Is this an example?

I would have to reread the trope description carefully to be sure, but this is what I see the narrative role as:

A number of nations are struggling to survive. They band together in the alliance. The alliance becomes a political force that fights the Empire.

Well, in NATO's case (and that of several examples of the trope that I came across), there is indeed struggle, albeit a rather metaphorical one where it's the threat of The Empire (namely, the Soviet Union) deciding that its newly acquired satellite states aren't enough to satisfy its ambition, that caused the countries to band together as a preemptive measure against potential aggression. It's just that NATO was lucky it didn't have to actually fight, unlike several fictional examples of the trope that went through a similar situation, or the NATO of those fictional works where the Cold War indeed led to World War III.

... And then there's the fact that the European members were kinda exhausted from the last world war that they had just finished wrapping up. So yeah, they were already struggling to rebuild themselves when they realized that their big neighbour is looking at them funny that perhaps awfully reminded them of how a certain world war's instigator looked at them.

edited 27th May '16 6:10:28 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

The above narrative role can apply to NATO, including what actually happened in real life. The problem is, in order for NATO in story A to be the alliance, NATO must fill the narrative role of the alliance inside story A's narrative. Otherwise, NATO's the alliance history is just implied backstory. And therefore should not be used as an example. Because it is not an example that appears in the work itself.

And that is what I essentially meant by "featured prominently" in my first post on this topic; AFAIK to have NATO play a major role in a story, you would have to pit it (and the NATO-aligned protagonists, naturally) against an opponent that poses a credible threat to said military alliance, typically either the Soviet Union in Cold War-era works, a expansionistically resurgent Russia in post-Cold War works, Communist China (or the much less plausible North Korea, for those who wish to avoid Banned in China), some other rogue state, or an unusually dangerous and powerful terrorist organization (which may or may not be a stand-in for Al Qaeda/Taliban/Daesh). And yes, I know some of those choices are geographically distant from Europe; apparently a considerable number of fiction-makers don't care about such minor annoyances as logistics and/or relevance of venture to one's strategic interests.

Thank you for your clarifications, for they were quite informative and helpful.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I've seen at least one story where NATO was basically just the Generic Military Organisation. Probably a cheap disaster movie produced in canada.

Reposting these from two pages ago, since when I originally posted them 12 days ago I didn't get any responses:

Literature.The Maze Runner:

• Amnesiac Dissonance: Thomas is so afraid of having to deal with this that he constantly refuses even the possibility of having his memories restored. He gets his way and he never actually learns what kind of person he was.
• Deceased Parents Are the Best: As revealed in The Fever Code prologue, Newt had nice parents ready to give their lives for their child.

YMMV.The Book Of Life:

• Broken Base: Audiences are divided over the pacing, the multiple stories, the use of a modern soundtrack in a historical setting, and the comedy. Nobody can deny that the art itself is incredible.

YMMV.Dragons Lexicon Triumvirate:

• Critical Research Failure: The author tries to make Dennagon seem smart by making him recite scientific facts. This backfires at times, such as when he claims that "velocity is distance multiplied by time".
• Narm: Dennagon is supposed to be portrayed as smart, but it's hard to take seriously when he makes mistakes like "velocity is distance multiplied by time". No, this mistake wasn't played for laughs, or even pointed out.

YMMV.Divergent:

• Critical Backlash: The films are usually on many critics' 'Worst of X Year' lists, and "still better than Divergent" is often used to describe other movies based off YA books. Some understandably don't find the movies to be that bad. Even The Nostalgia Chick said that while she didn't like it, she thought it was significantly better than other YA movies.

Franchise Zombie:

• The Transformers Film Series has bruises with this. The sole reason why Paramount continues to make the films is due to pressure from Hasbro, the manufacturer for the toy franchise, as toy sales of the Transformers skyrocket every time the movies come out. It didn't really matter if people liked the movies or not, because Hasbro only wants the series to continue as long as the toys keep selling.

Would it be an Invoked Trope example of Big Bad if a Well-Intentioned Extremist knows for certain that Scary Dogmatic Aliens will invade Earth in a few decades, but nobody would believe him since he can't actually prove it with incontrovertible evidence, and determines that the most feasible/reliable way to prepare the world for said invasion is for him to use his own resources and personal talent/skills to become Public Enemy #1 to the entire world (whether as an Evil Overlord, a Diabolical Mastermind, or some other kind of Big Bad), and prove himself to be such a threat that the various governments are forced to invest heavily in military R&D, with him deliberately doing things that would encourage their research to go in particular directions that would be indispensible for improving their chances at fending off the alien invaders?

That doesn't sound like "featured prominently" to me, but thanks for noting it.

edited 29th May '16 6:32:08 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Andrix:

Maze runner, first looks OK. Second, try to cut down how much is in the spoiler tag. At a minimum you can probably show which particular story makes the reveal.

Book of Life, the final sentence about the art is irrelevant to the example. The rest looks OK.

Dragons Lexicon. First seems OK, but no go on the Narm. There is nothing in that example that even implies that "velocity is distance multiplied by time" is supposed to be a big dramatic moment.

Divergent seems OK.

Franchise Zombie. Unless there is pretty solid evidence to back up the claim that Paramount wants to stop making them, that needs to go... not many companies are going to say "the last one made a billion dollars, but we really don't want to make any more".

Greetings everyone! I have a few edits in mind for Archie Comics Sonic The Hedgehog that I want want input on before even thinking of adding them

YMMV.Archie Comics' Sonic The Hedgehog

• Broken Base:
  • There is a notable split growing between fans in regards to Shattered World Crisis and how it fares as the comics' adaptation to Sonic Unleashed. Many don't mind the changes made to the story of Unleashed or its elements, with most finding them an acceptable way to integrate the events of Unleashed into the comics' universe. Some of them even view Shattered World as an Adaptation Expansion of Unleashed, namely with the inclusion of the rest of the Sonic cast. However, a good number of people have expressed disappointment or outright disapproval of most of the changes made to the plot and elements of Unleashed, finding them either unnecessary or even disrespectful to the original narrative. There are also those who view Shattered World as an In Name Only adaptation of Unleashed, citing how the elements and characters of the game have vastly reduced roles and prominence while more focus is paid to comic-exclusive characters, world building, and stories that tend to have little to do with the original game (such as the Champions Arc, which is also the adaptation of a completely different game). It doesn't help that Ian Flynn admitted on a few occasions that Shattered World is meant to be an incredibly loose adaptation and is only being done as an "excuse" to set up the Reboot world, prompting some fans to question why he did not just make a completely original plot if that was going to be the case instead of wasting the events and characters of Unleashed in the comics.

Characters.Archie Comics' Sonic The Hedgehog Freedom Fighters

Cream the Rabbit & Cheese

• Adaptational Wimp: Applies mostly to Cheese but Cream herself suffers from this as well. In the games, Cream is no less capable than any other playable character and is fully willing to partake in fights despite her dislike of violence. Meanwhile Cheese is strong enough to one-shot enemies and deal regular damage to bosses, which is saying a lot considering most other Chao are not anywhere near that strong. Here in the comics, however, Cheese is significantly weaker as his attacks do nothing more than distract enemies and he seems to daze himself in the process. While it remains to be seen if Cream is actually combat capable or not, she is much less willing to fight than her game counterpart and mostly takes part in battles by airlifting people out of harm's way.
• Big Damn Heroes: In 267, when the Freedom Fighters (sans Sonic) fell into Eggman's trap and were ambushed by three E-100 Series robots with no hope for escape, Cream gathered the remaining Freedom Fighters (Big, T-Pup, and Omochao) and went out to rescue everyone, which proved successful. Were it not for Cream, the rest of the Freedom Fighters very likely would have died.
• Free-Range Children: Cream is one of the few characters, and the only one from the games, with a known parent: Vanilla the Rabbit. Even though she is one of the youngest and most innocent characters, Cream is fully allowed by her mother to go on various adventures and travel across the world.
• Underestimating Badassery: Constantly on the receiving end of this by Sally. While Cream isn't a very active combatant and isn't as experienced as the other Freedom Fighters (except Big), she is still a capable team member despite her age and demeanor and has taken part in numerous adventures in the past. But despite her participation in those events, among other things that prove her worth as an ally, Cream is kept strictly out of the action by Sally due to her age and concern for her safety, which is a bit unwarranted since Cream keeps others safe far more often than not. Even after the aforementioned Big Damn Heroes moment, Sally continues to keep Cream out of the action under the belief she is not ready. Though this finally seems to be changing as of 281.

Characters.Archie Comics' Sonic The Hedgehog Time And Space Travelers

Blaze the Cat

• Adaptational Wimp: While just as much an Action Girl as her game counterpart, this version of Blaze gets knocked unconscious on a rather common basis, typically from getting caught off-guard from behind. Blaze also got kidnapped four times throughout the comic, which doesn't happen nearly as much, if at all, to her game counterpart.

Characters.Archie Comics' Sonic The Hedgehog Citizens Of Mobotropolis

Vanilla the Rabbit

• Actual Pacifist: Unlike her own daughter, Vanilla doesn't willingly get involved in any form of action.
• Good Parent
• Humanoid Female Mobian: Has a distinctly more human build than most of the other Mobian characters.
• Open-Minded Parent: Seems to be the case. Why else does she let her six-year-old child roam around the world and get involved in all sorts of adventures? Though, to be fair, Cream is constantly under the watch and protection of the world's most famous and powerful heroes.

edited 29th May '16 8:27:22 PM by FullestOfFools

Hey there, this is my first post on the forums. I was looking at the page for the Talisman board game and had some ideas for expanding it. I wanted to run them by the veterans first, though, so here they are:

Kids are Cruel: Not directly, but the Goblin Baby event from The Nether Realm summons every monster from every region to your square.

Epic Flail: The Flail weapon, which can be purchased for 5 gold in The City expansion, is one of the better weapons in the game for the purposes of raw power. In physical combat, the player wielding it rolls two dice, and adds them together. In addition, if the player rolls doubles, the opponent cannot roll any attack dice. The only downside to the weapon is that it does not count as a magical weapon, and is thus vulnerable to the Transmute spell from The Reaper and cannot defeat the Living Statue enemy from The Dungeon. Luckily, The Reaper also offers a spell to make weapons magical, so this can be circumvented.

Kaizo Trap: The Horrible Black Void alternate ending from The Blood Moon causes the player who triggers it to instantly lose the game and destroys all their objects before replacing the ending with another facedown alternate ending. The only way to avoid it is to have someone else trigger it first, but depending on the ending that is actually there, that option could be just as bad or even worse.

How do these sound?

Yeah, that's a clear cut case of invoked.

I think you would be better served asking Sonic the Hedgehog fans about those examples in the appropriate media threads. They look okay to me though.

Except: Don't post that Zero Context Example.

Your second and third examples are good, but I believe external links are not supposed to go in examples normally.

Oh, I see. Sorry for bringing them up in this thread then, I thought this was the only place where one can bring up "examples" they plan to add for anything.

Just to make absolute certain, are you referring to the Good Parents as the "Zero Context Example"? Or are you referring to one of the other examples? ^note I admit, I keep thinking that I should probably post a link to an instance of Word of God mentioned in the Broken Base example as proof I'm sorry if the Zero Context Example is completely obvious, I'm very new at this ^^;

EDIT- Actually, nevermind. I can see that you were referring to Good Parents. Though I will simply add context to it instead of removing it.

edited 30th May '16 8:12:06 AM by FullestOfFools

External links are fine, the example just can't depend on them for context.

Would it also count as a Subverted Trope example of Big Bad at the same time?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Thanks to and . I'll be sure to update the page and thanks for the information on external links. I wasn't 100% sure on external links and our exact policy, so I'll keep that in mind!

With Istanbul (Not Constantinople) there are a lot of 'inspired by' examples listed like Pokemon regions or ships named after countries/regions instead of fictional names for real countries/regions. Those strike me as something else entirely from the trope.

edited 30th May '16 3:47:01 PM by Memers

I'm not sure if work and character pages are allowed here. But I have a question regarding a certain duo in Final Fantasy VI.

I;m sure Final Fantasy and Star Wars fans know of Biggs and Wedge and that Final Fantasy ha use those names from Star Wars. VI was the first Final Fantasy game where this Shout-Out Theme Naming convention appeared, as characters with these names were aiding one of the protagonist right at the beginning. The reason I'm bringing it up here is well, these two are soldiers for the Evil Empire, while their namesakes were Luke Skywalker's fellow rebel pilots. Is this a case of Ironic Name?

edited 30th May '16 10:13:31 PM by MorningStar1337

That is tougher. I think I would need even more details than you gave. But I would say that usually, no. The trope actually occurred in the work. The person playing the Big Bad was actually being the Big Bad.

The pokemon examples count, if you buy the that pokemon regions exist on a parallel earth. But I don't see how that is true.

edited 30th May '16 10:15:09 PM by war877

Except that he was technically pretending to be a Big Bad, with no intention whatsoever to actually win unless he has no choice (e.g. if the governments prove themselves to be incapable of standing up to him, and thus far from being able to face the future alien threat).

Take Lelouch Lamperouge from Code Geass as an example. The guy deliberately made himself out by the very end of the story as an utterly evil tyrant, and had the entire world under his heel, only to be finally assassinated by Zero (who was really the purportedly-dead Suzaku Kururugi in disguise)... except that was his plan all along: to embody everything that is evil about a ruler in his person, and direct the hatred of the world towards his person, so that peace and harmony may follow in the wake of his death. Zero-Approval Gambit meets Thanatos Gambit meets Self-Sacrifice Scheme.

edited 31st May '16 3:07:09 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I think it would depend on more details. If the story is from the perspective of this character, then he wouldn't be the Big Bad. But if it's about, say, a group of secret agents and government leaders who team up to stop him and only learn about the aliens after they defeat him, then I think he'd still count as a Big Bad - though it depends on how involved with the story the aliens are.

Also, I'm not sure if it counts as invoked in the first place, as there seem like more appropriate tropes played straight for this scenario, such as Genghis Gambit.

edited 31st May '16 3:07:07 AM by nrjxll

Villain Protagonist and Anti-Villain are a thing, you know.

Invoked Trope is about a character consciously setting a trope up, which implies they understand how the concept behind the trope usually works and thus how they could benefit from it. In this case, the character understands that one of the best ways to unite otherwise disparate and bickering forces under one banner is to force them to face a Big Bad of such dire threat that they will find it in their best self-interest to set aside their differences and unite against a common enemy.

Genghis Gambit, while certainly applicable, doesn't require that the created common enemy be the same person/group as the one that is trying to unite the disunited individuals/factions, nor that said common enemy has to qualify as a Big Bad; indeed, the Trope Namer himself used a third party (the Chinese Empire) as the common enemy, and this is how Genghis Gambit typically takes form.

edited 31st May '16 3:14:25 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

To clarify: Whether the trope is in universe or played straight, depends on the viewpoint character here. If the villain doing this is not the viewpoint character, then he is the big bad of the actual story. Probably. Until the reveal. If the viewpoint character is the villain, then the story where he is the Big Bad is a fabricated narrative of his own making, not the narrative we are reading. In this case, it is in universe.

In either case, I see him as invoking a straight example of the big bad, start to finish, of his story. That doesn't mean there aren't opportunities for subversion, like one of his schemes "inadvertently" creating a great positive outcome.

A subversion might take the form of a final battle where he just surrenders with no escape plan.

... I'm afraid that I've gotten confused here.

I'm getting the impression that you're saying his real motivation for invoking Big Bad don't qualify for a subversion. I duly note that invoking Big Bad can be done for non-altruistic reasons, e.g. if the character has a beef with the heroes, and they're so well-protected that the only way he figures he could get back at them is by worming his way into the Evil Overlord's trust and become a Dragon with an Agenda, then deposing him on the first opportunity and replacing him so that he may start enacting his own goals, which include purposefully creating a plot-driving problem that would inevitably attract the heroes to him, just so they would walk straight into a trap (the supposed "problem" was essentially just smoke and mirrors; think of how the Justice League and especially Superman were distressed in the JLA TV series by Lex Luthor's bid for US presidency, only for the villain himself to admit later on that he was faking his pursuit of the office just to piss Superman off).

edited 31st May '16 4:15:07 AM by MarqFJA

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In the confusing bit: The narrative the villain is making are the lies, the propaganda that his actions are inducing. It is what is happening according to the world governments. Essentially, the hero of our story is writing a fiction and mailing it into the brains of the various world leaders.

The other bit: I am saying his motivations don't factor into it at all. The trope is about his narrative role. If he plays the big bad, he is the big bad, unless the audience is in on it.

Ah, OK. That makes a lot more sense than my highly confused initial impression... which was so confused, even I am not sure what it was right now.

I don't see why the audience being in on it has any bearing. The real threat that the character is trying to prepare everyone for in his own way counts as a Greater-Scope Villain rather than a Big Bad, since the latter is all about directly driving the immediate plot, while the former is about indirectly driving the immediate plot through either their mere existence, through past influence on the current Big Bad, or some other form of similarly indirect connection to the immediate plot. Meanwhile, the schemer is indeed driving the immediate plot through their actions and is doing lots of evil, albeit his intentions are completely divorced from the facade he presents to the world at large, unlike a typical Big Bad.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.