I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
That's by design. We don't want people to use the site to indiscriminately complain about things.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah I agree, this REALLY sounds like a Single-Issue Wonk.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
So, I removed this from YMMV.Dragonball Evolution
- Chi-Chi and Goku's final scene is clearly intended to evoke Rocky 3's finale, but although Apollo and Rocky were equal rivals, Goku is so out of Chi-Chi's league that it makes the scene ridiculous rather than exciting, knowing that Goku could probably win in less than 15 seconds.
I removed it because it was based on what ifs since we don't see the fight and Chi-C Hi in the movie is a good fighter. However, now I am wondering if there is something here. Not for the reasons listed here but maybe people would find the referenced so out of place it is funny. Thoughts?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I mean, theyre just sparring its not a real fight.
If thats Narm then so is basically any "superior fighter trains with weaker one" scene.
Plus, if its a deliberate Shout-Out to Rocky 3, then its probably not Narm because that original scene wasn't meant to be taken seriously either it was just a light hearted ending meant to show that Rocky and Apollo were now friends instead of just rivals.
Edited by ArthurEld on Feb 29th 2024 at 1:47:45 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
So, in that case, we should keep it cut then?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I think so, yes.
Rookie Trope Repairer
Yeah, you did the right thing here.
This was just added to The Jungle Book (1967).
- Narm: Even though Kaa is not a threat to be taken lightly...his voice is, as Jim Cummings (the one who currently voices Kaa) puts it, "an evil Winnie the Pooh".
Pretty sure Kaa is meant to be a somewhat comedic villain anyway.
dave bowman but worse
I've heard many people say that the resemblance makes it more creepy- but that's besides the point. I'd say cut.
Tobias/TJ (He/Him)
Agreed, cut. Not only is Kaa meant to be Laughably Evil, but given that Sterling Holloway voiced both Kaa and Winnie the Pooh (and now Jim Cummings voices both characters as well), it just sounds like "two characters with the same voice actor have a similar voice".
Cold turkey's getting stale. Tonight I'm eating crow.
Just a heads up, I cutlisted Narm.Webcomics and moved its contents to the main page. I figured if anyone had any strong objections they would've said something the first couple times it was suggested.
Angry babby
Going over The Emoji Movie.
The criticism of the opening monologue seems pretty accurate. There's a joke or two in there but it's played straight mostly.
- "Words aren't cool!", claims Alex's friend while Alex is deciding on how he should communicate with his crush. Reportedly, audiences laughed uproariously at this line during press screenings, thanks to the apparent belief of the writers that teenagers actually act this way.
This was an intentional joke, though it seems the audience laughed for unintentional reasons.
- The climax of the entire movie hinges on the line "That's one super-cool emoji," a sentence never previously or since uttered without any hint of irony.
- Not to mention Addie saying that she's glad that Alex is "one of those guys who's open about his feelings"...because he sent her an emoji.
- The fact that the plot revolves around Alex trying to figure out how to communicate with his crush when he already has her number, and that he can't figure out the correct emoji to send to her. Much like the "Words aren't cool!" example above, this is another blatant indication that the writers have no idea how actual teenagers act.
- The film's real-world conflict is then resolved with pure plot convenience by Addie asking Alex to the dance because his phone sent an emoji, which apparently makes him different from the other teenagers who are constantly using their phones.
- The film's seeming insistence on never giving Alex a personality at all, as an extension of this. We don't even see him send Addie an actual text with words - when Hi-5 digs it up, it's the lyrics to "Diamonds".
This reads like a list of complaints and could be consolidated into one or two main points about the ridiculousness of a character angsting about not sending the right emoji. The texting part could work, but less about him not having a personality and more about how a teenage boy sending song lyrics being treated as sheer poetry reads more like a joke about how shallow teenage boys can be.
- Jailbreak is a difficult character to take seriously:
- The reveal that Jailbreak's entire motivation is about her status as a princess emoji, and that apparently female emojis were only ever allowed to be princesses or brides. It's supposed to be a touching revelation... that's so absurd it's laughable. Made worse if viewers apply the slightest amount of thought to the situation and remember that the leader of the emojis, Smiler, is female. Even if viewers didn’t do so, they’d realize this when the movie cuts back to Textopolis.
- Anna Faris' cutesy voice is the last thing you'd at least try to expect to accompany with the tough-girl personality Jailbreak is supposed to have, but it's too hard to take her very seriously with that.
This is just complaints.
- The movie's desperate attempts to show that Smiler is the bad guy become unintentionally laughable due to how ridiculously over-the-top and unsubtle they are, particularly as she's actually well-justified in going after Gene and his friends.
Just complaints, and Smiler's Obviously Evil behavior is Played for Laughs.
- The movie's blatant shilling repeated use of Dropbox as being plot-relevant is already inherently funny, as sections of the plot hinging upon a shilled app come across as laughably awkward in scenes supposed to be tense or action-y. This is exacerbated by when considering that it's far from being completely immune to malware like the film tries to imply.
The on-the-nose product placement and treatment of an app as a fort is unintentionally funny if played straight, not sure about the malware stuff though.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
low-poly Shinri
Found these on YMMV.Armored Core VI Fires Of Rubicon and I'm unsure of them.
- Narm:
- Yes, the name "Raven" does carry weight both on Rubicon 3 and in the Armored Core series as a whole, but the overuse and incessant overemphasis on Raven's name by Ayre can make her monologues hard to take seriously for players that aren't deeply invested in the universe's lore.
- Mission briefings constantly have awkward multi-second pauses in dialogue. While barely tolerable in case of intentionally deliberate and refined characters, it's just incredibly jarring when over-the-top gung-ho types like G6 Red keep interrupting their rants for no apparent reason.
Personally, I say that they could still be kept here. Judging from what I read they both sound like the stuff where it's supposed to be serious in story but funny unintentionally.
Showtime!
Neither of those are a specific dramatic moment that is accidentally flat and therefore funny. I'm not even sure why the name raven would be funny
Edited by Libraryseraph on Mar 13th 2024 at 10:30:09 AM
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
x4 Feel free to remove the parts from the Emoji Movie page that are just complaints. Your other reasoning seems solid as well.
Yeah i would cut those Armored Core ones, theyre just regular nitpicks.
"Character says a word with strange emphasis" hardly rises to the level of Narm, and the other one is just "pauses in conversation".
If a character pronounces it "ad-VERT-is-ment" instead of "ad-ver-TIES-ment" that wouldnt be Narm, either.
From It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
Narm: Some people get this response from the shows more earnest moments — it's very hard to hit genuine emotion when your main characters are all stupid, hateful assholes. "Mac Finds His Pride", for example, has a dance routine where Mac reconciles his sexuality and his faith. It's genuinely beautiful and emotional...but it's Mac, whose faith has always been portrayed as Egocentrically Religious stupidity and whose sexuality has been the subject of near-constant mockery for the last three seasons.
I'm struggling with this. The entry even says it's beautiful and emotional, I've never seen anyone complain about this moment (nor Charlie's breakdown in season fifteen), and Word of God has said many times that you're meant to care and understand why these horrible people are the way they are.
Broken Base already covers it.
so a cut, or?
Yeah cut.
The "some people get this" is just natter and as you said, there isnt really a widespread reaction towards that particular moment that fits Narm.
Yes, cut. That's Fridge Logic at best, which isn't allowed on Narm to begin with.
Thanks all!
I say it's a cut as well. But regardless np.
Why did you add a Narm example for a show you don't watch, then?
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?