Character pronoun and identity discussion

i dont know if the wiki has an official policy (yet)

however, thus far for work and character pages, if a character comes out as trans, we have had all pages that mention that character use the proper pronouns and name, even if said character came out in a sequel or near the end of the story or whatever

which, is what you should do for trans people in real life, even if talking about them before they came out

there's only one exception to that rule for Wandering Son given the nature of the story

Edited by EpicBleye on Jun 23rd 2023 at 9:34:44 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Where the transition is treated as a spoiler or twist, I think this gets trickier, in a way that doesn't reflect in real life.

Using the gender and pronouns the work itself uses in that instalment doesn't feel wrong to me. A Recap page, or a Film page for a film with sequels, shouldn't normally reflect anything after the end of that particular instalment/work.

Where Characters pages cover the character's life as a whole, I'm all for using the latest/correct pronouns.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 23rd 2023 at 2:42:34 PM

it's actively deadnaming and misgendering a character. it should feel wrong.

you wouldn't use the Wachowski's deadnames and misgender them when talking about The Matrix just because they're credited in the movie as "The Wachowski Brothers" and under their deadnames.

i understand that fiction is different than reality, but that doesn't mean it plays by a completely different set of rules

Edited by EpicBleye on Jun 23rd 2023 at 10:04:16 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

No, I wouldn't do that for a real performer or anyone working behind the scenes. Or any other real person.

But when a fictional character's transition is part of the narrative, it gets trickier. Because the work has deliberately chosen to use specific pronouns for the character at that point in their life, as part of its narrative. And, as This Very Wiki keeps reminding me, we are here to talk about the work.

If that instalment is consumed in isolation and you never reach film #3 or season #9 or whenever (which may have been created years later by a different creative team), that is the only version of the character you will ever encounter.

There will be exceptions - I'd argue that Real Life Writes the Plot cases where a character transitions along with their actor should be handled differently, for example.

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Edit: Looking at the pinned post, this is also covering old ground. We have examples of these situations, which may set precedents.

• Tova - The Orville. Use current pronouns in general, but pronouns at that point in time for recap pages.

• Takatsuki - Wandering Sun. Takatsuki's gender identity shifts at the end of the work, which is considered a spoiler, so their previous pronouns are used and references to their later gender and pronouns are spoiler tagged.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 23rd 2023 at 3:24:14 PM

I started another thread about that some time ago.

I am generally in agreement that actively misgendering a real person is different from noting down info about a fictional character as they appear at that current point in the story.

Edited by Synchronicity on Jun 23rd 2023 at 9:25:36 AM

Character pages that are mostly spoiler tags because of plot stuff are not uncommon.

And we've got plenty of precedent for Spoilers Off Characters pages, or pages with a warning that all spoilers before a certain point are unmarked.

It's especially true on recaps, which are meant to be devoid of spoilers (as in, no adding spoilers, not spoiler tags which is the case for every other spoilers off page). If Alice transitioned into Alex in season 8, the season 1 recap pages can't be using Alex or He/Him pronouns because that's a spoiler for something that hasn't happened yet.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 23rd 2023 at 12:16:43 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

as a trans person i'm fine with using a trans character's deadname and former pronouns if it's a major spoiler that they transition (i believe that's what we agreed upon for snapdragon for example), but if it doesn't affect the story in a major way, i'm fine with prioritizing their current name and pronouns

I don't know how useful this is, but I think the best way to frame it would be to consider what version of a character is the "iconic" version of them?

For example, Samus Aran has had many different version of her armour through the years, but if you asked anyone what she looks like, you'd get the Varia Suit (which appears in its iconic form the third game of the series, and is rarely what she starts or finishes a game with) or the Zero Suit (which didn't show up until the remake of the first game) when she's unarmoured.

If the character is most well known post transition (whether it happens as a twist right at the end or not), it makes sense to use current pronouns, as you would for an actual person. If they're most well known pre-transition, then it's probably OK to use their deadname and old pronouns more liberally.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer

that sounds really hard to choose objectively in a lot of cases tbh. like, some characters have a clear "most iconic", but id bet far more don't. example— what is tge "most iconic" version of vanya/viktor harvgreeves? the comic came first and she is cisgender there. the show was a lot more popular tho— the first two seasons of the show have him as a woman, but also the character and actor transitioning was a really big news story— i know several people who havent watched the show and couldnt name anothwr character who nonetheless know elliot pages character is a trans guy.

At any rate you have my vote for:

• later in the same installment: correct pronouns throughout unless
  • the transition is a major spoiler, in which case old pronouns, but avoid using them as much as possible
• recap pages: no future information, use pronouns at time of episode
• sequel: maybe depends on how connected the sequels are? like, some series are clearly written as one story in multiple parts, in which case we can assume the character is the same , but others are more distant— for example, changes in creative team, a new story for one that didnt have an open ending, long gaps between books, etc.

Edited by Tremmor19 on Jun 24th 2023 at 2:03:06 PM

I have a case where I'm not sure if anything needs to be done or not.

In KamiKatsu: Working for God in a Godless World, the character of Bertrand was originally a man but was killed and revived as a woman to their horror. Later, Bartrand was briefly returned to male form, and celebrated the fact before being turned right back into a woman in a case of Yank the Dog's Chain. The other characters refer to Bartrand as she, post transformation, but they're obviously not happy with being a woman, and wants someone to kill them, which no one wants to do. They dress in skimpy attire appropriate for their gender, whichever gender they happen to be, as well. (I'm using they because of the weird multi-gender aspect leaving me unsure of whether to use he or she).

Right now, the page, and its character page, refer to Bartrand as He when talking about the time in male form, she when talking about the time in female form, and they when talking about both. Should we stick to one set of pronouns or is it fine as is?

My troper wall

i am in no way familiar with the work, but it sure spunds like the character woukd prefer he/him

is there any kind of narritive pronouns? like the actual work refering to the charcter as she/her, not just another character

I'm only familiar with the anime, I'm afraid, and there one of the characters indirectly responsible for the gender switch offers any narration, and he has a grudge against Bertrand for trying to kill him, so...

My troper wall

Yeah. The impression I'm getting from the work page is that enough characters actively dislike Bertrand that the reason no one will kill Bertrand is because that's what Bertrand wants. While I'm more inclined to think this is just the series/creator not considering the issue, it's also not hard to believe that, in-universe, characters would misgender Bertrand out of spite.

As I mentioned here, Darius Milo Riggs changed Toaster's pronouns to female on Characters.The Brave Little Toaster.

Since Toaster's gender is such a recurring issue despite our previous consensus that Toaster should use male pronouns in spite of Writer Conflicts with Canon, it makes me wonder if we should add commented-out notes to all the BLT subpages.

So some new info from the latest dubbed episode of Kami Kashi. Bertrand, under the influence of another character, tries to rape the protagonist, who explicitly asks "aren't you a man?" His response is that right now he's a woman (but remember, a third character is messing with his mental state and making him horny). After the manipulation is broken, the now naked Bertrand runs off diving himself, with said third character taunts him with the question if he's starting to come around to become a she or is just embarrassed.

I'm now leaning towards referring to Bertrand with male pronouns throughout the wiki, just because of the protagonist's question.

My troper wall

I stumbled across this video elsewhere on the fora. It goes into how (and more importantly why) portrayal of trans and GNC characters tends to be different (and gives a lot of background to Bridget and Poison in particular) in Japan, which would probably be very helpful for the discussions in this thread.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer

Hey all! The OVA adaptation of Fate/strange Fake came out a couple of days ago, and the dub refers to the character Enkidu with they/them pronouns. The character has been referred to in canon in the past as unable to be determined whether they are male or female, so to me they/them makes sense, but the Strange/Fake's pages (which do not refer back to any official translation; the OVA is the first piece of the media to be officially localized) currently refer to the character with he/him pronouns. To me this seems like a pretty cut-and-dry case when it comes to pronoun use, but I was advised to ask here.

Edited to add: Enkidu also appears in the franchise's mobile game, Fate/Grand Order, and is referred to with they/them pronouns both in the game itself and on the pages here for it.

Edited by Afterword on Jul 3rd 2023 at 11:42:02 AM

A smile better suits a hero

I only watched the English dub, so I don't know how the sub handled it, but in the anime adaptation of the Fate/Grand Order Babylonia arc, Enkidu is alternatingly referred to with both he/him and they/them pronouns, with the caveat that it's not actually Enkidu, but someone assuming their form, though most of the characters don't know that right away.

Fate/Strange Fake started publishing before the launch of Fate/Grand Order, so Enkidu being referred by he/him pronouns is due to the fan translation using those pronouns. Even after NA FGO released Enkidu, I believe that the fan translation didn't change Enkidu's pronouns for consistency. Now that there is official English material for FSF that uses they/them pronouns for Enkidu, for pronoun change.

In terms of , Enkidu has been dead before the events of Babylonia takes place, with their corpse having been taken over by Kingu, one of Tiamat's children. In the game itself, Enkidu is referred with they/them pronouns, while Kingu is referred with he/him pronouns.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Official sub and dub pronouns take precedence.

They/them works, and the dub can be mentioned in their listing in the header if it's relevant.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 3rd 2023 at 12:17:24 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Add one for they/them for the same reason. Official English sub/dub takes precedence.

Trans rights are human rights!

Another for they/them.