Angry babby
I don't think a later Heel–Face Turn is enough to disqualify her as Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist. What she regretted was that her intentions were selfish, and that she used the cause as a means to manipulate the town into obeying her despite her not fully believing in her own cause.
Even if she believes her own rhetoric, it's motivated by selfishness and an inability to communicate properly with her friend. She fits a lot of the criteria listed under Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist. Additionally, the show never agrees with her point that cutie marks or diversity are inherently bad, which is a requirement for Well-Intentioned Extremist.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Do we have proof Starlight was rewritten between the Season 5 premiere and finale? While it would make sense, episodes are written so far in advance (Princess Twilight Sparkle had it's script locked August 2012 and aired November 23, 2013) it couldn't have been an after the fact response to Starlight's reception or Sunset's popularity (it would have been written before Rainbow Rocks when Sunset became popular enough to want to emulate). And they hyped up villain Starlight, who's episode was well received to the point it was nominated for a 2016 Hugo Award, so why change her?
I feel they changed her (it was so at odds with what the tone of the show let it effectively convey a barely pubescent child was able to do the same thing with more credibility) but the arguments agains it are such proof is required before we should use that as an assumption in Starlight's redemption.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's why I think Secretly Selfish is a better fit. Many SS examples allow the selfish characters to remain sympathetic, especially if they show remorse upon realizing such as was the case as with Starlight. In contrast I know of no NSWIE examples (save the Straw Hypocrite which Starlight was not otherwise she wouldn't have been redeemable) who ever show real regret for their actions after seeing how wrong they were as NSWIE is supposed to invalidate sympathy or redeemability. (Maybe Starlight's a deconstruction of NSWIE as it was rooted in enough legitimate sympathetic internment to be redeemable, but that implies a depth the show didn't have, but I've asked and playing withs don't have to be intentional.) Many WIE are presented as wholly in the wrong for their methods but still sincere enough in their intent to not be NSWIE.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:35:27 PM
UPDATE: The synapsis for the G5 movie is out
. What it reveals...
I think it prudent we avoid adding anything about it effecting/under G4 until the final product is out.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 27th 2021 at 12:45:59 PM
Redmess
Link is dead. Could you just quote the page?
Optimism is a duty.
The summery for those interested. In the new movie, the pony world of Equestria has lost its magic. (GASP!) Friendship and Harmony have been replaced by paranoia and mistrust, and Ponies now live separated by species. Sunny – a feisty and idealistic young Earth Pony – is convinced there’s still hope for this divided world… but her slightly misguided and often hilarious efforts to change hearts and minds have led to her being branded a misfit. When Sunny befriends a lost Unicorn named Izzy, who wanders innocently into the Earth Pony town of Maretime Bay, the town has had enough. Izzy and Sunny must embark on an epic adventure that will include a daring jewel heist, outrageous conspiracy theories, elaborate musical numbers, and the world’s cutest flying Pomeranian. Their adventures will take them to faraway lands and force them to challenge the status quo by facing their fears and making new friends out of old enemies. The world Sunny has dreamed of her entire life could finally become a reality as Sunny and her newfound friends fight to prove that even LITTLE ponies can make a BIG difference.
Redmess
Oh yeah, that was posted elsewhere already.
This is a cleanup thread, though. We don't discuss the show itself here.
Optimism is a duty.
You accidentally included the word 'is' at the end of the url. Here's the fixed link.
For My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (IDW) "Issue 94 to 95", I've noticed a lack of presence/discussion of issue 95 in the fandom compared to 94.
I'm tempted to say it's Fanon Discontinuity over Pinkie Pie and Cheese Sandwich no getting the expected Relationship Upgrade making the comic seem pointless. But it seem to have have distribution issue that could have been the cause, but the lack of presence remains long after that. Any feedback on the matter?
Angry babby
I don't know much about the comics, but I do know the continuity between them and the main series is a bit wonky. I also know that Pinkie and Cheese do eventually become a couple in the series proper.
Redmess
We're on 95 already? Sheesh, that will take some catching up then.
Optimism is a duty.
It's not a continuity problem. It's disappointment over the comic not being the moment they became a couple as expected. It made the tease between them irrelevant as we know they will get together eventually.
I noticed it has even less fan presence than the "bad" comics and have asked elsewhere for any explanation besides to get nothing. I will be adding Fanon Discontinuity to it which can be removed if some other explanation for the lack of fan acknowledgment can be provided.
Amateur Veteran
Doesn't Fanon Discontinuity refer to when fans of a work actively decide to act as though a given installment and its associated events didn't happen? If all that's going on is that an issue (or episode or installment or whatever) doesn't get a lot of attention, that isn't Fanon Discontinuity.
Edited by Theriocephalus on Mar 19th 2021 at 1:39:11 PM
Redmess
Agreed, decreased fan interest in general does not mean Fanon Discontinuity, it just means that fans have lost interest in reading it at all. Fanon Discontinuity means that fans are actively disavowing an event or episode as canon.
Optimism is a duty.
@ Understood. I realized They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot is a better fit.
Decreased fan interest? I've seen multiple brony analysts talking about it. Yeah it's not THE most talked about S10 comic, but it's still got enough attention. Particularly from the Discord/Fluttershy shippers who loved the nod to their Maybe Ever After.
But yeah, They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot is in effect.
I'm expecting the next one to drop featuring how Rainbow and AJ become a couple.
Edited by Klavice on Apr 1st 2021 at 12:19:05 PM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Redmess
Brony analysts reviewing it is not necessarily a reflection of sales. Especially when those reviewers are rather desperate for content right now.
Edited by Redmess on Mar 22nd 2021 at 9:13:37 AM
Optimism is a duty.
The YMMV page for Forgotten Friendship. Thoughts?
- Adorkable: Wallflower Blush. Very shy and awkward, but passionate about a couple of things, such as her garden in the woods behind the school.
- Alternate Character Interpretation:
- Was pony Twilight Sparkle not bothering to ask about Flash Sentry or react to his pony counterpart (unlike last time) a sign she's lost interest in him, or was she just too preoccupied with the current situation to pay them mind? How indicative is this of their current relationship?
- Was the villains motive that Sunset Shimmer ignoring them showed she didn't deserve her redemption legit? A Dog-Kicking Excuse for acting out of jealousy? Or some of both?
- How much of Wallflower's being ignored and forgotten was due to her erasing everyone's memories? Her flashback show her being ignored well before she found the Memory Stone. Was she guilty of not making a effort to get noticed, or was her introduction indicative of how she tried but failed?
- Alternate Aesop Interpretation:
- Trying to reform? It is your responsibility to make sure you are friends with everyone.
- You should be aware about the problems of the people around you, even if you barely interact with them.
- Author's Saving Throw:
- After Sunset Shimmer's first return to Equestria in Magical Movie Night was widely seen as wasted potential for how little was done with the idea, Forgotten Friendship has Sunset go back to Equestria for much longer, interact with Princess Twilight again, and even apologize to Princess Celestia.Misuse
- Some found the group's ponied-up costumes from Legends of Everfree to be gaudy and overdone. The group gets new costumes in this film that are considerably simpler in design.Keep?
- One of the complaints towards Juniper Montage and the climax of "Mirror Magic" was Juniper's unnecessary and nonthreatening transformation, and many felt that the shtick of villains becoming Drunk on the Dark Side was getting stale. While the heroines do transform in the climax of the special, the villain does not, becoming Drunk with Power in a more realistic way (by having a powerful, easily exploited ability that they gradually abused more and more), which many fans appreciated.Reckon it's cuz of Wildflower's character so remove
- Awesome Music: The Villain Song, "Invisible", is extremely catchy. Shame it gets seemingly cut short by Wallflower spotting Sunset rooting through her backpack.Context, please?
- Base-Breaking Character: Wallflower Blush is yet another reformed villain, so it was inevitable. Many found her adorable and sympathized with her plight, while others felt she was Unintentionally Unsympathetic for the Misplaced Retribution.
- Best Known for the Fanservice: Both of sexy and plot-related kinds. The special is probably best summarized and remembered as "the one where Sunset and Celestia reunite, and there's also a Beach Episode with the girls in swimsuits."EEEEWWWWW!!
- Captain Obvious Reveal: It's fairly easy to deduce that Wallflower Blush is the culprit due to the fact that the show wouldn't introduce a new character with a name and personality unless they were going to become important and the only legitimate attempt at a Red Herring is Trixie, who was eliminated by then.
- Even Better Sequel: To the 4 existing films, since it not only maintains the high stakes that have been present in the movies, but take advantage of what has already been established by them to achieve a better connection, also the character development is done well, and the scenes of Sunset in Equestria were what fans had hoped to see from an Equestria Girls entry for a while.Misuse
- Fanfic Fuel:
- Sunset commenting on how Celestia now has a sense of humor continues to leave the floodgates wide open for interpretation of Sunset's time with Celestia as her student, especially since Celestia's sense of humor is a notable part of her character in the main series.
- What if Sunset or her friends didn't get their memories restored in the finale?Too much is spoiler-tagged.
- Foe Yay: Wallflower Blush seemed to want Sunset's attention more than anything else. The Luminescent Blush when Sunset is nice to her at the end only adds fuel to the fire. Also, the way she lashes out at Sunset for forgetting her could be seen as the actions of a Woman Scorned.
- First Installment Wins: The first of the YouTube specials, it's the best remembered for its strongest story, emotional stakes, and delivering the long awaited reunion of Sunset and Celestia that met years of high expectations.
- Ho Yay:
- One trailer for the special says "love is in the air at Canterlot High" as Sunset and Twilight pass each other and smile. Given that the two are the primary romantic pairing of the Equestria Girls series, and the creators surely know this, this is almost certainly a case of Trolling Creator. Not to mention the special airing only a couple of days after Valentine's Day.
- There's quite a lot of interactions between Trixie and Sunset that go beyond mere bonding throughout the story, such as when Trixie confides in Sunset that she feels constantly left out or underappreciated.
- Human Twilight gets a little bit more emotional reactions from Sunset than anyone else. Sunset is hit hardest by Human Twilight not remembering Sunset's role in the Friendship Games, and is also the last memories that get stolen from her by Wallflower, crying out "Twilight, don't forget me!" in anguish before they're taken away. When Sunset gets her memory back, the first person she recognizes is Twilight. They're also together in a yearbook photo.
- Though to a lesser extent than Human Twilight as mentioned, Sunset's reactions to the rest of the Humane Seven forgetting and treating her coldly show she doesn't take any of it well at all. And at the climax, her selfless Heroic Sacrifice in losing her memories of them and her time in the human world potentially permanently in order to make sure their friendships will still last even if she's not included (and crying out their names as those memories are erased) can invoke a sense of making the ultimate sacrifice for her loved ones.
- Princess Twilight and Sunset are rather touchy-feely with each other (albeit ponies are touchy-feely in general) and there's plenty of blushing between the two, most notably when Sunset calls Twilight a "good teacher".
- Harsher in Hindsight:
- What happens to the Sunset and Wallflower is pretty much the premise of Background Pony.
- It's harsh to take Wallflower's motive into consideration when you realize that, outside of Crystal Prep's students, none of the extra characters introduced like the Dazzlings, Gloriosa or Juniper ever make an additional appearance after their first (or if they do, it'd be a brief, speechless cameo or One-Scene Wonder and that's it) which means that Wallflower's plight and desire to be remembered and noticed will inevitably be for naught. That said, it doubles as Heartwarming in Hindsight as, now that she has brought herself in the forefront, she can now be used as reference for fan artists and fanfic writers, ensuring that she will be noticed and remembered.
- Informed Wrongness: Sunset Shimmer realizes she's at fault for provoking Wallflower Blush's retribution for ignoring them, thus failing to show them she had reformed. But given that she has saved the school multiple times and earned forgiveness from many people that she mistreated, it's hard to fault Sunset for assuming everyone thought her redeemed. Given Wallflower was so hard to notice they unsuccessfully tried to get their attention for a half a song and was just as forgotten by everyone else, it's unfair to fault or single out Sunset for it.
- Just Here for Godzilla: The biggest draw for many fans was Sunset Shimmer and Princess Celestia's reunion, a plot thread that has been left dangling for years.
- Memetic Mutation:
- When the premise first came out, references to Background Pony became widespread. Doubled when it actually aired, with Wallflower and Sunset being "inflicted by the Background Pony Curse" and calling Wallflower's Villain Song the "Background Pony Song".Misuse.
- Editing Wallflower Blush into backgrounds of virtually any scene — even non-pony stuff, like music videos or classic photos — has become a recurring joke due to this movie showing her as being in the background of scenes from previous movies.Also misuse.
- Narm: The resolution, where the main characters undergo their dramatic magical girl transformations and manifest a powerful friendship laser in order to... blow up a small rock. Which was in the possession of a completely unarmed student who had already given up and would likely have cooperated if they asked. Overkill much? (It doesn’t help that the transformation sequence alone is about 10 seconds longer than the actual battle itself.)Too much is tagged out, and misuse.
- Seinfeld Is Unfunny: The final fight was originally praised for fixing criticism from prior ones (gaudy transformations, the villain transformations becoming stale). The subsequent Rollercoaster of Friendship took its flaws Up To Eleven (lack of actual fights or danger, abrupt forgiveness for villains who had little to deserve it) causing the fight here to be viewed less favorably.Misuse.
- Signature Scene:
- Sunset's heartfelt reunion with Celestia. This effectively validates up to five years worth of fanon for just this scene alone.
- Sunset at the climax of the movie pulling a Heroic Sacrifice for her friends by Taking the Bullet.
- Squick: In the extended edition, Trixie happily chows down on a carrot that Micro Chips gnawed on that he tries to give Sunset to placate her.
- They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot: Out of everyone who had their memories of Sunset erased, Human Twilight Sparkle was the only character who wasn't too sure if Sunset was really bad or not, as she wasn't a student at Canterlot High School before the events of Friendship Games so she didn't really know Sunset back when she was a bully like everyone else did. With that in mind, Twilight could have checked to see if Sunset was really not a bully anymore through questioning her nice behavior despite being considered a bully and possibly even include the other Humane Five on that questioning, which would not only give them more purpose in the special but it would also actually make their bond with Sunset really speak out to how strong it is despite their memories of her erased. But unfortunately, Twilight's suspicions of Sunset is tossed out the window halfway into the special.
- Tough Act to Follow: Such that once it was announced Equestria Girls was canceled without a proper ending, some declared Fanon Discontinuity on the subsequent media to proclaim this the true finale of the series. Eh?
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Wallflower Blush was supposed to be sympathetic due to years of resenting being ignored and forgotten boiling over when Sunset Shimmer's disregard made them think Sunset was undeserving of her redemption and popularity. But aside from her introduction where it's unclear how hard she tried, Wallflower was never shown trying to get noticed, and admitted to erasing embarrassing memories of herself making their problems seem self-inflicted. Sunset was never any more guilty of disregarding them than the rest of the school, causing some to go so far as to compare singling out Sunset, then her friends, out for random revenge with a dangerous item to a school shooting.
- Win Back the Crowd: The works made after Legend of Everfree, while not unliked by most fans, left some feeling Equestria Girls was getting stale. Forgotten Friendship's return to a more adventurous and emotionally driven story renewed a lot of interest in the franchise.
Edited by Delibirda on Apr 5th 2021 at 7:56:30 PM
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
Redmess
- The Author's Saving Throw entries do address legitimate criticisms of previous movies.
- I think the Awesome Music example is just the song smoothly transitioning into a scene, with the implication that Sunset didn't notice the song going on.
- Fanservice, yeah, remove.
- I'm not sure who these fans are who thought this was an Even Better Sequel. I agree it seems to be misplaced.
- The fanfic fuel is spoilered because it reveals what happens in the ending of the movie.
- Tough Act to Follow, never heard of this one either.
Could you only include examples you disagree with next time? That makes reading through them much easier.
Optimism is a duty.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Yeah, I'm not sure what thoughts you're asking for when you copy and paste the entire YMMV pahe.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I didn’t have the time to tag everthing. I wanted to go over the entirety.
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
Angry babby
Having not seen the special, I can't verify whether the rest of the page is accurate or complaining or what. It'd help to give a little more explanation on your issues next time.
I can say the Alternate Aesop Interpretation should have more context on why people interpret that aesop. As for Harsher in Hindsight: Background Pony predates the release of this movie so it's not Hindsight, while the other Harsher entry is probably too meta and contradicts itself. The Narm entry seems like misuse for the same reason the one with the cell phone was — it's likely taken out of context to sound more pathetic than it really is. Seinfeld Is Unfunny is indeed also misuse.
I guess the first Memetic Mutation entry is misuse, but the second one is not. Editing a character into photos as a recurring fandom joke based on something from the movie fits the definition very well.
Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 5th 2021 at 1:52:59 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
So about the proposed changes to My Little Pony: Equestria Girls – Forgotten Friendship:
- Agree with cutting Narm, 1st Memetic Mutation entry, Harsher in Hindsight, Seinfeld Is Unfunny, and Tough Act to Follow (later works are criticized for their own merits as opposed to compared to FF).
I want to run by/clairify the other proposed cuts/alterations first:
- Alternate Aesop Interpretation: Should it be cut if we can't explain why they see the different than intended Aesop? (This is a big problem with AAI I've noticed.)
- Best Known for the Fanservice: Remove the whole thing or just the swimsuit part? (The other one is covered by Signature Scene.)
- Even Better Sequel: Misused when to the movies but valid to the previous EG entry. Cut or rework?
- Awesome Music: Not sure why it's being argued as not an example. The entry less about explaining why than complaining about it being cut short?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Apr 20th 2021 at 12:56:46 PM
The YMMV page for "The Ending of the End, Part 2" has this Wall of Text under Draco in Leather Pants:
- A Vocal Minority believe that the villain trio should have been given one Last-Second Chance to surrender and redeem themselves after they were depowered at least before turning them to stone if they still refused. As Unintentionally Sympathetic below points out, Discord was considered to have forced the villains into an evil plan disguised as Grogar with them not being given a chance to redeem themselves, forgetting that even if Discord didn't free them and managed to escape themselves they would still be committed to their evil acts since they have made it clear they have no interest in friendship or redeeming themselves according to Chrysalis who states they will never surrender and will always return to carry out their evil plans and them working together is not a sign of friendship since they're in on it only for their evil plans and tried to backstab each other every time one of them gains the upper hand and their betrayal of Discord shows that their own evil plans were not bound by being forced into Grogar's plan. The same fans were uncritical of King Sombra never being offered redemption despite him not even realizing the value of friendship, but rejecting it like them.
The entry above it already makes similar points and does it more concisely. I'm in favor of cutting this, but I'd like some input first.
Amateur Veteran
^Honestly, I'd say just expand the Broken Base example to cover the disagreement over whether a reformation should have happened or been offered. That strikes me as a more appropriate YMMV for describing the situation anyway.
Yeah, Starlight underwent quite a lot of rewriting between her first and later appearances. Insofar as her debut goes, she was definitely to believe what she was preaching.