Appeals to the troper hivemind...
If you want to propose a new trope, use YKTTW; if you're looking for a particular trope, try Lost And Found. For a discussion on a particular topic, head over to the Forum
instead.
New items at the top, please. ...But underneath this line.
macroscopic: Editor at 174.121.24.57 has reverted all the natterswabbing I did (and in fact all my edits) at The Human Centipede. Seriously? That shit is gross, I didn't have to read that page, much less clean it up.
Fast Eddie: Edit block installed for 174.121.24.57.
Exploding Frogs: This guy
keeps spamming various badly formatted, poorly justified, redundant, and sparsely detailed profiles (mostly One Piece characters, but a few others as well) to the Trope Pantheons section. (And to add insult to injury, he doesn't seem to grasp the concept of new entries going at the bottom of the page.) He's been asked to stop numerous times via edit reasons, but over the course of several months shows no sign of doing so. Help, please?
Fast Eddie: Edit block installed for 66.229.247.108.
Some New Guy: User sovvil2008@yahoo.co.uk 78.147.229.232 keeps removing valid entries from the Chaotic Evil and Chaotic Neutral pages to fit his skewed standards. He also, several months ago, vandalized the Lawful Evil page by removing the valid "type 1, type 2" distinction, again to suit his standards. Help?
Fast Eddie: Edit block installed for 78.147.229.232.
Pk Mario: This guy
is vandalizing certain pages.
Fast Eddie: IP block installed.
Mullon: Why is the Heterosexual Life-Partners page wider than any other page?
blackcat: This is a total guess but I bet it is because of the size of the picture. I don't know how to fix it either.
Micah: It was the picture—it's because the markup said [[quoteright:237:...]], but the picture is 365 pixels wide, so it should say [[quoteright:365:...]]. I fixed it...
Dick Richardson - Just wondering, would it be possible to install a "revert" button for edits? Hell of a lot easier to paste/cut in the event of a vandalism aftermath.
Ethereal Mutation: This guy
keeps writing hostile attacks at some random fanfiction writer/artist on various pages. This guy deletes them. I don't know the details of or care about this feud, so I'll leave it up to administrator fiat if one or both gets blocked.
Impaled Janus: I'm having issues with Cecità Al Genere. However I write it, the word "Al" is not capitalized. Is there a way to fix this?
Fast Eddie: It's fixed now.
Cryptic Mirror: Troper Anaheyla has been removing Statler And Waldorf examples whenever he comes across them and has stated on the page history.
- "The only reason I haven't gone through all of the listed pages and removed them is because I'm too lazy to remove them from any page other than the ones I actually visit."
I don't want to get into an edit war over this, I've already replaced them and had them removed once. Can anything be done?
Fast Eddie: Some example pages?
On the Statler And Waldorf index's page history his full comment on why he intends to do it is:
- "I keep deleting their stuff because they serve no purpose and seem to exist only to make really really retarded jokes about Tv Tropes completely unrelated to the subject at hand. The only reason I haven't gone through all of the listed pages and removed them is because I'm too lazy to remove them from any page other than the ones I actually visit. :P "
Which kinda misses the point of Just for Fun stuff. I note that on his contributer page he self describes as a Jerkass... w
Press X To Jason, what? I think someone based that off of a line from the Love It or Hate It page. It's barebones, and has no apparent YKTTW.
Looney Toons: Send it to the Cut List, then.
I'm unregistered.
Triassicranger: Motion to block IP address 70.92.173.24 for using the Dethroning Moment Of Suck Web Original page to complain about an entire work. He has been informed repeatedly what he is doing wrong and refuses to listen.
Klaudandus: We've been having some issue over at the Transformers All Hail Megatron page. 220.233.23.38 is close to an editing war over a specific trope (Villain Sue) and has repeatedly ignored the discussion page where that point has been already discussed. Please advice.
Chabal 2 Not sure if this is where one reports this, but there are two Troper Tales for I Didn't Mean to Turn You On (one's the punctuated title): here
and here. The Troper Tales button from the main page leads to the punctuated page.
Anonymous Coward: Since I don't have a log-in (long story short, college ISP hates me and TV Tropes and for some reason I haven't been noticed for using proxies yet, and proxies have a distinct hatred for Getting Known) and I can't take this to the forums, someone vandalized the School Days page, deleting legit tropes without any reason.
This is why I wish we had a "Revert Edit" option like Wikia.
Fast Eddie: repaired, I think. And IP banned.
Paul A: Your ISP also hates é, apparently.
Unknown Troper: Wait, are tropes organised like this?
or like this, with the trope titles organised without definite or indefinite articles? I always assumed the latter. (Note: not referring to works titles, only trope examples)
Fast Eddie: Right. The second one.
K.o.R: None of my images are showing up in the Images List, either by filename or by my handle. They're still on the server but not visible to the software apparently. This is troubling as I can't remember one of the filenames which I want to add to a page.
Fast Eddie: Huh. Seems to be working for everyone else. When did you upload it?
K.o.R: Oh yonks ago (certainly before some of the new shiny tech was added here). I checked by searching for Citizen's pictures and only got about a dozen when I know there's close to 100 from him/her.
Looney Toons: I just noticed — fanfic recommendations no longer have discussion pages? Is this intentional/correct? (If so, we need to change all the pages that say to take natter and debate to the page's discussion page.)
Cryptic Mirror: Pages are still there for me, the discussion icon is one line up from the other icons though. What browser are you using? I'm on the latest firefox.
Looney Toons: I'm on SeaMonkey 2.0.4. And I'm going back and looking — and I'm seeing discussion icons on some pages, but not all. For instance, for me at least, Neon Genesis Evangelion has one, but Buffy the Vampire Slayer doesn't. Of the pages in my watchlist, Buffy, Suzumiya Haruhi, Mega Crossover, Sailor Moon, Mahou Sensei Negima!, Sakura Taisen, Mai-HiME, All-Purpose Cultural Cat Girl Nuku Nuku, Revolutionary Girl Utena, and El-Hazard: The Magnificent World all are missing the icon (although they have the discuss button, I just realized). <spends a couple minutes futzing about> Ah, I got it! The speech bubble icon only displays if there is a "new style" discussion in place for the page. Otherwise you need to press the blue text button to create one.
Looney Toons: A note to Fast Eddie — Trope Entry Template, which is no longer editable, needs to have the line
modified to fit the new indexing scheme. Also, the paragraph
probably needs to go — Weird Science isn't split any more, and I think recent reorganizations to the wiki have completely obviated the need for this kind of advice.
Madrugada: Mr Cleaverhook (86.136.49.50) vandalizing Troper Tales pages. Blanked Really Gets Around; added a Take That! to the top of Noble Demon and removed entries; deleted entries from Badass Bookworm; Added Take That! to the start of Omnicidal Maniac. I know the contents of those pages are cruft anyway, but it's still vandalism.
Some Sort Of Troper: Diagnosis: "Somebody on the internet isn't cool!" rage, leading to Jerkass behaviour. It may be meaningless but it ain't functionless and if somebody acts this way in response to not getting what something is about, not somebody we want. Suggested treatment: ban. Do you concur, doctor?
Fast Eddie: IP block installed.
Looney Toons: It looks like he might be back as "Not Superman 72.205.253.126".
Ultimatum : I was doing some searching about and I clicked on a link to a particular discussion page and ' Sorry, this discussion is private' came up, I've never had this before and I was wondering why this is?
Madrugada: It would help if you'd identify the page.
Ultimatum https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=9crt9khnxvo50sy9bp8arurs&page=1
Fast Eddie: That's on the mod board.
Unknown Troper: Bias Steamroller examples. I'm sorry, but I don't really see the point.
Madrugada: What about them?
Unknown Troper: What about them is that it's primarily thinly-veiled Complaining. I can see how the page is kept, but I don't understand why examples can go.
Madrugada They've been cleaned up. Examples on Bias Steamroller should be cases where the critic has essentially said "I don't like this [genre, convention, style, etc.] and therefore I will slam any work that uses it, simply because the work uses it."
Chabal 2: The icon for Synopsis is the same as Trivia, is that normal? Also, how do you fix images thzt don't show up (something involving typing static)?
Madrugada: For the images that don't show up, you need to change the url of the image from http://tvtropes... to http://static.tvtropes...
Chabal 2: Done, thanks.
josh6243: should I remove this from Horrible.Anime or not?
Chabal 2: I wanted to make a page for the new Robin Hood movie, but Robin Hood redirects to the Disney version. Since Robin Hood also links to it, how/can I go about getting the Robin Hood to refer to the 2010 film?
Maso Tey: Robin Hood and Robin Hood seem to be seperate pages, rather than one being a redirect to the other, meaning Robin Hood is redundant anyway and could be used for the new movie. Of course some links would have to be changed, plus there's a risk of losing information if the pages aren't identical, though they seem pretty close. Alternately, it could go under Robin Hood 2010.
Madrugada: the Film/RobinHood page should simply be a list of the various films; each one should have its own page in the Film/ namespace, differentiated somehow (by Lead actor would be my suggestion , so the latest one would be RobinHood-Crowe.)
Mr Death: Then again, how many of the films are just called "Robin Hood" without a subtitle or other title? (Also, you don't need to ptitle RobinHood-Crowe.)
Paul A: It looks like Disney.RobinHood was cloned from Film.RobinHood only a couple of days ago, and there have been no changes to Film.RobinHood since then that haven't also been made to Disney.RobinHood.
On the title question: IMDB lists eight films with the exact title Robin Hood: the Crowe, the Fairbanks, the Disney (which is an argument against using the lead actor for disambiguation — who would see RobinHood-Bedford and think "Ah, the Disney version"?), two 1910s silent films, two short cartoons, and a 1998 short film I've never heard of. (The Flynn is The Adventures of Robin Hood.) Also four TV movies, if those count: the Bergin, a Rich Little-plays-everybody, an animated, and a Finnish (both "made in Finland" and "in Finnish").
Maso Tey: There remains the possibility of treating the films sequentially on a single page (excluding those with slightly different titles, as well as the Disney, which is nicely tucked away in its own namespace). But if each film is to have its own page, disambiguated in the title, surely years are the way to go. Years are completely objective (as is actor-disambiguation in this case — but not in all cases!); they are all about equally memorable (sidestepping the Robin Hood-Bedford problem); and they're already being used on this wiki (e.g., Flash Forward 2009).
Chabal 2: Okay, launching as Robin Hood 2010 then.
Marq FJA: Pretty Smart For A Hottie, which has been cut some long while ago for ill-defined nature and not having gone through a proper YKTTW process, still shows up on Index-Index and in the index bar(s) of several tropes (e.g. Good-Looking Privates). Something needs to be done.
Mr Death: Just out of curiosity, why're demotivators suddenly banned?
Trigger Loaded: Madrugada and Fast Eddie explain the primary reasons here. EDIT: Earlier, Madrugada explains that it's only the Demotivator style that's being purged. You're allowed to take out the actual image in the demotivator and apply the text as a caption.
Madrugada: Vandal is back. A Mere Servantof God 12.180.26.106 has run his bowdlerizer script on May 18th. The damage has been fixed.
Tnu1138: I'm a bit confused on the proper usage of This Troper. where and when is it meant to be used?
Trigger Loaded: In short: Never. For Troper Tales, use your own handle. In the actual Trope or Work pages, make the changes, don't add Natter and Justifying Edits, and you don't need to personally attest to it.
This Troper heartily agrees, in This Troper's opinion it was overused far too much.
Maso Tey: Perhaps it's going a bit far to deprecate the use of This Troper in Troper Tales. Personally, I use it there because I wish to share my experiences without linking people back to my user page all the time; my identity does not seem very important there, and I don't see that my tales gain anything from being linked to it. And quite a lot of other people pothole their user names under This Troper, perhaps for similar reasons. It is, at worst, a harmless affectation; at best, it actively works to keep ego out of the wiki.
Micah: Even if you don't want to link your username in Troper Tales, why not just say "I"?
Maso Tey: Because — though admittedly it varies from page to page — third person seems to be a convention here. It's a convention I like for some reason, so I have no problem with perpetuating it.
Morgan Wick: What's up with the descriptions next to the icons for WMG, Just Bugs Me, and the like?
Trigger Loaded: New changes so the icons are more noticeable and user-friendly. Most people seem to like them, as noted in this forum topic.
Jordan: I was wondering about the Paul Robinson quotes on some pages. I see he made himself the page quote for No Party Like a Donner Party and the Turner Diaries, and when I was going to make this comment in the past, the same was true for True Art Is Offensive (now his quote is merely on the quotes page). I've always been bothered by his entry-pimping, so I wondered about deleting those quotes, or at least moving them to the quotes page instead.
Madrugada: I moved it to the Quotes page, more because it's confusing than because it was self-pimping.
Jordan: Thanks. I also see Fast Eddie removed the quote from the Turner Diaries page (and made further fixes).
Fast Eddie: Yeah, Paul Robinson copied in his own blog post on the topic, then quoted himself. Little ego situation, there. No problem with people promoting their work. Promoting yourself, though ... tacky.
Larfleeze: Would anyone care to stop by the John Cena page? There's a bit of an edit war going on and if I'm in the wrong I'd like to know. I don't think I am but these two guys (67.64.118.31) and (58.168.56.45) keep deleting a CMOA entry for a really bad reason that they can't back up.
Madrugada: Since Crowning Moments are by definition subjective, they're rarely worth fighting over on a a works page. Better to move it to the appropriate Crowning Moments Page, in this case, Professional Wrestling. Since there are already 4 entries, moving all of them would be a very wise choice.
The One Who Tropes: me, Some New Guy and a number of others have been deleting a quite offensive comment on the Dragon Age page by a Troper who calls themself Heart. And they keep putting it back up. "Only a video game" doesn't justify the negative vindictiveness of that comment.
Jerrik: Heart seems to have moved the comment to the Just Bugs Me page. So problem solved, I guess?
melloncollie: Not sure what the heck is going on in this Avatar review
, wasn't sure if I should report it. I'm kinda wishing that this sort of idiocy doesn't repeat itself elsewhere.
blackcat: Oh boy oh boy oh boy, I think it needed to be reported because I hate seeing that kind of stuff too. The review is not great but the comments are worse.
Madrugada: Thank you for reporting it. It's looks like the review was considerably more bitter and bile-filled at first, but it has been rewritten. I've deleted all the comments. The review is subjective, but then, reviews are.
Mr Death: We've got a desperate, deluded shipper
Single Issue Wonking about the Official Couple of Final Fantasy VII. So far every single edit except one that s/he has made has been trying to enforce the officially shot down Cloud/Aerith ship. Anything we can do about this?
LimeTH: Is there a page detailing how to add pictures to trope pages?
blackcat: Have you looked at Images In Wiki Pages?
Fast Eddie: Edit ban installed.
Some New Guy: Can we please ban Tabris Macbeth? Literally all of his edits have been shoving his warped opinions on the pages and insulting those who disagree.
blackcat: I am curious, where are all of his edits? His edit page is blank.
Paul A: Here. Although his contributor page is Tabris Macbeth, his editor name is Tabris_Macbeth.
blackcat Ahhhh. Yep. That's a problem.
Glowsquid: For examples of what Some New Guy said, there's his edits here and here (a bit further down the history).
blackcat: I think that the "Edit ban installed" note from Fast Eddie on the entry above this one was actually in response to this notice. It makes no sense up there, but I wasn't going to move it. (He doesn't exactly scare me but I won't poke him with a stick either.)
Madrugada: Vandalism alert: A Mere Servant Of God 12.180.26.106; Bowdlerizing.
Fast Eddie: Block installed.
- Tnu1138: why are some namespace's not properly linked? Crowning Moments, Funny, Fetish Fuel, WMG, Just Bugs Me /Film, they are all properly linked to the main articles that share rthe name. but for example Literature is nowhere to be fou ndon such bars
ninjacrat: There's some edit warrior at Umineko no Naku Koro ni who is persistently making very... strange edits. I've done my best to explain how the spoiler/non-spoiler split works and why some of the things they're requesting don't make much sense, but it doesn't seem to getting through.
Komodin: The user, Kahran042, just tried to blank the Real Women Never Wear Dresses page, for a poorly explained resaon.
Fast Eddie: IP block installed. That page is chock full of natter, though. Some excision is needed.
randomguy9: Someone at IP address 208.65.83.84 blanked the page for Felarya.
Meta Four: It seems that the javascript or something is not working right with Firefox. Folders and hottips won't expand (in the wiki; the hottips in the forum work fine), and the buttons like "New Edits" at the top of the page won't work. This only started happening today, after that period where the pages took forever to load. Again, this is just with Firefox 3.6.3 on a Mac; I'm not having these problems with Safari.
Paul A: For what it's worth, I'm not having any trouble in Firefox 3.0.11 on a PC.
Fast Eddie: Clear the cache. Sounds like you have a corrupted copy of the main javascript file.
Meta Four: It's working now.
Dying Will Kirby: I want to change the title for the page of a series to one of its redirects. This is because the current title isn't actually the name of the series in any form. More can be seen at this forum page
. How exactly would I go about changing a title? I thought I'd ask here, since no one's been answering in the forums.
Citizen: Click the wiki links to each redirect, click the "Redirected from" links at the top right to edit them, copy the page over, change all redirects (and the original page) to point to new destination, and use the related links search (change the URL to point to each page) to find and correct all links, as appropriate. And that's only after you're sure you've gotten agreement on the change.
Mullon: How come the indexes don't appear at the bottom of the Sponge Bob Squarepants page?
Cryptic Mirror: The article is on a redirect from the link on the Western Animation index.
Mullon: Oh. Is there a way to fix it?
Maso Tey: Out of curiosity, why is it a ptitle?
blackcat: Fixed. I think it is a ptitle because of the internal capitalization in the name. The markup is [[{ptitle}} name of trope]] when formatting
Rogue 7: I really shouldn't have to be asking questions like this after, what, 2+ years on this wiki...
How do you excise a redirect? I'm attempting to split up the Shin Megami Tensei character sheets, and a lot of them already have redirects (Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne, Persona 4, etc) to the main Shin Megami Tensei page. Trying to manually enter the page into the URL bar doesn't work.
Cryptic Mirror: Just go to the original page and click on the redirect information it's a link that'll take you to the edit page screen of the redirected link. If you see what I mean.
Rogue 7: Well, don't I feel stupid. Thanks.
HalfLight: I am new to Wiki Editing and have been searching around the forum for instructions on how to create a FanFic page to add to the Troper Works page. I think I've got it right, but I want to be sure. I think that I have to add the link first, and then click on that Red Link and start editing the page. Is this correct? Thank you!
ETA: How exactly do I add my Trope Page to the Contributors index? I've looked for the edit button, but I couldn't find one.
Fast Eddie. Right. Make a link like FanFic.Fic Title and click that bad boy. Off you go. Be sure to add the title to the Troper Works index. Same deal for your contributor page, but even simpler. Click this one: Tropers.Half Light and fill that dude out. Look on the Tools menu at the left for the "set page type" button when you are done. Set that page to "contributor." The system will pick that it is a contributor page, add you to the list, and mark your page with the contributor banner.
Half Light: So I can create the link anywhere? I don't have to create it in a specific place? Got it. Thank you!
Trigger Loaded: A troper named Libris (80.9.169.210) created the page Jaufre Rudels Syndrome. He did place it in YKTTW, but then launched it without waiting for a reply at all. That's not the bad part. He's now guarding the page by keeping it perpetually locked out, and is reverting grammar edits. Probably feels he owns the page.
macroscopic: Found a spammer with the handle srakonda.
Edit: also 117.199.182.26.
Fast Eddie: Blocks installed. Thanks for the heads up.
I'm a lazy ass and Unknown Troper who doesn't feel like
blackcat: It would be helpful if you provided a link to the problem page.
Madrugada: He's talking about the forums. And to be brutally honest, if he's unwilling to get known so he can take part in the forums, his opinions on how they should be run are utterly without value.
blackcat: True dat.
Some Sort Of Troper: So UT 97.88.244.78 keeps using this page Feltbeat for what looks like a sandbox. Since they are an Unknown Troper I can't PM them, another other method to point them in the direction of the Wiki Sandbox.
Leanan: If someone's disrupting mini-roleplays in the Forum Games by ignoring both forum rules and gently-given advice? What do we do? Both mods and admonitions from myself have been sent to the person in question, so what do I do?
Cryptic Mirror: For some reason the fanfic reccomendations
page image linky thing for The Chronicles Of Narnia isn't showing up on the main page, how can I fix this?
Fast Eddie: It needs to match on the title. FanficRecs.Narnia doesn't match Main.The Chronicles Of Narnia. Moving the recco content to FanficRecs.The Chronicles Of Narnia will do the trick.
Cryptic Mirror: Ah, ta muchly. All tided up now.
^_^: What exactly stops Omnipresent Tropes from being People Sit On Chairs kind of redundant? If we've Seen It A Million Times as it says in the description, doesn't pointing it out make it unremarkable because of its prevalence in stories?
Madrugada: Tropes are conventions used in storytelling to get some sort of information across to the audience. Omnipresent tropes are those conventions that are very difficult to avoid completely and still tell a story. People Sit On Chairs aren't storytelling conventions at all; they're just things that are normal to have happen. Everyone sits on chairs; making a character sit on a chair doesn't help tell the story at all. If, on the other hand, the chair or the way the character sits in it does add information for the audience, it becomes a trope, like Slouch of Villainy, Cool Chair, Super Wheelchair, or a Chair Reveal.
Does that answer your question?
^_^: Yes it does!
Tnu1138: why does Stealth Pun redirect to Incredibly Lazy Pun? Wouldn't it be assumed that a Stealth Pun would require some skill and effort while a Lazy Pun would just be a cop out for leaving the joke unfinished for the audience to figure it out
Fighteer: This was done based on a forum discussion, as the tropes were being used interchangeably on the wiki.
Some Sort Of Troper: You mean "why does Incredibly Lazy Pun redirect to Stealth Pun?" Well the trope was previsouly under the name Incredibly Lazy Pun but it was renamed because the laziness was making people think of Incredibly Lame Pun. In fact Incredibly Lame Pun only exists because of that mistake. When tropes are renamed, the old name is kept around as a redirect for when people use it accidentally later on.
However the exception to that is when the old name is potentially confusing and damaging even as a redirect which is exactly what it happening with Incredibly Lazy Pun so I think we're going to have to Cut List this one.
Unknown Troper: At the bottom of Pokémon's Crowning Music page, only the index link to Anime, but not Video Games appears. On Pokemon [without an accent] it still appears despite removing both the <<||>> and changing the Index on CrowningMusic/Video Games. Any suggestions? And I hope this was in coherent English.
Also, how do you add something to Index-Index?
blackcat From what I understand the <<||>> indexing markup is obsolete and doesn't matter any more. Go to the index that you want the article to appear on and put the page on the list. Sometimes you have to reset the page type to index even if it already says index. I think I read somewhere (maybe the forum?) that the Index-Index automatically updates on a routine basis.
Unknown Troper: Okay, that may sort out the Index-Index bit, but, I moved everything from CrowningMusic/Pokemon to CrowningMusic/Pokémon, changing the index links accordingly. The link to the Anime subsection of Crowning Music of Awesome appears at the bottom, but not to Video Games (which, with the redirect turned off, still appears on Pokemon [without the é], even though nothing links there apart from this very page). It's not important or vital, it's just that I can't tell what's wrong.
I already put the link on the indexes and it's showing up one on its page, but not the other.
blackcat I just checked the page type for CrowningMusic/Video Gamesand the page type was set as a Just For Fun bit. I changed it to index and everything is fine now. Because the page was set as a Just For Fun bit, it isn't recognized as an index. To set a page type pull down the Tools menu and near the bottom is a button that says Page Type.
arromdee: Please do a global substitution replacing LegionOfSuperHeroes with {{Legion Of Super-Heroes}}, because of the rename. There are over 400 wicks to change manually, and I don't think making this substitution could cause any problems.
Looney Toons: ...When did Lolicon get locked? Geeze, you turn your back for five minutes... <grin> Anyway, I had an external link I wanted to add, potholing the phrase "well into their twenties
" (actually I wanted to change that to "twenties and beyond"). The link is perfectly legal and pretty much SFW — it's to footage from a Japanese "beauty contest" for mothers wearing their daughters' school uniforms; none of them are under 30 but you'd be hard-pressed to guess their actual ages. Perhaps one of the admins might make the edit, please?
Triassicranger:
Flying V: This is uncutlistable https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItJustBugsMe/ptitleuv6m2sgz
Mr Death: Can we get some sort of arbitration on the Dragonball Evolution page? Me and harkko are arguing about whether it's Pragmatic Adaptation. I say it is, because a lot of the changes are the result of the change in medium from anime/manga to American live-action film; which, as I understand it, is the definition of the trope. He says it isn't simply because the movie wasn't good.
JET73L: I say, use the descriptions of the Pragmatic Adaptation and Adaptation Decay examples on the page to reference each other, as well as the example of the trope itself ("Despite the adaptation decay, some things..." and "However, see 'Pragmatic Adaptation' above to explain or excuse some of the complaints", for example). We've done it before, and it seemed to help the times I've seen two tropes for a given work that many people think are mutually exclusive.
JET73L: Is or was there a Discussion search option (not necessarily discussion-only, but at least not excluding Discussions from the Recently Edited By or Content searches), and if there isn't, is there now a technical reason why we can't have one? I know it can be done by using the Google searchbar, but that doesn't seem to be particularly comprehensive, and it definitely isn't well-organized.
Paul A: There's something weird going on at You Know That Show — people are adding items, and they're showing up on the edit history as having been added, but they don't appear on the actual page.
blackcat I think the page may be too long and that those questions that have been answered should be deleted.
Maso Tey: Out of curiosity, is there a protocol for doing that?
Madrugada: Not really. Just do it and leave an edit reason of something like "Confirmed correct questions deleted because the page was too long and was breaking the software."
Maso Tey: Thanks. I'm going to go ahead and do that now. am an idiot for not looking at the page yet.
Madrugada: You aren't an idiot. I'm just faster than you.
Jordan: There's an edit war going on on the Misaimed Fandom page.
Thespacephantom: How do I make a page of my own? And for that matter, how do I shot web?
blackcat: Put curly{{ }} brackets around your name ( I did it for you) and then click on the red link and edit your page. No idea about the other question.
Thespacephantom: Thanks.
Willbyr: Someone with the IP 71.114.193.200 keeps removing specific comments from Neon Genesis Evangelion. It's been done six times now as of April 10th, and reverted each time. Can we get an IP block going?
Fast Eddie: Block installed.
Maso Tey: What page type should be assigned to pages about radio stations or TV networks?
Fast Eddie: Creator.
Chabal2: Is there some kind of policy on tropes that consists of a specific archetype meeting another? (I'm thinking of putting sailors who are also The Alcoholic through YKTTW, but if I can avoid The Same But More and X Meets Y replies in advance, so much the better).
Fighteer: There's no absolute policy that I'm aware of, but in general it's not something we encourage unless the combination of the two tropes adds something that wasn't there already. In other words, are there any examples that would go on the combined trope that would not also fit on both the other ones? If not, it's probably not a distinct trope. (Edit: That's just me, though. Feel free to YKTTW it.)
Cave Troll With A Beard: Are we allowed to create story pages for our own stories? I want to make one for a original story I'm in the process of writing that'll probably end up on fictionpress or something, just so I can solidify in my mind what tropes and such I want to use. Is that allowed?
Triassicranger: Well, there is Troper Works for your own stories. Or Unpublished Works if you haven't written your story yet.
Cave Troll With A Beard: Thanks!
Madrugada Vandal at large: gregitaly 72.213.48.123. Hates the thought of Ho Yay between Kirk And Spock, deleted the page image on Ho Yay despite admin note to leave it alone. Also took out references to Ho Yay and the entire Fan Fiction Folder on Bitch in Sheep's Clothing. Openly stated his intent to remove all references to Kirk/Spock Ho Yay in this forum post.
Fast Eddie: IP block installed.
Micah: Sieglinde has twice blanked Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offences without giving any edit reason.
Fast Eddie: Block installed.
Feinoha: Where do I propose creation of articles for Games/Anime/Manga etc that do not yet have there own article? Do I use YKTTW or is there some other place to do so?
Unknown Troper: You don't. You can just add it right away. Works pages don't need a YKTTW.
Jordan: I just made some edits to Character Filibuster and those at the bottom of the page don't seem to be showing up. I've had this kind of thing happen before and don't know what's wrong with my formatting.
Micah: The wiki software doesn't like external links with certain characters in them (including %, which was in your wikipedia link). I don't think there's a fix, per se; the only workaround I know of is to find an address for what you want that doesn't have any problematic characters in it. In this case "Alo Presidente" is a wikipedia redirect to the page you want, so I fixed it by linking to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alo_Presidente.
Jordan: Thanks.
Sunny V: On the fora, I have an avatar from the Lunaii dollmaker site. How do I make it so that it looks less small?
Glowsquid: The maximum size for an avatar on the forum is 100x100 pixels. You might want to crop your avatar in MS Paint or some online image resizing site.
Tokuiten: How does one deal with a particularly annoying bluenose? TMR (76.22.36.95) has been intermittently bluenosing the Kamen Rider Double article; he stopped for a while (unfortunally, all his older bluenosing is no longer in the history), but he's back with a vengeance; he just got on my last nerve by turning an example of Badass Biker into a Pot Hole reading "Badboy Biker" (April 14, 03:07 PM). Also, a very large amount of his edits consist of him pushing his own personal Spell My Name With An S on everyone; he's done it in too many articles to count, he's edit warred over it and inserted Fan Dumb-ish statements like "some of us don't accept the official spellings", and he's even changed actors' names away from the spellings the actors themselves use (I remember seeing him do it on Kamen Rider Den-O). At least he doesn't fill talk pages here with personal attacks over it like he does on The Other Wiki.
Ethereal Mutation: Some user called "wikiporn" has been maintaining an Edit War on the Video Games page over a contested entry. S/he refuses to discuss the contested entry and basically has the attitude of "fuck it; you have to tire out eventually" (as evidenced by the comment line).
Dialga X: codenamehunterwolf (144.131.42.33) is doing the same thing. I suspect it may be "wikiporn".
Glowsquid: codenamehunterwolf doesn't seem to be a sockuppet (he edited way before wikiporn), from the look of the comment he left and the discussion page, it seems s/he thought it was about the Uwe Boll movie and not the videogame,
Triassicranger: Motion to block IP address 38.127.225.193 for repeatedly removing an entry without stating resons from the So Bad Its Horrible Anime page. Hence vandalism.
Triassicranger: Extending motion to IP address 74.82.57.103 for the same reason.
Wild Knight: There is an edit war going on, mostly between DEFCON1 and Evilest_Tim, on the Modern Warfare page over Space Does Not Work That Way, which Evilest_Tim converted from Wall Banger when someone originally posted that complaint on the main page. Quite frankly, I don't even care which side wins anymore, just someone please put a stop to someone.
Fast Eddie: Block installed on DEFCON 1.
Glowsquid: IP 146.57.84.39, the guy who keep getting in edit wars on the That Guy With The Glasses, has made an edit
on Orwellian Editor bitching about other tropers. If someone could deal with this guy, it'd be great.
josh6243: On the subject, 146.57.84.39 put this. **On the subject, the fact that the entire Sidekicks review is filled to the brim with not-so-Stealth Insults aimed at both Mako and his fans makes it in arguably worse taste than his original, unintentional joke, due to the fact that he can no longer use the "I didn't know" excuse.
Is this fact or not?
lee4hmz: I've seen that episode several times now; what the IP here is talking about is a Running Gag in the episode where the Critic is lavishing over-the-top praise on Mako. And then Mako has Chuck Norris zap him at the end for making fun of him.
Cassius335: "Screw The Rules, I Have Plot!" needs renaming (due to the title having nothing to do with the trope), but I daren't put it through the Trope Repair Shop again, because the last time it was, the forumites badly misinterpreted it. Suggestions?
Madrugada: Last time, you were the only person supporting your particular interpretation of it. If you want to try again, take it to Trope Repair and come up with some stronger reasons to support your interpretation. Trope Repair is where rename are discussed. There is no other option except admin fiat.
Chabal 2: How far back do the respective histories for page edits, YKTT Ws and YKTTW launches go? Also, i could have sworn there was a page for X Is The New Y, but nothing shows up. Am I having hallucinations due to the Tetris Effect?
Fighteer: The histories go until someone (usually Fast Eddie) runs a cleanup script. I don't know if this is automated or not. As for X Is The New Y, it may have been cut at some point, but I just recently replied in Lost And Found to someone who was looking for it.
Zadia: Could someone please tell me why the alternative titles are now at the bottom of a page instead of at the top?
Glowsquid: It spun off from this TRS discussion. Some pages have way too many redirects and that bury the lead, so Fast Eddie though of changing it to the bottom.
Zadia: Right, thanks.
Glowsquid:Some guy is edit warring (first as an anon, then under the name "wikiporn") on the video game subpage of So Bad Its Horrible. He keep adding the same entry with his reason being "It's the worst game I own on my Xbox 360!" despite the fact that it has been contested before and removed by several different editors, and he refuse to discuss on the talkpage. He doesn't seem to be too disruptive on other pages, though.
Glowsquid:... And as of April 11th, the edit war is still ongoing. Wikiporn has still completely failed to go on the Discussion page despite being asked to do so.
Glowsquid: wikiporn is still up to his business.
Komodin: I've requested, multiple times, in the "Edit Reasons" textbox that he should visit the discussion page to talk over what to do with the example. He won't relent. He just won't let up. Something should seriously be done about his Single-Issue Wonk.
Morgan Wick: Pretty Smart For A Hottie appears in the index listing of several pages (like Hot Chick with a Sword), but doesn't seem to actually exist when I go to the page.
Citizen: Ultra Super Death Gore Fest Chainsawer 3000 has an excessive number of redirects. Am I missing the joke here, or can we get prune the list a bit?
The Gunheart: In this thread, Eric DVH is apparently threatening to rewrite Old-School Dogfighting. Given how it's already a perfectly good article and, according to the discussion, he's apparently one of the users who previously used the article as a soap box for his views on fighters in general, I thought I might should bring it to attention.
{{Madrugada}: We don't do pre-emptive strikes. If he changes it for the worse, THEN bring it back here.
macroscopic: Got a spambot with the handle 'downloadtvshow' hitting YKTTW here.
Komodin: The spambot made an 'account', consisting of nothing but links to presumably suspect sites. Even made a "review" of South Park, which is more of an advertisement of its "site" than anything. Something should be done about this, methinks.
Fast Eddie: Hard block installed.
macroscopic: Someone at 124.183.247.208 has been vandalizing John Cena (edit history). Some of his cries of "troll" and claims to "neutrality" are pretty ironic.
Dialga X: The Pokemon Mystery Dungeon High Octane Nightmare Fuel and Nightmare Fuel debate has been cleaned up but can someone delete the Nightmare Fuel icon on the page? I made it redirect to the High Octane page in a probably misguided attempt to stop people from shifting the content of the HONF page to the NF page and vice-versa.
macroscopic: I've put it on the cutlist. The icon shows up automatically when there's a page there, even if it's just a redirect.
Cryptic Mirror: Hi, sorry, possibly a silly question. But I've noticed that the Canon Defilement trope is being treated as "it's different, it sucks" and Better Than Canon is "it's better so it rocks", surely these pages should be moved to the Darth and Sugar sections of the site? Canon Defilement isn't even marked as subjective (although the Better Than Canon one is at least), at the very least they are both subjective?
Dying Will Kirby: At one point, I had added a picture (a character who I thought exemplified the trope) to a trope page that had no picture. Later, I found the picture had been deleted under the grounds that it was Just A Face And A Caption. What exactly are you guys looking for in a trope image?
Mr Death: Generally, something that illustrates the trope, without needing foreknowledge of the series from which the picture was taken; they only "exemplify the trope" if you know who they are, and what they did, for a start.
Fast Eddie: Stop by the Image Pickin' Forum and get some folks involved in the choice.
Dying Will Kirby: So essentially, I should just look for an example from an already extremely known and popular source, as opposed to trying to expose people to new things?
Madrugada No, you look for a picture that works because of what anyone can see when they look at it whether they know anything about the character or work at all or not; not what it shows if you already know the character and the work it's from. If the work is obscure or lesser-known, the picture is going to have to be very clearly a depiction of the trope. And the threads in the Image Pickin' forum is a good place to see what generally makes a good page image and what doesn't.
Archaic Chaos: Just wondering, what's the standard procedure for proposing page quotes? Should I take it to the discussion page or just add it on?
Fast Eddie: Just do it. Careful, though. One page quote is usually plenty. One short page quote. The idea is to introduce the article, then get out of the way.
Archaic Chaos: Thanks a bunch.
Unknown Troper: I can't see the images for adding to discussion page (the funny letters) at all now. Is this a common problem? And I am aware the solution is to "get known then".
blackcat By funny letters do you mean the captcha?
No idea. Maybe? The point is is that there's a box for writing in, but no image visible.
Fast Eddie: That's fixed.
The same Unknown Troper, no really, don't be fooled by the different IP: Late thanks.
Mr Death: Syera keeps putting an entry into Gone Horribly Right that basically amounts to stating "The Bible is all lies" as if it's objective fact. I don't want to cause a huge edit war that takes up the whole page history, so if someone could step in that'd be great.
Jordan: Someone's been deleting Transformers Kiss Players from the So Bad Its Horrible Anime page. Since the series is pretty widely agree to fit and deleting it is basically equivalent to wearing a sign saying "I'm a Lolicon", I'd like to think that deleting that entry is a banable offence.
Triassicranger: I would like to second Jordan's motion. I've been checking the IP addresses deleting it recently and both have come up as suspected network sharing devices, hence it's very possible it's one guy behind a proxy, the same guy who started doing it months ago. As an aside, most (if not all) of the IP addresses have been through communications companies. Curious. Basically — block.
Triassicranger: On that note, motion to block IP address 38.127.225.193 for said action. Repeatedly.
Triassicranger: Is there any reason why the Darth Wiki and Sugar Wiki have turned white, or is my Mac faulty?
Wild Knight: deltanine keeps removing the quotes on the Sonic The Hedgehog 2006 page and, instead of complaining in the edit reason box, is replacing those quotes with things along the lines of "I said I want those profane quotes gone! STOP PUTTING THEM BACK!" On the main page. Perhaps the quotes are in fact too profane for a game like Sonic, but this seems to me like a Bluenose Bowdlerizer of the worst kind. If an edit block is too much, is there anything else we can do?
Fast Eddie: I moved the quotes to the Quotes.Sonic The Hedgehog 2006 page. They aren't a good opening for the article.
Citizen: Deltanine had a point. I'd have removed them, too.
Mr Death: A point on the profanity, perhaps. Acting like he/she had some sort of authority (the whole, "I said I wanted these gone!" thing), and making threats, on the other hand, are way out of line, especially on the main page.
Wild Knight: Pretty much; honestly, when it started getting bad I wanted to throw the quotes back in just to spite him/her and the, quite frankly, amateurish wiki-editing. Thanks for the action, Fast Eddie.
Zadia: I was on the Telephone page and I saw that Everyone Remembers the Stripper is suddenly gone. I checked the list of recent cuts and didn't see it there. What happened?
Ultimatum Its now called "Everybody Remembers the Stripper
Zadia: Thanks.
Wemmblyhogg: I see the 'No items, Fox only, Final Destination' SSB meme on this wiki a lot, and while I get the items and location bits, can someone explain why Fox is specified? I've never played either of the SSB games, and I'm curious to understand the meme.
Glowsquid: Fox is top tier (ie: He's generally considered to be the best character for tournaments) in Melee, which has a big tournament scene.
Wemmblyhogg: So is it referring to an SHFG saying he will only play Fox, or he will only play if you play Fox?
Citizen: A google search for the phrase would have told you that the phrase means that everyone is only playing as Fox.
Tangent 128: 76.19.181.198 was just observed deleting random words, syllables and punctuation from Phineas and Ferb.
Some New Guy: User drussillaHysteric has been deleting several entries concerning the Whateley Universe from several pages, including Complete Monster, Crazy Awesome and Gone Horribly Right, and refuses to give any explanation. Can someone do something, please? EDIT: He/she's at it again. Will someone please do something?
The One Who Tropes: I've had to clear up this as well. Please do something about this.
Komodin: It appears this "drusillaHysteric" person is at it again. Someone really should do something about this guy's Single-Issue Wonk towards the Whateley Universe.
Fast Eddie: Block installed. Should be safe to return the deletions.
josh6243: Are you sure you guys can look at 146.57.84.39 and block him/her because he/she does not follow the rules? He/she is at it again.
Not sure I did the right thing, but after looking at the Tales Of The Abyss article I removed what looked like a debate on the meaning of the game's ending. Could someone check it over thanks.
blackcat: Woah, it looks like the worst kind of Natter. I see you put down your reason on and that never hurts. In the future if you are doubtful about removing something you can always move it to the discussion pages.
UltimatumSince the Original Life page seems to be attracting problems,can it be locked?
Citizen: When did "Manga & Anime" become the "official category"
, instead of some variant of "Anime & Manga"?
blackcat: See forum discussion here.
josh6243: Unknown troper 82.141.80.189 is vandalizing the Atop The Fourth Wall page. The vandalism is almost removed; should we block him/her because there should not be a repeat vandalism?
The Gunheart: Got another one on the Original Life page. Not as vitriolic as the last one, but taking out valid critisisms and calling Hatedom on the more obvious problems. Their IP is 174.114.231.69.
Fast Eddie: Edit block installed.
macroscopic: I feel a little redundant pointing this out, but someone with the handle "aldona" has been spamming porn links — one forum post thumped by Madrugada and at least two discussion pages: Sibling Tropes and Brother–Sister Incest, which was thumped by Fast Eddie. Pointing it out in case no-one realized he was a repeat offender.
Madrugada Since (s)he's doing it more than just the one forum link I caught, I'll add a forum ban. Don't need that crap.
Fast Eddie: Full-on access block installed.
ninjacrat: We've a uniquely singleminded spammer at lar789 203.177.239.165.
Fast Eddie:Block Installed
Mr Death: A jackass at 64.107.1.217 is replacing whole pages with a single line saying things like "ura fag".
Fast Eddie:Block Installed
JET 73 L: I'm sorry if this seems stupid, but is there something specific required to make an Alternate Title show up at the top of the page when following an alt-titled link, or does that just happen automatically with redirects now? Neither the Editing Overview nor Text-Formatting Rules pages say how, and I did not find the answer in my alternate titles bar search.
Fast Eddie: It's automagic.
JET 73 L: Sorry, I don't seem to be getting what the problem is (see WMG/MakingMoney for an example of what I'm not trying to do). See how the page to which it is redirected says "Going Postal"? I want to know what was done to make, for example, Suzumiya Haruhi and The Melancholy Of Haruhi Suzumiya to show up as the respective page titles for the same page accessed by different links, and what I'm doing (a basic redirect) isn't working for that. It just... redirects.
Fast Eddie: There was a bug in making the magic happen for WMG. That's fixed, now.
Cryptic Mirror: Someone keeps removing The Return from the Complete Monster page based just on it being a fanfic series, although the character in question is an OC and frankly the series is closer to original fiction. I've put the example back again, but I don't want to get into an edit war over it, especially on an emotionally charged page like Complete Monster. Can anything be done? Edit: The same fate seems to befall the Whateley Universe entry, but I don't know enough about that -verse to judge whether that entry should be reinstated.
Cryptic Mirror (again, sorry): This just wont go away, troper drusillaHysteric 69.204.156.90 is still deleting the Whatley Universe section from the page no reasons given either in the history or discussion page. I've put it back one more time.
Looney Toons: Not strictly a question, but... the Trope Title Generator
appears to be broken.
Dying Will Kirby: I've got two questions: one basic one that I should have figured out by now, and a more advanced one.
1. How do I make a contributor page? Is it different from my profile? 2. I've made edits prior to registering on this site. Is there a way that I can transfer my old edits into my editing history once I've made a contributor page?
Thank you.
Ronka87: You make a contributor's page by turning your name a redlink (like the one above me), clicking it, and editing. Add the name to The Contributors, and set the page type to "contributor" (the tool for that is at the bottom of the "Tools" sidebar).
As for edits, that's a bit more complicated. As far as I know, you can't "transfer" edits— the edits you made as an Unknown Troper will be viewable by your IP, but not by your handle. If you want to see the edits you made back then, punch your IP address into the "find edits by troper" function (also the bottom of Tools). But that's the past, anyway— you'll make plenty of new edits with your new handle. Recording individual edits isn't really a big deal, and anything you want to keep track of you can add to your Watchlist.
Crackers N Cheese: I seem to recall a page that would let you edit your spoiler viewing options but I cannot find it now. Could someone please provide a link?
Wild Knight: Either a widespread Drive By Editor really needs to update their encoding or something weird is going on with a lot of "special characters" all over the site, e.g. the accented e (that I'm currently incapable of typing on this keyboard) in Pokemon keeps getting rendered as ?leading to "Pok?n". Could someone provide a clue as to which one it is?
Paul A: Looks like a character encoding problem: the special characters are in Unicode, but the pages are being served in Latin-1. (If you go to your browser's View menu and insist on viewing the page in Unicode, the problem disappears.) How it happened, and what's required to fix it, I leave to somebody familiar with the backstage areas of the wiki.
(PS. Looking in more detail, the server is specifying ISO-8859-1, but the actual HTML is specifying Latin1. If nothing else, they ought at least to be specifying the same thing.)
blackcat: See forum discussion here.
Fast Eddie: Okay. Discovered how it happened. Geeky stuff . Identified the fix, which will be run late tonight (23 MAR AM, that is).
Shadow Darkman: I remember finding a link that allowed me to create a page when the tips I read about wouldn't work, but I can't remember where it was. Someone help me?
spike12: IP adress#75.140.224.90 is making some rather rude comments in the page history section of the Whale Wars page over my edits in the epic fail section,and the removal of the unfortunate implications section( it has nothing to do with the show),and is kinda making it no fun to either visit,or edit.
Fast Eddie: Block installed and further off-topic material removed.
Madrugada: How handy. That solves the problem on the Animal Wrongs Group page (right below this report) as well.
spike12: Thanks.
Mr Death: Absurdist is perpetuating an edit war on Animal Wrongs Group. He keeps editing the page to make people like the Animal Liberation Front (i.e., the guys who firebomb anyone who works on animals) look like heroes (changing "and kill real people" to "and save real animals", for example) and changing the page to reflect his ideology.
The Gunheart: We've got a vandal on the Original Life page. Their IP address is 71.125.233.206. They're just deleting things they don't agree with and throwing take thats at the users who posted them.
Fast Eddie: Edit block installed.
Paul A: Is there an easy-to-explain distinction between I Wish It Were Real and Comic Books Are Real?
Fighteer: That's a very good question, one which might be best raised on the forums, in Trope Repair Shop.
Chabal 2: Is it necessary to have some kind of concensus when creating a page for a Fan Fic, or is it being on the series' Fanfic Recs page considered enough? the one I'm thinking of is Double K
, which is on the Gurren Lagann Fanfic Recs page.
Micah: Works Pages Are A Free Launch.
Zadia: On the Cut List page, it says that to challenge a proposed cut, I need to hit the 'wait' button. Where exactly is the wait button?
Some Sort Of Troper: It's the big button that says "add discussion re:cut". The principle is in order to get a hold on a cut you have to add a discussion point not just click a button.
Zadia: Ah, I see. Thanks.
Jordan: 75.23.184.239 has been going through pages deleting any kind of explanation voicing feminist views giving edit reasons like "lol persecution complex" (paraphrased). I can see the point of a couple of those edits, but I'm inclined to revert them.
Fast Eddie; Edit block installed. Revert at will.
Korodzik: Whatever happened to Depression Fuel? Someone replaced it with two random words.
Fast Eddie: It was cut.
Ultimatum Was [AOD] banned?
Fast Eddie: Not by handle.
Dragon_Ranger: 192.225.128.3 is going through various pages and deleting/editing anything dealing with Jay Naylor (ie. mass deletions in the Better Days and Original Life pages). Most of the changes have been reversed already.
Elle: Ok, I decided I wanted to make redirects for the individual games in the Lunar series, but they're all ptitiles, i.e. Lunar: The Silver Star. I wouldn't mind except for the way they show up in the alt-title bar on the page. Is this fixable, or should I resign to making un-punctuated redirects?
Fighteer: Using ptitled redirects is ugly and is discouraged. They aren't really searchable anyway, so it's usually not worth bothering.
Triassicranger: If a certain IP address gets banned, does that mean a registered user cannot access this website via that IP address. For example, say I (logged in) try to access through a blocked IP e.g. 1.1.1.1 and it's blocked. Would I be able to get in or would I be unable to?
Fast Eddie: There are two levels of block. An edit-block will allow an IP address to read the wiki but not edit. A full block will disallow even reading the wiki.
Triassicranger: OK, I underdstand, thank you.
Madrugada: 94.170.133.65 is deleting opposing opinions on the Star Trek TOS
Wild Mass Guessing page.
Fast Eddie: Block installed. Big no-no.
josh6243: There is the guy Unknown Troper 146.57.84.39 who keeps putting Complaining natter about That Guy With The Glasses just because he does not like him. Can you block him/her because he/she is not contributing anything constructive to the article? I don't think this unknown troper can listen to reason. In fact, another troper considers this unknown troper to be a problem.
Utritum: I can get behind that one. Anytime someone tries to remove his nattery rants, he always tries to repost them under claims of being persecuted.
josh6243: The other troper (not the unknown troper) I was talking about has posted; can a mod please block the Unknown Troper 146.57.84.39?
Fast Eddie: I see post from the same address, but I don't see edit-warring. The posted example makes a point that seems to be supported. It edges toward opinion, but is not a rant.
Utritum: It is not the first time that troper have done this, which is why me and josh6243 are complaining. While his newest addition is somewhat substantial, he has previously cluttered up the page with overly long, angry and unconstructive rants and every time he was told to stop doing that, he would become angry and repost his rant while accusing the remover of trying to censor him.
josh6243: Here's the clutter Unknown Troper 146.57.84.39 made before Utritum (twice) and Fast Eddie removed it. [deleted by Fast Eddie]
Fast Eddie: We all have access to page history, thanks. We're watching the situation. Chill.:-)
josh6243: Sorry, man. What do you suggest in this situation?
Aminatep: When I open a sub-forum, I must wait for the full list of its lopics to load. Is there a way to bypass that and divide the topic list into several pages, as it's usually done on other fora?
Zadia: I was just on the Informed Flaw, Informed Ability and Informed Wrongness pages and I noticed that each of them is on multiple indexes, and only the first index is showing what pages come before and after it. Anyone know why?
Fast Eddie: They appear okay now. May have been a transient database overload issue.
Zadia: Thanks.
What advantages do I get for registering? Or better put is there anything a registered user can do that an unregisted user can't?
Fighteer: Getting Known means you can edit and launch articles without the CAPTCHA image verification. It means you can post in the forums. It means you can send and receive private messages. It also may have intangible benefits as regards your perception among other tropers. Edit: Yeah, and the watchlist. Thanks, Eddie, I had a brain fart.
Fast Eddie: Also, there are a lot of things on your watchlist which are cool to have.
josh6243: There is this unknown troper who thinks sticking his opinion on his That Guy With The Glasses page makes him important. Should we block him?
blackcat: Can you two work it out on the discussion page? I don't think that s/he understood the "This Troper must die" comment was referring to the use of the term This Troper.
Jonny D: (Rather than fill this page with the history, I've dropped that into a forum thread
since I wasn't sure where this question should go.)
Does anyone other than ninjacrat object to the Please Elaborate page? While several tropers spoke up on the Please Elaborate Discussion with their support of the tag as useful and expressed their wish to keep it, ninjacrat is the only opposition who contributed to the discussion and so the only opposition I am aware of.
If tropers in general or admins in particular feel that the inconvenience of Please Elaborate tags appearing on pages outweighs their usefulness, then I am happy to yield to the majority. However, if it turns out that there is actually only one troper who is in opposition, then there are several of us who would like to see it restored. I understand ninjarat's point of view, even though I disagree with it, and I would like to reach a compromise that would allow Please Elaborate to return.
blackcat: Ghost Battleship 205.170.21.67 is blanking pages. Dragon Quest Z started a thread about it on Wiki Talk and is restoring them.
Fast Eddie: Block installed.
Memorize Pi: Does anyone know how many tropes there are? I've been wanting to ask this for weeks (but couldn't decide where to put this).
Fighteer: From Itty Bitty Wiki Tools, the article count script might help. I don't think we have one specifically for page types, though.
Memorize Pi: No, that's just what I was looking for. Thanks.
Looney Toons: <blinks> <blinks again> Over sixty-two freaking thousand pages? No wonder I can't keep up with the site any more.
lebrel: You may also be interested in the page count by type tool: we currently have 17,643 pages marked as "trope".
Tokuiten: Not sure where to report Wiki Vandals, but Othinn recently vandalized Engine Sentai Go-onger at 9:27PM on 20 February, replacing all references to shows he doesn't like with "hack up". Checking his edit history, he did the same thing on Kamen Rider at 8:48AM on 19 January, so he's been grinding his axe for a while.
Fast Eddie: Block installed.
cg12345: What happened to How Did We Miss This One? Did that get zapped for any particular reason?
Madrugada: Made a non-punctuated redirect for it: How Did We Miss This One
Kizor: Dominic Deegan Discussion needs help. See, Dominic Deegan's readership is split: fans find it silly fun until their Suspension of Disbelief runs out, at which point many become snarkers and continue to enjoy it for its cheerful, inventive badness. The article goes for peaceful coexistence and generally succeeds. I've been the most active snarky editor, Mr Death either incredibly fair-minded or the most active fan.
Fawkes' valid (if **'d) snarky additions caused Drive By Editor (75.23.214.254) to jump in, do a flurry of edits, and unload on the poor guy on the discussion page. DBE's proven impossible. He decides what other people's motives are on the slightest of evidence, and sees goblins behind every tree. He's hostile, insulting, and overt in his conviction that Fawkes' article edits and talk page messages are deliberate lies. towards the comic as you could mange with no regard as to whether or not the information is useful only went to strengthen my opinion of you." "Par for the course for a Hatedom that enjoys "creatively" misinterpreting the comic, but when they try to pass it off as an actual occurrence, that's going too far." ""Uhh, whatever this thing is! I don't know, but it sucks!" That's the tone I get from a lot of the examples I've seen you add over time."]] The mess is about two thirds down the discussion page. (He expresses a similar opinion of me. His deductions get various crucial facts wrong, but I haven't been able to answer them, since doing so and then writing this message before he could reply would be a boophole move.)
Thing is, he's done valid edits on other pages and and added a perfectly reasonable answer to an unrelated matter at the top of the page. He can be reasonable when he's not in Defense Mode, so can we ban him from just Dominic Deegan and Dominic Deegan Discussion, or even get an admin to leave a message telling him to stay away? In any case, we can't have someone around who says things like "I fully expect you to delete the edits I'll be making, since it won't be what you want, however" without provocation. (He changed this when he expanded the comment. Unfortunately, he changed it to "I'll be attempting to do the observation some real justice beyond "this is what the Haters think!!1!" I fully expect you to delete it anyway, though.")
This all happened around the 8th of December: Data Vampires have cost me hours. It's still relevant, though, since he's true to his nick and prone to taking matters up again months apart. He previously showed up six months earlier, when he went on about the motives behind an edit of mine until I broke it down and explained how each part was an innocuous housekeeping task.
thatother1dude: I keep trying to add something to the Bleach WMG page, but even though the history and the preview say it worked, none of my edits show up on the actual page. What's wrong?
Jerrik: I think the page is getting too long. I messed around with it, and if you make your entry shorter or delete something else (although that might be kind of rude) you'll be able to add it. The page seems like it needs trimming anyhow.
thatother1dude: We can at least get rid of the non-joke ones that have been disproven.
Fast Eddie: Page is just too big. You guys should figure a split or some other way to reduce page length. Edited to add: You'll notice that Jerrik over-struck my edit here. Also, in the Bleach article. Not sure why that is happening.
Jerrik: Sorry, I didn't mean for that to happen. I don't know why it did that.
Foxx Park: My Spy Sweeper software quarantined my cookie for TV Tropes. But I forgot my password. How can i get a new Cookie? I Don't want to change my handle
Fast Eddie:I'll reset the account. That means you just Get Known again with the same handle.
Foxx Park: Thank you!
Sylvia Sybil: I wanted to start a series page for the book series The Edge, but that link is currently taken. I've temporarily saved my work under On The Edge, the title of the first book, but that won't work as a long term solution. How do we usually resolve it when two works have the same title? And since the movie The Edge came out thirteen years ago, has a one line description and four examples linked back to it, can I just take the link for the book series?
Micah: The standard solution to this problem is to use Namespaces. So your page would be at The Edge (markup is Literature/TheEdge); the other page would either stay in the main namespace (since it was here first) or get moved to The Edge (Film/TheEdge), with a disambiguation page put in the main namespace.
Sylvia Sybil: Thank you! I created a disambiguation page and relinked the film examples to the new link. One more question though: how do I delete the On The Edge page I created to hold the book series page temporarily? I guess I don't need to delete it at all but it seems messy to leave it up.
lebrel: List it on the cutlist page.
Micah: Alternately, just make it a redirect to your series page.
Sylvia Sybil: Thank you!
Seanette: Two questions:
- Any hope of a search-and-replace function in edit mode? Helps with a name that people consistently misspell, since correcting multiple instances one at a time gets kinda tedious.
- Do we still have an IRC channel?
Citizen: (1) Copy page contents into editor of your choice (Word, Notepad++, whatever). (2) Troper IRC Channel
Seanette: Must start using the editor option (should probably stick with Notepad to avoid text formatting strangeness), and thanks for the IRC info. I couldn't figure out where it was currently hiding (last I looked for it, it was mentioned either on the home page or in the Troperville menu).
CA Lieber: Saw a mistagged page — I don't remember what it was, I think it was a troper mistagged as an index — but can no longer fix it. What is the current mechanism, if any, for changing that?
Fast Eddie: Go to the page you want to fix. Look for the "Set Page Type" button on the Tools menu at the left. That's yer buddy.
CA Lieber: Thank you. Is there a page or forum I should be looking at to find out about these things as they happen rather than coming in here and griping?
Some New Guy: A user by the name of Tabris_Macbeth has made several troll-heavy posts concerning Nippon Ichi games, particularly Soul Nomad And The World Eaters. Normally, this wouldn't be much of an issue, but he's gone out of his way to call NIS fans part of a Fan Dumb. Should something be done?
Fast Eddie: Try letting him know in an edit reason that we're not about trolling. If that doesn't do it, we can put in an edit block.
westrim I'm sorry I'm late on this; January was a wild (read: laid off parent and classes starting) month. But on the topic of my ban, stated to be for edit warring (which I do not remember, but it's been a while and from a different perspective: was the oddness on the Moe Anthropomorphism and Ensemble Darkhorse pages part of what you were talking about? Because I thought the issue in both cases was lack of communication); is it possible to be reinstated? I've still been editing and reading occasionally through a proxy, but without my watchlist and other resources, and without the site knowing it was me (and thus, unable to judge my conduct.) If I were reinstated it would be easier on me and you could keep an eye on my conduct. At the very least, could the IP of my friends house (which I can provide if requested) be unbanned? I made a single forum post asking about the issue from their house, and now, they're locked out too.
Is this reasonable, or am I chasing chubacabras?
Triassicranger: Do unregistered IP addresses have access to use watchlists?
Fighteer: Not as far as I know. It wouldn't make sense anyway, since the watchlists are keyed to troper handles.
Zadia: I'm pretty sure that we had a page for the band The Dresden Dolls. Now it seems that we don't. Can someone please tell me if we had a page or not, and if we did, can someone please tell me where it's gone?
Fast Eddie: No record of having cut an article with 'Dresden' in it. Hallucination?:-)
Zadia: Looks like it. Thanks anyway.
TheUnknown I don't if this is the appropriate place for me to ask this question, but this is in regards to creating a new Article. See I found this Web Serial Novel called Arcana Magi and the thing is, the guy who wrote it, is only four chapters into the main story. On top of that, he also wrote a Short Story Trilogy that is set in an alternate timeline. So I don't if A) there is a minimum requirement of chapters to post an Article for Web Serial Novels, and B) I don't know if I should put the main story and the short story trilogy into one article or do like the Start Trek and Gundam Articles make invididual Articles for each story timeline. Any advice on how I should approach this?
Freezair For A Limited Time: Go ahead and make it. Since there probably won't be as many tropes, you can get away with putting them in one article, I think. Remember: The example for No Such Thing As Notability is a sprite comic with 7 strips, so limits on "length" are pretty tenuous here.
TheUnknown Thank you. I'm gonna give it a shot.
sithlordservo Which came first: The accursed, evil Darth Wiki or the wonderful, sweet Sugar Wiki?
Glowsquid: Darth Wiki.
Jordan: As kind of a joke, I made Midori No Hibi as a Sugar Wiki version of Parasyte, but I may have messed up. Not sure how to fix it, and I guess I should have asked permission before doing that. I'd appreciate some help fixing it.
Citizen: Don't do that. Removed the redirect.
Jordan: I apologize. Thanks for fixing that. I got the idea from a similar page for Welcome To The NHK, but I won't do that again without asking first. Thanks again.
Wild Knight: Quick question about alphabetizing protocol: Sometimes, people use potholes to make trope names relate a little more to the work. When potholing a trope this way (for example, potholing the "trope" Sexy Nuns to Naughty Nuns, like so: [[NaughtyNuns Sexy Nuns]]), do you alphabetize by the original trope name or the "new" name? Sorry if this isn't very clear, I'm not quite sure how to phrase it, but the aforementioned example is at Mass Effect if you want to check it out.
Madrugada: Personally, in that example, I'd get rid of the pothole altogether.
Fast Eddie: That consideration aside, you would alphabetize by the visible words.
Wild Knight: Okay, thanks.
Mullon: In the Cut List, how would I type in a review section?
Madrugada: You can't cutlist a review section. It's generated automatically when a page is tagged as "a work" or "a creator or person". If there's a particular review that you think should be cut, post a link to it and one of the mods or admins will take a look and decide.
Mullon: Nah, I was just thinking that Monster Clown having a review section seemed silly.
Ronka87: It was incorrectly labeled a "work" when should be a trope. Changed now. Good catch.
Yappydog: Is there an index for OEL Manga at all? Putting it in Manga alone seems likely to cause trouble, but Comic Books alone doesn't seem to quite get it right either. As such, several such articles conclude in a request for indexing. Suggestions?
blackcat You can suggest an index for this on YKTTW, listing the articles that ask for this index would help, so would a snappy title.
lebrel: I'd suggest having all manga listed in Manga, as its medium, and then in such other indexes as are applicable; an OEL Manga index would be quite welcome.
Yappydog: Right-o. Soon as I get some time, I'll start putting a list together. Snappy but clear titling is going to be harder, though...
lebrel: It's an index. Original English-Language Manga or OEL Manga or OEL Manga Index. Incidentally, the existing pages for OEL tnhat I can think of offhand: Dramacon, Maximum Ride, Amazing Agent Luna, The Dreaming, Dogby Walks Alone, Aoi House, and the manga version of MD Geist.
Yappydog: Thanks a lot for some excellent examples. YKTTW entry created: Permalink
Gemmifer: Why does the link for the fanfic recs for D Gray Man not show up on it's main entry?
Paul A: It's because the main entry is "D.Gray-Man" and the fanfic recs entry is "D Gray Man"; the main entry looks for and fails to find a fanfic recs entry with the same title as itself. To anticipate your next question, the reason it appears to work the other way around is that when the fanfic recs entry looks, it finds D Gray Man, which is actually a redirect.
Gemmifer: I see.
Paul A: In principle, you could fix it by making FanficRecs.ptitlej8ixspaskltm a redirect to FanficRecs.DGrayMan — but whether that would be a good idea, I'm not sure.
Mr Death: Can we come up with a standard policy for listing tropes, whether they should be either
- [Trope Name]: Blahblahblah
- [Trope Name] - Blahblahblah
- [Trope Name] (Blahblahblah)
Cuz I keep seeing whole pages worth being converted from one to the other, and it's just inconsistent all around.
Fighteer: There have been numerous forum threads about this. The only real rule is that the example formatting be consistent within the page. If it's been written with hyphens, then it's impolite to suddenly start using colons. If it's mixed, then generally someone will come along who feels strongly one way or the other and make all the examples consistent. Nothing to stress over.
Fast Eddie: Also see Example Indentation In Trope Lists.
Mr Death: Fair enough. I'm not really stressed over it, it just gets a little annoying when I'm checking the history and I have to scroll past the entire page twice to get to the other edits.
Jack Butler: What's the policy on Trope Titles that use derogatory racial/religious epithets? I mean, the trope itself is legitimate, but the Title the writer of the YKTTW is planning on using a slur as part of the title. What's the policy on that?
Fighteer: See Our Super-Strict Language Policy.
Jack Butler: Okey doke. I'll sit back and repeat the MST3K Mantra to myself and just not visit that page, then.
ninjacrat: Our lovably inept essay-service spammer is back as David11 94.248.84.156.
Fast Eddie: Block installed. Thanks for spotting it.
Some Sort Of Troper: Rōnin keeps launching and then not crafting the page. I asked and apparently he believes that you don't have to which ignores the fact that people generally don't do it themselves and it is possible that a launch could just drop off the bottom and be lost forever, people's contributions going with it. The fact is that some people just might not know about the launch list and nearly everybody thinks that the launcher is actually going to make the page. There's not really much point in just pressing the launch button and then not doing anything with the page. It just takes the page and then puts it somewhere harder to get to while preventing anyone from contributing to the YKTTW further. He gave me some happy-clappy bull about all our different roles o the wiki but I suspect there may be some dick swinging with trying to claim a trope and name it himself. Not a ban level muck up but it may be more effective if he got a more official or hive mind rebuke.
Fast Eddie: I took away the launch button for Ronin.
lebrel: So does this mean that his launches are up for grabs and we can make the corresponding pages?
Fast Eddie: I'd say so.
Unknown Troper: Requesting some moderation at The Salvation War page. We've got an Unknown repeatedly removing content that's been restored by no fewer than five other tropers (myself, another unknown, and three knowns). The Unknown is refusing to listen or to take the discussion to the talk page, and is continuing the edit war.
Madrugada: Requesting a wiki-edit ban on miru (70.134.86.225). (S)he started a thread
in the forums proposing that the Comics and Western Animation categories should be merged because anime and manga were, and despite quite a few people saying "No", has, as of January 23, declared "The project begins NOW!". There's been one change made, and repaired, so perhaps (s)he's thought better of it, but... Also made the page The Australian Eastern Western Trope War simply to snipe at Paul A and cast "an anonymous Troper (Miru) as a put-upon victin of an edit war.
Fast Eddie: Not sure I followed all that. However ... Madrugada wants block Madrugada gets block. My life is pretty simple.
Aminatep: How to right-align a piece of text?
Jack Butler: Goldfritha 64.148.25.34 has apparently decided to begin an edit war over No Hero to His Valet. He is the previously mentioned single objector. Is there any way to stop him from reverting the change continually?
Madrugada: Goldfritha was not the only objector. There were three objections to what you proposed before you made the change. You didn't really address any of them, cherry-picked off one which said "cutlist it"; responding that you didn't think it needed cutlisting, that rewriting it would suffice; then rewrote it.
Jack Butler: There were no objections to address until after the change was made, and I have done my best to address the objections since they were brought up. There was hardly any input received at all when I originally proposed the rewrite. All of the fuss started when people apparently "suddenly" realized I was serious and moved to object after I waited for input and got none.
I specifically stated my plan to move the examples that fit other tropes to those other tropes and rewrite No Hero to His Valet, asked for input from the tropers, and then waited for input for two weeks, during which time I got absolutely no response at all. I then asked for advice on how to proceed (see below), and then acted on that advice when it was given. While I was waiting for advice, I received input from Moocow, who stated that I was correct about Feet of Clay and No Hero to His Valet; from Known Unknown who apparently didn't understand my idea about the name, but did say I was correct about the nature of the trope and supported the split; from Fighteer, who said that it looked like it was "acting like a supertrope"; and from blackcat, who at first said that the description was "badly written" and "needs a lot of work", and suggested cutlisting No Hero to His Valet, but then later said he supported the rewrite when I defended the trope's existence. So I had two people agreeing that it needed to be split and rewritten, one person saying it needed cutlisting or else rewritten, and another whose comments I read as agreeing with the idea that No Hero to His Valet was overbroad. And then Fast Eddie said that if I've at least given people the chance to give input, and I still thought there was a problem, to go ahead with the rewrite. So I went ahead with the rewrite. And now, after the rewrite occurred, you guys are suddenly standing up and implying I did all of this under the table.
I'm not trying to be a butt-head here. I'm not trying to step on people's toes. But I do resent the implication that I was somehow sneaking around behind everyone's backs.
Wild Knight: IP address 189.244.18.197 has twice messed with the Tales Of The Abyss page by apparently letting their hate for Anise override all common sense. Both were easily reverted (they just changed the picture caption to something nonsensical and tossed in ridiculous amounts of natter), but it'd be nice if they could be cut off at the pass next time.
Fast Eddie: Edit ban installed for that page for that IP.
Wild Knight: Thank ye.
Glowsquid: Some guy called wit is vandalising
contributor pages and being a petty dick to other tropers.
Fast Eddie: Hard block installed.
Jack Butler: Procedural question. You've found a trope page that, in its own writeup, admits that its actually three separate tropes combined in one (the write-up actually mentions "Type One is This Other Trope, Type Two is This Second Trope, and Type Three is the trope most appropriate to the name..." and so on). You've posted something to the forums about splitting off the Type Ones and Twos to the appropriate already existing trope pages and rewriting the page so it reflects only the Type Threes, but the response to your posting is anemic at best. What do you do next if you still think the trope page needs fixing, but you don't want to break any rules doing it?
Fast Eddie: "Anemic" may mean nobody has an issue with it. As long as you've given out the notice that the change is coming and folks have had a chance to respond ... go for it.
Jack Butler: So far, only one person has expressed an objection. Otherwise, the idea has been met with a general attitude of "You know, you're right." So the rewrite's been done, the examples moved, and all is right with the world, I guess. Thanks, Eddie.
Triassicranger: Motion to block IP address 58.166.100.130 due to the following vandalism on Dethroning Moment of Suck : continual adding of justifying edits (which is forbidden) and deleting entries solely because he disagrees with them (which is also forbidden) and rude behaviour.
Fast Eddie: Personal attacks are enough.
McJeff: We've got a Bluenose Bowdlerizer troper, Tim Likes Music. He's been active on Hatedom, I haven't seen him anywhere else yet, but this needs to be dealt with.
Fast Eddie: Didn't see a pattern, when looking at edit history. Just the one thing in Hatedom.
Triassicranger: I noticed something funny yesterday (Sunday). Someone (I think it was Doom Tay) had made an edit to the Wild Mass Guessing page on Arthur. When I went to check the history, I couldn't see his edit, just a list of previous edits. Now today (Monday) I notice Medicus has made an edit, and I can't view Doom Tay's. What's going on?
Jordan: If I wanted to get an avatar image and caption to use in the Forums, how would I go about doing that?
blackcat: go to the forum page here hit the edit your profile button and follow the directions.
JET73L: How do you redirect to a page in a namespace? (Which reminds me: Could someone with the proper authority please remove the freakin' redirect from Main/Serenity to Firefly so the as yet nonexistent Manga/Serenity and, if necessary, Film/Serenity pages can get more love?) I know it can be done, because of all the redirects to the Darth Wiki and Sugar Wiki pages, but cannot figure out or find instructions for how to get a redirect to accept a location with a / in.
Fighteer: You do it like this: \[\[redirect:\{\{Film/Serenity\}\}\]\] (ugh, why aren't the escapes working? Just remove the backslashes. And to remove the existing redirect, click the link to the page (Serenity), then when you get redirected, there's a link to edit the source page above the Alt Titles bar on the destination. I could remove it myself but not until the new pages are launched.
JET73L: Oh, so Redirects just don't show up in previews. I thought I was doing something completely wrong. Thank you!
Wascally Wabbit: Okay this is just wierd. Big Damn Movie now apparently acts as a random page button when accessed through a google search. Why? How? And how do we get the page back?
Fighteer: Possibly an accidental redirect? Courtesy link to the search in question. The Google spider should fix it eventually.
Mr Death: Some jackass at 165.155.208.90
has been vandalizing pages. Among other things, he inserted random gibberish into Shrek and a link to the non-existent trope "Stupid Fucking Christians".
shadowgirl13_chaos: Help! I'm trying to bluelink "squeeing" to Squee, but it won't link! How do you do that? I'm (obviosly) a newer Troper.
Paul A: "{{squee}}ing" ought to do it: squeeing
Fighteer: See Text-Formatting Rules.
Tannhaeuser: What happened to A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing? Cut for some reason?
Paul A: Recent Cuts page says:
- SomeGuy: Bare-bones page with one example, two if we're stretching it. Has made no real progress in the two months it has been around. There is a Trope Repair topic requesting clarification on the definition. This is a perfect case study of something that should have been put through YKTTW first but for some unknown reason was not.
Tann: Ah, thanks. Bone-headed of me not to have looked on Recent Cuts, but so agree with the sentiment expressed, that I am glad my bone-headedness gave it further publicity.
Cryptic Mirror: I'm not sure why, but for some reason the bottom of my contributor's page has acquired some sort of index link to Ranma 1/2 and the Terminator fanfic page. Does anyone know why?
Fighteer: The Fanfic Recs pages are listed as indexes, but they have contributor names in them under bullets, which causes the indexer to pick them up. See How Indexing Works for more info. Those pages need a major rework.
Okay, fixed it by taking the Index flag off of FanficRecs/Terminator.
Cryptic Mirror: Thanks. I just can't get to grips with the new indexing thingie at all.
CA Lieber: Were a bunch of threads removed from the forum recently? The discussion for the revision of Informed Judaism seems to be gone.
Fast Eddie: Yup.
New items at the top, please. last batch removed 1 Jan 10
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