The Sociopath cleanup

I've been noticing that The Sociopath has been seeing a lot of misuse on this wiki. Many examples boil down to "bad person does bad things", a la Complete Monster. This won't be another effortpost cleanup, but rather, just a regular cleanup thread, though I would recommend consulting these guidelines before posting an example.

Are they a sadist?

Keep in mind, what separates the sociopath from the Sadist is that the sadist has a full grasp on the pain they inflict on their victims, and they get off on it. This would imply a degree of empathy, which, while a necessity for compassion, is not the same thing. Empathy is simply the capacity to feel what other people feel. While there may be some overlap, a character need not be a sadist to be a sociopath. An example of a sadist who is not a sociopath would be the Water Street Butcher from The Poughkeepsie Tapes. He is capable of feeling his victims' suffering, but depersonalizes it by incorporating theatrics into his various tortures and murders, treating it like it's all just a movie, implying that he can feel remorse, he just does everything to ensure he doesn't.

On the flip side, sociopaths often like to do things For the Evulz as a means of stimulation to make up for their inability to enjoy things normally. For instance, Jackie/Megan from What Keeps You Alive enjoys an occasional murder because she's incapable of producing any normal emotion, but it doesn't excite her, as seen when she runs after Sarah and stabs her to death, then returns to Jules and makes her feel her pulse, only to show her that it isn't racing. Or Doppelgänger!Cooper from Twin Peaks, who, while a creation of the sadistic BOB and implied to be an Emotion Eater like him, is a lot less sadistic than his creator. He'll kill his own goons, taunt his enemies before delivering a fatal blow to them, but he's also mostly just cold and indifferent throughout, baring similarities to Anton Chigurh.

Of course, none of this is to say that the sociopath or psychopath is incapable of feeling. There have been plenty of 'paths diagnosed in Real Life who've had the capacity for anger (Klaus Kinski, for instance) and some have even been said to have a few moral standards, such as Ted Bundy, who SOMEWHERE on This Very Wiki it's said he felt he went too far by murdering a little girl. But just remember that for sociopaths, above all, their reason for killing is usually the thrill or their sense of self-importance, which leads me to ...

Are they able to look beyond themselves in their end goals?

For instance, a character who wants to watch the world burn, including themselves, might not be a true sociopath. Remember that 'paths have a grandiose sense of self-importance. While they might be willing to die so they can live forever in infamy, I don't see a character who would sacrifice themselves for some greater evil as a sociopath, unless that sacrifice would mean they'd get a throne in Hell or something like that. Also, I sincerely doubt they'd be able to work with anyone else if it means they'd have to share their power, like The Master from The Strain.

Self-worth

Self-gain and ego are, of course, defining characteristics of the sociopath. However, what separates them from, for instance, a narcissist, is that narcissists feel entitled to get what they believe they're owed, and their egos are on another level entirely. Sociopaths are mostly just out for their needs first, putting anyone else's second, if they're on the list at all. Jeremiah Sand from Mandy (2018) is a textbook narcissist, believing himself to be his god's gift to women and having childish meltdowns when he doesn't get what he wants, and is utterly convinced that he deserves to be loved, whereas a sociopath cares little for such trivial emotions. Patrick Bateman from American Psycho is a more complicated case. He definitely kills people out of a need for stimulation and a lack of empathy, but he also feels like he's owed love and attention and is easily infuriated over the pettiest of slights, like someone having a better business card than him or kicking him in the face.

Complete Monster

While almost every example I've listed in here has been approved by the Complete Monster thread, a villain need not be a sociopath to be pure evil. There's plenty sociopaths who don't fall under that category, either because of some valid Freudian Excuse, they don't do enough to qualify as one, or they're at worst just unpleasant people who do shitty things, but are far from monstrous. Even then, the Complete Monster — while they all have the common trait of being thoroughly irredeemable — are still a varied lot and might just have enough empathy to be a pure sadist, or some might even be okay with sharing their power so long as it means they can enjoy themselves (i.e. the Djinn in the first two Wishmaster movies)

That's just a rough outline for what I think should be taken into account before a character is labelled as a sociopath. Again, no need for effortposts, but if you're on the fence about whether or not a character actually earns the title of sociopath, I recommend coming here to ask.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 6th 2020 at 3:22:23 AM

Hallelujah, this cleanup thread exists now!

We have had cases of four-year-olds shoehorned into this trope.

Rock'n'roll never dies!

I think I have an inkling of which four-year-old you might be talking about.

D.W., isn’t it?

Okay, to start off: YMMV.Atypical

• Contested Sequel: While Season 1 was disliked among the autistic community, Season 2 is more divisive. Some people like it for adding interesting concepts into the series, giving previously underdeveloped characters more depth and generally feeling more realistic than the first season, others hate it for introducing interesting plot threads only to drop them immediately and flanderizing Sam and Casey from a quirky but relateable protagonist and Jerk with a Heart of Gold sister, to a borderline case of The Sociopath and an Annoying Younger Sibling respectively.

Remove that wick. And as controversial as this show is, this YMMV page has a lot of shoehorned complaining.

Rock'n'roll never dies!

WTF? I watched season 2 and ... no. Just ... no. Sam is not a sociopath, or anywhere near it.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 6th 2020 at 6:41:10 AM

@Guma Got it in one. I swear, the way some people talk about her, you'd think she was a female Damien Thorn (well, another female Damien Thorn).

Oh for the love off. Please tell me we removed DW from the sociopath page . Putting her their seems nonsensical.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Okay, just going through some of the subpages for characters I can weigh in on. I'm going by the qualities listed on The Sociopath itself, and I'm not sure if a candidate has to hit all of them in order to count.

Here's a couple I'm familiar with from Animated Films:

Now, Kai hits the need for stimulation, self-importance, and a general lack of empathy. But there two criteria where he doesn't quite hit. First, he's not really a manipulator or socially savvy. He just seems to take what he wants by brute force. Second, while he did end up betraying Oogway in the past, I feel there's a level of ambiguity on whether he still cares for him. Kai still takes Oogway's chi and turns him into a jade talisman, but doesn't use him as a zombie like the other kung-fu masters he fought against. He also seems to be genuinely hurt by what he views as a betrayal by his friend (even if it was because Oogway was trying to stop him from hurting people). Plus, we do see in a flashback that he trekked through the mountains for several days to to get medical help for Oogway when he was injured in a battle, a level of care I think goes beyond what a typical sociopath would do.

Second character to discuss:

I think the Fairy Godmother hits most of the points, except the lack of emotional reciprocity. She genuinely does seem to love her son and while she does use him to advance her goals, the plan serves Prince Charming just as much as it serves herself.

So, I don't know. Is this enough for them to be cut? Any second thoughts?

I haven't seen any of the Kung-Fu Panda movies and it's been ages since I've seen Shrek 2, so I'm not sure. I don't see anything about social savviness being a requirement for being a sociopath on the main page. Care to point it out? Also, to be fair, I do think that MAYBE the Lack of Empathy/emotional reciprocity has been somewhat flanderized. Somewhere (in the same place with the aforementioned note about Ted Bundy) there's a mention of a real life Nazi war criminal who was diagnosed with psychopathy (which, in fairness, is different from sociopathy, but for the sake of the wiki, let's just stick with them being the same thing) but had seemingly genuine affection for I think someone in his family.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 6th 2020 at 7:55:59 AM

I'm talking about these two qualities listed on the main page:

In other words, part of the qualities of a sociopath (as dictated by the page itself) are that they are expert liars and manipulators, and that any form of attachment they have with others is superficial and shallow.

Now, if that's a problem with the page itself, than that should be discussed.

IIRC, sociopathy and psychopathy are both subsets of Antisocial Personality Disorder.

I should also point out that we recently deleted the Real Life page for The Sociopath, partly because because it involved making moral calls about real life figures and also because of the ambiguous validity of sociopathy as a legitimate diagnosis.

So, bringing up stuff like the Ted Bundy example isn't really relevant anymore.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Oct 6th 2020 at 9:11:46 AM

Ah. My mistake, then.

@Miraculous It appears that D.W. has indeed been removed.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills

As for the social savviness ... even that seems to be a little exaggerated at times. Not saying it disqualifies them, but it's often portrayed to nearly unrealistic levels and even then, does someone really need to be (effectively) manipulative to be a sociopath? There's the more realistic sociopaths, such as Luke Lerner, whose charm and capacity for manipulation only lasts up to a certain point, whereas someone like Hannibal Lecter is the archetypal Hollywood sociopath (then again, is he really? He has a few clear moral standards, even if they're utterly warped) who can get under your skin like a pro. Then there's also Harry Powell, who's somewhere in between on that scale. He can manipulate a whole town of gullible folks into thinking he's a good guy just because he's a preacher, but he doesn't fool the devoutly religious Rachel one bit.

And yes, they're both subsets of APD, but there's a few key differences, if I understand correctly. Sociopaths have more capacity for guilt and empathy whereas psychopaths have none, for example.

Last, I'm wondering about Anton Chigurh. One analysis explained he can feel guilt, but he dissociates from it with things like his coin toss and trying to convince himself he's just an agent of fate. But he otherwise seems to have a lot of the characteristics associated with it.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 6th 2020 at 8:41:09 AM

Have a duo that I feel best exemplify this trope, being the above-mentioned Mr. C, or Doppelgänger!Cooper. I'd even say his bastard offspring Richard counts as a low-functioning sociopath. Keep in mind these are NOT effortposts, but merely, examples that should be taken into account before deciding whether a character actually counts as The Sociopath or if they're just The Scrappy (i.e. DW) or another baddie who does bad things and doesn't feel bad. For the former:

• Lack of Empathy and Devoid of Conscience: Check. The only time he shows anything resembling a conscience is when he calls Richard a "bright young man" ... just before sending him to his (honestly much-deserved) death. Otherwise, he remains stoic and cold throughout the season. He'll also shoot his own goons for no reason and think nothing of it later.
• Consummate Liar and Manipulator: Passes himself off as the real Cooper and even almost destroys his reputation? Stages various horrible things so that he can process garmonbozia (the Black Lodge's food of choice) from the pain and suffering he causes? Creates a doppelgänger of himself to scam the Black Lodge into taking him in his place? Yeah, I'd say he passes.
• Pathological Need for Stimulation: As mentioned above, he created a doppelgänger of himself that he tricks the Black Lodge into taking instead of him. Why? Because his need for garmonbozia his need for garmonbozia has, by his own admittance, become a want that's all-consuming.
• Shallow Affect and Complete Lack of Emotional Reciprocity: See above. He does say "Goodbye, my son" after Richard dies, but well, again, that's after he'd had him killed. Not that Richard had much in the way of feelings for him, either, at least in part because he mistook him for the real Cooper.

Grandiose Sense of Self-Importance: He does just about anything to save his own skin, so yeah.

Yes, he checks out. His need to sew pain and sorrow has less to do with taking direct sadistic pleasure from it so much as him needing to literally eat it. Now for Richard:

• Lack of Empathy and Devoid of Conscience: The moment that the audience REALLY started to hate him that only got worse from there? He ran over a little boy in front of his mother while high on cocaine. His reaction? BLAME THE KID. If that doesn't say either of those traits, nothing does.
• Consummate Liar and Manipulator: Probably a superficial one, but he's a handsome enough fellow who starts smoking a cigarette in the Roadhouse while sitting nearby a table of girls and one of them, seeing him as a bad boy who doesn't care about the rules, comes on up to him and he grabs her and starts getting really rapey with his touching. Definitely manipulative, just not as on grand of a scale as his father.
• Pathological Need for Stimulation: He's a strung-out drug addict and does everything in his immediate power to get a fix. His drug addiction is an extension of his sociopathy. And as noted above, he's prone to sexual assault whenever he sees an opportunity for it.
• Shallow Affect and Complete Lack of Emotional Reciprocity: He cares absolutely nothing for his grandparents, robbing his grandmother so he can get the money he needs to bribe Chad to cover up his killing of the boy and get his next fix. Oh yeah, and while he's at it? He goes out of his way to torment his grandmother and his mentally invalid brother Johnny.
• Grandiose Sense of Self-Importance: I ... think that's been pretty heavily established. If you're gonna accidentally hit a little kid and then blame HIM for the accident when you were the one strung out on coke, then yeah, you're pretty fucking self absorbed.

Conclusion? Low-functioning, impulsive, stupid, and Ax-Crazy, but definitely a sociopath.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:01:21 AM

Please tell me where not doing eps. Like cleanup all you want for misuse bu please dont go down this route.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Already said I don't plan on it. Just thought I'd give some good specific examples.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:14:14 AM

A lot of the examples in the Anime/Manga examples either lack context, is natter-y or plain misuse. I'm not familiar with all the works, but examples I'd definitely cut:

• Black Butler: The main characters are ruthless mercenaries/murderers, but they are also True Companions with genuine loyalty and affection for each other. They also kill out of necessity rather than For the Evulz.
• Black Cat: ZCE and general example.
• Darker than Black: General example. Outright admits that the group "lack the stimulation and self-worth aspects of true sociopathy." From the example write-up, they read more like Empty Shells
• Gantz: ZCE. Based on the potholes the characters listed seem to just be "bad guys", but probably not true sociopaths.
• Hot Gimmick: ZCE. Seems more interested with playing armchair psychology on what exactly the character's mental problem is, rather than describing what makes him a psychopath.
• Kill la Kill: All except the first one. I'm not sure about Nui Harime, but Ryuko definitely doesn't count she's is Brainwashed and Crazy at the moment.

I'm rather doubtful about most of the other examples as well.

Edited by Adept on Oct 11th 2020 at 1:44:12 AM

My input on some of the examples.

Death Note Light Yagami: Definite keeper. Not only is every incarnation of his besides the anime a CM, but he also ticks all the boxes relishing in his victims' deaths, and any love he might have had for his family is quickly gone by the time he picks up the eponymous book. And he's able to manipulate pretty much everyone not on the task force.

Kefka Palazzo, Final Fantasy 6: Normally this would be an easy keep, but there's a few factors against his inclusion. Once again, Kefka is a complete monster able to manipulate much of the empire. Unlike like Light though, I don't think it's because of "charm" but rather, fear that people follow him and a healthy dosage of brainwashing. He DOES however, manipulate the Emperor Gestahl into getting him to the Warring Triad and manages to kill General Leo by tricking him into thinking he's doing the will of the Empire. So toss up for him. He ticks most of the boxes but there are a few that are vague at best.

Simon Keyes/Sõta Sarushiro from Ace Attorney Investigations 2: Easy cut. He's NOT a complete monster, he's got genuine love for the assassin that saved him, but had he not had that love he would be a candidate but he has too many genuinely sympathetic qualities to him, even using a classic no emotion "Goodbye Horace." line when tricking Patricia Roland into killing his former best friend. Also, he's not a sadist despite what people might tell you. His "sadist laugh" is because he's a clown that's been through a hell of a lot.

Manfred Von Karma, Ace Attorney: This is a tough one. He's an approved Complete Monster, and ticks many of the boxes but similar to Simon, he doesn't take joy in suffering. Definitely monstrous but I would lean against his inclusion due to not being a sadist.

Edited by Klavice on Oct 11th 2020 at 11:12:11 AM

I think you misunderstood. I said that sadists are generally not sociopaths, because to get off on somebody's pain — as opposed to just killing or torturing because they're bored — is the sadist's specialty and usually requires a degree of empathy. Think Ichi, for instance, as an extreme example. He gets off on pain, but deeply regrets having those feelings. They derive a different kind of pleasure from hurting others. For sadists, it's sexual pleasure, whereas for sociopaths, it's more about the thrill, like snorting a few lines of coke and going around the neighborhood smashing mailboxes with a baseball bat, knowing they might get caught, or otherwise, it's about domination. Being in a position of power over a victim. It's also entirely possible that their attempts at deriving any emotion, pleasure or otherwise, is entirely futile.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 11th 2020 at 3:30:56 AM

Is it relevant at all if a character is a CM?

The Hate Sink thread already had to be saved from becoming CM-thread Lite. Let's not let this happen to this one.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Not really? CM goes into heinousness as well. I mean some interlap is there, but they are not immediate qualifications.

Edited by AustinDR on Oct 11th 2020 at 2:21:36 AM

No, I already said it doesn't.

"There's plenty sociopaths who don't fall under that category, either because of some valid Freudian Excuse, they don't do enough to qualify as one, or they're at worst just unpleasant people who do shitty things, but are far from monstrous."

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 11th 2020 at 5:08:08 AM