Character pronoun and identity discussion

But does Seth use pronouns for themselves or not? Of note is that pronouns have little to do with "being rational" and I'm not even sure what relevance that has to whether or not Seth has a personal gender identity or even just a set of preferred pronouns.

I went and looked at Seth's story mode in V, and it really didn't really tell that much of what Seth thinks about the current situation (in regards to both Seth and the body's system voice). The only time gender is even brought up is Juri asking about that the voice she's talking with means about the body having gender before Seth gets rebooted.

So even SF characters don't know for sure

x17 This is basically 9/11 for Anime pfps.

...Who are you talking to? Don't make us count man, nobody has time for that.

Looks like they're talking about Chloe Jessica's Toga pfp. The pointed-to post is her post with the Daisuke interview.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Sep 17th 2022 at 9:05:40 AM

not my pfp specifically, just that on Twitter, men with an anime pfp tend to have extremely abhorrent opinions.

she/her!

Edited by ChloeJessica on Sep 16th 2022 at 11:01:44 AM

x3 Yeah, I was talking about Ishiwatari-san's post.

No need to get snippy - Septimus

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Sep 17th 2022 at 5:00:19 PM

Anyway back on Seth, unless other people can tell how Seth talks in V in other languages (even my comment about Falke feels like she's using they/them because she doesn't know who Seth is at the moment), I'd say go with he/him since that is how it was in IV IIRC.

Seconded. I say we refer to Seth as "he" until Capcom says otherwise.

Well, I can't believe I'm saying this but, it's time I bring up the Prized Isshin Blade from Genshin Impact.

So lately, there's been confusion going on about what pronouns we should be referring to this character. For context for those of you who haven't played the game or read the story via the Genshin Wiki, the Prized Isshin Blade is a minor antagonist from Kazuha's Story Quest who is a sentient sword seeking revenge against the Raiden Shogun, and note that I said "sword" because this is where the pronoun debate comes into play. Some people refer to Isshin with "it" pronouns because they're a sentient inanimate object with no true gender and it seems to be the one the Genshin fandom favors at large, while some people refer to Isshin with "he/him" pronouns due to Kazuha stating said pronouns at the end of his Story Quest. In both cases, both pronouns have been used officially in the game, muddling things even further.

Two examples from different pages spurred me into making a case for Isshin, displaying a difference in pronoun opinions. I'll mark the pronouns in bold:

From VideoGame.Genshin Impact

• Prior to the events of Kaedehara Kazuha's Story Quest, the Kagotsurube Isshin was this. It's the Big Bad of that storyline, taking Demonic Possession of Anenoma Yuuya's body and hunting down Kaedehara Kazuha so that the latter can use it to defeat the Raiden Shogun. It was originally forged in Sneznayha by an exiled Kaedehara bladesmith who only wanted it to be used in real battle in the nation of his birth. In order to fulfill its mission, it used countless people as pawns, losing sight of its original goal along the way.

From Characters.Genshin Impact Other Residents

• Redemption Equals Death: By the end of Kazuha's Story Quest, after Kazuha gets the blade to realize the error of his ways by literally wearing him out via battles until the Tatarigami influence is gone, he realizes that his master's true wish was not to face the Raiden Shogun, but to simply return to Inazuma to find someone worthy of wielding him and restore the lost Isshin Art. To atone for his transgressions, he decides to be reforged anew but at the cost of his own consciousness.

Edited by CytoZytokine on Sep 17th 2022 at 6:38:59 AM

He/him for Seth for lack of a better option.

For another submission, what do we do with Arval from Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes? They're not referred to with pronouns in the English version from what I remember, and are able to access the Dark Bishop & Gremory classes: both of which are explicitly gender-locked classes (male & female respectively). And making matters confusing is the fact they were created to serve as a body for Epimenedes: Leader of the Agarthans, who is refered to with explicitly masculine pronouns.

So really, it gives a case for he, she and they.

Both pronouns are official (in-game descriptions all use it/its for the sword, Kazuha uses he/him), so I think this ties back to the discussion about characters who use multiple pronouns sets. IIRC the conclusion to that discussion was that either pronoun is acceptable when writing examples, as long as the example itself is consistent.

Edited by Orbiting on Sep 17th 2022 at 1:51:08 PM

For the Isshin sword, I'd use "it/its" for discussions of the sword itself and "he/him" for the spirit inside it.

For Arval, I'd stick with "they" since that's what the game uses. Even if they exist as a body for Epimenides, and thus may share his masculine anatomy in places, they are not Epimenides himself so his pronouns wouldn't necessarily apply to them. Just leave the Ambiguous Gender note explaining the issue up.

It's been a while since I last played the game, but are you sure Arval isn't referred to using they/them? Either way, I think we should go with they/them since the game mostly uses Gender Neutral Writing (at least in the English translation).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 17th 2022 at 1:32:11 PM

Arval refers to themself with "boku" in Japanese (masculine-leaning but not exclusively so). I believe the English translation game explicitly uses they/them at a few points.

Does the game make a distinction between those? Using different pronouns for someone's body and soul... rankles. I can't imagine doing that for Mettaton or Chuckie or any other more-person-shaped animate objects.

According to Orbiting, yes it does.

My understanding of Orbiting's comment was that most people call the sword it/its and one person calls the sword he/him, not that most people refer to the sword and only one person refers to its spirit.

Sorry for the confusion! To clarify, by "in-game description" I meant the description the game gives of the sword while Kazuha is wielding it and you go to his equipment screen. For context, these are the descriptions, which change as the quest continues:

In dialog, Kazuha (and Paimon, who I initially forgot about) address the Isshin Blade as he/him, and he speaks with a masculine voice. All other characters refer to the Isshin Blade as an it, but they're also unaware that the Isshin Blade is sentient.

Sounds like we should be using He/Him then since everyone who knows he's sentient does too.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Sep 17th 2022 at 5:27:40 AM

Okay, he/him sounds like the best choice then.

Edit: Possibly he/him on the character page and it/its on the main page, if spoilers are a concern.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Sep 17th 2022 at 12:18:43 PM

Yeah, for Isshin, I agree we should be using he/him. The character has an obvious masculine-sounding voice, and both Kazuha and Paimon eventually address Isshin with he/him at the end of the Story Quest as a sign of acknowledgement.

Found another character referred to with inconsistent pronouns: Terry from Soul. According to Terry's Ambiguous Gender entry:

• Ambiguous Gender: Like the Jerrys, Terry isn't referred to by any gendered pronouns, although other source materials use female pronouns for Terry since they are played by Rachel House. It's also not clear if the concept even applies here considering that Terry is an astral being.

I'm not sure what to make of this entry, being unable to find decent clips online, but we do need a consistent pronoun to use. The page, and examples elsewhere referring to Terry, use a mixture of she/her and they/them.