Character pronoun and identity discussion

As someone who thinks it's fine to refer to A as a woman...I don't get why anyone argues that we should stop considering A nonbinary. Alvis is called a man on the same page that lists his true gender as ??? after all. Sticking with no pronouns here sounds like a good plan too; regardless of what's revealed later, it's intentionally ambiguous in the game.

The push to treat A as the female part of Ontos makes no sense, when the artbook profiles also double down on the implication that A is the 'humanity' saying A has the heart/soul while Alpha only retains the functions as a machine. Jungian symbolism and archetypes shouldn't replace the characters themselves.

I'll holler to see if there's sufficient reasoning for A by now. The only arguments for otherwise use an untranslated artbook as the main source, which everyone have noted to be unreliable in any case.

Discussion started here. Suggested conclusion here.

Are there problems with Alvis that needs discussion, or there is no confusion on the page?

I think no one had a problem with the original Alvis, but someone who is on here more should probably chime in.

Original Alvis is consistently treated as male.

Yes, the pronouns and terms used for him are clear, so that's not something to discuss.

I brought him up because people don't seem to have an issue with entries about him being ambiguously gendered or nonbinary the way they do with A's page, so it felt like a double standard, but I wouldn't know if there were issues in the past.

Remember when I brought up Rem from Tokyo Xanadu? Well, I want to note that there is an upcoming translation for the Switch version that will be completely revamped, so there is a possibility that Rem's pronouns might change as well. For now though, can we put her in the pinned post?

Alvis is consistently referred to as he/him in the original game and in Future Redeemed. As someone who would periodically edit the character page for 1, I have never seen any entries trying to claim otherwise, even from those who do view him as something other than cis binary male (and there has been lore dating all the way back to the first game to argue that interpretation for the record). He's a pretty clear-cut case.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 16th 2024 at 10:37:33 AM

Yeah, I really don't think there's any argument surrounding the original Alvis identity. He's consistently referred to as he/him both ingame and on his character page, everything seems to be in order there.

It's been almost a week without disagreement, so would it be safe to assume that the thread has settled on A as a "no pronouns" character? And furthermore, to remove entries that try to argue that the character is a binary cis woman on trope pages related to the game? Because I'm still seeing entries attempting to justify at length why it's totally within their right to treat A as a binary woman. Even if they avoid using she/her pronouns towards the character, it's blatantly agenda-based editing.

I'm also getting really tired of certain parts of the fanbase using the argument that Alvis/Alpha uses he/him as proof that A must be strictly female, even though the book they cite also equates A to Alvis in such a way that it more or less confirms the character as trans/genderfluid.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 21st 2024 at 9:20:54 AM

Would need a Holler, though I did use one last week.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 21st 2024 at 8:22:31 PM

I think this one is settled.

Yep, looks settled to me, too.

Could someone summarise the conclusion?

Edited by Bisected8 on Apr 22nd 2024 at 1:05:29 PM

I've mentioned in this post and there were no objections so far.

Cool, I'll add it to the OP.

Agree on the whole thing that A should be continued to be referred to as nonbinary, though I feel like a quick mention of the source code and Takahashi's comments wouldn't hurt as long as people don't abuse them to push an agenda.

Maybe A uses they/she pronouns in the end? :P But in all seriousness, feminine nonbinary is a very real classification, and I wonder if a more precise translation of Takahashi's comments would end up revealing them as such.

Takahashi was never asked about A's gender or pronouns so there is no new information to be had on it. We have already agreed after lengthy discussion that because the game deliberately refuses to give A any pronouns, so should we. Any entry that tries to call A as they/she should be removed on those grounds.

The code thing is already mentioned under the Ambiguous Gender entry, where it makes sense to be there, but anywhere else tends to come off as an excuse to justify treating A as a binary woman even though the game's script goes out of its way to avoid doing so.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 22nd 2024 at 2:30:24 AM

Regarding Umineko: When They Cry, remind me if this is accurate, because I see some inconsistencies here and there.

• Lion Ushiromiya from an Alternate Timeline is addressed as "Lion", but "they/them" is allowed. There are implications Lion is raised male, but the narrative specifically avoids using gender.
• Sayo Yasuda while early in the flashback isn't gendered and is implied to be male at birth, is only addressed as female further on. Her "characters" Shannon, Beatrice and Clair are exclusively female while Kanon is specifically male. "They/them" is sometimes allowed when which one isn't specified or Multi-Gendered Split Personalities are addressed collectively.
• "The Man From 19 Years Ago" is only addressed as such and is considered male despite the implications that is Sayo with a voice filter.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 23rd 2024 at 1:27:30 PM

Yeah that's accurate from what I remember.

When asked about their gender, Lion essentially says "None of ya business".

In the flashback, Sayo is pointedly referred to without pronouns until the point in the story when they "become" Shannon.

Update on Apep from Genshin Impact: She's now being referred to with she/her pronouns in-game rather than it/its. We might want to update her pronouns on the character page.

Edited by PhiSat on Apr 24th 2024 at 9:44:12 AM

If a work has not been (officially) translated into English, but has been translated into other languages with grammatical gender, is that worth anything for determining a character's gender?

In the French translation of Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure The JOJO Lands, Dragona Joestar (currently a they/them in most examples, but a few use he/him) uses the pronoun "il", which is a male pronoun, although it being used in a gender-neutral way isn't 100% impossible. More important is that he's also Jodio's "frère", which can only mean "brother", as in a male person. At this point, I'm fairly certain that Dragona is specifically supposed to be a crossdressing man, rather than a trans woman or non-binary. But there are still some counter-arguments that could be used, so I wouldn't be surprised if some people disagreed.

It's not a very strong example. Dragona could be referred to as Jodio's brother because the translators aren't sure whether to call them his brother or sister and are making a guess. It's like the dub of Soul Eater using male pronouns for Crona because at the time gender-neutral pronouns were seen as dehumanizing, so they guessed.

Edited by PhiSat on Apr 26th 2024 at 9:51:19 AM

I've randomly been reminded of Helena Handbasket, Chandler's Drag Queen parent from Friends. It's been a long time since I watched the show, but I vaguely recall it being a very muddy portrayal, with Chandler insistently using her birth name and everyone very inconsistent with pronouns, and it felt like the show was unaware of any distinction between a trans woman, a drag queen, and a "hee hee hoo hoo funny man in dress". However, a later interview with one of the creators has clarified that Helena was intended to be a trans woman, and the muddy portrayal was due mainly to a lack of understanding on the creators' part at the time.

Given this, I'm personally inclined to refer to her exclusively as Helena, she/her. But seeing as Helena Handbasket is clearly a Stage Name (though we never get any name that seems intended for personal use) I thought I'd bring it up with the thread to see if we want to make a policy here.

(I feel like I've brought this up at some point in the past, but I'm entirely unable to recall the context...)

I'd go with She/Her. The show was written at a time when there was very little understanding of the difference between being trans and being a drag queen, and so she sort of flip-flops around. But they did say if the show was made today she'd be handled differently and played by a transwoman.

Are you sure Friends itself is inconsistent on the matter? This might be worth looking into, so that we have all the information before we try to make a call.

(This goes into the further question of when a drag queen counts as "in character", so it isn't as simple as it may look at first glance.)

I haven't seen Friends, but I'm reminded of another drag queen character with an Ambiguous Gender Identity from the 90's, Angel from RENT, who is generally treated as a trans woman in modern times and given she/her pronouns. That cultural context in addition to the Word of Gay leans me towards supporting Helena using she/her consistently, particularly if that's how she calls herself.

Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 26th 2024 at 6:39:47 AM