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    Original post 
Note: This thread was proposed by StarSword and Diamondeye 218

Magic Ampersand came up because of the TLP draft for Tables & Toppers. The description currently is mashing together three definitions: "fictional Tabletop RPG", "fictional TTRPG using Dungeons & Dragons-style Alliterative Title", and "Bland-Name Product for D&D".

The page history, explored by Morgan Wick here, shows that the oldest version of the page originally used "fictional TTRPG using D&D-style title" as the definition, but it was muddied by subsequent edits.

2022 Magic Ampersand Wick Check results, courtesy of ~Phantom Dusclops 92:

  • 35/50 wicks for "fictional TTRPG uses D&D-style title"
  • 1/50 wick for "fictional TTRPG"
  • 7/50 Real Life games that use D&D-style titles
  • 5/50 wicks of non-TTRPG work titles named according to D&D convention as a Shout-Out
  • 1/50 misuse about ampersands in general
  • 1/50 ZCE

Wick check:

Magic Ampersand is about in-universe Tabletop Role Playing Games following the same naming pattern of Dungeons & Dragons (Two words with the same initial separated by an ampersand).

Not only the title is not very clear, but the actual on-page examples feature a few misuses, usually by listing real life games that follow the pattern. I think that making this a subtrope of Fictional Board Game and giving it a better title would fix that, but in the meantime let's do a wick check.

Total: 50/50


    Correct use (35/50) 

    No allitteration (1/50) 

    Real games using the naming convention (7/50) 
  • Bunnies & Burrows: Bunnies & Burrows.
  • Magic and Mayhem: The stylized ampersand is clearly visible despite the word and being spelled out in some instances.
  • Mazes and Minotaurs: It's often titled "Mazes & Minotaurs".
  • Mutants & Masterminds: Mutants & Masterminds along with 2E supplements Wizards & Warlocks and Mecha & Manga, with an occasionally teased supplement for teen comics to be named Hunks & Heartbreakers.
  • Then Thousand Rads: All three T&T roleplays (Started as Theology & Thaumaturgy, changed to Trolls & Trinkets during the second one) and all four Colonize & Conquers.
  • Tombs & Treasure: The English language title, Tombs & Treasure.
  • Tunnels & Trolls '''Pure descriptionless ZCE

    Things that make references to D&D that use the naming convention (5/50) 
  • D And DS 9: The name of the work, naturally. Already blanked out ZCE
  • Darths & Droids: The title of the webcomic follows this convention.
  • Mazes and Monsters: The title of the movie. Note that the movie actually features a fictional TRPG also named Mazes & Monsters, but this one example decides to ignore that and go for the ZCE route
  • My Little Planeswalker (under Shout-Out): In one chapter of Twilight's Spark, Twilight is shown to know several Dungeons & Dragons spells by name. The chapter title is even called "Legends and Libraries," and the chapter's card is an MtG version of the D&D spell legend lore.
  • Parties & Parodies: It is only natural that a roleplaying show would have an ampersand.

    Misuse (1/50) 
  • Alphabet Song: The Nursery Rhyme "A was an apple pie" dates to around 1670, and is especially notable because it demonstrates how the ampersand was considered a 27th letter of the Latin alphabet for quite a while. Also, the misspelled line "E ate it" is severely Accent Depundent, only barely excusable as a phonics lesson if you pronounce ate "et". Someone potholed this trope believing it's just about ampersands

    Just plain ZCE (1/50) 
  • Girl Meets World (under Handing Over The Crapsack): Subverted in the Secret Santa episode. Riley and her friends gift each other things all the recipients hate- a broken clock for Maya, an etiquette book for the Autistic Smackle, a Magic Ampersand game for Zay, and a Menorah for Farkle. Everyone is furious and hurt by their gifts and bitter at the friends who gave them, until Riley sits them all down again and makes them explain the meaning of each gift. As it turns out, all the gifts had a lot of thought put into them (for example, the etiquette book was heavily edited to praise all of Smackle's quirks), and everyone accepts them in the end. And the name of that game is...?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 4th 2023 at 12:07:50 PM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#1: May 26th 2023 at 12:08:10 PM

    Original post 
Note: This thread was proposed by StarSword and Diamondeye 218

Magic Ampersand came up because of the TLP draft for Tables & Toppers. The description currently is mashing together three definitions: "fictional Tabletop RPG", "fictional TTRPG using Dungeons & Dragons-style Alliterative Title", and "Bland-Name Product for D&D".

The page history, explored by Morgan Wick here, shows that the oldest version of the page originally used "fictional TTRPG using D&D-style title" as the definition, but it was muddied by subsequent edits.

2022 Magic Ampersand Wick Check results, courtesy of ~Phantom Dusclops 92:

  • 35/50 wicks for "fictional TTRPG uses D&D-style title"
  • 1/50 wick for "fictional TTRPG"
  • 7/50 Real Life games that use D&D-style titles
  • 5/50 wicks of non-TTRPG work titles named according to D&D convention as a Shout-Out
  • 1/50 misuse about ampersands in general
  • 1/50 ZCE

Wick check:

Magic Ampersand is about in-universe Tabletop Role Playing Games following the same naming pattern of Dungeons & Dragons (Two words with the same initial separated by an ampersand).

Not only the title is not very clear, but the actual on-page examples feature a few misuses, usually by listing real life games that follow the pattern. I think that making this a subtrope of Fictional Board Game and giving it a better title would fix that, but in the meantime let's do a wick check.

Total: 50/50


    Correct use (35/50) 

    No allitteration (1/50) 

    Real games using the naming convention (7/50) 
  • Bunnies & Burrows: Bunnies & Burrows.
  • Magic and Mayhem: The stylized ampersand is clearly visible despite the word and being spelled out in some instances.
  • Mazes and Minotaurs: It's often titled "Mazes & Minotaurs".
  • Mutants & Masterminds: Mutants & Masterminds along with 2E supplements Wizards & Warlocks and Mecha & Manga, with an occasionally teased supplement for teen comics to be named Hunks & Heartbreakers.
  • Then Thousand Rads: All three T&T roleplays (Started as Theology & Thaumaturgy, changed to Trolls & Trinkets during the second one) and all four Colonize & Conquers.
  • Tombs & Treasure: The English language title, Tombs & Treasure.
  • Tunnels & Trolls '''Pure descriptionless ZCE

    Things that make references to D&D that use the naming convention (5/50) 
  • D And DS 9: The name of the work, naturally. Already blanked out ZCE
  • Darths & Droids: The title of the webcomic follows this convention.
  • Mazes and Monsters: The title of the movie. Note that the movie actually features a fictional TRPG also named Mazes & Monsters, but this one example decides to ignore that and go for the ZCE route
  • My Little Planeswalker (under Shout-Out): In one chapter of Twilight's Spark, Twilight is shown to know several Dungeons & Dragons spells by name. The chapter title is even called "Legends and Libraries," and the chapter's card is an MtG version of the D&D spell legend lore.
  • Parties & Parodies: It is only natural that a roleplaying show would have an ampersand.

    Misuse (1/50) 
  • Alphabet Song: The Nursery Rhyme "A was an apple pie" dates to around 1670, and is especially notable because it demonstrates how the ampersand was considered a 27th letter of the Latin alphabet for quite a while. Also, the misspelled line "E ate it" is severely Accent Depundent, only barely excusable as a phonics lesson if you pronounce ate "et". Someone potholed this trope believing it's just about ampersands

    Just plain ZCE (1/50) 
  • Girl Meets World (under Handing Over The Crapsack): Subverted in the Secret Santa episode. Riley and her friends gift each other things all the recipients hate- a broken clock for Maya, an etiquette book for the Autistic Smackle, a Magic Ampersand game for Zay, and a Menorah for Farkle. Everyone is furious and hurt by their gifts and bitter at the friends who gave them, until Riley sits them all down again and makes them explain the meaning of each gift. As it turns out, all the gifts had a lot of thought put into them (for example, the etiquette book was heavily edited to praise all of Smackle's quirks), and everyone accepts them in the end. And the name of that game is...?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 4th 2023 at 12:07:50 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#2: May 26th 2023 at 12:08:23 PM

Paging ~StarSword and ~Diamondeye 218 to the thread.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 26th 2023 at 2:18:48 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
SamCurt Since: Jan, 2001
#3: May 26th 2023 at 12:17:06 PM

Limit the trope to the first definition, yard the rest.

Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#4: May 26th 2023 at 12:18:54 PM

The original definition (fictional Tabletop RPGs with D&D-style Alliterative Titles) is a real Stock Parody/Stock Shout-Out and subtrope of Alliterative Title and Bland-Name Product, so I think the name Ampersands And Adventurers suggested in the Trope Talk thread is good, so I'm leaning toward trimming the definition back to what it originally was and renaming (it helps that the suggested name is catchier than the unclear current name).

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 26th 2023 at 2:21:11 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Diamondeye218 QWEST! from In my Dream Realm Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
QWEST!
#5: May 26th 2023 at 12:32:14 PM

[up] I think the proposed new title demonstrates the original trope better.

Edited by Diamondeye218 on May 26th 2023 at 8:37:58 PM

This deaf, dumb and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#6: May 26th 2023 at 1:02:54 PM

[up]Yeah, that's the main reason I prefer it, though I neglected to mention that. I mentioned that it's catchier than the current name because that part's an added bonus, kind of like what happened when Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy was renamed to Too Bleak, Stopped Caring.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 26th 2023 at 3:03:09 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#7: May 26th 2023 at 2:39:50 PM

~SamCurt: Sorry, by "first definition", do you mean "fictional TTRPG" (decayed) or "fictional TTRPG that uses D&D-style title" (seeming original def)? I'm just asking for clarification because the ordering of the OP I wrote is more confusing than I thought it was.

Edited by StarSword on May 26th 2023 at 5:41:07 AM

Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#8: May 26th 2023 at 2:42:49 PM

The latter two sound could just fit Shout-Out and Bland-Name Product. We can tighten it up. Not sure if we have to limit it to T&T, there are other episodes similar to RPG Episode to follow a tabletop rpg.

If renamed, the old name can probably be disambiguated between mentioned.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
SamCurt Since: Jan, 2001
#9: May 26th 2023 at 3:12:30 PM

[up][up]

I referred to the "fictional TTRPG that uses D&D-style title" definition.

Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#10: May 26th 2023 at 3:31:53 PM

I think a fictional Tabletop RPG would already fall under Show Within a Show regardless of what it's called or whether it's a reference to a real one; I think the naming scheme this trope's original definition was based on is distinct enough to be separate from that trope.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 26th 2023 at 5:35:07 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Diamondeye218 QWEST! from In my Dream Realm Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#12: May 28th 2023 at 11:06:35 PM

I hooked a crowner with the options that were given (undoing the Trope Decay and renaming the trope). I left off Yarding because that's a free action that doesn't require TRS.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Diamondeye218 QWEST! from In my Dream Realm Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#14: May 29th 2023 at 4:58:40 AM

As far as naming is concerned, Ampersands And Adventurers sounds great. [tup]

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#15: May 29th 2023 at 5:30:13 AM

Regarding how Tables And Toppers was the name given by the original draft, I don't know how that became Magic Ampersand, but I personally think it's better than Magic Ampersand, but not as good as Ampersands And Adventurers.

Edit: I originally put Adventurers And Ampersands when the original suggestion had the inverse, but I suppose it could be an alternative to the original suggestion.

Edit: I accidentally worded this in an unclear way because I was tired. I meant I didn't know why the name of the final page isn't the same as the name of the draft, and was saying I think the name Tables And Toppers is better than the name Magic Ampersand, but accidentally worded it in a way that sounded like I was saying we could replace the current page's text with the text of the draft. I was always in favor of sandboxing a rewritten description, not reusing the draft's text.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 29th 2023 at 9:16:50 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#16: May 29th 2023 at 5:33:29 AM

Not a fan of having either "Ampersand And" or "And Ampersand". Shortened it'd feel like &&.

Edited by Amonimus on May 29th 2023 at 3:48:43 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#17: May 29th 2023 at 5:35:19 AM

We'd only custom title the word "And" to be replaced by an ampersand character; the word "Ampersands" would be spelled out. Perhaps Adventurers And Alliteration or Alliteration & Adventurers could be an alternative, though.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 29th 2023 at 7:36:03 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#18: May 29th 2023 at 6:57:29 AM

[up] Yeah, those are great, too.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#19: May 29th 2023 at 9:32:18 AM

Adventurers & Alliteration is brilliant, that gets my vote.

As far as the current Tables & Toppers draft, I still don't think it's doing anything that the currently winning Magic Ampersand definition isn't. Just add a May Overlap With Bland-Name Product to the compare/contrasts and we're covered.

Edited by StarSword on May 29th 2023 at 12:35:15 PM

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#21: May 29th 2023 at 7:09:45 PM

[up][up]Oh, I didn't mean we'd replace the trope's page with the Tables And Toppers draft. I just meant that reusing the name would be on the table. Admittedly, I could have been more clear that I meant I didn't know why the name was changed to Magic Ampersand when it was launched, but I accidentally used Ambiguous Syntax in that post (I was tired at the time). (Either way, Tables And Toppers isn't my preferred name; I still prefer the other suggestions.)

Edit: Edited that post to clarify that I was referring to just the name and not the entire draft/page.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 29th 2023 at 9:19:25 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#22: May 31st 2023 at 7:11:44 PM

EDIT: Nevermind, weird timestamp stuff

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on May 31st 2023 at 10:12:29 AM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#23: May 31st 2023 at 10:03:55 PM

Calling in favor of changing the definition back to the original definition of fictional Tabletop RPGs using Dungeons & Dragons-style Alliterative Titles and renaming.

I'll get a crowner ready for the rename since we have some suggestions (and a couple of them have already had positive feedback). Get a sandbox ready for the description rewrite in the meantime (if it's necessary for the rewrite).

Edit: Hooked.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 31st 2023 at 12:06:25 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#24: May 31st 2023 at 10:28:38 PM

I'm downvoting anything with the word "Ampersand" in it because using an actual ampersand is more compact and makes it redundant.

Edited by badtothebaritone on May 31st 2023 at 12:29:00 PM

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#25: Jun 1st 2023 at 9:23:36 AM

I have created Sandbox.Magic Ampersand to handle the description rewrite.

Trope Repair Shop: Magic Ampersand
31st May '23 10:04:29 PM

Crown Description:

Consensus was to change the definition of Magic Ampersand back to the original definition of fictional Tabletop RPGs using Dungeons And Dragons-style Alliterative Titles and rename the trope. What should the trope's new name be?

Total posts: 31
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