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The trope page itself says,
This note on the main That One Boss page would seem to be the current standard for when a Final Boss or Wake-Up Call Boss should be on the page.
Just cut that note down that neither can be this AT ALL.
Huge generalization but progression wise
That One Boss is
edited 9th Jul '17 9:05:49 AM by Memers
If I recall correctly, that note's been on the page for quite a while now, so I don't think it should be cut down without discussion. I don't know what sort of discussion took place to get that note up there in the first place, but it shouldn't be deleted just like that until more people have weighed in.
When was it added? It's part of what is heavily screwing up this trope and examples... looking at them I see Final Bosses just scattered in cause they are just kinda hard.
And every single Wake-Up Call Boss ever is on this and those can not be an example the way everything else on the page is written. Wake-Up Call Boss and That One Boss should be mutually exclusive due to game design of what comes before and after said boss..
edited 9th Jul '17 9:11:51 AM by Memers
Going by the history page, that note has been around since at least November 2013. Since the history page doesn't extend beyond April 2013, it's potentially been around for much longer. I say keep it.
edited 9th Jul '17 9:18:11 AM by chasemaddigan
What I'd see as a boss that's both That One Boss and Wake-Up Call Boss is something like if the difficulty progression of bosses is something like 1-3-5-9-10-45-23-26-30, with the one at 45 difficulty being both tropes. It's both stupidly difficult for its place, and it marks the beginning of tougher bosses.
Likewise, for That One Boss and Final Boss, it'd be something like 1-3-5-9-25 (you'd expect the Final Boss in that case to be something like 10-15).
Looking at the pages, one restriction we should add to the That One Boss page is that Self-Imposed Challenge isn't a reason to add a boss to the page (with a similar justification to not allowing a Bonus Boss); that will allows us to remove bosses with descriptions that say "X is hard in New Game+" or "X is hard if you are doing buster only no-damage" or "X is hard in Final Mix Critical Mode".
Those examples are pointless. "This boss is hard if you make it hard by restricting yourself," is kind of self evident.
edited 9th Jul '17 1:21:33 PM by AnotherDuck
Technical question: how is a conclusion on what measures to implement (if any) is reached? Does doing something like turning TOB/TOL into Complete Monster knockoffs (in the "needs to go through the thread" sense) require mod approval?
So that 23-26-30 can not exist like that, that is misuse, it would go 10-45-47-50-55. That is a real example of a Wake-Up Call Boss.
For example in Shin Megami Tensei III Nocturne people call Matador a Wake-Up Call Boss cause you gotta level grind and rebuild your team to match his element and every boss in the game after him you have to do the same thing. Before hand the bosses were largely easy and you could get away with having a non-optimal team.
edited 9th Jul '17 6:32:16 PM by Memers
No. Wake-Up Call Boss does not require the following bosses to follow the pattern exactly. It just needs to symbolise a steep increase in difficulty for the following game. Or as the trope says, when the game stops being easy.
"Its stops being easy", that is what makes it not be That One Boss. That One Boss is an out of place difficulty spike boss. If it is still hard after the boss, which it has to be to be a Wake-Up Call Boss, then it can not be a That One Boss.
"Hard" is not a single, uniform difficulty. It's possible to have something harder than that. You're describing something I didn't.
@Memers: Demyx has been brought up as an example of somebody who's considered both a Warm-Up Boss (since he introduces the level of difficulty of Organization XIII bosses) and a That One Boss (since Dance Water Dance is That One Attack). Do you think he's a Warm-Up Boss, That One Boss, both, or neither?
He isn't in any way a Warm-Up Boss, that is a boss at the end of the first level or tutorial giving you a full taste of the game but is usually not actually too difficult. In KH 2 Roxas' fight with Axel is a textbook example of that trope. It uses all the mechanics you just learned, 2 keyblades, timing counters, you can die and is very flashy but not really that hard. A good novice skill check for the game's mechanics.
Demyx is That One Boss because he stands out as a fight being damn hard, cheaply so, harder than anything else around that point in the game and long after.
The game itself is not brought up to Demyx's level after his fight too unlike what would be required for a Wake-Up Call Boss as well. He is just a blip on the radar not the sign of an invasion.
edited 10th Jul '17 5:36:56 AM by Memers
Bleh: I mean to put Wakeup Call Boss, not Warmup Boss.
Also, the first Demyx encounter isn't hard at all. The second Demyx encounter is the one everybody is talking about. (Unless you are talking about Demyx's Data Org fight, which is a Bonus Boss and therefore irrelevant.) Xaldin isn't that far after that Demyx fight.
edited 10th Jul '17 5:17:39 AM by thok
I forgot that the final encounter was a bonus boss, corrected it.
Here is the thing, look at the That One Boss subpage Atlus... for example the Shin Megami Tensei III Nocturne section has 22 bosses listed that is more than half the bosses in the damn game... including the True Final Boss and the Wake-Up Call Boss.
Matador is the Wake-Up Call Boss of that game he signals the true difficulty of the game and the upcoming 20+ hardass bosses, he shouldn't even be on that page let alone the page image however he is a stellar example of a Wake-Up Call Boss.
I know that the game is Nintendo Hard and fans like it but it's just attempted gloating at this point and the rest of the page is even worse.
edited 10th Jul '17 6:28:32 AM by Memers
Yeah, if a game is Nintendo Hard, any boss should be judged against that standard (or whatever difficulty the game is). If you think more than half the bosses of a game qualify, you probably don't reach the target skill the devs intended.
edited 10th Jul '17 10:06:04 AM by AnotherDuck
So I just read the whole Fire Emblem section, and howdy there's a lot of things to clean.
Following what i've seen on this thread (warning, huge wall of texte ahead):
-The very first example of the page is out of place for multiple reasons. It sarts as a generalization in the series, except very obviously Examples Are Not General and certainly not That One Boss . Then it tries to talk about a sepcific case (the fight against selena in sacred stones). First, the sub bullet point right after that is Conversation Onthe Main Page , but it also explain quite well why the selena fight don't fit the description : it's really easy to abuse the IA by baiting it to attack an unit it can't one shot (and it's not hard to find), healing it, rinse and repeat until the weapon's broken.
I'd say cut entirely and, if there's actually a boss that deserve that mention because of that gimmick, to add it as a proper example.
Shadow dragon :
-on merciless mode -I'd say cut, as obviously something on the hardest difficulty is going to be hard. The example tries to claim one of the bosses mentionned is that one boss on every difficulty, though, so it might be worth rephrasing. From personnal experience of the game I don't even remember struggling with those bosses in normal difficulties, but if someone can make a convincing case about it, I'm nobody to say they're wrong. They probably would be more of a Wake-Up Call Boss than a That One Boss, though, considering it's the very beginning of the game.
-The Camus entry of the NES game seems fairly legit, but I haven't played the original to be sure.
New mystery of the emblem
-The katarina entry is legit, the reasoning is solid and I can confirm from personnal experience it was the hardest part of the game bar nothing, and it was because of her.
The mention of lunatic could be cut if we consider it's obvious a That One Boss stays That One Boss in higher difficulties unless mentionned otherwise, but that's it.
-much less sure for the Ahtena/Jeorge entry, as in practice as long as you can swarm the boss (and it's not hard to do so), they aren't tanky enough to survive long enough to kill one of your units, but I won't argue much for that one, I just have zero memories of that chapter unlike the previous one.
-"The two final bosses in lunatic" cut on the principle that self imposed challenges situations don't count for that trope.
not much to say here since I didn't played the games.
-The Chapter 7 entry seem either poorly written or not an example to me, as the example state that you can essentially bypass the issue by killing the boss with Shannan before he get his tome. Not sure if missing the Balmung is a self challenge or something easy to miss, but when i'm done reading the example, the only thing I think is "sooooo that's not a problem then, no ?" and that's not a good sign.
-the next three example seems fine to me.
-The Julius example falls victim to the same problem than the first. It starts fine enough, but then comes the part with Julia. The example becomes basically "this is hard if you don't do it the intended way of wrecking him with Julia and the Naga tome". that's a self imposed challenge, i'd say cut on principle. Not to mention he's the final boss, so he's expected to be hard.
nothing to say about thracia 776, it seems fine to me(can't confirm again tho, those tow are the only I haven't played at all).
-Sword of seals :
"In general, Seals is extraordinarily cruel about weapon accuracy, which is a large part of the frustration. Some axes have a base hit of 50% or worse. The throne that nearly every boss sits on also provides the aforementioned Avoid boost of 30%."
-Examples are not general. The first point must be cut.
-Chapter 7 :"if you're playing on hard mode" cut on principle.
The leygance entry seems fine, the Henning one even more. Except...
-"Murdock is basically Leygance on steroids. " So, following the "1 boss per game and reason to be hard", Leygance needs to be cut.
Blazing sword :
-I'm not far enough into the game to confirm, so it's a simple question : which version of four fanged offense is the one you tend to find in a normal playthrough ? The stated requirement is "sum of eliwood, hector and lyn's level >=50", and according to wiki, it's the 23th chapter, so almost end of the game, so it seems to me the version of the level that is described as that one boss is something you wouldn't see in a casual playthrough. Sooooo i'd say cut, but I won't argue too much though.
"The boss rush in the final chapter, especially linus and lloyd". If a boss rush that's not even the actual boss of the level can count, that's fine, otherwise cut and maybe move to That One Level .
-The zoldam entry is a long "it's hard to do if you try to s-rank it, and super hard in HHM". self imposed challenge, cut on principle. the boss is even otpionnal as the goal to survive, so that's about as relevant to say that takumi is hard in conquest chapter 10. Yeah, that's probably because you're not meant to beat him.
Vaida is potholed to SNK Boss and isn't even a boss you have to kill to finish the chapter. Cut on principle, move it to SNK Boss if the claim is true.
-The Maxime entry might need to be trimmed. The "he's even harder in HHM" part can be cut, unless we can account for the change of behavior make him even harder in HHM, even by the standards of the mode. His status as a boss could be contested as he's just a named enemy in the chapter (since Ursula's the actual boss) but I think that would be going a bit too far for the definition. Or if it doesn't belong here, it needs to be moved elsewhere. Boss in Mook Clothing, maybe ?
-Sacred Stones :
-I hugely disagree with the calleach&Valter entry as from personnal experience, Joshua soloed Caellach without breaking a sweat and Cormag killed Valter without problems. Though I won't argue much for that if I get told people legitimately struggled with those two, I might simply have had a really good joshua/cormag /grinded them too much.
-The Beran entry seems legit to me as I vaguely remember having a problem or two against him, but since the boss can be skipped, does he qualify ? or does that make him a Bonus Boss who's disqualified from that trope by default ?
Path of Radiance :
-Ashnard isn't too hard by final bosses standards and hard mode fall into self imposed challenge, i'd say cut.
For the Black knight, i'm not entirely sure. Though it IS a luck-based mission, the numbers aren't unforgiving. it's easy to max out ike's relevants stats by the time you reach the mission, ether has 28% chance to tirgger since it's still skill% in this game unlike radiant dawn, you get something like 10 hits on the boss overall, and you can largely win if it triggers twice. it's not that unlikely to win. Personally, I never lost against that boss. Now, to the merit of the example, I know a lot of people who says he is a real problem so maybe i've just been lucky, and it IS by far the hardest boss of the game, berserk Ashnard notwithstanding, so if we judge this by the game's difficulty standards it probably qualifies.
Radiant Dawn :
-3-10 is more a That One Level . The problem is keeping elincia alive against bow users, not the boss himself who's nothing to write home about.
-Dheginsea is also more That One Level and That One Attack than a problematic boss in itself. He does hits hard and you'd better not trigger his mastery skill, alright, but snipers like rolf and shinon whill decimate his HP, and you are forced to have a heron on the map, who can grant a second turn to them. From personnal experience, i've seen Rolf doing 2/3 of the overall damage to the boss, and it's not hard to have a few people finishing the job (Caineghis, Ike...). The only real problem with this is his Ao E attack that hits harder the closer you are, which makes is That One Attack. It could stay an example, but it could use some trimming.
- I'd say cut Sephiran. The example makes a big deal of the spirits guarding him, but it's easy to get rid of them once you know you need to, he can be killed quickly once they're out of the way and he doesn't hit hard enough to kill a well trained unit in a single attack.
-Ashera is a Final boss. Now, she might be the toughest Fire emblem boss I've seen in the series, at least from personnal opinion, so she could still qualify, but she isn't horribly hard by Radiant Dawn standards, it's essentially Spehiran with more resilient barriers (and more of them to break) and more varied attacks. I'd lean towards keeping it, but not by much.
As a general note, every mention of hard mode/lunatic could be cut(self imposed challenge and so on), and that would trim half of the entry in itself.
now, more specifically :
I just don't agree for Gangrel, Wallhart and Validar being these. they might be forces to be reckoned and Climax Boss , but they're not a actual spike in difficulty that leagues above what you've seen before and will see after. especillay Validar, who essentially got ignis'd to death by my avatar in my playthrough on hard.
-The level with Aversa before Validar is not this trope either, but That One Level at best. the difficulty is explicitely not the boss here, but the deadlords that are the mooks of the chapter. and even them aren't as impressive as the example like to say. move to that one level or cut.
"Three words: LUNATIC MODE GRIMA " three words : "Self imposed challenge." Three other words : "Not an example". On top of that, he's the final boss so that's to be expected.
Fire Emblem Fates :
Haitaka seems like a legitimate example to me, as a boss who's statistically too imposing for the chapter he's fought in. the part about hard, lunatic and capturing him all fall to self-imposed challenge, though. I'd say trim.
I'm more reserved for Kotaro. the ninja cave is That One Level for sure, but the boss himself isn't something you can't overcome by throwing your best units at him and not taking useless risks. The most compelling thing I have to say about him being That One Boss is that it's a pain to kill him before Saizo reach him, and he will likely die fighting him. Although as an NPC unit, keeping him alive is Self-Imposed Challenge, which is not that trope.
-I agree for Iago and Hans, this chapter was even harder than the final battle to me because so many thing can go wrong so many times in this one. Although I must say that the bosses aren't the worst part of it. Iago killed me with a critical out of nowhere and hans is a threat, but it's really the level as a whole that is hard. Although that staff savant skill is a legitimate problem.
-Yukimura. "manageable, but in hard and lunatic" -Cut on principle.
-The Ryoma Entry is a legitimate one and you really need an overlevelled avatar to be able to reliably kill him. But the example need A LOT of trimming. We don't care about the spoiler reasons for why he wants us dead, it has nothing to do there and it just make the example unpleasant to read.
-the Takumi example might need some discussion. I disagree for the chapter 13 mention, at this point he's a tough but manageable unit (who tend to rush your army alone since he cross the river without being slowed down, so your strongest units can take him down before he becomes a problem) and he's not even the boss of the chapter. Chapter 23 is a more legitimate one, but he isn't absurdely harder than what comes before and what comes after. Again, I won't argue too much about that.
-The final boss... same than for Ashera. He's legitmately hard even by final boss standards, and his bold stance skill really hammers the point. Although in the end I still killed him in about two rounds of fight with my avatar. The hard part was to get to him. So, I'd say That One Level, although Takumi's laser beam that regularly forces you to hide behind the walls is one of the reasons the level is hard.
I'd say keep, but not too sure.
-No, just no for Anankos as the final boss of revelation, though. It falls in the final boss category, he isn't absurdely hard by those standards.
Nothing to say about the tear ring saga, although I'm not sure they're supposed to be there.
edited 10th Jul '17 11:19:32 AM by Yumil
Tear Ring Saga shouldn't be on that page. TRS is owned by different people.
Agreed with Tear Ring Saga. The game is a Spiritual Successor to Fire Emblem made by the same creator but by a different company, and not actually part of the Fire Emblem series itself. I think Tear Ring Saga should be removed from the page.
edited 11th Jul '17 11:52:14 AM by DivineFlame100
alright, moved the tear ring saga examples to Turn-Based Strategy and oooooooooooow.
I'll wait for more opinions about the rest of the fire emblem page before editing things.
And now i'm afraid for the rest of the section if things like the XCOM case is a common thing.
edit : oh god dammit I've tried to read the nintendo wars section of the page and here we are, with examples mixing up that one boss and that one level. I'm not delving deeper into this until the rest is sorted out, but we've got more than a fair share of work ahead of us.
edited 11th Jul '17 12:48:48 PM by Yumil
I've found that RosenkreuzStilette (that Mega Man doujinshi platformer) has an entire page dedicated to its bosses, with each game having seven examples. The problem here is that whoever created this page missed the point entirely that the games are just Nintendo Hard in general, so the hard bosses are to be expected. Take a look at the list:
Ah, yes, Rosenkreuzstilette. This franchise brings so much nostalgia to those who have played the classic Mega Man and Castlevania games. As a tribute to the difficulty of said games, you can be sure that it has some despicably tough bosses that you'd find within the different adventures in the series. In fact, these guys and girls are the main reason why this series is Nintendo Hard, and why many players have been humiliated with several references to classic computer and video games on their respective stages' Game Over screens. As a rule of thumb, Grolla and Pamela's versions are harder by default with their damage output doubled and use of melee attacks that require close-up tactics. They'll be mentioned however if differences are notable enough to change the strategy of the fight.
Out of all the examples on the first game, I would say that the Deviled Egg (an Expy of the Yellow Devil) is considered to be That One Boss because even with the knowledge of its weakness, dodging its body segments requires very quick reaction times and its very easy to mess up here and die. Many players consider it THE hardest boss in the game for the same reasons as the Yellow Devil, so I would say cut all examples from the first game except the Deviled Egg. I haven't played the second game though, so I can't say which is considered That One Boss from that game. What are your thoughts?
edited 11th Jul '17 1:40:50 PM by DivineFlame100
Having played the first game and not the second, I'd leave Grolla and possibly Traure in there since they're both a giant pain in the ass. Everything else can go though.
By the way, I went and trimmed down the That One Boss section of Sonic the Hedgehog. Notify me if I did something wrong.
edited 11th Jul '17 1:48:09 PM by ElloMe
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