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Edited by ACW on Jul 27th 2019 at 2:06:53 PM

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

On Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement, please add this:

To discuss handling this rule, use this thread (or this thread for political issues).

It directs tropers to useful forum threads in case they are not sure if an example violates that rule.

Limpin' with the bizkit.

The game is still publicly available and we shouldn't be policing people's ability to trope on assumptions like that.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

The moment someone comes forward and says, "I have played the game and can vouch from personal experience what tropes are present in it," I will be more than willing to take their word for it and support them in creating a page.

So far no one has done that.

Edited by HighCrate on Jul 26th 2019 at 6:37:13 AM

...And why exactly does that make a difference?

Even if I haven't experienced the work firsthand, other people have, and they've provided screenshots of the work which can be used to trope it.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Is the screenshot the work? Are we troping screenshots now?

The screenshot is a screenshot of the released work, which makes it valid as long as I don't infer anything that isn't there.

(Anyway, I've recreated the sandbox page.)

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

that strikes me as a rather blatant end-run around the spirit of the rules.

The screenshot or the sandbox?

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

The sandbox.

Look, it's not complicated. The proper order is: experience work, decide what tropes apply, make example write-up with full context.

It doesn't suddenly become a good idea to trope a work you've never experienced just because a release date in one part of the world passed. And doing it in a sandbox doesn't make it okay either.

Those are loopholes, and pretty blatant ones.

Seeing a playthrough has always been experiencing a work. The only thing it means is that not every trope you add is possible for you to verify(like That One Boss). That's something that's way more personal. There's a lot that can be fleshed out by regular playthroughs. Including character tropes alone. There's more than enough cutscenes(if shown) that have tropable content. It's not a remote issue at all. As long as it's actually public, and the tropes have context and are accurate.

This isn't writing a review(where you should be experiencing a work personally before doing so, as it's actually opinion-based entirely, and a personal one no less). This is troping a page where all public and accurate information on a product is fair game to use, as long as you can provide proper context. Which isn't honestly that hard when public information exists to begin with. I'm going to re-quote Fighteer's Mod Post for a moment, as we do have a ruling that is specifically in favor of troping it; "and there's no publicly available information from people who have played the game, then don't add tropes to the article." Since there is blatantly public information(actual playthroughs), as has been established before by multiple people, it fits within exactly what the point is. That is the spirit of the rules, using proper materials to trope. The only thing to be weary about is screenshots, as those can sometimes be beta, not final. Video playthroughs can still work well with it. If things change, we can still provide context of that change, as beta content is still useful information about a work(though less useful than the finished product), but to be fair, a lot of stuff changes via patches too. If the information is something we can trope, it's not a problem to use it.

A screenshot that somebody posted somewhere is not a full work that you have experienced or watched. It's a freaking screenshot. Next thing you know we'll be adding characterization tropes because someone posted a picture of an actor's big toe while they were in makeup.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

That's why I agree we should be weary on screenshots. For the work in question, we do have actual playthroughs of it(Pokemon Masters).

Which is what many are arguing should be allowed to be used(with Highcrate the only one who doesn't want us to use playthroughs, just to clarify).

I'll give you that.

~HighCrate: If there is a published playthrough of a finished work available, it is fair game for troping.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Is there a publicly-available full playthrough of the final game? When I was looking into it yesterday it was scattered reports of a partial build being released in Singapore, with not much reliable confirmation of even that much.

Which is exactly why it seems like a good idea to wait. What's the rush?

Edited by HighCrate on Jul 27th 2019 at 7:27:54 AM

I don't know if preview builds are treated as Unreleased Works or not. If they are, then could you please bring that information you found about it being a preview build to the Unreleased Works thread(and of course cite where you found out it's a preview build).

We have a long precedent of allowing the troping of pre-release content in video games, especially if there are open betas or a game is in early access. These are playable versions even if they are not the final version — or if, in the case of many games, there is no "final" version as content is continually added.

That said, the content must be publicly available. Closed or private betas are not suitable for troping (unless there are legal gameplay videos published by players of those betas).

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 27th 2019 at 10:58:12 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Right now our public information, from these preview builds only, are specific to Youtube videos people brought up. To clarify more, this isn't a worldwide release, but they're allowed to put up in public, so it's nothing like a NDA situation. I don't know if this would be okay or not with what you're saying. I do admit it toes the line to some degree. I wouldn't call this a completely private release, but only because they're putting it on Youtube(which is what is public for the wiki in itself).

Oh, you clarified. Yeah, they're legal published videos from what we can see(and quite a few), though I don't know if there was an NDA at all whatsoever. If there isn't, there shouldn't be an issue troping it. NDA means they're breaking the protocol and it shouldn't be online, basically(or more or less I'm repeating the obvious here).

Edited by Irene on Jul 27th 2019 at 10:03:27 AM

It's borderline. Any examples should state that they are based on a gameplay video from a non-public version. Really, I'd just leave off. This breathless rush to put content up baffles me. Nobody is going to lose their lives if you wait until a public release.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Please see my edit for more clarification.

Also, nobody's trying to rush anything. We just want to make sure it's done right and by the rules. If we have proper information, cool. If we don't, cool. It's not a big deal either way.

You may not be trying to rush things, but other tropers are in such an all-fired rush to trope a work they've never experienced and which is only kinda-sorta released that they couldn't even wait for the mods to unlock the page and created a sandbox instead.

Masters is a released work (in early access), and is publicly available in multiple countries.

Per what I believe current policy to be, there is no need to cite sources for examples, because it no longer falls under the unreleased work policy. (It's still a good idea to cite early-access tropes, it just isn't technically required.)

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

It might be good to at least discuss the sandbox version of the page while citing the videos in the thread that's working on creating the page. But that's more or less the most needed to be done for citings. I mean, if we need a thread for the sandbox page, anyway.

I do agree with Fighteer's point that this is a weird situation, though I do think it's fine to trope since it's got a release, and has full-out gameplay videos. So it shouldn't be an issue having any proper tropes and context to begin with.

Anyway, do we have a Sandbox started, or was the page already made?

I'm gonna consolidate everything:

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At Anime & Manga: G to N:

• For Legend of Zelda, please change the namespace for Ganon to Characters
• For Legendary Starfy, please remove the potholes around "redeeming" and "traits".
• For the Naruto tree, please replace Kazuma with this:
  • Shippuden anime-exclusive characters:
    • Twelve Guardian Ninja Arc: Kazuma, also known as Furido, is a former member of the Twelve Guardian Ninjas and was a friend and comrade of Asuma Sarutobi and Chiruku. He saw the Hokage, and by extension, useless and threats to the figurehead Fire Daimyo in the Land of Fire. Originally, he convinced half of his comrades to try to assassinate the Hokage while Asuma stopped him, and seemingly killed him. Years later, after it was revealed he implanted Kurama's chakra into his son to create a weapon to destroy Konoha, he attacks dozens of border towns with his men. After killing thousands of people, he raided the tombs of his former comrades and would use them to make a Weapon of Mass Destruction to incinerate every man, woman, and child in Konoha to the ground, all the while constantly beating and manipulating Sora to turn on his new friends. The people he killed on the border towns were used to create a small-scale Zombie Apocalypse around Konoha to distract, and trap, everyone in the village. Finally, when that plan failed he triggered his son's Superpowered Evil Side and sent him to destroy Konoha.
    • Power Arc: Disonasu seems to be the kind leader of Hachō Village. In truth, he is a Serial Killer who once collaborated with Orochimaru on Reanimation. Desiring power after a defeat at the hands of Pain, Disonasu teams up with Kabuto in order to acquire the ancient device known as the Ama no Hoko, ordering and participating in a massacre on the nearby Tonika Village to gain the "Sounds" necessary to activate it. When he finds two of the Sounds missing, Disonasu orders Kabuto to attack his own village to find them, resulting in a battle that nearly destroys the whole town in the process. In spite of being aware of the world-destroying power of the Ama no Hoko, Disonasu activates it anyway for the simple reason of wanting to regain the power that he lost long ago.

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• At Comic Books: I to Z, for Reborn, please wrap Spree Killer around "murdered him and 27 others".
• Ditto "massacres his way through Hob's Heights" for Alexander Trent at Superman.
• At Marvel Animation, for The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, for Zemo, please replace the Nazi Nobleman pothole with Baron Zemo.
• At Marvel Comics, for Captain America, for Zemo, please pothole Baron Heinrich Zemo to Baron Zemo and remove the Offing the Offspring pothole.
• At Complete Monster, for Karza (comics), please add a (Marvel Comics) at the end of each and close the italics for the third.
• At Comic Books, for the first Marvel entry, please pothole Baron Helmut Zemo to Baron Zemo (might as well also pothole Heinrich Zemo to Nazi Nobleman).
• At Marvel Cinematic Universe, please change the pothole around Baron Helmut Zero from Big Bad to Baron Zemo.
• At Western Animation, for Earth's Mightiest Heroes, for Zemo, please change Aristocrats Are Evil to Baron Zemo and pothle "Masters of Evil" to The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes! – Masters of Evil.

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Okay, now most, but NOT all, of these are rewrites. From here:

• Complete Monster:
  • At AniManga, please move Zardoz before Junta, add Jackal before Uighur, and add Ikaros.
  • Skull, Overlord and Pharma go to Comic Books.
  • Sander goes to films.
• Everything from Brad to Stegman goes to Film A To C, while Annabelle goes at the center of that page's Conjuring tree.
• Chang through Henry go to Film D To G.
• Caine through Wilkes go to Film H To L.
  • At the same page, for Haunted Palace, please close the brackets for the Marital Rape License pothole.
• Duxton through Mona go to Film M To R.
• Pulford through Joey go to Film S To Z.
• Mago goes to Literature A To F.
• Blacklist through Jack go to Live Action TVA To L.
• Rochefort and everything after go to Live Action TVM To Z.
• Beck goes to Marvel Cinematic Universe, end of the films section.

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• Video Games: A to F:
  • For Brutal Legend, please cut the last sentence.
  • For Criminal Case, for Omar Bahir, please remove the Knight of Cerebus pothole.
  • For Far Cry 3, please Wiki Word Human Trafficking; change mercenaries to Privateers, and remove the Fingore pothole.
• Video Games G To P
  • For Knack 2, please remove the Knight of Cerebus pothole.
• Video Games: Q to Z:
  • Please remove the Knight of Cerebus potholes for RosenkreuzStilette; Shadows of the Damned; and Vexx.
  • For The Witch and the Hundred Knight, please end the entry with "enjoyed her murder".

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At Resident Evil, please replace Irons's header and this first entry (the Remake one is fine) with:

• Resident Evil 2: Raccoon City Police Chief Brian Irons is monstrous in both the original game and the 2019 remake:
  • Original: Irons was accused of raping a university student several times, before getting away with it and becoming Chief of the Raccoon City Police Department. Taking bribes from the Umbrella Corporation and allowing them to conduct experiments on the city's citizens, he would use said bribes to fund his own personal "Taxidermy Sex Dungeon of Evil", filled with bones, surgical tools, acids, and stuffed bodies. When Umbrella's T-Virus breaks free and spreads throughout Raccoon City, Irons decides to use this opportunity to cause chaos and kill people, which includes zombies, innocent bystanders, fellow cops, and the mayor's daughter. Horribly depraved, Irons proves you don't need superpowers or grandiose schemes to be horrifically evil.

At the same page, a rewrite:

• Gun Survivor: Vincent Goldman is the commander of Sheena Island on the behalf of the Umbrella Corporation and responsible for creating the Hypnos T-Type Virus. He creates the virus by kidnapping children and torture them for days by extracting the hormone from their skulls while they are still alive and fully conscious. When the children try to escape the island, Goldman proceeds to kill them all and unleash The Virus on the entire island when its populace rebels.

Downing goes at the END of the last group.

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Please lock Six Six Six Satan, remove the O-Parts Hunter entry from Anime & Manga: O to Z, and add the following to Anime & Manga for examples with their own pages (the Gundam page also needs a null edit to un-red it):

• O-Parts Hunter (originally titled 666 Satan)

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Rewrite for Assassin's Creed:

• Legacy of the First Blade DLC: Pactyas the Huntsman leads the Order of Hunters to pursue Darius, killing his wife and children, with only one surviving. Tracking Darius and his remaining child in Makedonia, Pactyas would massacre numerous villages there, including ordering one's water supply poisoned, and would brainwash wolves to attack people in his efforts to lure Darius out of hiding and kill those Pactyas deems "tainted". Learning about the Eagle Bearer's whereabouts in Makedonia, Pactyas would gather all the people he mutilated and killed, displaying the corpses hanging from a tree to trick their loved ones into attacking the Eagle Bearer; should the Eagle Bearer refuse to kill said innocent villagers, Pactyas would kill them himself. Battling the Eagle Bearer, Pactyas would use psychological torment to break them before attempting to kill them.

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Edited by ACW on Jul 28th 2019 at 5:18:52 AM

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Yes, there is a sandbox at Sandbox.Pokemon Masters.

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)