I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
In CGI movies or video games unrealistic movements or facial expressions may result in Narm. Dated special effects during dramatic scenes can cause Narm for younger audience members who were raised on nothing less convincing than the Phantom Menace. Totally Radical dialog in cartoons or commercials pandering to children can also be a rich source of Narm. Even a good performance in a bad movie can evoke Narm if the actor's performance isn't enough to save the scene.
That last sentence I feel just confuses the whole thing. It makes it sound like absolutely anything can count as Narm, no matter if it works in context or not.
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1777: Sep 18th 2022 at 10:58:55 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Introductory sentence uses Weasel Words.
- Low context
- What's this trying to say? Just that the sentence is clumsy? That's not enough to be Narm.
- That's just a scene summary that doesn't say what's supposedly funny.
- I guess could be fine
- Just seems to be a reused stock sound effect, not a funny thing.
- I could see the stewardess falling backwards as funny, but the whining tone thing just seems to be a regular flaw.
- General and doesn't sound like it's played for drama.
#1778: Sep 18th 2022 at 8:04:44 PM
Bringing this up from Fun for Some's introductory paragraph:
But perhaps there's something hypnotic about watching the weather forecast on a perpetual loop, or maybe that educational short film has aged badly and picked up some Narm along the way.
I don't know if the trope is being used correctly in that context.
Edited by DongwaChan on Sep 18th 2022 at 11:04:54 AM
#1779: Sep 18th 2022 at 8:11:01 PM
I think it is: replace "Narm" with "unintentional hilarity" in that sentence and it reads the same. And while educational films aren't necessarily going for drama in the narrative sense, they are meant to be taken seriously.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1780: Sep 19th 2022 at 8:37:23 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Cardcaptor Sakura:
- Narm:
- When Syaoran, upon being confused on who he truly likes, Yukito or Sakura stumbles into the latter. In the manga, they had gone into First-Name Basis earlier thus she calls him Syaoran-kun making her joy seemed genuine as is he is one of her closest friends. But in the anime she calls him Li-kun as they are still on a Last-Name Basis since this is before they get trapped in an elevator. This makes this moment less impactful as being called by last name is the equivalent of being more formal towards each other like an ordinary friend instead of someone special.
- You can make a drinking game of just how much they keep saying "Clow Reed's presence". One or two times is tolerable but saying it at every single episode of season 3 then it starts to become annoying. Heck it even goes to the point when Sakura sits on a chair, she immediately says "Clow Reed's presence" on something so mundane.
Libraryseraph
Showtime!
from Canada
(Five Year Plan)
Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
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#1781: Sep 19th 2022 at 8:40:14 AM
First one is a weird nitpick, second one is general, neither are actually funny. Cut
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1782: Sep 19th 2022 at 8:40:17 AM
- Just a flaw/thing falls flat.
- General and not funny.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Sep 19th 2022 at 8:40:29 AM
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1783: Sep 19th 2022 at 9:30:30 AM
Bringing up the following examples from The Batman (2022):
- Narm:
- The Reveal that the Riddler had a chatroom that he regularly streamed on really comes almost out of left field and feels a bit too ridiculous for the drama that the movie he trying to give the moment. As this is when the audience is told about the final steps of the plan, the casual, almost surreal talk that's by Edward given as he's joyfully supported by people who are essentially supporting a terrorist attack makes it very hard to take it seriously.
- Riddler's backstory. Suspension of disbelief is required for any story that has an orphanage in modern timesnote , but describing something out of a Charles Dickens novel certainly isn't helping.
- Selina's line about "white, privileged assholes" is so heavy-handed that she may as well have carried on saying, "I'm Selina Kyle, and I Approved This Message."
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1784: Sep 19th 2022 at 9:46:47 AM
- I feel like the contrast between Riddler's pleasant demeanor when streaming and his ...everything else is deliberate by the filmmakers. I've seen people comment that its parallels to reality made it more creepy, since it felt more realistic. So it kinda reads like someone missing the point here. Though I can see why some might find it funny, so I'm not sure about this one.
- Having a hellish orphanage is par for the course for stories set in Gotham, so again it feels like a nitpick. Anyway, this also fails to say what's funny.
- Not funny; just a nitpick.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1785: Sep 19th 2022 at 10:06:02 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Puppy in My Pocket: Adventures in Pocketville:
- Narm: The animation and the English dub's voice acting has created many moments of this.
- Especially Eva's facial expressions. Apparently the animators wanted to make creepiness out of a cat to show she's the villain but ended up making her look hilarious.
- The Pet Buster, as being a Large Ham.
- The pets' singing of the Friendship Song, especially in the English dub where really deep and slightly nasally voices join in.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1786: Sep 19th 2022 at 10:44:29 AM
- General
- ZCE
- Doesn't say what's funny, and I doubt it's played for drama.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1787: Sep 19th 2022 at 11:42:21 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Narm.Naruto:
- There is an instance that shows how the perspective of a panel can reduce the impact of a scene. Jugo stepped up to take on one of Raikage's bodyguards. We cut back to the kage meeting, then return to Jugo in his Cursed Seal form 2. He's squatting awkwardly in front of Sasuke and Suigestu and saying, "HA HA HA. I'LL KILL YOU." The odd body position and angle combined with the evil cackling makes him look more like an evil troll than a threatening monster.
- He honestly looked like a Pokémon.
- The "looks like a troll" part isn't all perspective and body position. Right then, Jugo was still reduced to the size of a young teenager.
- Then there's Jugo's name, which comes across as an unintentional case of Edible Theme Naming for Spanish speakers; it's kind of hard to take an angry, hulking man-tree with enormous strength seriously when his name is simply "juice".
- Though it wasn't an especially serious scene, the face of Naraka path Pain after it's killed is hilarious looking.
- Naruto falling into an Angst Coma can easily come off as funny if you notice that it seems to result from flashback-overdose.
- This translation makes that scene even funnier because "Gasp!" gets written over and over.
- This translation
- Sasuke's jovial facial expression when he admits that he just absorbed Orochimaru in the ritual that was meant for Orochimaru to take Sasuke's body.
- The overly dramatic narration at the end of Chapter 480 ruined an otherwise disturbing scene for many readers: Sasuke enters true darkness!!! Look at Madara's expression... er... eye on that page. He looks like he just had an orgasm.
- Then there's the face◊ he makes beforehand.
- What's worse than a crazy face? Why, an animated crazy face◊, of course!
- Then there's the face
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1788: Sep 19th 2022 at 11:52:01 AM
- "can reduce the impact of a scene" implies the entry is "thing falls flat" misuse.
- Natter
- Justifying Edit? Natter
- General
- If it wasn't intended to be taken seriously, it's not Narm.
- Reads as Fridge Snark
- Kinda Natter-y
- ZCE. What's funny?
- Maybe fine?
- Weblinks Are Not Examples
- Ditto
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1789: Sep 19th 2022 at 12:22:06 PM
Bringing up the following example from The Oscar:
- Narm: The movie throws every possible Horrible Hollywood cliche at the audience and takes itself completely seriously as it does. Mix that with a bunch of Large Ham and Cold Ham performances and it utterly fails as a serious film, but it's loaded with so much Narm Charm that it still has a cult following.
#1790: Sep 19th 2022 at 12:47:52 PM
Sounds like a general example
RandomTroper123
She / Her
from I'll let you guess...
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Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1791: Sep 19th 2022 at 1:11:49 PM
Seconded. It sounds too general imo.
EDIT:![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'd say that's misuse.
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Sep 19th 2022 at 2:55:02 AM
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1792: Sep 19th 2022 at 1:15:22 PM
Bringing up the following example from Stargirl (2020):
- Narm: Having the Crocks constantly breaking into the Whitmore-Dugans house only to encourage them to eat healthier can come off as cringe comedy.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1793: Sep 19th 2022 at 2:00:25 PM
It's unclear from the given context if that's meant to be taken dramatically. If it's not, you can cut it.
ArthurEld
Since: May, 2014
#1794: Sep 19th 2022 at 2:24:29 PM
Yeah, it sounds like a not serious moment.
Crusher Crock in general is a very comedic character, and his completely serious concern for the hero's physical health and fitness is part of his character. He's very much an overly caring coach and dad while also being an incredibly dangerous killer.
If something is "cringe comedy" it's not really Narm.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1795: Sep 19th 2022 at 2:48:34 PM
Bringing up the following example from The Death of Superman:
- Narm: The original cover◊ to The Death of Superman Graphic Novel looks painful and goofy compared to later releases.◊
ArthurEld
Since: May, 2014
#1796: Sep 19th 2022 at 3:05:30 PM
I'm not sure "woman cries over the corpse of her husband" is what I would call goofy, visible tears and blackish blood aside.
This seems like one of the classic targets of Narm-"shows of emotion the OP thinks are too much".
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1797: Sep 19th 2022 at 5:08:55 PM
Bringing up the following examples from Narm.Naruto:
- This panel◊ from Chapter 478. The shading makes it look like Orochimaru has a mustache and a bit of hair under his lower lip.
- Chapter 484, seeing the Susanoo fizzle out after its latest upgrade was unexpectedly hilarious because the page before had Sasuke declare in a dramatic fashion how he wanted to "change everybody's scornful laughter to screams and moans".
- The outfit that Sasuke wears after fighting Itachi and joining Akatsuki has a ridiculously oversized collar.
- The high collar was another symptom of his "MY CLAN ALONE ROCKS" syndrome; it was tradition among Uchiha men to wear high collars on their shirts. That he incorporated it in a kimono did make him a Fashion-Victim Villain.
- Deidara's giant suicidal explosion in Chapters 362 and 363 is hard to take seriously because its silhouette looks like that of Patrick Star from Spongebob Squarepants — or, to put it another way, a happy starfish.
- That goes for his C4 Garuda, too.
- Sakura stating her wish of having Sasuke rejoin them so that "Team 7 can laugh together again". Uh, what? When did Team 7 ever laugh together? When did Sasuke ever laugh period? Team 7's interaction was mostly Sakura beating up Naruto, Naruto and Sasuke having a heated rivalry, and Sasuke giving Sakura's advances the cold shoulder. Sakura and Naruto sure have a bad case of Nostalgia Filter if they think they were all the best of friends back then.
- The fact that she says this after Sasuke unhesitatingly makes two attempts on her life, attacks their teacher with Susanoo, one of the most broken abilities in the series, and declared genocide on Konoha in misplaced, Disproportionate Retribution really makes you question how much further into denial she can go.
- Chapter 699 reveals how much further she could go: Sasuke offers up a half-assed "sorry" for everything he'd done up to that point, which includes joining Akatsuki, trying to kill Naruto repeatedly, declaring genocide on Konoha, declaring his intentions to kill the Kages and become a brutal dictator to "give the world someone to hate", using a brutal genjutsu on Sakura, and more. How does Sakura respond? With a "for what". Because in Sakura's denial-induced delusions, Sasuke dindu nuffin!
- Or, alternatively, she could have said "for what" because she wanted him to apologize more specifically instead of saying "sorry" in a general sense. Considering she said that he "damn well better be (sorry)" after this would make this more plausible.
- The fact that she says this after Sasuke unhesitatingly makes two attempts on her life, attacks their teacher with Susanoo, one of the most broken abilities in the series, and declared genocide on Konoha in misplaced, Disproportionate Retribution really makes you question how much further into denial she can go.
TantaMonty
Since: Aug, 2017
#1798: Sep 19th 2022 at 5:55:34 PM
- Unsure. The image does look silly, but the example could use more context.
- Abstain. It's definitely an Anti-Climax, but I'm not sure I would call it hilarious.
- Not a moment; Fashion-Victim Villain.
- Natter
- Cut. It's a star-shaped explosion, that's it.
- Natter and ZCE.
- This and the sub-bullets are pure complaining. Cut away.
Anddrix
Since: Oct, 2014
#1799: Sep 20th 2022 at 4:35:03 AM
Bringing up the following examples from Blood-C:
- Narm:
- The gruesomely creative ways used by the Elder Bairns to butcher peasants would be enough to elicit Black Comedy laughs by themselves, even without the bright chromatic palette of the series and the often weird character action which only make them more awkward.
- Episode 12. In two words: the Bunny Blender. The whole town being slaughtered by the Elder Bairn kind of loses its own bite when the creatures doing it look like giant pink and cream rabbits with 'arms' as ears. Not to mention the bit where one stuffs a load of people into a giant bag, then another turns its hand into a blender-type thing. Would be horrific... if it didn't make a typical electric blender sound.
- Nene and Nono's definitive deaths become ridiculous when you recall all of the panty shots they have as they get gruesomely slaughtered. It may have been intended as Fan Disservice, but still...
- Some of the Elder Bairns designs (like the train car marshmallow Elder Bairns from Episode 3 and the mentioned bunny Elder Bairns from Episode 12) looked cartoonish and campy compared to the other Elder Bairns designs which looked creepy and sinister-looking.
- As this video shows, many of the deaths are so over the top they cross the line from gorn and go straight into narm.
MisterApes-a-lot
Since: Mar, 2018
#1800: Sep 20th 2022 at 9:25:50 AM
- General. Also the second half just seems to be describing a regular flaw.
- Might be fine
- Not sure. Seems like something else, like Fetish Retardant.
- General
- General and using a link in place of elaboration.
Total posts: 2,636
From Mayday
- Narm: Some of the Cold Ham moments of the show can be interpreted as such:
- The captain of Air Canada 143 reacting to the loss of power on the aircraft. "How come I have no instruments?"
- "Why was [TAM 3054] going 3 times faster than a regular A320 landing?" Doesn't quite roll off the tongue so readily, does it?
- The entire scene from the first sign of trouble on Crossair Flight 498 to the moment of impact gets progressively harder to keep a straight face through; the first officer repeating himself in a confused tone, the captain's unusual reaction to the attitude indicator's change in appearance, the air traffic controller's unusual transmission, the first officer struggling to stay calm as he responds, ATC compounding the captain's confusion afterward, the first officer repeatedly shouting "Left!", the plane hitting the ground and generating a fireball rendered to be four times its own size.
- TWA Flight 800's breakup would be Nightmare Fuel... if the audio didn't clearly repeat the same silly-sounding stock scream 7 times during the scene.
- Another stock sound effect that's unmissable once you hear it is a female passenger uttering the phrase "OH NO!" with a rather distinctive pause in the middle. It seems to be used almost everywhere, though not quite to the point of it becoming Once an Episode.
- The situation with Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771 was horrific, but the way an air stewardess falls straight backwards after being shot in the back of the head, or the whining tone of a captain on board who tries to intervene are very difficult to take seriously.
- While it might be technically correct, you will probably never hear the word "lubricant" and its derivatives as much as during the episode "Pacific Plunge".
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