- Remove examples that don't fit the rewritten definition (fictional Tabletop RPGs with Dungeons & Dragons-style Alliterative Titles and move valid examples to Alliteration & Adventurers.
- Clean up wicks.
Magic Ampersand came up because of the TLP draft for Tables & Toppers. The description currently is mashing together three definitions: "fictional Tabletop RPG", "fictional TTRPG using Dungeons & Dragons-style Alliterative Title", and "Bland-Name Product for D&D".
The page history, explored by Morgan Wick here, shows that the oldest version of the page originally used "fictional TTRPG using D&D-style title" as the definition, but it was muddied by subsequent edits.
2022 Magic Ampersand Wick Check results, courtesy of ~Phantom Dusclops 92:
Wick check:
Magic Ampersand is about in-universe Tabletop Role Playing Games following the same naming pattern of Dungeons & Dragons (Two words with the same initial separated by an ampersand).Not only the title is not very clear, but the actual on-page examples feature a few misuses, usually by listing real life games that follow the pattern. I think that making this a subtrope of Fictional Board Game and giving it a better title would fix that, but in the meantime let's do a wick check.
Total: 50/50
- Adventures in Odyssey: The fictional roleplaying game Castles & Cauldrons, subject of a notorious Very Special Episode with a Satanic Panic theme. Let's just say, having an "and" in its title is about the closest the game comes to reflecting any real-life RPG. The example is complaining but otherwise correct
- Boldores And Boomsticks: Mr. Stone jokes that if he left his scientists unsupercised, they might end up playing Druddigons and Dragonites.
- Borderlands2.Tropes D To N: The "Tiny Tina's Assault on Dragon Keep" DLC has the vault hunters sitting down at a table and playing a game of "Bunkers & Badasses".
- Borderlands2.Tropes O To Z: Four instances of this trope potholed to mentons of Bunkers & Badasses, found under Pintsized Powerhouse, Shout-Out, Stealth Pun and We Have Reserves
- Characters.Bully Nerds: Many of them play the very popular game of Grottoes & Gremlins.
- d20 Pony: Temples and Titans, a pony equivalent of Dungeons and Dragons.
- dC/dt≠0 (under Munchkin): According to Spike, Morpheus is this when playing Ogres and Oubliettes, Min-Maxing diplomacy to redeem the villains.
- Diary of a Wimpy Kid: Rodrick Rules: Greg plays a game called Magick & Monsters.
- Dungeon Damage: A group of Dragons play "Humans and Houses".
- Dresden Codak: A few strips have the characters playing Dungeons & Discourse which combines fantasy role-playing with Philosophy.
- Firewatch (under Shout-Out): Wizards & Wyverns is obviously an in-universe version of Dungeons & Dragons.
- Gravity Falls S2 E13 "Dungeons, Dungeons, & More Dungeons": Parodied by Dungeons, Dungeons, and More Dungeons, a game first seen in "A Tale of Two Stans".
- Lies, Damn Lies, And Statistics: While her husband's geekery is well known, it turns out that Cadance can be his match, when she talks about her foalhood ambitions to be a marine biologist, a Wonderbolt, circumnavigate the globe, and write O&O modules, due to being annoyed at the poor female representation.
- Majyk by Accident: The game "Palaces & Puppies" is mentioned in Majyk By Hook or Crook.
- My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (IDW) Issue 89 to 92 (under Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies): There's a flashback where Zecora tried to play Ogres & Oubliettes with her friends, but they wouldn't stop arguing, so she ended the game by saying that their characters all died in the desert.
- My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 6 E 18 Dungeons And Discords: The title of the episode as well as the game Ogres & Oubliettes both use it, just to make the D&D reference more obvious.
- The Onion Movie: One sketch features the game "Wizards & Warbeasts".
- Riverdale: A major plotline in Season Three revolves around some old RPG called Gryphons & Gargoyles, whose cover is definitely meant to call back to the old White Box set of Dungeons & Dragons released back in 1974. The storyline itself reads like an Afterschool Special straight from the height of the Satanic Panic, with occultism and ritualistic suicides galore.
- Robin (1993): Tim plays a tabletop RPG called Wizards & Warriors with his Gotham Heights pals.
- Roommates: Memoirs of the Hairless Ape: The local roleplaying game of choice is Sapients & Strongholds. The obvious reference to Dungeons & Dragons is heightened by subtle comments made on the game, such as it currently being in its 5th edition and that 3rd edition was full of loopholes that munchkins loved to exploit.
- Scooby Doo Mystery Inc S 2 E 4 Web Of The Dreamweaver: Crypts & Creatures.
- Simon the Sorcerer: In the second game, Simon encounters a group of nerds playing Apartments And Accountants.
- Sponge Bob Square Pants S 3 E 15 The Great Snail Race Mid Life Crustacean: SpongeBob, Patrick and Mr. Krabs play a Dungeons & Dragons-like game called "P&P".
- Starship Promise: In Atlas' third season, the Promise crew plays a roleplaying game called "Constellations and Crusaders".
- Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2012 S 2 E 15 Mazes And Mutants: Potholed in a mention of the titular game in the plot description on top
- Terra Primate: Simians and Sorcerers is a nod to Dungeons & Dragons.
- Voltron: Legendary Defender S6E3: "Monsters & Mana", an obvious D&D clone.
- Wicked Willow (under Trapped in TV Land): Or rather, trapped by a wish in Avery's Dryads & Demons game.
- ShoutOut.Borderlands 2: Owing to the fantasy setting of the "Bunkers & Badasses" game, all the dialogue for the vending machines is changed. Thus:
- Characters.Borderlands 1 Vault Hunters (1): All the Other Reindeer: Apparently when she was a kid, all the boys made fun of her because of her tattoos, and because she played Bunkers & Badasses.
- Characters.Borderlands 1 Vault Hunters (2): Ascended Fangirl: Lilith's powers as a Siren make her the Borderlands equivalent of a sorcerer, and she grew up being teased for two things: her Siren tattoos, and her passion for Bunkers & Badasses. She has some issues with bandwagon geeks because of it. She's also read the universe's equivalent to A Song of Ice and Fire.
- Characters.Borderlands 1 Vault Hunters (3): Gamer Girl: She's a big fan of Tabletop RPGs and much more knowledgeable about them than Brick or Mordecai. Mister Torgue's requesting to join in on their Bunkers & Badasses has her mention being mocked for playing the game when she was younger.
- Characters.Borderlands 1 Vault Hunters (4): Hipster: Minor example, but she starts out refusing to let Mister Torgue play Bunkers & Badasses out of fear he's only interested in it because being geeky is now "trendy".
- Characters.Borderlands 1 Vault Hunters (5): No True Scotsman: Lilith is resistant to letting Mister Torgue play Bunkers & Badasses, requiring Tiny Tina to make a quest where the players find questions around the world for Mister Torgue to answer to prove his geek cred.
- Characters.Borderlands 1 Vault Hunters (6): He calls dibs on the Siren when playing Bunkers & Badasses. Her name is Brick and she is the prettiest. He also imagines himself as Maya when escaping capture in the + 5 to Punching short.
- One Hundred And One Dalmatian Street S 1 E 39 Poodlefall (under RPG Episode): This time, the "Poodlewolf" franchise is used as a Dungeons And Dragons styled game.
- Bunnies & Burrows: Bunnies & Burrows.
- Magic and Mayhem: The stylized ampersand is clearly visible despite the word and being spelled out in some instances.
- Mazes and Minotaurs: It's often titled "Mazes & Minotaurs".
- Mutants & Masterminds: Mutants & Masterminds along with 2E supplements Wizards & Warlocks and Mecha & Manga, with an occasionally teased supplement for teen comics to be named Hunks & Heartbreakers.
- Then Thousand Rads: All three T&T roleplays (Started as Theology & Thaumaturgy, changed to Trolls & Trinkets during the second one) and all four Colonize & Conquers.
- Tombs & Treasure: The English language title, Tombs & Treasure.
- Tunnels & Trolls '''Pure descriptionless ZCE
- D And DS 9: The name of the work, naturally. Already blanked out ZCE
- Darths & Droids: The title of the webcomic follows this convention.
- Mazes and Monsters: The title of the movie. Note that the movie actually features a fictional TRPG also named Mazes & Monsters, but this one example decides to ignore that and go for the ZCE route
- My Little Planeswalker (under Shout-Out): In one chapter of Twilight's Spark, Twilight is shown to know several Dungeons & Dragons spells by name. The chapter title is even called "Legends and Libraries," and the chapter's card is an MtG version of the D&D spell legend lore.
- Parties & Parodies: It is only natural that a roleplaying show would have an ampersand.
- Alphabet Song: The Nursery Rhyme "A was an apple pie" dates to around 1670, and is especially notable because it demonstrates how the ampersand was considered a 27th letter of the Latin alphabet for quite a while. Also, the misspelled line "E ate it" is severely Accent Depundent, only barely excusable as a phonics lesson if you pronounce ate "et". Someone potholed this trope believing it's just about ampersands
- Girl Meets World (under Handing Over The Crapsack): Subverted in the Secret Santa episode. Riley and her friends gift each other things all the recipients hate- a broken clock for Maya, an etiquette book for the Autistic Smackle, a Magic Ampersand game for Zay, and a Menorah for Farkle. Everyone is furious and hurt by their gifts and bitter at the friends who gave them, until Riley sits them all down again and makes them explain the meaning of each gift. As it turns out, all the gifts had a lot of thought put into them (for example, the etiquette book was heavily edited to praise all of Smackle's quirks), and everyone accepts them in the end. And the name of that game is...?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 4th 2023 at 12:07:50 PM
Paging ~StarSword and ~Diamondeye 218 to the thread.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 26th 2023 at 2:18:48 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Limit the trope to the first definition, yard the rest.
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra NovaThe original definition (fictional Tabletop RPGs with D&D-style Alliterative Titles) is a real Stock Parody/Stock Shout-Out and subtrope of Alliterative Title and Bland-Name Product, so I think the name Ampersands And Adventurers suggested in the Trope Talk thread is good, so I'm leaning toward trimming the definition back to what it originally was and renaming (it helps that the suggested name is catchier than the unclear current name).
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 26th 2023 at 2:21:11 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I think the proposed new title demonstrates the original trope better.
Edited by Diamondeye218 on May 26th 2023 at 8:37:58 PM
This deaf, dumb and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball.Yeah, that's the main reason I prefer it, though I neglected to mention that. I mentioned that it's catchier than the current name because that part's an added bonus, kind of like what happened when Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy was renamed to Too Bleak, Stopped Caring.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 26th 2023 at 3:03:09 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.~SamCurt: Sorry, by "first definition", do you mean "fictional TTRPG" (decayed) or "fictional TTRPG that uses D&D-style title" (seeming original def)? I'm just asking for clarification because the ordering of the OP I wrote is more confusing than I thought it was.
Edited by StarSword on May 26th 2023 at 5:41:07 AM
The latter two sound could just fit Shout-Out and Bland-Name Product. We can tighten it up. Not sure if we have to limit it to T&T, there are other episodes similar to RPG Episode to follow a tabletop rpg.
If renamed, the old name can probably be disambiguated between mentioned.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
I referred to the "fictional TTRPG that uses D&D-style title" definition.
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra NovaI think a fictional Tabletop RPG would already fall under Show Within a Show regardless of what it's called or whether it's a reference to a real one; I think the naming scheme this trope's original definition was based on is distinct enough to be separate from that trope.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 26th 2023 at 5:35:07 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.So, any more options?
This deaf, dumb and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball.I hooked a crowner with the options that were given (undoing the Trope Decay and renaming the trope). I left off Yarding because that's a free action that doesn't require TRS.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.And also we have the Tables & Toppers TLP draft.
This deaf, dumb and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball.As far as naming is concerned, Ampersands And Adventurers sounds great.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportRegarding how Tables And Toppers was the name given by the original draft, I don't know how that became Magic Ampersand, but I personally think it's better than Magic Ampersand, but not as good as Ampersands And Adventurers.
Edit: I originally put Adventurers And Ampersands when the original suggestion had the inverse, but I suppose it could be an alternative to the original suggestion.
Edit: I accidentally worded this in an unclear way because I was tired. I meant I didn't know why the name of the final page isn't the same as the name of the draft, and was saying I think the name Tables And Toppers is better than the name Magic Ampersand, but accidentally worded it in a way that sounded like I was saying we could replace the current page's text with the text of the draft. I was always in favor of sandboxing a rewritten description, not reusing the draft's text.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 29th 2023 at 9:16:50 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Not a fan of having either "Ampersand And" or "And Ampersand". Shortened it'd feel like &&.
Edited by Amonimus on May 29th 2023 at 3:48:43 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupWe'd only custom title the word "And" to be replaced by an ampersand character; the word "Ampersands" would be spelled out. Perhaps Adventurers And Alliteration or Alliteration & Adventurers could be an alternative, though.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 29th 2023 at 7:36:03 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Yeah, those are great, too.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportAdventurers & Alliteration is brilliant, that gets my vote.
As far as the current Tables & Toppers draft, I still don't think it's doing anything that the currently winning Magic Ampersand definition isn't. Just add a May Overlap With Bland-Name Product to the compare/contrasts and we're covered.
Edited by StarSword on May 29th 2023 at 12:35:15 PM
Oh, I didn't mean we'd replace the trope's page with the Tables And Toppers draft. I just meant that reusing the name would be on the table. Admittedly, I could have been more clear that I meant I didn't know why the name was changed to Magic Ampersand when it was launched, but I accidentally used Ambiguous Syntax in that post (I was tired at the time). (Either way, Tables And Toppers isn't my preferred name; I still prefer the other suggestions.)
Edit: Edited that post to clarify that I was referring to just the name and not the entire draft/page.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 29th 2023 at 9:19:25 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.EDIT: Nevermind, weird timestamp stuff
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on May 31st 2023 at 10:12:29 AM
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallCalling in favor of changing the definition back to the original definition of fictional Tabletop RPGs using Dungeons & Dragons-style Alliterative Titles and renaming.
I'll get a crowner ready for the rename since we have some suggestions (and a couple of them have already had positive feedback). Get a sandbox ready for the description rewrite in the meantime (if it's necessary for the rewrite).
Edit: Hooked.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 31st 2023 at 12:06:25 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I'm downvoting anything with the word "Ampersand" in it because using an actual ampersand is more compact and makes it redundant.
Edited by badtothebaritone on May 31st 2023 at 12:29:00 PM
I have created Sandbox.Magic Ampersand to handle the description rewrite.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to change the definition of Magic Ampersand back to the original definition of fictional Tabletop RPGs using Dungeons And Dragons-style Alliterative Titles and rename the trope. What should the trope's new name be?
Magic Ampersand came up because of the TLP draft for Tables & Toppers. The description currently is mashing together three definitions: "fictional Tabletop RPG", "fictional TTRPG using Dungeons & Dragons-style Alliterative Title", and "Bland-Name Product for D&D".
The page history, explored by Morgan Wick here, shows that the oldest version of the page originally used "fictional TTRPG using D&D-style title" as the definition, but it was muddied by subsequent edits.
2022 Magic Ampersand Wick Check results, courtesy of ~Phantom Dusclops 92:
Wick check:
Magic Ampersand is about in-universe Tabletop Role Playing Games following the same naming pattern of Dungeons & Dragons (Two words with the same initial separated by an ampersand).Not only the title is not very clear, but the actual on-page examples feature a few misuses, usually by listing real life games that follow the pattern. I think that making this a subtrope of Fictional Board Game and giving it a better title would fix that, but in the meantime let's do a wick check.
Total: 50/50
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 4th 2023 at 12:07:50 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.