal of what destroyed the Crime Syndicate's original world: a big red crack in the sky. Readers were either unimpressed or reminded of Doctor Who.
Brining up the following example from Foundation (2021):