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Misused (Alt names crowner 8/2/2017): Lolicon

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Aug 6th 2017 at 4:55:56 AM

Potentially we might want to make a term page for all the various terms and state that we don't want them used on the wiki.

  • Loli, basically referring to a character's body type being child like no matter the age. Often a token character.
  • Oppai Loli, child like but with breasts. Usually a joke with Height Angst in that only their breasts grew and not the rest of them.
  • Shota. Polite short girly looking boy without the typical bratty qualities, often cute enough to be a believable crossdresser. Extremely common in Yaoi works they are typically the Uke. In other works they might be the Gay Option. Can be any age but they are so cute they can pass for young girls without even dressing the part
  • lolicon and shotacon. in Japan they just mean pedo, in the west the meaning is more up for debate between pedo and just liking specific 2D art.

[up] Lucky Star's jokes would probably be more appropriate pointed to Petite Pride. Edit: nvm that's breasts only and not the complete package.

edited 6th Aug '17 4:57:21 AM by Memers

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Aug 6th 2017 at 5:08:52 AM

Yeah, I figured that the tendency to misuse medical terminology was not limited to the West. In trope terms however we do distinguish between Pædo Hunt which is for paedophilianote  and Ephebophile for the things colloquially called hebephilia and ephebophilia, so a little differentiation is needed.

I am guessing, we don't have Pedophilia Is A Special Kind Of Evil because these tropes are problematic and I've noticed a pattern of people tending to lump tropes together when they are about such things. See also the note above about Pædo Hunt.

As for removing, yes, de-wicking.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Aug 6th 2017 at 5:33:35 AM

Better Than It Sounds.Anime And Manga A To C; Yanked the whole citation seeing as it's that unclear even in-work.

It is correct but it's a muddy explanation.

The main character is supposed to be a lolicon who is destined to create a world that stops all aging at 12 so god sends an angel assassin to kill him as a teen. Instead she like him and tries to correct any perceived lolicon tendencies or general antics via extreme violence with spiked maces, bombs, dismemberment and other hilarious violence but she always resurrects him immediately afterwards.

It is implied that he isn't actually a lolicon but the end result is because he grows to like the angel who likes and constantly murders him via Stockholm Syndrome in a closed loop, never actually read the ending though. The angel looks young but I wouldn't call her a loli , looks around normal anime school age to me, can't remember if the show does or not.

Anime is weird....

edited 6th Aug '17 5:46:17 AM by Memers

MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Aug 6th 2017 at 5:47:11 AM

lolicon and shotacon. in Japan they just mean pedo, in the west the meaning is more up for debate between pedo and just liking specific 2D art.
Just to be sure I'm getting the "just liking specific 2D art" right, you mean "I only like fictional girls that way!", correct?

That aside, IIRC the Japanese manga/anime industry does use loli(con) and shota(con) in the names of the relevant porn subgenres (Yes, it's not exclusively a Western thing).

Back in the first lolicon TRS it was decided to make a dedicated trope for Evil Pedophile but Eddie insisted that Pædo Hunt was that trope
Is there any chance for revisiting that topic? Because that particular admin fiat seems to fly in the face of logic, with all due respect.

Artistic Age: I've replaced the first entry with the bare word "paedophile" and the second with a link to Lolicon and Shotacon as it refers to the third bullet point.
You accidentally placed a Wiki Word within a Wiki Word when you did the latter. Fixed it for you.

Character Gush.Anime And Manga and Cute Bruiser.Anime And Manga: Replaced "loli" with "girl" and "lolicon" with "paedophile".
... Actually, now that I've looked into it a little more closely, the Eden of the East entry on CharacterGush.Anime And Manga ought to be nuked outright, because the two characters are only one day apart in age and no Time Travel shenanigans or the like are in play. No idea what the person who wrote it was thinking.

Character Gush.Anime And Manga and Cute Bruiser.Anime And Manga: Replaced "loli" with "girl" and "lolicon" with "paedophile".
Tuned up your edits a little. "Girl-like" is age-ambiguous in common usage.

I am guessing, we don't have Pedophilia Is A Special Kind Of Evil because these tropes are problematic
By "these tropes", do you mean "X Is A Special Kind Of Evil"? And what do you mean by "problematic"? Are they prone to Trope Decay, or is it because they push the Moral Guardians-appeasing advertisers' Berserk Button like Naughty Tentacles does/did?

and I've noticed a pattern of people tending to lump tropes together when they are about such things.
What do you mean?

edited 6th Aug '17 5:48:03 AM by MarqFJA

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
Aug 6th 2017 at 5:55:23 AM

Going back a few - there are people who consider Mikuru Asahina a loli?! Did I read that right?

edited 6th Aug '17 5:58:13 AM by Willbyr

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Aug 6th 2017 at 6:01:54 AM

Ok, that was the A range. B-range:

Well, if "lolicon" and "shotacon" are really synonyms for "paedophilia" this might explain why the concepts are so widely used especially given the scattershot troping of these concepts. Thing is that not all cases qualify under a trope; some fall under Pædo Hunt or Comedic Lolicon and others under Squick and No Yay and others don't fall under anything.

@Memers #1: Perhaps the various "loli" forms would belong on Lolicon and Shotacon.

Shota however is more difficult. The reason why using "loli" as a synonym for "young girl" is banned is because the term is derived from Lolita and given its premise carries a "paedo bait" implication (previous discussion of the ban). I don't know if the same logic would apply to "shota".

@Memers #2: Well, given how muddy that is perhaps someone could rewrite that so that it's clear which trope applies. Pædo Hunt seems like given your explanation.

@MarqFJA:

  • Re Evil Paedophile: Possibly? Maybe a TRS on Pædo Hunt would help.
  • Re Character Gush-Anime & Manga: Stripped out any reference to paedo then.
  • Re "these tropes": The paedophilia tropes. We have had issues in the past both with them becoming paedo apologetic rants such as All Pedophiles Are Child Molesters did turn into as well as with actual abuse victims being triggered (not sure if that is a good formulation) by some of the tropes, as well as general Flame Bait.
  • Re "lumping": It is my impression that tropers tend to lump more when the trope is about some creepy or controversial or sexual subject.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Aug 6th 2017 at 6:24:07 AM

Going back a few - there are people who consider Mikuru Asahina a loli?! Did I read that right?
Not just people. She's described in-universe as such. Remember that "loli(ta)" isn't limited to prepubescent girls (at least in Japan). High school-age girls count if the other person is a significantly older adult (I'd say about 5-7 years difference at minimum). Heck, the original Lolita herself starts off as 12 years old and grows older over the course of the story.

We have had issues in the past both with them becoming paedo apologetic rants such as All Pedophiles Are Child Molesters did turn into as well as with actual abuse victims being triggered (not sure if that is a good formulation) by some of the tropes, as well as general Flame Bait.
The first and third issues could be remedied by locking the article and forcing all edits to pass through the Edit-locked thread. The second one... well, I don't know about you, but Sexual Harassment and Rape Tropes should be just as much triggers for abuse victims, yet we still have them.

Re "lumping": It is my impression that tropers tend to lump more when the trope is about some creepy or controversial or sexual subject.
Lumping in itself isn't bad. Shoehorning, however, is, and I think you mean that instead of the former.

edited 6th Aug '17 6:24:55 AM by MarqFJA

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
lu127 Paper Master Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Aug 6th 2017 at 8:28:02 AM

I've been summoned!!!

MemeticMolester.Anime And Manga: Asked in the thread re: Bleach and will ping ~lu127. There are two other entries that need opinions, though.

Hmmm...the first one is played for Comic Relief. Basically, Kyoraku hits on his lieutenant (a woman in her 20s) in the present time, and then we get a flashback where we see she's been with him ever since she was still a child (100 years ago). I don't remember if he was being lecherous when she was a child besides the usual "you'll grow up to be a beauty" comments.

The second one looks like nonsense to me, but I really do not remember those characters' relationship very well.

喜べ
Aug 6th 2017 at 8:53:17 AM

[up]"you'll grow up to be a beauty" Would be Wife Husbandry or Jail Bait Wait and not a lolicon.

@Memers #1: Perhaps the various "loli" forms would belong on Lolicon and Shotacon.

Shota however is more difficult. The reason why using "loli" as a synonym for "young girl" is banned is because the term is derived from Lolita and given its premise carries a "paedo bait" implication (previous discussion of the ban). I don't know if the same logic would apply to "shota".

The Shota in Shotacon comes from Shotaro Kaneda in Tetsujin 28 which inspired erotic fanfiction based around him and had a similar revolution as Lolicon did. Calling someone 'a Shota' is exactly the same as a loli although works tend to be even more blatant with it than Loli and will name the characters "Shota" as well. Its the lack of a proper noun usage that shouldnt be used.

@Memers #2: Well, given how muddy that is perhaps someone could rewrite that so that it's clear which trope applies. Pædo Hunt seems like given your explanation.
Well for Better Than It Sounds it looks like you basically write a premise to a work in the harshest way possible then claim its better than that sounds, right? then yeah that would work. I don't really want to edit a mods work though.

edited 6th Aug '17 8:56:14 AM by Memers

Gilphon Untrustworthy from The Third Sound Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Untrustworthy
Aug 6th 2017 at 3:38:07 PM

Wandering in from the Bleach thread here: lu has the right of it for Kyoraku. Starrk is a tricky case though. It could be particularly downplayed version of Comedic Lolicon or Mistaken for Pedophile, depending on your interpretation of the character. But equally, nothing explicitly sexual is going on, and it could just as easily be interpreted as a brother-sister or parent-child relationship.

So I dunno, really. When you get right down it, the overall dynamic is an adult man and a scantily clad underage-looking girl acting really familiar with each other. Make of that what you will.

edited 6th Aug '17 3:40:48 PM by Gilphon

"Canada Day is over, and now begins the endless dark of the Canada Night."
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Aug 6th 2017 at 3:46:25 PM

It may also be relevant to mention that Lilynette is more than eager to be physically violent/rough towards Starrk when he's being lazy (which is almost all the time), despite the fact that he's not only much bigger than her, but also much stronger. He mostly limits his disapproval of such behavior to verbal complaints; the "gun-butt" thing is about the first time he actually got physical in his response to her, IIRC.

Oh, and spoiler: They're two halves of the same entity, who only separated because they were fed up with the loneliness of their existence up to that point.

edited 6th Aug '17 3:47:49 PM by MarqFJA

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
Aug 6th 2017 at 4:11:31 PM

I think the only relevant part is that their relationship is close but never implied to be or depicted as romantic or sexual. They're more like family.

MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Aug 6th 2017 at 4:44:06 PM

Yeah... an effectively one-person family, if you take the above spoiler into consideration.

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
Aug 6th 2017 at 4:57:19 PM

On the Bleach entries:

The Gin and Aizen entries are nonsense and can be removed. Grimmjow, Ulquiorra, Tsukishima and Kugo are all Foe Yay examples dressed up for the wrong trope. The Chizuru example is Stalker with a Crush, and Giselle and Pepe should be Power Perversion Potential.

Mayuri, Szayelaporro and Luppi aren't engaging in actions that put them into child-related tropes, as they're dealing with adults. Mayuri is played for comedy, Szayel and Luppi are played for drama, with rape overtones. Szayel has an extra squick aspect with his characterisation while Luppi has the combat tentacle aspect.

That leaves:

  • Nnoitra is played for drama. He's a woman-hater, who can't stand females being on the battlefield and destests them having any power or higher rank than him. The entry is right, however, when it suggests that the scenes regarding Orihime have rape overtones. He offended the normally emotionless Ulquiorra with the implication, and stuck his fingers down Orihime's throat to silence her — a known Japanese porn kink that the Japanese animators caught and redesigned to Orihime just having a hand placed over her mouth. He fits women hater, sexism and rape threat tropes.
  • Kyouraku is portrayed as a womaniser in-story, and it's mostly played for comedy, with Nanao as the prim, bossy subordinate who keeps him in line. There has been some implications of personal feelings between the two (romantic or platonic has been left up to fans), so I think perhaps fans read a little too much into the flashback scenes where she was a child, especially since it was such a brief scene that focussed on a missing person they both cared about. We do later learn that Nanao is Kyouraku's niece, although the reveal scenes are still rather ambiguous for the fandom in terms of whether the love discussed is platonic or romantic.
  • The Coyote/Lilynette situation is very awkward to describe and categorise. Lilynette looks like a small girl, with stripperific clothing. She's very physical with Starrk, in a Double Standard: Abuse, Female on Male sort of way — he's lazy, she's energetic and bosses him around. However, she and Coyote are the same being split in half and when they rejoin, she's his weapon (two guns). I agree with Gilphon's take here. Depending on fan interpretation of how the two characters are presented, you're looking at Comedic Lolicon or Mistaken for Paedophile. Given that Mistaken for Paedophile would be purely audience-reaction (it's not a subject that ever crops up in story), Comedic Lolicon is probably the best choice, and even that will come up against fans who feel that it's more of a familial relationship than sexual.

edited 7th Aug '17 12:36:38 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it's just not worth reading.
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Aug 6th 2017 at 7:23:59 PM

[up] You're mixing up Nemu and Nanao in Kyoraku's entry.

That aside, one last fact about Lilynette and Starrk's weird relationship: Neither of them know which of them is the original personality/being... or if neither of them could be said to be the "original" (which is possible; for all we know, the original entity was a genderless/hermaphroditic existence whose age was between that of Lilynette and Starrk). And they also don't care about the issue.

edited 6th Aug '17 7:28:14 PM by MarqFJA

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
Aug 6th 2017 at 7:38:33 PM

It doesn't really matter that they're technically the same person, Marq. We do have tropes like Self Cest.

Anyway, the only example I can think of for a Comedic Lolicon in Bleach is probably Isshin, who creeps on his elementary school aged daughters.

Binbougami Ga is Comedic Lolicon. Edited the entry.

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Aug 7th 2017 at 12:15:57 AM

Memers, are you sure about the etymology of "shota"? The Lolicon and Shotacon page gives a different Trope Namer.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Aug 7th 2017 at 1:36:37 AM

Gigantor is the name for the heavily edited first Tetsujin 28-go anime series. Shotaro was renamed to Jimmy Sparks in that so in context of what we are talking about it it would be better to link to that.

edited 7th Aug '17 2:05:42 AM by Memers

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Aug 7th 2017 at 8:41:43 AM

Based on what I see here Kyoraku of Bleach is questionable, so I'll delete mention of them. Starrk I've flipped to Comedic Lolicon but if it's reliant on Alternative Character Interpretation it might just as well be removed completely. The non-Bleach examples seem to be No Yay so linked that instead of any lolicon trope.

No comments on the B-range? sad

And C-range:

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Aug 7th 2017 at 12:45:51 PM

You're mixing up Nemu and Nanao in Kyoraku's entry.

Can't believe I managed to do that. It serves me right for doing Mayuri and Kyoraku at the same time.

Thanks for pointing it out. I've corrected my post now.

I agree that the only real example in the manga of Comedic Lolicon is Isshin, but Rangiku may be a Comedic Shotacon example given that she's always giving her pre-teen captain Marshmallow Hell (a joke used much more in the anime than the manga).

Septimus Heap, I think your summary is about right for Bleach, including the fact that Starrk and Lilynette are an Alternative Character Interpretation problem.

edited 7th Aug '17 12:50:26 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it's just not worth reading.
SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Aug 8th 2017 at 8:47:31 AM

Still need some comments on the C and B examples before.

D and E:

Also, I've been changing references of Hu(m)bert from Lolita being a lolicon to ephebophile but I am not certain that is correct.

Finally, I see that some examples of Complete Monster use lolicon as a synonym for paedophile.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Aug 8th 2017 at 9:45:44 AM

I dont know anything about the works in post 119.

On the ones you just posted.

Yeah calling something 'loli-bait' is very inappropriate

That whole line needs to go for Disgaea, randomly calling a real person that is way inappropriate. Especially when the characters in the work are literally all over the place. The character in question is more aimed at being a Shana Clone, who is also young and short, but probably not enough to be included in that trope though.

Lucky Star, The scene that that happened was either a Comedic Lolicon or just saying he likes women of all shapes and sizes. He himself gets tons of jokes that are never made completely clear if he is Comedic Lolicon or misunderstandings leading to Mistaken for Pedophile played for comedy.

edited 8th Aug '17 9:53:37 AM by Memers

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Aug 9th 2017 at 9:17:36 AM

Ok, edited Characters.Dance In The Vampire Bund but is the text now better? Used "paedophile" in Distinction Without a Difference given the ambiguity.

F and G range:

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Aug 9th 2017 at 9:22:50 AM

FGO has a few very young girls in skimpy clothing but there's no sexual content or anything. It's just fanservice and no worse than stuff like Negima. Characters like Jack and Wu Zetian are definitely aimed towards a certain demographic but they don't get involved in any sleazy situations or anything.

As for Fate Apocrypha, it's the same character (Jack) I mentioned before. She's definitely marketed towards creepy fans, but she doesn't have any sex scenes or anything. I would just cut mention of people fetishizing her. The only close relationship she has in the series is with a crazy woman that adopted her and together they go and murder people.

edited 9th Aug '17 9:25:57 AM by Arha

Aug 9th 2017 at 9:30:37 AM

Yeah "shoujo-ai" has no lolicon requirement, literally it means "Girls' Love' usually in context of Class S romance, in Japanese they will invert it and say Girls' Love for Shoujo-ai.

In context of fanfiction the tag means ' girl on girl romance with no explicit sex'.

I dont know enough about the other works to really input.

edited 9th Aug '17 9:32:08 AM by Memers

Alternative Titles: Loliconalsoincludingshotacon
8th Feb '17 2:17:32 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
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