During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
From YMMV.Aladdin The Return Of Jafar
- Magnificent Bastard: Jafar, while more of a Smug Snake in the first movie, became a lot more competent in the sequel, developing a more thought-out Evil Plan to take over Agrabah that culminated with Aladdin framed for the murder of the Sultan and set to be executed, and all of the heroes imprisoned in his dungeon. And Aladdin had no idea that Jafar had even returned, until the moment before his execution when Jafar reveals himself just to gloat. If it wasn't for Iago pulling a Heel–Face Turn and betraying him, Jafar would have taken over Agrabah and disposed of all threats to his rule.
While less of a Smug Snake, he still has his traces as he feels the need to gloat.
edited 13th May '18 10:14:01 AM by costanton11
I will argue for keeping Jafar, at least in the sequel. First question, is Evil Gloating in and of itself an automic disqualifier? If it's fully deserved, I really don't think so. He only reveals himself when Aladdin is at his mercy, and doesn't affect his chances of success in any way. His plan only unravels as the result of separate circumstances (namely, Iago doing a Heel–Face Turn).
edited 13th May '18 11:39:16 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
That makes sense. On another note, the page for Back to the Future: The Game has the following:
- Magnificent Bastard: Marty shapes up into a heroic version through the game.
Given that Marty is a hero, it's safe to say that he doesn't count.
Goku Black
Word of advice for anyone here. If you see an MB entry that says heroic version of this trope. Burn it as its not this.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Also cool with keeping jafar from the sequel. He's a good case study in how a Smug Snake can become a MB.
Lord of Hell
So here are some One Piece examples that I'm for debating and/or cutting
- One Piece:
- Crocodile manipulated an entire kingdom into a civil war, while presenting himself as a hero to the country. His slogan for the plan was, "The love for this kingdom will destroy it." He toyed with the heroes by telling them about a bomb that would blow up the town square they were in, and was nearly impossible to stop because he had a backup in case his lackeys failed to set off the bomb. His plan was nearly flawless and would have succeeded if it was not for the unexpected return of The Hero, who he thought he'd killed.
- Donquixote Doflamingo also made a gambit of taking over a country, and succeeded in a day and a night. He managed to keep power for a decade. His grip of the country was only shaken because of a single blunder by one of his subordinates, whose powers made everyone else forget about the very existence of the person who eventually led the resistance. Before that, he managed to position himself so well even his enemies (the World Government) were forced to cooperate. He also set himself up with one of the Yonko, Kaido, ensuring that anyone who went after him also risked the intervention of the Yonko. Even though he isn't as powerful as the admirals or the Yonko, he expertly maneuvered his way to the top. Only Luffy and Law are crazy enough/ have enough knowledge to hit him where it hurts.
- Blackbeard. His Gambit Roulette slash Batman Gambit resulted in the biggest battle/war in the history of the series' world, and manipulated all sides involved effortlessly. He admitted the plan had gone through some snags, but he still got exactly what he wanted from it: Whitebeard's extremly powerful Devil's Fruit, and 4 of the strongest prisoners of Level Six of Impel Down, which holds the worst criminals in history, plus the former Head Jailer, a man equal to the Badass Warden. And he got away scot free, and because of the WG's pride, won't even be hunted down by them. All for his plan to become Pirate King.
- Vice Admiral Jonathan of the G-8 "Navarone" facility is a rare semi-heroic example. The Straw Hat pirates just happen to fall directly into the impenetrable fortress at the same time that an inspector with an ulterior motive to have the place shut down pulls in. Rather than trying to deny the event, he takes time and makes observations about the crew, even when they show in front of his very face, turning their quirks to support a morale boost of the base's personnel and discredit the obstructive inspector. It's important to remember that his primary goal is to maintain the Marines' support of the facility, not the capture of the pirate crew, and even when things don't follow his voiced plan, he still comes out ahead.
- Trafalgar Law, after the Time Skip. He become one of the Shichibukai in order to get in close on Caesar Clown in order to stop his production of the SAD, a chemical crucial in the production of artificial devil fruits, but he also used this attempt to press Donquixote Doflamingo into quitting the Shichibukai. He is smart enough to befriend the protagonist, forming an alliance with him to take down Kaidou of the Yonkou (who wanted the SAD chemical). And last, but not least: he tricked Caesar Clown into stabbing what Clown thought was Smoker's heart, while it in reality was the heart of his own second in command, Monet seconds before she would have released an attack that would have killed everyone except for Clown, which he would have been perfectly fine with. It Makes Sense in Context.
- Buggy also qualifies, oddly enough. While not as personally powerful as the above examples, he made it across The Grand Line just fine prior to Impel Down. Once he got captured, he managed to conceal his Devil Fruit abilities while getting locked up in a supermax prison and thus avoided receiving Seastone restraints (and also managed to sneak in powerful explosives), used carefully worded lies and half-truths to talk a bunch of incredibly powerful and dangerous convicts into working for him, thereby gaining one of the strongest crews in the series, and post-Time Skip, it's shown he managed to talk his way into a cushy position as one of the Shichibukai, all while operating under the guise of Obfuscating Stupidity. He's essentially John Constantine in the form of a pirate.
Crocodile: I don't have too much issue with him staying, but still think he should be cut. With things like repeatedly hurling sandstorms at Yuba and his plan of nuking an entire city despite (from what I recall) neither really benefiting his overall goals does make me feel like he's too much of a bastard (though with the likes of Enel, Doflamingo, Hody, and Jack the Drought it's not as heinous for One Piece as one might think). That and he shows a fair amount of Smug Snake tendencies whenever he fought against Luffy and the Villainous Breakdown he had the final time he fought Luffy doesn't help.
Doflamingo: Way too much of a bastard along with being a Politically Incorrect Villain who views anybody who isn't of noble blood a lesser being (to the point where he, and several other Celestial Dragons, use the word "human" as an insult)
Blackbeard: I feel like he's made fuckups way too major to be a MB. Storming into Impel Down and confronting Magellan without a real plan nearly got him and his entire crew killed (they got saved by pure coincidence when Shilew gave them the antidote to Magellan's poison) and his Smug Snake attitude caused him to underestimate Whitebeard and nearly get killed, with his life being saved due to Whitebeard being too wounded from previous injuries in the war to finish him off. He's also a Dirty Coward seeing as how when Whitebeard was about to kill him, Teach was pretty much begging to be spared.
Jonathan: From the looks of the entry, seems to be lacking the "bastard" part of Magnificent Bastard. Hero Antagonist, but seems to be a pretty nice guy from how the entry describes it.
Law: He's a hero so that's a pretty big red flag, but with him intending to eliminate G-5 during the Punk Hazard arc to keep his secrets safe, and how he openly told Luffy he intends to betray him during the Dressrosa arc when their alliance is severed (though that could be a bluff) he does have some bastard tendencies. Wouldn't mind too much if he stays or gets cut.
Buggy: Cut. Now. Smug Snake, Dirty Coward, and the entry plays up him talking his way into getting a strong crew and position of Warlord way too much. It was a series of coincidences that Buggy had no idea about that was led by other characters assumptions, and Buggy just rolls along with it.
edited 13th May '18 12:31:38 PM by Awesomekid42
The Image Links page has several examples, not all of which I am familiar with. Which of them should be cut? (Some of them should probably be cut anyway, as some of the links are dead).
The villains (or morally ambiguous) who make doing evil look like an artform.
- Lionel Luthor◊ from Smallville.
- From The Legend of Korra, we have Amon◊.
- Lelouch◊ from Code Geass.
- Kane◊ from Command & Conquer.
- David Xanatos◊ from Gargoyles.
- The Illusive Man◊ from Mass Effect.
- Revolver / Liquid Ocelot◊ from Metal Gear Solid.
- Khan◊ from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.
- Megabyte◊ from ReBoot.
- Megatron◊ from Beast Wars.
- SHODAN◊ from System Shock.
- Mitth'raw'nuruodo◊, better known as Thrawn from Star Wars Legends.
- A protagonist example in the form of Tom Reagan◊ from Miller's Crossing.
- Sir Crocodile◊ from One Piece.
- Benjamin Linus◊ from Lost
- Gustavo Fring◊ from Breaking Bad
- DarkKnightmon◊ from Digimon Xros Wars
- Hades◊ from Kid Icarus: Uprising
- Dimentio◊ from Super Paper Mario
- Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish◊ from A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones
- King Piccolo◊ from Dragon Ball
- Alfred Bester◊ from Babylon 5
- Moriarty from Sherlock
- Master Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts
edited 13th May '18 12:33:13 PM by costanton11
Abstaining on Jafar if and until I bother to watch the movie, I'm skeptical about him counting but open to the fact his character may have been turned around. Cut the following examples. As for the images? I vouch we ax them entirely, unlike CM this ain't really one you can capture in a picture.
Goku Black
Burn the entire page. There all pretty much just pic's of villains, illustrating this in a pic is not possible.
Goku Black
Alright rwby has this:
- If Sigma and The Mad King are anything to go by, then RWBY's Cinder Fall is easily proving her chops in Volume 3 and proving to be the driving force in most other incidents before then. She's able to recruit two orphans into joining her cause, convinces the group White Fang to join her, steals half the power of one of four super powered girls (and this is a world where they already have powers), snuck inside Beacon Academy to infect it with a virus successfully despite Ruby catching her, is able to take control of the matches at the Vytal Tournament, turns public opinion against Team RWBY and Beacon through a Wounded Gazelle Gambit and she's not done yet.
- Two volumes after Cinder's magnum opus, we discover a second character worthy of the title. This person managed to kill a runaway Spring Maiden and inherit her powers (in addition to her pre-existing abilities of teleportation and shapeshifting), then proceeded to have a loyal member of her bandit tribe pretend to be her decoy Spring Maiden for at least ten years. This managed to fool every last one of the characters (and the audience) into thinking that her decoy was the missing Maiden. And when Cinder finds the Spring Maiden, the latter plays Salem's side for fools, and then proceeds to kill Cinder in a climatic battle within Haven Academy's depths, using powers that she'd honed for over a decade. This Magnificent Bastard's name? Raven Branwen.
Uh I just got into it, so cant speak for these two. Lighty and Ambar, I know your fans could you shed some light.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I decided to look at Magnificent Bastard section from the Most Triumphant Example page, and I was wondering if any of them need to be cut. Regardless if it's on the Sugar Wiki, I think if the thread determines that someone isn't an example, they shouldn't be considered one of the most triumphant examples. Here's the list, and we can cut those who don't count:
- Magnificent Bastard
- Kain, the undisputed king of this trope for many reasons, but none more so then manipulating history itself for his own means via time travel and being able to outwit not just powerful sorcerers and mages, but an actual parasitic elder god with only his own memories of history's events to guide him all the while fighting against an entire time line of individuals out to get him and with only a magic sword to assist him, a magic sword that was useless against his most dangerous enemy until the near end of his scheme.. upon which he not only punched out Cthulu, but buried him with the rubble of his own home all while accenting it with one of the greatest "Shut up Hannibal's" of all time.~Pumablues
- Treize Kushrenada, the man did his magnificient bastard things on a global scale, therefore winning at life.~GD Immortal
- Captain Hector Barbossa
- Lucifer. ~axonometrics
- Francis Urquhart -Unknown Troper
- David Xanatos -Azxc, Ingonyama, Lale
- Megabyte. "No, you remember... how I turned defeat into victory and left you with a dying system!" ~The Phantom Squee
- Yoichi Hiruma -kamikamiya
- "Now do you understand, Clifford-senpai? I win if I make you think "He'll NEVER play this card"! ~ RainRequiem
- Vetinari. ~Dreamaniac
- Revolver Ocelot ~ A Random Serf
- Seconded. ~ babyhenchy1
- Thirded, for managing to double cross everyone in the series including himself while managing to defeat near-omniscient A.I.s. ~Tropers/Rotide
- Grand Admiral Mith'raw'nuruodo. All others are pale imitations. ~Ryvaken Lucius Tadrya
- Felix Cortez. It's hard not to root for him, even if he is working for a murderous drug lord. ~Killer BOB Dole
- The Joker. "I took your little plan and I turned it on itself." ~ Ainu Laire
- Lex Luthor. ~insert_name_here
- Amon. 'nuff said ~ Meta Falcario
- For the female version, Princess Azula. ~ deeman45
- Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish. In a series full of Magnificent, Manipulative, and Chess Mastering bastards, Baelish is still the best of 'em.
- In that he's the only one who can reasonably even pretend to think he might be coming out ahead at all, definitely. Seconded. - Musoeun
- Dr. Hannibal Lecter ~ Man Without A Body
- Um. What about Iago? Or Richard III? ~ Phoenix Fire
- The Count ~Nightmare Kitty
- Malcolm Tucker: a career Magnificent Bastard, and more loveable than he has any right to be- Debussy
- Sarah Kerrigan ~neobowman
- Manfred von Karma. ~ Mistermister
- No Sousuke Aizen? Are you freakin' kidding me?! ~ Carla
- Crocodile, just Crocodile. ~ ncfan
- So SECONDED! ~ Nintendo Nate 25
- Baal —lazerbeam22
- Makoto Shishio. ~ Ace Noctali
- Doctor Doom. Appropriately enough, he has been voiced by both Kain (Simon Templeman) and the original Emperor Palpatine (Clive Revill). —Gfrequency
- The Master. You can practically mummify someone with the list counting every magnificent bastardry he has done ~ That Other Griffin, ~Drolyt
- Iago. ~ SG_Man_Forever
- DarkKnightmon. KILL YOU, indeed. ~Storm
- Kreia is ready to reveal that she has, in fact, been at the top of this list all along. ~ atrasicarius, ~ Leilukin
- Walter White, specifically in seasons 3 to the end. rtw2act
- Mr Gold/Rumplestiltskin, dearies! - Anew Man
- Seconded, seconded, seconded a thousand times! Effortlessly playing both the heroes and the villains for over two hundred years to accomplish his goal is as magnificent as they come. ~Aspie
- Lelouch vi Britannia. He leads a team of rebels with one mech to their name to near victory in his first ever battle, is able to almost pull off a victory against Britannia before his memories are stolen, then he tricks everyone into thinking his memories are still gone and turns everyone who learns the truth to his side, before getting a million people to be able to walk out of Japan without incident, and finally, with no allies, Geasses the universe into turning against the emperor, takes his place in a few minutes, and tricks whole world into doing exactly what he wanted, by dying. And it's confirmed that he survived. ZeroL
CM is hard to find a picture for; you pretty much always need a caption to explain he does whatever atrocity he's doing in the picture all the time. This one, however, is even harder to find a pic for, because it can't be shown.
Cut the One Piece examples who aren't Crocodile. I'm skeptical on Jaffar counting, though I will listen to arguments. Perhaps an EP is in order?
A lot of those are nonexamples. Burn'em.
edited 13th May '18 3:38:04 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@Ambar Sonof Deshar Iirc Lighty is in favor for keeping Treize so that's something to consider
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Some miscellaneous examples I found:
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
- Magnificent Bastard: While little in the novel suggests that anything related to the Golden Ticket contest and the tour (i.e. the bratty kids' fates) is deliberately planned by Willy Wonka, it's not uncommon for adaptations to tweak things to turn him into this to varying degrees.
- In the 1971 film, the whole business with "Slugworth" turns out to be a Secret Test of Character masterminded by Mr. Wonka.
- In the 2005 film, other characters note that the Oompa-Loompas' 'improvisation' of their songs smacks of conspiracy. This ramps things straight into casino territory, as it rather implies that Mr. Wonka cherrypicked those kids specifically.
- In the 2013 musical, tropers are directed to the Walking Spoiler folder on the character sheet for the details...
- Magnificent Bastard: Ferris, if one believes him to be a villain.
YMMV/Hercules
- Magnificent Bastard: Hades has most of the qualifications down (The Chessmaster, Manipulative Bastard, charming and stylish persona), but is only held back from full greatness due to his chronic fiery temper.
YMMV/Madagascar
- Magnificent Bastards: The Penguins.
- Magnificent Bitch:
- Janis Ian's plan is to slowly ruin Regina's life by bringing her down one piece at a time. Get rid of her boyfriend, trick her into gaining weight and turn her friends against her. All banking on the fact that Regina's ego wouldn't believe in someone doing that to her.
- Regina too, once she finds out about the scheme. She puts herself in the Burn Book, frames the other girls for it and then releases the contents all over the school - effectively causing a riot.
Alternate Character Interpretation aside, Wonka and Ferris probably too heroic to count. The Hercules post admits that Hades fails due to his temper. The Penguins are pretty heroic. Janis is mainly only antagonistic to people who deserve it and Regina is, as admitted, a Smug Snake.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Geez, that Hades entry literally acknowledge that he dont qualify
Burn all of them. No mercy
Watch me destroying my country
Kain from Legacy of Kain? Oh god, easy keep, says I. I can also see Hannibal from the Hannibal series counting.
edited 13th May '18 4:09:43 PM by Lightysnake
Burn all those examples.
edited 13th May '18 5:24:20 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I don't know on Jafar, even in the sequel... he's definitely a more effective, competent villain there, but the problem is he's still written like the first film's Jafar and the smugness is still definitely there (his villain song, for starters, is one long boast grinding in how much better he thinks he is than the Genie). Now, him having the power to back that most of his gloating is another thing.
Oh, and no one counts in RWBY at the moment. Raven Branwen is too much a sniveling coward more than an MB when her facade is torn down and Cinder is just too much of a sadistic bitch to ever qualify. There's not one iota of coolness about her.
edited 13th May '18 5:41:45 PM by Scraggle
That was... much of what I suspected about the Jafar situation and as for RWBY, sounds like the same people who kept trying to say Cinder had an Alas, Poor Villain trying to gain points for her in a different way.
Also: Sorry Kaz, forgot to ask for the Pandora Hearts stuff to be cut in prep for if and when you EP them so I've added them and (I think) everything else we're going to cut or re-eval to a list on the drafts.
edited 13th May '18 6:31:47 PM by 43110
The quotes page should probably be looked at as well. Due to the length, I'll probably post one section at a time. Here's the anime folder:
Lilli: An act!?
Iris: Every story worth hearing has a damsel in distress. I've always wanted to play that part. And you made sure to pick up my pendant like a good little heroine. Thank you!
Spiritia: This...?
Iris: Thanks to that, I was able to observe your every move. It was really amusing, watching you give it your all. No other playwright could have envisioned something so splendid!
Spiritia: A play!?
Iris: That's right. An epic saga penned by yours truly. Pitting the peaceful Liebea against your idiotic ideals was sheer brilliance! Watching friends turn on one another thanks to a tiny seed of doubt I planted... wonderful! Even the stoic Sichte swallowed that drivel about a world just for Magi. Hook, line, and sinker, no less! Magnificent! And the dreams of the commonfolk being trampled underfoot... Hahaha! I think I'm going to cry!
Grolla: What are you plotting!? Explain yourself!
Iris: Such a noisy eyesore...
Grolla: Answer me! Have you been deceiving us!?
Iris: Heheheh. Is something the matter? You're trembling.
Grolla: Why are you so calm!?
Iris: It seems I overestimated your common sense. Observe.
Super Buu: It's your fault! You were stronger that me and I had to be the strongest! I made this plan when I felt you far off in space... I felt the possibility of someone stronger than me. So I thought "If Super Gotenks was a part of me, no one could be stronger than I!" But it looked like there was a time limit on the power of those brats. I heard them talking about it. I didn't want to go back to normal after I absorbed them, so I waited for my next chance. They could turn into Super Gotenks again in an hour so I hid until then.
Gohan: Really? But from the way you keep carrying on, it still looks like you're an idiot. If you really wanted to be the strongest, you could have absorbed me.
Super Buu: You don't get it. What's the point of being the best if you're the only one?
Gohan: What?
Super Buu: Didn't you hear the previous Majin? "I'm going to destroy you." That's my ultimate goal.
Gohan: You're right... I see. So that's what's happening.
Super Buu: Well then... lets finish this fight quickly. There seems to be a strict time on the amount of time that Super Gotenks can stay transformed.
Gohan: That's a pretty accurate observation. Looks like you were justified in absorbing Piccolo.
(Chapter 5)
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Lets burn all of them. Iris is a CM, and unless that version of the Third Hokage was a villain, he is a heroic character. Light and Lelouch are non-examples.
What about Super Buu we haven’t mentioned him yet here’s his MB entry:
As opposed to the Obliviously Evil Majin Buu and Stupid Evil Kid Buu, Super Buu was the smartest villain in the history of the series and he was only person in the history of the series that was able to Out Gambit Piccolo of all people by wiping out all of humanity in only a few minutes when Piccolo was expecting him to take hours to do it, so that Goten and Trunks got extra time to train, and on top of that, never even leaving Kami's lookout while doing it. He then masterfully pulled off a Xanatos Speed Chess, when he noticed Gohan's growing power, and so he fought against Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and tested the limits of his strength and his weaknesses (e.g. fusion limit). After briefly fighting Gohan and finding himself overwhelmed, he goes through an intentional Super-Power Meltdown, knowing he will regenerate and buys time (and getting Goten and Trunks to recuperate, to fuse again). When he returns he goads Goten and Trunks into fusing again at full power and absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo into his being, deciding 30 minutes is more than enough to handle Gohan, and he was right in that regard. Goku then arrives and the fusion breaks down. Goku says Gohan alone is strong enough to defeat Buu, but then Buu reveals that he planned for this eventuality as well, and had a piece of himself ready to absorb Gohan the whole time, who he goaded into standing still until it was too late. He was also the only villain that did not succumb to Bond Villain Stupidity, which is very atypical for this series.
Cut or keep and why?
edited 13th May '18 8:18:48 PM by G-Editor
Agreed with Kazuya. Iris is a clear 'chessmaster' user, while the others are close. The Gohan example seems inconclusive - which participant is one, and how? It seems like each character is mostly exposed to adversity. The quotation would require contextualising, or could be dropped at this point.
If the character Super Buu was relevant to this trope, there might be an earlier or later quote which gives a clearer example of it.
edited 13th May '18 8:28:07 PM by zeroflyingwherever
"Hello. Casually, tell her that she's died."
Here are the comic book, fanfic, and animated films sections
[Lucius] did not have the words to adequately describe how he felt – as far as he was aware, the English language did not have a word that encapsulated the utter horror of realising that all your efforts, all your best laid plans and most cunning manoeuvres have been nothing more than a small part of someone else's grander scheme. Nor did it have a word that described the feeling where you thought you were writing your own song, but found that it was merely a small part of a greater symphony. Nor did it have one that described how you felt when, in fact, your very worst fears had just come true. But if there were such words, he would have used them.
Strange: Now you begin to see. You have never been anything more than a piece on my board, a pawn to be moved to and fro as I saw fit. Your plans were simply incorporated into my own.
Simba: Oooh, what is it?
Scar: If I told you, it wouldn't be a surprise, now would it?
Simba: If you tell me, I'll still act surprised.
Scar: Ho ho ho! You are such a naughty boy.
Simba: Come on, Uncle Scar.
Scar: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is just for you and your daddy. You know, a sort of... father-son... thing. Well, I'd better go get him.
Simba: I'll go with you!
Scar: No! Heh heh heh. No. Just stay on this rock. You wouldn't want to end up in another mess like you did with the hyenas.
Simba: You know about that?
Scar: Simba, everybody knows about that.
Simba: Really?
Scar: Oh, yes. Lucky Daddy was there to save you, eh? Oh, and just between us, you might want to work on that little roar of yours, hmm?
Simba: Oh... Okay. Hey Uncle Scar! Will I like the surprise?
Scar: Simba, it's to die for.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
The quotes from Lucifer and probably Veidt can stay (he is sort of a desconstruction of this type of character, his plan worked by Dr. Manhattan does imply that it would get undone or fail eventually).
I just hate Harry Potter and the methods of smugness, so my instint say cut, but lets wait for the sake of actual rationality.
Cut the one with Dr. Strange, he is a hero unless that fic treats him as a villain.
Cut Scar, he is NOT magnificent at all. He is a massive Smug Snake and a bad ruler in both meanings of bad
edited 13th May '18 8:53:47 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Writeup time for the Gentleman Thief by the way:
Kindaichi Case Files: The Gentleman Thief is a cunning thief who has a penchant on leaving the notes for her next targets and disguising herself so that she could steal some precious items. In her first appearance, she disguised herself as a young and jovial journalist, Daigo Maki, and then targets Gamou Gouzou’s residence so that she could steal his own notable painting “My Beloved Daughter”. When she was almost outwitted by Kindaichi, she then disguise herself as an old woman and ties him with a basket full of heavy rocks in a middle of a busy street. Later appearances show that she used the same gambit by tricking Kindaichi and get away with the stuffs that she stole and then hoping that she would meet with him again
@43110 I think I'm cool if you spoil tag the Daigo Maki part especially the work itself is a mystery after all
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."