To-do list:
- Move all wicks for Vengeful Widow to Crusading Widow, and move wicks for Crusading Widower that aren't on Character pages to the new name; gendered redirects are allowed on Character pages but not other pages, so Crusading Widower wicks on Character pages probably will not need to be changed while others will.
This is said to be the distaff counterpart to Crusading Widower but there doesn't seem to be a narrative reason for the separation by gender as it doesn't really change how the trope is played. It even has a redirect from the "nigh-indistinguishable from Crusading Widower" trope, Crusading Widow.
There was a previous thread on this exact issue and the reason this trope was kept was because of the following justification:
Okay so as I see it there are a couple tropes here:
- Trope 1: (Crusading Widower / Crusading Widow) Widow(er) goes on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge against those who killed their spouse.
- Trope 2: (Vengeful Widow?) Widow(er) is driven Axe-Crazy, more or less indiscriminately, to release the pain from the loss of their spouse.
The problem with the above rationalization is that those aren't how either trope is defined. Based on their pages the tropes are:
- Vengeful Widow: A villainess or anti-heroine seeks revenge for her spouse's death (often at the hero's hand).
- Crusading Widower: A vengeful character (typically an Anti-Hero) is motivated by the death of their spouse. — The page even includes the following paragraph, which makes these two tropes even less distinguishable from one another:
For obvious reasons, this character is usually on the low end of the Idealism/Cynicism scale, tending towards Anti-Hero, Anti-Villain, or villain. Very, very rarely will the Crusading Widower be The Hero. Also, while this trope can happen to women, it happens much more often to men.
The Vengeful Widow Wick Check backs up the idea that these tropes are virtually the same. 35 wicks (70%) are explicitly about getting revenge directly on the person who murdered their spouse or their loved one's death motivating them in some other way. Only 1 example fits under the indiscriminate violence interpretation. And only 5 examples (10%) explicitly label the character as villainous or an anti-villain. Of the remaining 15 wicks, 11 (22% of all wicks checked) are some form of ZCE and 4 (8%) are misuse (with 3/4 examples in there being wrongly categorized Crusading Widower examples)
Recommendation: Merge into Crusading Widower (and modify Crusading Widower's description to include female examples)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 24th 2022 at 10:37:28 AM
Has something like that ever happened?
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupThere's always someone who has to have the idea first. I can accept "____ Widow(er)".
This is how I was planning to do the crowner:
- Merge Vengeful Widow and Crusading Widower under the name Vengeful Widow
- Merge Vengeful Widow and Crusading Widower under the name Crusading Widower
- Merge Vengeful Widow and Crusading Widower under the name Crusading Widow
- Merge Vengeful Widow and Crusading Widower under the name Vengeful Widower
- Merge Vengeful Widow and Crusading Widower under a new name (would be decided with a second crowner)
We could mention in the crowner's header that if a name ending with "Widower" is chosen, we could customize it to "Widow(er)".
Edit: Huh, Vengeful Widower isn't already a redirect to Crusading Widower. Well, no time like the present to fix that.
Edit: And now it's a blue link.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 19th 2022 at 5:16:58 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I hooked the crowner I drafted in the above post.
Edit: I also tagged Crusading Widower's page.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 21st 2022 at 3:56:35 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Calling crowner in favor of:
- Merge Vengeful Widow and Crusading Widower under the name Crusading Widow. This would mean moving 169 wicks from Vengeful Widow, but most Crusading Widower wicks would probably be able to stay because the use of gendered redirects is acceptable.
To clarify on the gendered redirect part; Crusading Widower wicks on character page example listings are fine but Crusading Widower wicks on trope listings for work pages need to be changed to Crusading Widow. Gendered redirects are limited to character page example listing per this wiki talk thread.
Macron's notesI'm going to get in the habit of posting my default edit reason so when I take breaks and come back, I don't need to keep retyping it
Vengeful Widow and Crusading Widower merged into Crusading Widow per TRS
Edited by amathieu13 on Oct 25th 2022 at 12:31:48 PM
I posted notes on the old discussion pages since we're using a name other than one of the two currently in use. We might need to sandbox a new description to account for the revised gender-neutral definition, plus on-page examples will need to be merged into a single page.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 24th 2022 at 9:08:06 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Double posting because I made Sandbox.Crusading Widow for the new gender-neutral definition. We could probably transplant on-page examples there as well before moving it into place, but I can't think of anything to add to the description because Vengeful Widow had a short description and Crusading Widower had a lot of Example as a Thesis stuff that I felt was safe to cut in favor of what was on Vengeful Widow.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 24th 2022 at 9:18:22 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.OK, so the merged Crusading Widow page is now live.
I'm going to link to the merged page's Related page since we have more than one redirect to move wicks from.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Came across Determined Widow, which is a trope from 2008 that sounds oddly similar to this Vengeful Widow.
From the description it reads like "a female widowed love interest (Romancing the Widow)? + Vengeful Widow".
Would we be able to deal with that trope in this thread if a wick check was done?
Since this thread is starred and all we have to do is wick clean, I'd prefer if Determined Widow gets its own thread but that's just my opinion.
Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 26th 2022 at 3:04:26 PM
Macron's notesI started the wick check and the issue with Determined Widow is bigger than just the overlap with Vengeful Widow so I'll take it in on its own.
In any case, apart from Sandboxes Vengeful Widow redirect is cleared out. Just have to do Crusading Widower's non-character wicks
Same here.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Archiving Vengeful Widow's wick check so I can cut its sandbox:
Wick Check to see if this is used the same as Crusading Widower but for women (TM)
- Crusading Widower: A vengeful character is motivated by the death of their spouse.
- Vengeful Widow: A villainess or anti-heroine seeks revenge for her spouse's death (often at the hero's hand).
Wicks - 50
- Can be covered by Crusading Widower - 35 (70%)
- (Explicitly a villain or anti-hero - 5)
- Misuse - 4 (8%)
- Should be on Crusading Widower because it's about a man - 3
- Other - 1
- ZCE and PCE - 11 (22%)
- Rebel Galaxy Outlaw: Juno's husband was murdered. Now, she's looking to do some killing of her own. (She's searching for her husband's killer specifically)
- Cocaine Coast: Braulio's wife, Maruxa, does everything she can to get her husband's killers to justice.
- The Bride Wore Black: Julie's husband was shot on the day of her marriage. She seeks revenge and she kills one by one the five men who were involved in this murder.
- Freedom Fighters (2018): Doll Girl used to be a pacifist like her husband, the modern Doll Man. After his death at the hands of the Nazis, she swore off pacifism and dedicated her life to killing Nazis.
- The Dragonslayers: Grizelda thinks she's this, seeking revenge on the king for the loss of her husband, who'd been drafted into his armies and never returned, and son, thinking King Mildred had burned her cottage with the child inside. In fact, both are alive and well - Brian was rescued from the burning house (which had been set on fire by enemy soldiers) by King Mildred and his men, but Grizelda didn't know this and abandoned the destroyed house in favor of finding a witch to teach her what she needed. Later, Elizar (whom Grizelda assumed had died in the war) returned to find his home destroyed. Thinking his wife and son were dead, he went wandering and eventually found employment at King Mildred's castle. Eventually, all three are reunited at the end of the book after Grizelda, having recognized Brian as her son, reveals their relationship and how she recognized him... and Elizar is shocked because his son had the same birthmark as hers.
- Criminal Case: World Edition - Case 08: Death in the Desert: Izzah Farid, the wife of one of the workers that perished in the Sand Oil accident, has been helping The Sword by distributing weapons in their name to rebels over the Sahara, intending to start a revolution against foreigners since her husband was killed due to them.
- Xabiarverse Ethereal Collective: The Synthesized killed the Battlemasters of the Imperial Sanctum, of which one was her mate. Her motivation to join the Collective stems from the opportunity to avenge him through the death of all Synthesized.
- Warrior Cats ThunderClan Warriors and Apprentices: She reacts to Stemleaf's death with pure rage and vows to make sure the impostor pays with his life.
- Thou Shalt Not Die: She wants to get to the bottom of the Shirotae Project because she knows this conspiracy is responsible for killing her husband for investigating them.
- The Lunar Rebellion: After Radiant Day's death, she becomes this to his killer Dusk Charger. Deconstructed later on that, when Dusk Charger's Fake Defection is revealed, it blinds her to the larger battle going on while being too angry to think of her unborn foal and surrender when she is clearly outnumbered and outmatched and her opponent is more focused on getting her to stop fighting with no intent to harm her. Sure enough, when she is about to kill Dusk Charger, his brother Flash has to save him by impaling her chest from behind, killing her.
- TearRing Saga: She despises Vega for murdering her boyfriend seven years ago. However, she is aware that she will never surpass him in combat so she pleads with, and seduces, Shigen to take her place. She eventually gives up her vengeance when she realizes that her boyfriend would never accept it and begs Holmes to break their duel to the death.
- Mesopotamian Mythology - Tiamat: Was very determined to avenge Abzu's (her lover) death.
- Deadly Class - Amante: She brutally tortures Maria in retribution for Maria's actions against her husband and son.
- Crash Canyon: Mrs. McGurk is pissed off at that bear for eating her husband and has dedicated the remainder of her days to making him suffer every single minute for it.
- Battletech Inner Sphere: Following the death of Justin Xiang, her response was to make her way into the Capellan palace and kill her sister and her sister's lover in revenge.
- The Nightingale (2019): She's out to kill the men who murdered her entire family and gang-raped her. — from Crusading Widow redirect
- Another Eden Antagonists: Betrayed King Palsifal by killing his entire family because her husband was caught in one of the king's wars and killed. — from Crusading Widow redirect
- Ace Attorney: Witnesses and Other Characters - Spirit of Justice - Beh'leeb: After Tahrust's trial, she takes on a more proactive role in the revolution. — from Crusading Widow redirect
- A Song of Ice and Fire - House Stark - Catelyn Stark: It begins with Ned's death and it only goes downhill from there. Thinking all her children but Sansa have died, she has made it her purpose to destroy everything associated with the Freys and Lannisters. — from Crusading Widow redirect
- A Game of Vengeance and Justice - Catelyn Stark: Is determined to avenge her husband's death. She succeeds.— from Crusading Widow redirect
- The Space Bar - Cilia: Seeking to avenge the death of one of her mates at the hands of the Akro Mati. — from Crusading Widow redirect
- Firefly – Browncoats - Maude: Her husband was killed during the buyout dispute and she’s determined to get back at the alliance any way she can.
- Baldur's Gate: Main Party Members - Jaheira: A more heroic example in BGII. Even though she expresses concern for Imoen's plight, one of her main motivations for seeking out Irenicus is to make him pay for Khalid's death.
- Love, Death & Robots: "Suits" - Helen: After Jake dies she whips out a shotgun and starts shooting DBs herself.
- Hunter: The Reckoning - Avengers: (Crusading Widower or Vengeful Widow) A very common archetype for Avengers — the only people more likely to become Avengers are people who've lost a parent or a child.
- Psycho-Pass: Sinners of the System - Rin: Rin's responsible for using the combat drone on the Japanese MOD building and the MOFA Kyushu Immigration Center to target certain VIPs.
- Red Dead Redemption 2 Van Der Linde Gan - Expy: Sadie is one of Film.Hannie Caulder, right down to their origin story, having lost their husband and becoming a Vengeful Widow to hunt down her husband's killers.
- Wonder Woman: Villains: (Pre-Crisis) The Nazis killed her husband Gottfriend before kidnapping her daughter Gerta and holding the young girl hostage to ensure Paula's cooperation. Once Gerta was safe Paula dedicated the rest of her life to helping the Nazis' enemies and developing much more fantastic new inventions with her knowledge of science than she'd ever done for the Nazis.
- Wildflower (2017) - Lily: In the penultimate episode, Diego's death is the final straw for Lily, and she decides to confront Julio and Emilia for the last time.
- The Following: Mallory joined the first random killing spree to avenge Lance, her boyfriend.
Explicitly a Villain or Anti-Hero
- Final Fantasy XII: One of the defining motivations Ashe has is the death of her husband and father and is haunted by the ghost of her husband at multiple points during the game. This drives her to vengeful extremes, dehumanizing the Empire and resistent to a peaceful resolution for her people.
- 24: Live Another Day: Margot Al-Harazi seeks revenge on President James Heller for ordering the drone strike that killed her terrorist husband.
- Evernight - Mrs Bethany: She's revealed to be this in the last book. She became a vampire solely because it was the only way for her to avenge the betrayal and murder of her beloved husband
- Agents of Mayhem: Red AISHA wanted to take out M.A.Y.H.E.M. after they kill her groom on their wedding barge. She starts with the smear campaign portraying him as an innocent victim of M.A.Y.H.E.M. and then the AISHAs put out a musical single that's literally killing its listeners. Things escalate until Red AISHA finally has her Villainous Breakdown. In the end, Purple AISHA is the group's only survivor. (Blue AISHA was deleted by Red AISHA, Yellow and Green AISHAs were shoved into robot bodies that got destroyed by M.A.Y.H.E.M. when they were forced to fight or die, and Red AISHA is destroyed when her giant robot prototype is destroyed).
- Kitsune No Ken Fist Of The Fox Akatsuki - Konan: Her husband's death, and the miscarriage she suffered from the stress of that event, led to her joining Akatsuki to get revenge
Should be on Crusading Widower as it's about a male character
- Assault on Wall Street: Jim, specifically because his wife committed suicide from financial problems that were caused by corrupt Wall Street hedge fund managers, bankers, brokers and lawyers. He shows Stancroft a photo of his late wife telling them that it's his fault she's dead.
- Parasite (2019) - Geun-se: Stabs Ki-jeong and unsuccessfully tries to also stab Chung-sook with a kitchen knife as revenge for Moon-gwang's death
- Desperate Housewives - Other Characters - Dave: He seeks to avenge the death of his wife and daughter.
Other
- What We Do In The Shadows 2019 Humans: Vengeful Roommate. Shanice was Jenna's roommate and one of her only friends. When Jenna suddenly disappeared, Shanice assumed that the vampires were responsible, and thus has vowed to avenge Jenna by killing them, not realizing that Jenna was turned willingly. — wasn't her lover or spouse
Partial
- Into the Woods: Is (reasonably) furious with Jack for mugging then murdering her husband. — doesn't say what she does in retaliation
- Mass Effect Andromeda Multiplayer Characters: The female Infiltrator, who lost her husband and child in a botched robbery. — from Crusading Widow redirect — doesn't say what she does or who she targets
- Game of Thrones - House Martell - Ellaria Sand: Seeking revenge for Oberyn's death in Season 5. from Crusading Widow redirect — doesn't say what she does or who she targets
- Magnificent Century Imperial Family - Hatice: After Ibrahim's execution, she becomes even more hostile against Hürrem. — doesn't say what she does or who she targets
ZCE
- Tales From The Crypt S 5 E 3 Forever Ambergris: Bobbi
- Nibelungenlied: Kriemhild may be the ultimate example. (She's trying to avenge her husband by punishing his murderers)
- The Dark Knight Trilogy: Gotham City Administration: When Joker transforms him into Two Face.
- Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice: Senua is this, of the "bring their lover back" variety. — from Crusading Widow redirect
- Deadpool: Supporting Characters - Shiklah: Becomes this in Mrs. Deadpool and the Howling Commandos because I was dead temporarily. — from Crusading Widow redirect
- Yakuza - Yayoi: Enough to challenge the Dragon of Dojima directly and armed with a sword.
- Tekken - Anna: Why she's after Nina in Tekken 7.
Main/ is dewicked, and since the only Administrivia/ wick is a maintenance page and we're not touching the Characters/ namespace due to the policy on gendered redirects for those pages, it looks like ComicBook/ is up next when going by alphabetical order.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 27th 2022 at 6:15:38 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.We can skip Sandbox/ as well. Those are either a) sandboxes of character sheets, or b) administrative stuff.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportDewicking is done since we're skipping Characters/ pages, so time for this thread to join its spouse.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
Concerns have been raised that Vengeful Widow and Crusading Widower are redundant with each other due to the separation being based on the character's gender (female and male, respectively) and little (if anything) else. What should be done with them?
Hey, custom titling to Widow(er) is an idea. Or too clunky-looking?