Is this an example?

Cut it. Other M's reputation has not improved in any meaningful way.

I moved that example to Creator Cameo on the main page, and cut the last line.

Edited by Primis on Jan 12th 2019 at 6:18:30 AM

I removed this from HateSink.Live Action Films:

• Who Framed Roger Rabbit: While he certainly has his cool aspects — mostly for being portrayed by Christopher Lloyd — it's still made clear that Judge Doom is a sadistic, heartless murderer who is responsible for the deaths of Marvin Acme and Eddie's brother; framing Roger Rabbit for the former's homicide. He then goes on to obliterate Toon Town so he could get rich and for pure sadism. His death from the hands of the dip he uses to kill off the Toons is certainly well-deserved.

Emperor Palpatine and Bill Cipher have been removed since they're too outlandish, stylish, and fun to watch count, I see no reason Doom isn't this as well. But the one who added it digresses so I'm bringing it here.

Since practically every villain is supposed to be hated (exceptions are rare enough they're its own trope, I think Hate Sink needs something stricter than just a lot of negative traits (like the conflict would be to impersonal, morally grey, outlandish or stylish to have someone to root against otherwise). Thoughts?

I agree that Hate Sink might need to be looked into.

I thought Hate Sink weren't use for villains because they are automatically hated.

I think Hate Sink should only apply in the following cases where the conflict needs someone to stand-out root against:

• It's morally gray otherwise.
• It's too impersonal (natural disaster, feral animal).
• It's too outlandish or fantastical to treat seriously.
• The other villains are too cool or fun to watch.

Thoughts on cleaning up anything that doesn't fit this? Or should such cleanup get a dedicated thread?

Most villains are Hate Sinks. If they're not, they're a sympathetic villain of some kind. The main reason it's not listed is because it's usually redundant. It's only interesting to list if it's not so completely expected. It's like why we don't list The Protagonist on every single protagonist.

Also, this is not a TRS thread for Hate Sink. Don't edit or remove examples because of how you think the trope should be.

Could I get some opinions on the What An Idiot examples I posted last page?

I think the Truth examples should be removed from Stealth Cigarette Commercial. Yes, Truth receives funding from cigarette companies, but that's required as part of a lawsuit settlement, and they have no control over the content of the ads. It's worth noting that I previously removed Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue from the list, since it was about illegal drugs.

That whole page could use a cleanup. A lot of those examples use some really warped logic.

Unless there already is, there should probably be a cleanup thread for Hate Sink. I mean, there is a reason why Evil Is Cool is a YMMV trope while Hate Sink isn't.

I'm wick-checking Continuity Tropes, and found this in VideoGame.Dota 2:

• Continuity Reboot: The original DotA never had much of a story past minor hero and items descriptions, and for the most of it used lore already established in Warcraft as a base. With the remake being developed by Valve, they couldn't obviously use anything relating to Blizzard products. This gave them the chance to completely clean the slate and create their own fantasy world, giving all the heroes completely new backstories, though still using the original DotA heroes as a base.

Shouldn't this be another trope like Screwed by the Lawyers?

I'm wick-checking Continuity Tropes, would really appreciate some help to ensure they're used correctly on work pages.

For anyone wondering why I'm focusing on Continuity Tropes, I often watched shows with Negative Continuity such as Dexter's Laboratory and Scooby and Scrappy-Doo.

I mean it can be both. They rebooted the continuity because legal reasons forced them to.

Anticlimax

• In the season 4 finale we finally get to see Nightmare Moon in action, doing all the Nightmare Mooning that led to all of Luna's guilt as The Atoner and saw her locked away for one thousand years: a brief fight with her sister where she landed one or two good hits before being taken down by the Elements of Harmony.

I've previously deleted this with permission because it's Anti-Climax Boss, but it's a Tear Jerker and Moment of Awesome so it's presented as climatic in work. Many anticlimax examples are effectively complaining about poorly done or on-sided climaxes even if it was presented as climatic in-work. I'd delete but I'm saving this for a TRS.

Should I make a TRS at this time? If not, how many TRS's should we be reduced to first? I'm almost done with one, can I start after finishing it? Would it be better if I just removed misuse?

Fair enough. I'll leave that as it is, but add Screwed by the Lawyers to the trivia page, unless that's re-duplication.

I'm currently also checking Broad Strokes, wick-checking that, to ensure that usage of the trope fits the definition, as some entries are short for this trope on works pages and I'm not sure if the trope is misused or not.

From Star Trek Novel Verse:

Broad Strokes: Not all the little details add up, but most of the series currently running contribute to a shared continuity (the tropes listed here being those which relate to this continuity).

From Arpeggio of Blue Steel (tropes exclusive to the anime):

• Broad Strokes: The anime isn't really following the manga faithfully, to say the least.

Wouldn't this be another Derivative Works trope?

From Straight Outta Compton (not sure if this even fits Broad Strokes):

• Broad Strokes: Generally, the movie is stated to be this by the people involved in the real-life events with a few notable exceptions. Several of the more unbelievable scenes, however, actually did occur.

Isn't this Artistic License – History , Dramatization, Very Loosely Based on a True Story.

I'm slowly checking each example where Broad Strokes is linked to, I'd appreciate it if anyone can check these examples.

Thank you for your help last time.

I'd like to bring up these examples from The Dom Reviews:

First does this example look extreme to qualify as Internet Backdraft?:

• Internet Backdraft: Not all of his fans were happy when he reviewed Power Rangers, and suggested that Zordon was irresponsible for making autistic kid Billy pilot the Megazord.

Secondly given how often Narm is misused on this website, could I get some clarification as to whether this example is being used correctly?:

• Narm: The recap at the beginning of Part 2 of the Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince's LIA has The Dom in character as Terrence mime the words he was saying at the end of Part 1 to the audio from it. The problem is that his mouth doesn't always sync up and it makes you wonder why he didn't just rerecord himself saying that in front of the camera with the same delivery when he did just that to finish the sentence Terrence was originally going to say before being shot by The Dom directly after that, or just record himself as Terrence saying the lines the first time.

Star Trek Novel 'Verse:

• A little bare of context, but overall it looks okay.
  Arpeggio Of Blue Steel
• ZCE
  Straight Outta Compton
• I think that's supposed to be Dramatization.

From YMMV.Josie And The Pussycats:

• Adaptation Displacement: In Outer Space overshadowed the original series so much, some kids were shocked they weren't always in space.

How accurate is this? The 1970 cartoon seems way more well-known than the 1972 one.

I remembered the original then the Space adventure.

I find that example extremely difficult to believe. I'd cut it.

HateSink.Pokemon

• Paul from the Diamond and Pearl series is an odd example of this. He has a low opinion on "weak" Pokémon, which often makes Ash angry, and it's not helped by the fact that in most battles, Ash couldn't win. Later episodes do try to remedy Paul's character a bit, but he remains immensely divisive in the community in all ways but being a good rival for Ash. Basically you will find many fans who will declare him Ash's best rival, but at the same time the most 'loathsome' of the rivals by far.

He's also listed under Creator's Pet and Character Shilling, the opposites. And half this entry is debating fan reaction.

No, Paul doesn't sound like a Hate Sink.

As for the Broad Strokes examples, anyone want to offer a second opinion?

From Pokémon: I Choose You!:

• Canon Discontinuity: While most Pokémon movies are loose with canon at best, this movie is explicitly non-canon and is set in an alternate universe.

Wouldn't this make it Non-Serial Movie? Shouldn't it also be Alternate Continuity and Continuity Reboot (since it's the movies, not the series, which is a Long Runner).

Yet Continuity Reboot says about Pokémon: I Choose You!:

• Pokémon: I Choose You! is an odd case — while the main series is still going, this is a Continuity Reboot for its movies, forgoing the Non-Serial Movie that usually ran side by side with the anime in favor of a brand new universe.

Plus, this from Non-Serial Movie (should it be moved to Alternate Continuity or Jumping-On Point):

• Inverted and subverted with the Marvel Cinematic Universe, in which the films are the prime continuity, and the spinoff shows are, in a sense, Non-Serial Series. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Agent Carter, Jessica Jones (2015), Daredevil and so forth are oficially part of the MCU, and repeatedly confirmed to be so. At the same time, however, the events of television productions have almost no impact on the direction of the films and their Myth Arc. This has caused significant friction between the two studios, especially as the films can upset the status quo of the world at any time, and the showrunners are often left scrambling to keep up.^note As happened following the massive shakeup caused by Captain America: The Winter Soldier, which actually dismantled SHIELD. While Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. was still airing its first season. Meanwhile, it's been made clear numerous times that the films have no intent on using or referencing developments from the television side of things.^note Case in point, the resurrection of Ensemble Dark Horse Phil Coulson in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., and Whedon explicitly stating the films will carry on as if Coulson is Deader than Dead.

and:

• Star Trek (2009) and its sequels are set in an alternate continuity from the rest of the shows and movies in the Star Trek franchise. Interestingly, the two universes are connected. The movie verse was created by a man from the main continuity travelling back and splitting the timeline.

Plus, this ZCE from Arpeggio of Blue Steel, referring to the anime adaptation:

• Broad Strokes: The anime isn't really following the manga faithfully, to say the least.

I'm not familiar with the source material, so this would need an expert on here to check.

Also relating to Broad Strokes, from Darkness Series:

• Broad Strokes: This is a fantastic version of World War II, but not everything exactly matches up, the order of events is sometimes different, and expectations are played with.

Shouldn't this go under:

• Alternate History: Sort of, appropriately enough given Turtledove's other works. Putting things in Real Life terms, this version of World War II starts when Germany marches into Danzig—Poland is not conquered until the end of the first book. Britain isn't a member of the Allies from the start. And America and Japan are already at war before the main war begins.

I'm not sure if Broad Strokes and Non-Serial Movie are used correctly, and whether these two tropes are misused.

Is Broad Strokes one that is misused and could be Square Peg Round Trope?

Sorry for wall of text!

Edited by Merseyuser1 on Jan 14th 2019 at 3:47:33 AM

The original Pokémon movies were Non Serial Movies, but Pokémon: I Choose You! was a Continuity Reboot for the movies, so I think that makes the new ones an Alternate Continuity, since the main series is still ongoing.

The MCU movies and shows are explicitly canon with each other, they just don't affect each other much, making it a Shared Universe.

Star Trek (2009) is explicitly an Alternate Timeline / Alternate Continuity.

Don't really know enough about the others, but the Darkness one does sound like Alternate History. The Arpeggio example is a ZCE, so it should at least be commented-out, regardless if it's the correct trope or not.

Found this on YMMV.Shinedown:

I don't think Song Association should be listed on the musician's page, but even so, this just seems like a list of "songs that were used in this work", it doesn't really explain how these songs have been associated with these works.

"Diamond Eyes" was on the soundtrack for The Expendables, it was specifically written for that movie, so does it even count?

Edited by Primis on Jan 14th 2019 at 7:57:48 AM

HateSink.Animated Films

• The Great Mouse Detective has Ratigan, an evil crooked rat who kidnaps innocent kids and drowning them offscreen and even tries to kill Olivia inside Big Ben, his death by falling down the bell tower is a pretty entertaining punishment for him.
• Lord Farquaad from Shrek is a vicious, oppressive Lord who Persecutes innocent Fairy Tale Creatures and he has Killed one of the 3 bears (Mama Bear) offscreen and turn her into a Skin rug, his death by getting eaten by Donkey's wife the Dragon is well Satisfying.

The troper who added them also added an example I cut since they got redeemed in the same work. This doesn't explain why they avoid any likable or fun traits. Cut?

• The Lion King: Scar is a ruthless, cruel bastard who killed his brother in cold blood and blamed Simba for his death. He's obviously meant to garner as much of the viewers' hatred as possible. However, Scar ended up being a Love to Hate example due to his awesome charisma and cultured attitude, thanks in large part to his voice actor. This lead a lot of viewers to having mixed feelings, hating him for his ruthless cruelty but also finding him interesting and entertaining to watch. Ultimately,Ultimately, being eaten by the hyenas he betrays is well deserved.
• Judge Claude Frollo from The Hunchback Of Notre Dame is a cruel and hypocritical tyrant who was willing to drown an infant Quasimodo simply because he was disfigured. He later lays siege to all the gypsies in Paris because he lusts for Esmeralda and convinces himself that it's her fault for being a temptation. In the end, his Disney Villain Death was definitely well deserved.

Half of the firsts is arguing that Scar got unexpectedly popular, and I know Frollo got the same. Again, doesn't explain why they avoid any likable or fun traits, with their popularity suggesting they did have them. What to do?

Third time now Hate Sink has come up. Worth taking up with ATT or some other cleanup yet?

There's also this from Samurai Jack:

Given the misery and destruction Aku has unleashed upon the world, it would seem damn near impossible to find him likeable in any way. Although this ended up backfiring horribly, as Aku quickly became one of the most reconized and popular Cartoon Network villains.