Five-Man Band cleanup

okay, i took that line out

This is the best I've ever seen it.

It cleaves much closer to the core idea in its variants I still think the variants vary too much. We need to be clear on what this trope is to prevent decay. For instance, that "passive damsel" line sounds it could lead to decay, or rather, assist the current decay. Anything that sounds like The Load or Designated Victim cannot be in the description for this trope. Also, do we really need an Action Girl variant? I like the idea of a Tough Love and/or Apron Matron style Chick but calling anything like "the Action Girl style chick" sounds like "this Chick isn't useless because she is this particular variant". In other words, the same problem from the

okay, i changed some of the language to get away from that.

The main difference is better captured by Spirited Young Lady, rather than Action Girl. Still very feminine, but not passive at all. (with no value judgement on passive-neither a straight good or bad thing)

The distinction between the types are how they still pull off representing femininity in the story or group dynamics, but play differently with how much they embrace or defy traditional, patriarchal, gender roles.

So keeping true to the trope as a device (The Chick= "the girl"), keeping up with the evolving nuance of identity politics ("the girl" can mean a lot of different things), while getting away from the girl=useless.

edited 1st Dec '16 5:02:34 AM by acrobox

It is better still but retains the same fundamental problems.

1. The Chick is not "the girl". The Smurfette Principle is "the girl".
2. The Chick is not the Damsel in Distress or Designated Victim. That might happen but is not inherent to the trope.
3. The Chick is not The Load. Calling one of the variants "damsel" is basically calling them The Load. It amounts to the same thing.
4. The Chick is not a macguffin. That is also not part of the trope. We have other tropes for that. We don't need variants for that.

We cannot allow any wriggle room on the misuse because that will impend clean up and encourage more misuse.

Why are we discussing changes anyway? It is just a matter of standardization? I'm fine with the trope page staying exactly the way it is now because it does not have any of the problems of the sandbox.

Thank you. I've said this repeatedly, but people don't seem to believe it.

that's all in there tho. no where does the trope contradict anything you guys just said. I agree.

Yes, it's all in there. And so are a lot of other variations that don't apply to The Chick as a member of the Five-Man Band. And that's going to cause confusion and misuse because that's the primary use for that trope. The current write-up is short, concise and clear. The longer and more complicated the definition gets, the more likely misuse becomes in situations like this.

edited 1st Dec '16 8:21:33 PM by Madrugada

my observation is that The Chick is already the trope most subject to misuse, because it doesn't elaborate clearly on how far you can stretch it, and how the trope works in Non Five-Man Band contexts.

again i didn't make the sandbox unilaterally, everytime someone submitted an instance of Chick misuse for about the past year i've asked for feedback from this forum (that is dedicated to determining if the example is okay or misuse) on the sandbox.

The sandbox as it is now, reflects the implicit rules this forum has been judging questions on.

As this forum is likely going to continue, I don't see how a yes longer but clearer list of the rules this forum typically uses would hurt instead of having the "concise" rules just be in our heads.

EDIT: Also i apologize for only putting one aspect in my previous post instead of elaborating on the trope as a whole, which may have played a role in setting off this firestorm. That one aspect (The Chick's nuanced relationship with Smurfette Principle - or being "the girl" of the team) doesn't trump all other aspects of the trope combined.

edited 3rd Dec '16 7:43:46 PM by acrobox

Let's all stop arguing about it one way or the other and go back to cleaning up the Five Man Band.

Would this qualify as a Five Bad Band?

• The Magnificent Seven (2016)
  • Big Bad: Bartholomew Bogue, who seeks to run Rose Creek into the ground.
  • The Dragon: McCann, Bogue's right-hand man.
  • Evil Genius: The gatling gunners, who operate Bogue's secret weapon, a Gatling gun, which threatens to turn the battle into a Curb-Stomp Battle until it is destroyed.
  • The Brute: Denali, a silent and brutal Comanche Professional Killer.
  • Dark Chick: Rose Creek's Sheriff, a Dirty Cop on Bogue's payroll and the least respected, getting subjected to Shoot the Messenger after the Seven slaughter the thugs stationed in Rose Creek.

edited 8th Dec '16 8:29:19 AM by k410ren

It looks perfect except for the Dark Chick. That sounds like "The chick is useless" misuse. He sounds like a Butt-Monkey.

Indeed. The Dark Chick still needs to be comparable to The Chick in the 5MB: the emotional heart of the team.

It was kinda like the one who didn't fit in and wasn't part of the inner circle as a Dirty Cop who is a loose cannon. He is part of the takeover alongside McCann, spends the first shootout hiding under a set of boards, sent back by Chisolm with a message and is killed by Bogue when he returns. Pretty much, he's a Dirty Coward toady during his portions of the film.

edited 8th Dec '16 11:46:35 AM by k410ren

Evil Genius also looks like a shoehorn. Unnamed multiple characters don't qualify just because they do "technical stuff".

I'm getting really puzzled by this, honestly. It doesn't have the definitional problems that Dark Chick does.

Well, for the definition for Evil Genius from the Five Bad Band page, it has this: "Operates the weapons or acts as Mission Control for the others. Often essential to the evil scheme; their screwing up could mean the entire thing falls apart."

The Gatling gunners (who act as one person apart from the guy who allows Faraday One Last Smoke) are operating the most powerful weapon at the time. The heroes can't do much to overcome Bogue until the Gatling gun is destroyed and three of the Seven are killed in the effort to take it down. Once it is destroyed, Bogue has a massive Villainous Breakdown.

Regarding the corrupt Sheriff, he's the outsider among Bogue's group and regarded as Cannon Fodder (which he becomes thanks to a You Have Failed Me from Bogue).

edited 8th Dec '16 2:02:34 PM by k410ren

Then it's not a Five Bad Band on two counts: no Dark Chick and no Evil Genius. Cut it.

I found this entry on the Metal Gear page which I think deserves to be cut.

Can a Five-Man Band consist of four girls and a guy, instead of four guys and a girl?

I came across this entry on a Tales of Bleach: Unreal Society (by accident, I don't typically read fanfic pages).

• Five-Man Band: Ratatosk's Rangers is one of these. It's explicitly stated by the author at the start of Blades of Destiny. Marta is The Hero, Lavirna is The Lancer, Serina is The Chick, Kiku is The Big Girl and Rachel is The Smart Girl. Emil the only male member is the Sixth Ranger.

Is this an example?

Also, having a quick flick through the namespace for works I know (since I'm there now), there's another one on this page (also four girls and a guy, but with the added problem of implying The Heart role is Ruby, not Blake): XCOM: RWBY Within

• Five-Man Band: The original main members of Strike Eight:
  • The Leader: Ruby. Starting off as Headstrong and Charismatic, later combines all four types, inspiring the team and coming up with tactics.
  • The Lancer: Weiss. In addition to their contrasting personalities, she takes the role of Assault, fighting in close range as opposed to Sniper-trained Ruby.
  • The Big Gal: Yang. Thanks to Rocketeer training, she wields the biggest firepower on the team, and is probably the most fight-happy of them.
  • The Smart Guy: Vance. The only veteran member of team, he helps girls in dealing with new reality and supports them from range in combat.
  • The Chick: Blake. As a Scout, she specializes more in recon and support than direct combat.

edited 8th Dec '16 5:20:03 PM by Wyldchyld

The first one is a fail. The Hero is no longer in the band, the sixth ranger neither. Just because the author says they count doesn't make it true. We're here because the trope has a wide spread and long term problem with misuse, after all.

The second one is better, including The Chick because it doesn't read as "useless" or "the only girl" but I'm still getting vibes of the former. As though recon and support was less important than direct combat. Also, it's missing The Heart aspect. I'm torn. What does everyone else think?

Not enough information to establish that Blake meets the The Heart aspect. Seems like The Chick is being misused for "useless woman", so I'd say cut.

Also, even if we were to accept a gender inversion of 5MB, I think we should require that The Chick be a guy! Otherwise, it's not a proper gender inversion (and very probably not intended as one).

Metal Gear:

MGS 1: ... actually pretty good, except for a few things. Psycho Mantis isn't really an Evil Genius. He has psychic powers but he's not in any sort of planning/technical role. And Decoy Octopus as the Sixth Ranger doesn't work for a bunch of reasons (not part of the band, he didn't join any later, etc).

MGS 2: I can accept it, but just lose Olga. She's not even part of Dead Cell.

MGS 3: Huge shoehorn. Not even going to bother going into why because it's so unrelated.

MGS 4: How is "stealth expert" the same as "Evil Genius"? And how is "ANGRY" an explanation for Dark Chick?!?

MGSR: Again, shoehorning Evil Genius. Why is this so hard?!?

MGS 5: Well, it's just wrong. Huey would be the Evil Genius. He joins Snake before Ocelot ever did, how could he be the Sixth Ranger? So remove Eli, move Huey to Evil Genius, and Ocelot to The Brute and it might work... but I'm not sure how I feel about Ocelot being The Brute.

Except there's one prominent example of a gender inverted FMB w/o a male Chick and thats Sailor Moon + Inne Senshi.

I haven't played 2, but I'll take your word that Dead Cell works and keep it. The rest are just forced.

Thanks for the response btw.