During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
Heres the Persona 5 examples.
- Magnificent Bastard:
- The Traitor AKA Goro Akechi is an ''attempt'' at one. He is extremely savvy in utilizing the power to enter the Metaverse to create cases and solve them, making himself appear as a detective celebrity in the eyes of the public. He then plays both sides of the conflict, by acting as Shido's enforcer while at the same time blackmailing the Phantom Thieves from a position of strength. Not only does he get Joker arrested and hailed as a hero, but plans on betraying Shido by stealing his electoral victory away from him. However, the problem is that he pretty much gives himself away as the traitor, allowing the Phantom Thieves to deceive him. Not only that, his desire for his father's acknowledgement, which seems extremely counterproductive to his revenge against Shido, which leads to him getting strung along like a puppet.
- Joker and the Phantom Thieves themselves for figuring out that Akechi was going to betray them and setting up a plan to counter his betrayal. Made even more surprising that everything went as planned for them. Not only do they manage to fake Joker's death, but they even get to identify the mastermind of the Conspiracy.
- Fake "Igor" or Yaldabaoth, who used you and Akechi as his puppets the entire game. Not only was he the true mastermind behind the Conspiracy, but he also managed to imprison the real Igor and trick you into thinking that there was nothing out of the ordinary regarding him. He has even rigged the whole game in his favour so that he would end up the victor, regardless of whoever would win win. For many players, this was the best plot twist in the game because of how unexpected it was.
Uh cut the traitor, he's a Psychopatic Manchild and Smug Snake who gets played way too easily and somone rewrote the entry to reflect that. Phantom Thieves I feel are too heroic to count though maybe considering they do some morally ambigious things. I could keep the mastermind though as I feel he makes it.
edited 8th May '18 1:41:51 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Please cut them all and do an EP for the one you want to see stay.
Miraculous pointed out I should have a pending writeups page, so I'll add one to this post and edit it as needed.
Pending MB Writeups:
- Lupin (crazysamaritan)
- Garo Yashiro (Ravok)
edited 8th May '18 2:08:12 PM by 43110
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Cut Yaldabaoth from P5 too, he manipulated everyone but he is also a literal deity, he is not really that smart, plus, the work itself is not sure if he is a Well-Intentioned Extremist or a arrogant Knight Templar.
Nyarlatothep from P2 is a better The Chessmaster but he is also too sadistic to count.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
...I dont really see why people think that the P Ts are morally ambiguous, they realize Heel–Face Brainwashing into people that is uber scum, that is objetively a moral good.
I dont even like them, but I recognize that they are doing good.
edited 8th May '18 2:36:29 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Write ups for the comic book bad guys were requested, so here we go. Figured I'd open with Kingpin, since his rapsheet is somewhat less a matter of public record than Lex Luthor or Doctor Doom's. I'll be using moments from some of his best appearances to demonstrate his qualifications, since trying to list everything he's ever done would be silly.
Who is Wilson Fisk? What's he done?
Wilson "The Kingpin" Fisk is New York City's greatest mobster. Just how powerful he is varies—sometimes his direct rule doesn't extend much beyond Hell's Kitchen, other times he controls all crime in New York, the East Coast, and even the Western World—but he's always a major figure in Marvel's criminal underworld, and keeps numerous supervillains, powered and unpowered on his payroll. He's Daredevil's archenemy and would likely place a not at all unimpressive fourth on Spider-Man's "most hated people" list.
Over the course of a decades long career, Kingpin has controlled most of the world's drug trade, warred with the Maggia, HYDRA, and the Hand, backed candidates for public office and run for it himself, and been The Man Behind the Man to numerous plots to outlaw or eliminate New York's street level heroes, with Spider-Man, Daredevil, and sometimes The Punisher usually bearing the brunt of it. He's driven Daredevil to the depths of despair (see below), framed Spider-Man for murder, and come very close to taking over the Hand and gaining mystical powers that would enable him to expand worldwide. He's fallen from power multiple times, but always claws his way back into the limelight, and every hero and villain at Marvel, including those who are notably more powerful than he is, give him a wide berth because of the resources at his disposal and his willingness to use them.
What's his competition like? How does he perform against them?
As New York's biggest mobster, Fisk has a target painted on his back. He's faced off numerous challenges both within and without his organization, with Silvermane, Hammerhead, and his own son, Richard Fisk, being among his best known enemies. At one point a coalition of his underbosses, led by Richard and new arrival Sammy Silke, launched an internal coup d'etat that left Fisk for dead and assumed control of the empire in his absence.
Fisk has also faced challenges from other supervillains who are outside his usual gangster milieu. He's fought HYDRA, Doctor Octopus, The Hand, and the Red Skull. At various points in time these foes have managed to damage or even disassemble all the Kingpin's built, requiring him to start again from scratch.
And yet, Wilson Fisk endures. He's outfoughtnote , outwitted, or simply outlasted everyone who has ever tried to bring him down. He's seen off many of his competitors, either by killing them or outliving them, while others have eventually been forced to move on for greener pastures while the Kingpin remains a permanent presence in New York. He's a fixture in Marvel's criminal landscape in a way that no one who has ever stepped to him can claim to be, and his perseverance in the face of threats from people who, in many respects, outgun him significantly, is a testament to his strategic sense and sheer bloody minded stubbornness.
Is the character a Chessmaster? Is he a Manipulative Bastard? Is he capable of thinking on his feet?
Fisk's talents as both a Chessmaster and Manipulative Bastard are best demonstrated in "Born Again," where he used his organization to pull Matt Murdock's life apart at the seams, costing him his law license, most of his friends, his home, and much of his sanity. Kingpin not only manipulated Murdock, but numerous other figures, ranging from the chief of police, whom he had blackmail material on, to the psychologically unstable supersoldier Nuke, whom he convinced to attack Daredevil in the name of patriotism. This is likely Fisk's best remembered performance, but it's far from an isolated incident, and he's got a proud track record of manipulating everyone from superheroes like Daredevil and Spider-Man to unstable lunatics like Typhoid Mary into giving him what he wants. Often his victims don't even know who is behind the attacks on them, as Kingpin works through one intermediary after another; Matt had no clue in "Born Again" that it was a Fisk operation until his house blew up ("Nothing about it said 'gangster' until this. It was a nice piece of work Kingpin. You shouldn't have signed it.").
On the opposite end of things, Fisk's longevity as a mob boss is premised on his ability to roll with the unexpected. Richard and Sammy's coup in "Underboss" should have been the end. He was left in a coma in an out-of-country hospital while his wife sold off every piece of his empire and Daredevil took down his henchmen. Yet Fisk returned. He hunted down everyone who helped Vanessa sell the place, executing his one-time consigliere, Walter, personally. He then goes for the survivors of the coup, murdering Sammy Silke in the visiting room at Riker's with his bare hands. He holds a meeting with his former associates and colleagues and essentially tries to bully his way back into control. Ming, of the Triads, objects and tells him he's mad, at which point Fisk reveals he's had Ming's wife raped and murdered. He then reveals he's had numerous underlings and associates of all the other men at the table murdered. At this point, Daredevil has to crash the meeting by way of ramming it with a car, beat Fisk within an inch of his life, and declare himself Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen, all as a desperation ploy to prevent yet another Wilson Fisk comeback tour.
How much of a Bastard is he? Does he have redeeming features? Is he capable of being charming?
See that part above about having Ming's wife raped and murdered? Then there's taking Matt's life apart multiple times over, hiring Bullseye to assassinate Matt's wife, Milla (who is blind I might note), his repeatedly undermining Typhoid Mary's therapy and causing her psychotic alternate personalities to reassert themselves, and of course the simple fact that he's the gangster to end all gangsters and makes his profits off everything from drug running to protection rackets to human trafficking. There are villains at Marvel with higher bodycounts, but few who profit off sheer human misery the way Kingpin does.
Still, he plays the generous, gregarious public figure well, and owns numerous legitimate businesses, not only in the United States but Europe and Japan, and has used these connections to rebuild his organization when he has to. He's been given awards by businessmen's associations, rubbed elbows with mayors, Congressmen, and Senators, and as of a recent arc, ran for Mayor of New York himself. He loves his wife, Vanessa, even when they're at one another's throats, and while his son Richard betrayed him numerous times, Fisk always refused to put Richard out of the picture for good.
Final verdict?
Wilson Fisk is Marvel's ultimate comeback king(pin). He's never out of the game for long, and whenever he's at the table, you can bet he'll be the biggest player there—or at least too big to be ignored. He's warred against and forged alliances with villains ranging from Red Skull to Norman Osborn to the Hand and beyond, and forced Daredevil to compromise his morals and ally with him in order to escape from prison. He's the Kingpin of Crime, and one of Marvel's most definitive cases of Magnificent Bastard.
Thoughts, questions, comments?
edited 8th May '18 2:36:19 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Kingpin. A classic one. He is a bastard but he usually seem to have redeeming traits to avoid being a Complete Monster
Also, from Persona 2
- Magnificent Bastard: Nyarlathotep, of course. He sets the board up to his advantage, his plans have such style, and his manipulations so meticulous and cunning that he's the only Persona god to actually win
I wanna cut this with holy fire.
Nyarly is a God of Evil, most of his plan is less him being uber smart and more being creative with his godlike powers.
Plus, he is too sadistic to be really "Magnificent". He is a God of Evil Made of Evil.
Albeit, If someone want discuss it, I am ready to do it.
Now. I have a possible candidate from the original Persona game from the PS 1. He is probably my favorite Persona villain and I think that he is worthy candidate.
edited 8th May '18 2:45:32 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
In that case, cut all the Persona candidates and yes to Fisk. Does anyone mind me axing the Breaking Bad examples?
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
- Magnificent Bastard: Lupin the III creates intricate heist plans, anticipating the efforts of his enemies to capture him, consistently proving he is the greatest thief to ever live. He's a Villain Protagonist who is avoiding arrest, assassination, or traps at least Once an Episode. Inspector Zenigata, who is always trying to capture him, is often left in the dust, screaming Lupin's name while the Villain of the Week is left tied up to go to prison with Pops.
Before you cut Gus, I think we need set a rule on fallible someone can be and still be a MB? I do think an MB should be allowed to make a mistake or have an off day, I think Gus had a mental blind spot regarding Hector, it does not negate his past deeds.
I want to make the rules crystal clear before I propose the major Star Trek characters. Because Garak is pretty complex character, who has awesome and bad days. In season 2, we discover Garak is secretly an addict and was in danger of dying due to his addiction to sci fi drugs, there is an episode in season 7 where he is having panic attacks, but I do not think these flaws negate Garak's awesome moments (like a scheme that changes the course of a major war and likely set the course for that section of the galaxy), I think the difference between Garak and other characters on the show, is he can better handle his flaws, then someone like Dukat who just goes over the deep end. Garak gets over his panic attacks and there was an episode in season 5 where Garak directly had to confront his claustrophobia to save his allies and I think Garak having to face his worst fears and still getting the job done is better amazing, in a quieter way.
Also regarding Q, how do we square this trope with the Trickster Mentor trope, which is Q's M.O. Q is a god like alien who can do anything he wants, so he tests humans like Picard, gives them puzzles and tests so that they learn something, though some of these puzzle and tests are more harsh then others.
Anyway yes to Fisk, Kaz and Yashiro.
Burn Kefka and Voldemort.
Also speaking of Star Trek, I noticed some MB entries in Deep Space 9 YMMV section, besides Garak (who I can make an arguemnt for) and Dukat (Who deos not count):
- Weyoun, the most prominent member of a race that was engineered to be this, although he tends to vary. Depending on his particular incarnation, he can twist the other characters around like bits of yarn, or he's a Smug Snake. You have to admire the way he drinks that poisoned kanar, though.
- The Founders are nearly an entire race of Magnificent Bastards, lacking perhaps only the charisma that usually goes with the trope. They manipulate politics on a galactic scale and are not afraid to personally take a hand in doing so, disguising themselves as major figures to disrupt other superpowers internally.
- Section 31. At the end of the series, a whole Star Empire is dancing on their tune. They also prove to be so useful and efficient, even the Federation will tacitly support their attempt at genocide. Sloan in particular achieves this status with his devilishly clever Batman Gambit in "Inter Arna Enim Silent Leges". The genocide plot could also easily be considered a Xanatos Gambit, to be honest.
Weyoun is a total Smug Snake, generically breed to the Founders's diplomat and boot licking toady, he is smug to those below him and servile to those above him, not many feats to his name and frankly only seems to have his position due to being a sycophant. Weyoun is generally competent (though he makes a couple of major mistakes, like deciding blowing up a city is the best way to deal with a rebellion on a planet, which only makes things worse.) Cut him.
The Founders and Section 31 are groups and do not count.
The Founder we spend the most time with is the Female Changeling, who I think is generally repulsive character. Xenophobic, genocidal, paranoid, disdainful of anyone who is not a Changeling and prone to some big errors due to falling into the Evil Cannot Comprehend Good trap, she far away from this trope and the other Founders all seem to share her poisonous outlook on life.
edited 8th May '18 3:52:49 PM by Overlord
My issue with Gus is that everything he does is wrapped around his meticulously planned torture of Hector and in his final episode he slips up on so many counts he should have picked up on. It’s not just an off day. I still motion he be cut, his Big "NO!" as though it was a shocking situation he got himself into just cements it to me.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I did a effort post. Is the time to judge it.
- Who is Takahisa Kandori, what he had done?
Kandori is The Big Bad of Megami Ibunroku Persona, the PS 1 game that did start the franchise and no one remembers except a small fanbase who prefers P2 to it (except me, I think that P1 Needs More Love).
Takahisa Kandori is a former graduate and student council president of St. Hermelin High School and in the present the head of the Mikage-cho branch of SEBEC, which is used as a front to further development of the DEVA System. Using the reality-altering system Kandori ends up manifesting Maki Sonomura's mind into the entire town of Mikage-cho, allowing him to make contact with her malevolent Id, known as the Creepy Child Aki, through which he is able to gain control over half of Mikage-cho at manipulating her.
While ultimately successful in becoming a demigod, Kandori becomes nihilistic in his outlook, losing his interest in the power he had accrued, and is on the verge of giving himself up to the protagonists who had fought their way to him when Kei Nanjo pelted him with insults and taunts, prompting him to prepare his Persona Nyarlathotep and enter his final battle.
In the confrontation with him, he asks only one thing of the party: kill him so he can experience death. In the end, Nyarlathotep possesses his body, forcing him to transform into a stronger form, called "God Kandori", before finally allowing him to die at the party's hands.
In the alternative route -Snow Queen Quest-, Kandori appears younger in a reflection of his St. Hermelin High School days, called the Masked Boy. He is an ally to the Night Queen alongside the Masked Girl, but assists the party for his own amusement. He and the Masked Girl merge with the Night Queen and attack the party, but are defeated. Despite this, the Masked Boy says that this is a minor setback and that he will have to take things into his own hands. While the game is over after that, the game implies that the events of the main game are going to happen, which means that yeah, Kandori will succeed at becoming a deity no matter what. And that he became The Dragon of an Evil Godess willingly just for fun.
During the events of Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, Takahisa Kandori is brought back to life through the power of Kotodama performed by the New World Order and poses as Guy Shinjo the secretary to Tatsuzou Sudou. During the course of the game it is revealed that Nyarlathotep summoned him to develop the Joker Separation Machine that extracts Kegare (energy created for negative emotions) from humans. He does that by employing an entertainment producer and running a convention where they incite people to think positively, all while using the Catchphrase of the P2 Female MC until they get their Kegare drained from their victims, forcing them to spend all the eternity in eternal mindless happiness (wait, this don’t sound too bad?).
He is fought in the Undersea Ruins alongside Chizuru Ishigami, who is implied to have developed feelings for him, which he at least partly reciprocates. If the player has chosen Nanjo's route, he will be fought against along with four X-2 robots. He suggests that he is Nanjo's "Shadow" while Nanjo assumes the "Light" role. When defeated, he encourages Tatsuya Suou to conquer the Shadow (Nyarlathotep) which has been toying with his fate but refuses to flee the collapsing ruin and stays with Chizuru to die despite the pleas of his old adversaries. He expresses some regret for his chosen path, but he admits he also believes he's too old to change. After his second death, Maki –the same girl that was his test project- expresses regret that she wasn't able to speak to him again and later his half-brother Reiji Kido, who wanted to kill him in the first game, shows signs of forgiveness and combines both brothers' name for Reiji's unborn child.
What's his competition like? How does he perform?
Well. He is never actually fought intellectually for anyone in P1 (he already had won by that point) and the second game does retcon his own success at creating the DEVA System, but fortunately, only that.
When the game starts, Kandori already started his plans and connected Maki to the DEVA system, then he befriends her Id and eventually he does archive his goal of become a deity. He practically let himself be killed for the heroes, who had to find several items and solve Maki own personal issues to solve the mess that he started.
His manipulation of Aki is actually quite good, Aki is –by her nature as the Id of Maki- naturally angry and resentful to everyone, yet Kandori manages to manipulate her and eventually, develop some level of paternal bond with her.
In P2, he is the mastermind behind the Kegare explotations alongside with Chizuru, sure, they are now working directly for The God of Evil (and Kandori was forced to do it because metaphysics) but he is pretty competent on that, considerably more than his other NWO partners. And that without being willing.
Plus, in P1, he also basically works as The Dragon for an evil goddess for mere fun.
How much of "a bastard is he? Does he have redeeming features? is he capable of being charming?'
Kandori is the class of person that did let his natal city to be turned in a Eldritch Location controlled for the psyche of a depressed teenager because he wanted to become god, then, when does that, he creates his own castle and destroy half of the city.
He also sends gunmen to kill the mother of his test subject and a scientist who helped him to create the Deva System and send his lackeys to kill the heroes all the time, all without caring for how many people is harmed.
He is a massive asshole that don’t care of how many people is harmed to reach his goals. But he has redeeming traits, he is kind to Aki, and while it starts as manipulation, he develops some fondness for her. He also seems to respect his half-brother and don’t discriminate him for being an illegitimate son (remember, Japan have a bias against illegitimate sons, Kandori don’t disliking him for that is a notable Pet the Dog) and then in EP, he shows being disgusted at Nyarly evilness and only work with him because he had literally no other choice.
He is also pretty polite towards everyone, even his enemies, and when he became a deity, he realizes that he doesn’t have any goal beyond that. He doesn’t want to Take Over the World or kill tons of people. So, he decides take Nanjo insults towards him a bit more personal as a way to start a fight to get himself killed because he wanted experience death too.
He has a Alas, Poor Villain death and Face Death with Dignity and is very telling that after his death, Maki and Reiji also manage to forgive him in some level and Nanjo, while not exactly forgiving, still respects him despite his resentment towards him (Kandori cause the death of Nanjo butler)
Final verdict?
I say yes. Kandori is a smart guy doing his best to reach power and who had already won over everyone, manipulates a girl Made of Evil and manages to get into her kinder side, he does have loyal employees ready to die fighting for him and ultimately, he succeeds in what he wanted. Dying in his own terms after realizing that he had nothing more to win.
In P2, he still manages to be one of the more dangerous leaders of the NWO, even if he is working against his will.
Kandori is –considerably- the smartest human villain of the entire Persona franchise and is, IMO, a worthy candidate for this trope.
edited 8th May '18 4:58:37 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Yeah, but does that one moment undone everything else? I personally do not think so, I think he had a legitimate mental blind spot in regards to Hector. But that's just my opinion.
edited 8th May '18 4:30:26 PM by Overlord
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Also in the Star Trek category:
- Characters.SF Debris Star Trek The Next Generation: Magnificent Bastard entry: Q orchestrated the entire Borg arc to teach Picard a lesson. By causing the Federation to encounter the Borg prematurely in "Q Who?", he set the stage for Picard's eventual assimilation in "Best of Both Worlds" and his rage-fueled actions in First Contact. Specifically, it is his response to Picard praising humanity with a quote from Hamlet, one of the major instances of shallow arrogance Picard - and by extension, humanity - frequently displayed in TNG's first two seasons;
Picard: [Hide and Q?] ... And what he said with irony I say with conviction, "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty..."
Picard: [First Contact] And I will make them pay for what they have done!
Chuck: And somewhere, Q is laughing, and quoting those lines from Hamlet with all the irony that they were intended. - YMMV.Star Trek Enterprise: Magnificent Bastard entry: Silik. Mirror Universe Forrest, Archer, and Empress Hoshi.
- YMMV.Star Trek Discovery: Alternate Character Interpretation entry: Is T'Kuvma a Fantastic Racism suffering bigot and The Fundamentalist, or is he a savvy political operator who knows the only way to unite the feuding Klingon Empire is to use a combination of religion as well as Genghis Gambit tactics? Is he possessed of any honor whatsoever, or is he a Hypocrite who lured an enemy under a flag of truce to kill them in an act of pure cowardice? (The latter answer could be "yes", given that the Klingon sense of honor verges on Blue-and-Orange Morality compared to how modern Europeans and Americans would define it.)
- YMMV.Star Trek II The Wrath Of Khan: (commented out) Magnificent Bastard entry: Kirk and Khan both.
- YMMV.Star Trek III The Search For Spock: Kruge. "YES!!!! EXHILARATING, ISN'T IT!!!!!" GIIIIIIVE MEEEEE GENESIIIIIIIS!
- YMMV.Star Trek Generations: Magnificent Bastard entry: Admit it, Soran is a pretty audacious guy. He's not afraid to get down and dirty to enact his plan, which includes manipulating Klingons to help him blow up stars.
- Awesome.Star Trek 2009: Also, the way Kirk finally "wins" The Kobayashi Maru scenario pretty much cements his reputation as the biggest Magnificent Bastard in the Star Trek universe. Although let's face it, the way we're told he won it in the original timeline, as per the novel The Kobayashi Maru, was even more badass: instead of simply removing the enemy's shields so that he could blow them up, he had the scenario reprogrammed to acknowledge the reputation he intended to have as a starship captain, with the result that when he introduced himself as Captain James T. Kirk, the enemy promptly surrendered.
- Star Trek Into Darkness: John Harrison plays just about everyone with ease and style. And then it's revealed that he's Khan, one of the franchise's most magnificent villains. It was perfectly obvious that he would inevitably fit this trope with ease even before the movie was released.
- YMMV.Star Trek Into Darkness: Magnificent Bastard entry:
- Harrison plays just about everyone with ease and style. And then it's revealed that he's Khan, one of the franchise's most magnificent villains.
- If it wasn't for the fact that he was a Smug Snake, Admiral Marcus could count. His entire plan (get Kirk to kill Khan with his torpedoes while also getting rid of his crew, sabotage the Enterprise and then destroy it to make it look like the Klingons did it) to jump start a war with the Klingons is actually pretty intricate and risky. If Kirk had just done what he was told, Marcus could have gotten what he wanted.
- StarTrekOnline.Tropes A To M: Most items cost 400 Zen or more. [[MagnificentBastard Cryptic Studios know what they're doing.]] (pretty sure Real Life studios are misuse)
- YMMV.Star Trek Online: Magnificent Bastard entry:
- Franklin Drake. Especially once you reach the Captain levels. To say more would be spoilers.
- Obisek, anti-villainous Dark Messiah of the Reman Resistance, is not quite as smooth an operator as Drake, but makes up for it with scads of charisma and balls of steel.
- The Iconians are rapidly getting here. They've been playing every faction like harps to get their homeworld and empire back, and as of Sphere of Influence they've essentially caused all the major ones to punch themselves out to give them time to set up their Portal Network.
- Sela, escaping from the Iconians and the Elachi, taking over Gaius' Borg implants to escape Republic custody, leading our heroes to a third Iconian gateway, calling Taris out and kicking her to her doom after she reveals that she wanted the Iconians to fix Hobus and Romulus, then escaping custody again when the Iconians spot everyone!
Attention wandering, but very few of these Wicks seem to properly explain why the characters qualify, even assuming they do. Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
I'll say yes to Kandori by the by. Though I wonder if Adachi could qualify for this trope
edited 8th May '18 4:52:37 PM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Adachi is too much of a loser to count. He is also too unhinged to qualify
@ Kazuya, I'll say yes to Kandori
@ crazysamaritan, Did Lupin get at least five upvotes? If so, his writeup is under 200 words but has a lot of potholes, before moving it to the drafts please remove all except the five you want to stay. Also, WOW are those Star Trek entries bad. Please remove them all and we'll come back with EPs later for whoever folks want to see stay.
@ Overlord, Okay, looks like we're both pretty firmly in our stances on Gus. Does anyone else have an opinion so we can break the tie?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
That's how we did it on CM, so I figured I'd steal it for here. No one seems to be opposed, so it shouldn't be an issue but just thought I'd ask. I'm trying to make it so my signature has room for both the pending and drafts but there isn't enough space, I'll change it to drafts since that seems handier. On that note, I'm not criticizing the entry but Lupin is the Villain Protagonist of a long runner, so please feel free it you'd like to add more examples of his Magnificent Bastardry into it if you think it would look good.
edited 8th May '18 7:04:47 PM by 43110
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
- Didn't realize there was going to be a minimum number of votes.
- What drafts?
- Will do.
@ crazysamaritan, I can only speak to some of those villains:
I think Kruge is a typical Klingon villain and is not impressive enough to count.
I love Khan, but he may be too obsessed with revenge and makes big mistakes due to his obsession, to count.
Kirk is a hero, so he does not count.
T'Kuvma is pretty bigoted against non Klingons and I do not think he is that impressive in terms of abilities, he just seemed like a guy who was in the right place at the right time and he is out of the picture pretty quickly.
Sfdebris as humorous internet review show, so that has no bearing on whether Q counts or not.
Admiral Marcus is a Smug Snake, even the entry notes it.
edited 8th May '18 8:16:49 PM by Overlord
Goku Black
Kandori and kingpin.
I think mainline SMT Lucifer would also be a decent candidate.
edited 8th May '18 10:33:17 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
This is Kingpin's initial entry:
- Wilson "The Kingpin" Fisk. No matter what the various heroes of the Marvel Universe throw at him, Fisk will always find a way to reclaim his empire, and make anyone who challenges him very sorry in the process. We've seen him rise and fall and rise again, all without ever losing the gravitas that made him The Kingpin of Crime in the first place.
This is a rewrite drawing on the material in my EP.
- Wilson "The Kingpin" Fisk is Marvel's greatest gangster and a consummate survivor. Having outfought, outwitted, and outlasted everyone who has ever tried to take his place, Fisk has secured his position as both New York's reigning mobster and a fixture in the supervillain community. With the capital to dominate the city and a reach that frequently spans continents, Fisk has developed the psychological torment of heroes like Matt Murdock and Peter Parker into an art form, and has left Matt's life in particular in ruins several times over. Always too stubborn to call it quits, Fisk rolls with or shrugs off everything that Marvel's heroes and villains can throw at him, while repeatedly demonstrating that only the most capable of opponents can do the same when he brings all his resources to bear on them. Having risen, fallen, and risen again, Fisk is never out of the game for long, and is always ready to show off the criminal skill and personal gravitas that made him Kingpin of Crime in the first place.
The emphasis is the same as in the first version, but expanded upon considerably. Given Kingpin's relatively limited power compared to other supervillains at Marvel, I think it's important to place the bulk of the focus on his ability to survive just about anything the MU can throw at him, hanging on when much more theoretically capable players have bowed out.
edited 9th May '18 8:48:08 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Goku Black
Alright another example I found that needs to be cut:
The Shawshank Redemption: Another rare heroic example is Andy Dufresne. Upon discovering the deteriorating condition of the wall of his cell, he slowly (as in over the course of twenty years) carves an escape tunnel through it. Meanwhile, he works his way into the trust of the Warden, who is under the mistaken assumption that he is the Magnificent Bastard. Twenty years later, Andy escapes from the prison, taking a new identity—that he happened to create for the purposes of laundering the Warden's embezzled money, thus making himself a millionaire—and having the Warden and sadistic guard both arrested...all without mentioning a single word of his plan to anyone...not even his best friend. Andy is like the heroic version of Keyzer Soze, and gives us one of the most satisfying endings in film history.
Andy's a Guile Hero. Not this by trope. I motion to move his entry there.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Goku Black
Also on Animorphs
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Visser Three and Visser One approach this in their respective backstories, before the Villain Decay (and in Visser Three's case, insanity) set in.
- David and Tom both fancy themselves to be this, but are usually seen as just Smug Snakes.
- The one who probably comes the closest to this trope is, of all people, Jake who really cracks out the gambits before diving into What the Hell, Hero? territory.
- The Ellimist. Megamorphs #04: Back to Before cements it.
Drode: Oh, I see it now, I see it now. Subtle as always, Ellimist. Your meddling came before, didn't it? How could we not have seen it? Elfangor's brother? His time-shifted son? This anomalous girl here? And the son of Visser One's host body? A group of six supposedly random humans that contains those four! You stacked the deck!The Ellimist (laughing) Did I? That would have been very clever of me.
Visser three should be cut, the guy is a true dumbass, One I think came closer but dropped the ball in the end. Tom and David are admitted by the freaking entry to be Smug Snake 's . Jake is you know the Protaganist and I think Elimist might be too much of a good guy for this trope.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Hey guys glad to be here and nice to see you once again Ravok.
Anywho's to Fisk, Kaz, Yashiro, and Kandori.
Also what about these characters from South Park I found them on the main western animation MG page:
- Zig-zagged with Eric Cartman. On one hand despite being an ignorant slob who is shown to have little common sense in many things, he displays an uncanny level of charisma and social savvy manipulating hordes of people into going along with his latest audacious plan, his plan of the utter ruining of a teenager who scammed him out of sixteen bucks being the most prominent example. However, he usually looses his cool whenever things don't work out for him and is shown to be quite the Dirty Coward whenever faced with physical confrontation, traits unsavory for this trope.
- Wendy Testaburger arguably plays this trope straighter, especially when she thinks you crossed her. She orchestrates a complex plan in hiring the Iraqis to have Miss Ellen sent to the sun, all because her boyfriend Stan had a crush on her. She's also capable of outwitting the aforementioned Cartman and his various scheme and doesn't let his torment get to her; when it does she will make him regret doing so by giving him the absolute beating of a lifetime.
- Season 20 gives us Lennart Bedrager. He's actually an American internet troll who rose to power in Denmark and created Troll Trace in order to troll the entire world by sending it into World War III. He knew that when people had the power to look up anyone's internet history, everyone would become paranoid and everyone would hate each other when they see what they did online. And why did he do it? Because it's fucking hilarious!
Out of all these three I think Cartman is the one I'm most certain that needs be cut. While shown to be an exceptional Manipulative Bastard, he's prone to constant outbursts and Villainous Breakdowns whenever things don't go his way making him come across as a Smug Snake. Cartman is also a Politically Incorrect Villain to anyone who isn't a caucasian catholic, especially towards Jewish people and has also revealed himself to be a Dirty Coward in "Breast Cancer Show Ever"
But what about Wendy and Lennart Do they need to be cut as well?
edited 9th May '18 3:41:58 AM by G-Editor
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Cut all of them. For our good
The Lucifer of some games, most of them happen in different universes so it would be a case for case thing. Albeit, Nocturne Lucifer would be a decent candidate
edited 9th May '18 3:49:15 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Ambar, looks great! Please add that to the drafts.
All those examples look like they can be cut.
Pennywise, The Dancing Smug Snake Dirty Coward... Oh, joy!
@ Miraculous, Purge Junko, great villain, not this! The entry even acknowledges she could well not be one—she's not—she's fucking nuts!
Edit: Some more cuts, this time from Breaking Bad:
Walt is an interesting spin on a Villain Protagonist take of this trope but I find his emotional breakdowns, though he eventually gets over them, to be so intense and childish it kills his magnificence for me. Adding to that, I'm not sure if he's quite a Smug Snake but certainly underwrites legitimate threats on the basis of believing he's so smart no one can touch him.
Gus... damn, if not for his final episode I would say he would be a perfect example of an MB. Being the way it is though, he suddenly lets down his guard and throws aside his meticulously laid plans to fall into an obvious trap set for him by Walt, becoming almost a different character in his finale. I found the writing on his exit to be so bad it's what started to make the show fall apart for me but nevertheless, it happened so I don't think either belong.
Thoughts?
edited 8th May '18 1:20:38 PM by 43110