Removing complaining, bashing and other negativity from the wiki

Yeah, I don't think we'd lose much of value by making Fandom Heresy exampleless.

And I agree with your specific example: it's some weird Fan Myopia for that specific show.

EDIT: Gaah, pagetopper. Talking about the Fandom Heresy example for Helluva Boss.

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Apr 5th 2024 at 6:05:30 AM

The entry does feel a little inappropriately targeted given the Character Blog for Octavia was shut down specifically because of people being sexually inappropriate. I agree the discourse isn't unique enough to the show.

(IIRC, Fandom Heresy was exampleless for a while, or at least no on-page examples, but was loosened to catch misuse of Fandom Berserk Button after it became Fandom-Enraging Misconception.)

Jeez, reading through Fandom Heresy, I wanna like it, but I'm finding a lot of awful stuff.

For instance, in the millionth time I've brought this up here, Elmo complaining:

• Saying that you unironically like Elmo will have older fans strongly teach you a lesson on how you should leave certain things in the past rather than stick with them. And yes, it won't be pretty.

This is not even close to a hot take. I'm on the Tough Pigs Discord, probably the largest Muppet fan Discord. There was a TON of broken base regarding the recent incident of Larry David strangling Elmo, and while most of the "this is awful and not funny" reactions some had were out of concern for Ryan Dillon's poor arm, some were genuinely upset to see Elmo get hurt. I'd dare say that Elmo is significantly more loved than hated nowadays. In terms of fanart, while still kind of rare (Pogey has largely taken over Muppet fan art as of late), I still see Elmo fanart on the server and nobody ever goes "eww, Elmo!" when it is posted.

There's a lot of other complaining too, like these music entries.

• Never say that you like Justin Bieber unless you're really a fan of him.
• Don't say that you like Kidz Bop unless you're under 10.
• The Wiggles: Most fans won't care if you like Sam, just don't say he's a better yellow Wiggle than Greg. And whatever you do, never, ever bring up Emma, Lachey, and Simon. (Bolding added by me to show offending part)

There's also this really caustic Pokémon entry:

• In recent years, the franchise has started to experience overt nostalgia pandering, mainly towards Gen I, with the abundance of Gen I Pokémon present in regional Pokédexes, and the majority of Mega Evolutions, Gigantamax Forms, regional forms, convergent forms, and the like being Gen I Pokémon, which has started to tick off the fanbase as such Pokémon at times overshadow newer ones. Saying you support Game Freak's pandering of older Pokémon will get the rest of the fandom pissed at you.

And another Pokémon entry that maybe belongs more under Is This An Example, but I still gotta question, as I think it would be very uncontroversial to call Ghetis, Lusamine and Volo just as vile:

• Largely due to the scale of his plan, the majority of the fandom considers Cyrus (and by extension, Team Galactic) to be the most dangerous and threatening villain in the series. Saying that he isn't can cause them to turn against you.

Edited by AlmightyKingPrawn on Apr 5th 2024 at 12:22:48 PM

I really dont get the point of the "trope", I get not wanting the wiki to be ALL PRAISE ALL THE TIME but we really need to tell these people to make a blog if they want to rant or whine like this.

The "trope" is, in theory, about views so dominant in the fandom that expressing anything different is considered Flame Bait (which could potentially make the page eligible for a move to Darth Wiki if there is anything salvageable).

The first two music entries are misuse (since this is about fandom heresy), so, at the very least, they can go. The part about Justin, in particular, was added in 2022, long past the height of his hatedom in the early 2010s.

In general, some of the on-page examples seem outdated. For example, the vitriol against Batman & Robin had softened up to the point of it becoming more acceptable to like it in a So Bad, It's Good way as a result of films like Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice being excessively grim. Saying anything positive about BvS also isn't really an act of heresy because it has a very vocal fandom despite its bad reviews (likely vocal enough for Snyder fans to consider saying anything negative about it heresy).

As sick as I personally am of everything and anything Kanto, idk if that's a majority opinion. The pokemon fandom is infamously prone to disagreements.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 5th 2024 at 1:23:39 PM

It's also insanely huge. There are plenty of people sick of Kanto but there are still many people nostalgic for Gen I. Otherwise cashing on it wouldn't be so profitable.

I think Fandom Heresy has some validity in discussing fandom consensus, but really feels like Flame Bait to me in practice, especially with the tendency towards informal and threatening examples.

It kinda does feel weird to be discussing from the POV of "here's the wrong opinion" and less from "here's the fandom consensus". Like we'd have less problems if it were just from the alternate angle.

Whether or not it should be Flame Bait or exampleless might be a discussion for TRS.

Edited by costanton11 on Apr 5th 2024 at 3:43:08 AM

Yeah a lot of the entries are simply "Don't criticize the original movie" which isn't really a specific take, and even so, even those entries may have parts that even diehard fans dislike. There are a few notable entries I saw:

• Coco: Don't say that you approve of Ernesto de la Cruz and his actions (except praising Benjamin Bratt's performance), otherwise you'll wish the fandom never remembered you for that.
  I have never seen a single person agree with or support Ernesto (apart from liking him as a villain), he literally commits murder by poisoning his songwriting partner Hector and stealing his work.

• Despicable Me: Go up to any fan and say that you still like the Minions and they're the best part of the movie and even merely mentioning them. Those poor little critters got hit by this like a truck by the time the prequel got released.
  The minions have a large Periphery Hatedom but people who like the Despicable Me series generally do like them. The amount of merchandise and spinoffs prove that a lot of people still like the minions and that it's popular to like them.
  • Similarly, do not speak positively of Alien³, as fans loathe that movie for the massive Happy Ending Override of the much beloved ending of Aliens. Do so and you'll be taken out by another Xenomorph.
  I have seen fans speak positively of Alien 3 (even if they are mostly referring to the assembly cut), it is not the most hated entry in the franchise either due to Resurrection and Covenant.

• "Crocodile" Dundee: While the two sequels can be criticized, criticizing the first movie will get you stabbed by none other than Dundee himself.
  This film has a 59 percent audience score on RT and a 6.6 on IMDB, I think it's fair that criticizing this film is OK.

• Halloween: Do not speak positively about Halloween: The Curse of Michael Myers, which was so negatively received that the next film ignores it and the two that came before it. Otherwise, you'll be killed by Michael Myers himself.
  This film is still generally disliked by the fandom, but it does have some fans (which increased with the Producers Cut though some still hate that), and there are entries that are hated more like Resurrection, the Rob Zombie remakes, and 5. Really the only movies that don't have a Broken Base and are largely liked are the original, and to a lesser extent 2018.

• The Last of Us:
  • The Last of Us: Do not say that you agree with the Fireflies' decision to sacrifice Ellie for the Cordyceps vaccine^note While it's presented as the only option in-game, it would definitely be possible in real life to get antibodies without killing the host. or that Joel was in the wrong for massacring the Fireflies in order to save Ellie.
  • The Last of Us Part II: Don't say that Joel deserved to be killed by Abby for his actions in the previous game, or you'll be clubbed just like he was.
  Both of these opinions have notable supporters though, due to Joel's large status as a Base-Breaking Character both of these opinions can be seen in online discussions.
  • Saying that Indy's involvement in Raiders of the Lost Ark's plot was irrelevant and that the outcome would've been the same even if he did nothing will cause the fandom to melt your face.
  I've seen fans say this about all 5 movies, it's not a fandom hated take at all.

Looked at the Pokémon entries since I'm in a lot of fan spaces. Its a bit of a doozy.

Yeah I noticed a lot of the entries are opinions that no one has (ie no one's defending Ernesto, Ghestis, Umbridge and Gothel), opinions that are dated, hatedom instead of fandom opinions (ie Justin Bieber, Kidz Bop, Elmo, Minions), and opinions that are too Broken Base to be a true consensus (like the Last of Us opinions, but also stuff like HP/HG movies versus books, Scott's Tots (as that episode also had positive reviews))

I missed the discussion regarding Fandom Heresy, but there was a TRS thread that proposed making it Flame Bait, but the consensus on the crowner went in the opposite direction by removing the No On-Page Examples restriction it had before the thread was made.

(Pretty much the same thing happened with this TRS thread that resulted in Bile Fascination having its own ban on non-page examples lifted, with the difference being that making it In-Universe Examples Only was proposed instead of making it Flame Bait.)

Edit: Neglected to mention that if it's determined that Fandom Heresy's complaining is bad enough (and/or if there are other problems), making a new TRS thread with a new wick check would be an option, especially since it's been about four years since the previous one.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 5th 2024 at 8:56:03 AM

Honestly, Fandom Heresy reminds me of Fandom-Enraging Misconception when it was called Fandom Berserk Button and allowed unpopular opinions (as noted above, some of the examples may have come from there).

Edited by Lymantria on Apr 5th 2024 at 1:07:19 PM

I think the way Fandom Berserk Button was being misused (before we renamed it to Fandom-Enraging Misconception) might be the actual definition of Fandom Heresy (though I could be mistaken because I didn't know about Fandom Heresy until some point after Fandom Berserk Button was renamed), or at least close to it. However, there was a crowner option for "Redefine to incorporate former Fandom-Enraging Misconception misuse when it was still known as "Fandom Berserk Button" (not necessarily mutually exclusive with other options)" in the 2020 TRS thread; it didn't have enough consensus in favor of it (it had a positive ratio, but was below the minimum 2:1 threshold).

Anyway, we should probably get back to discussing specific examples, and save any further discussion for Fandom Heresy as a whole for Trope Talk or TRS.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 5th 2024 at 12:26:18 PM

Additionally those "Don't criticize the original movie" examples previously mentioned seem more like Sacred Cow, so perhaps they could be under those tropes.

Edited by costanton11 on Apr 6th 2024 at 9:55:59 AM

Also, I notice that there are multiple examples that still use the old "Don't say this thing or the fandom will recreate this one specific No-Holds-Barred Beatdown from the franchise on you!" format that once was found on every single example.

Bringing this up from Just Here for Godzilla. This example is very whiny.

• A textbook example with the Trope Namer is is The Godzilla Power Hour. The series is another low-budget Hanna-Barbera cookie-cutter cartoon with a forgettable human cast, Strictly Formula story, Limited Animation, and annoying Kid-Appeal Character. The only real reason anyone still mentions or watches the show is because Godzilla is one of the main characters.

Edited by DongwaChan on Apr 6th 2024 at 4:56:52 AM

All of it can be condensed as "forgettable" and get the point across.

"The only reason anyone reminds this series, despite being one of most forgettable efforts by Hanna-Barbera, is because Godzilla is on it".

The Blockbuster Buster:

• He Panned It, Now He Sucks!:
  • Mixing with his hatred of the DC films is his bashing of Robert Pattinson, vowing to never watch The Batman after he was cast in the title role, simply because he previously starred in the Twilight movies. When others brought up other films Pattinson starred in such as Good Time or The Lost City of Z, where he gave some critically lauded performances, he responded by mocking the films and refusing to ever watch them either, which didn't net him any favors as people saw it as him coming off as closed-minded.

My issue with this entry is that he didn't make these comments during his review. These seem to be things he's said on social media.

I think I’ve seen a few examples of social media bashing ending up as entries

Ultimate Fairy

I think what this is trying to say is that after a new author took over, they've instated several changes that weren't well received but I ended up going cross-eyed. Is there any way to sum up the reactions without this Wall of Blather?

Is it just me or is this example from mother! (2017) rather complain-y? If so, is there a more neutral way to write it?

From what i remember, there isnt anything factual in the movie about religion, correct or incorrect. Its all heavily symbolic and isnt trying to be a realistic depiction of aby real world form of Christianity.

If im reading it right, AL: R is for things like...if i write a story where somebody other than St. Peter is the first Pope, traditionally speaking. A fact about a religion depicted incorrectly, either out of ignorance or for a deliberate narrative purpose.

Its not for "this symbolism is bad." So on those grounds the example might need to be cut.